We need to be more tolerant of pro-life Dems

[rockydem]

If they arrive at their viewpoint honestly, there's nothing wrong with it. If they don't scapegoat, let them be.

I can mentally see how one could be pro-life. If you really think a fetus in a human you'd feel strongly about it. It's a question of philosophy and science. Instead of attacking them, try and convert them.

[thoughtanarchist]

1. no need to "convert"...

you don't have to be a freethinker to appreciate the seperation of church and state...

[rockydem]

3. you could be pro-life without being religious

I'm sure there's people like that out there.

[thoughtanarchist]

11. You can be pro-life and also respect the reproductive rights of others...

eom

[rabid_nerd]

35. I am Pro-Life and agnostic

nt

[rockydem]

69. Yep - I know there are lots of you out there

On what basis did you become pro-life?

[Not_Giving_Up]

2. My parents are pro-life dems

They're fundies who are too broke to vote repuke!

[Downtown Hound]

4. Fair enough

My position towards abortion has always been, if you're against it, fine. But don't enforce that belief on others through the rule of law and the threat of imprisonment. There's nothing wrong with being personally opposed to it, as long as you respect the beliefs of others.

[jvdassam]

47. OK so how do you reconcile public funding?

I agree with your point of view. So let me ask you this. Isn't taking someone's tax money to fund abortions through public employee health plans and using public funds to subside family planning agencies who perform abortion services imposing the pro-choice position on other people? I'm just asking, because this is what I find hard to reconcile. I think a woman has a right to choose, but I don't think society has a right to confiscate my money to pay for someone else's abortion, regardless of financial need.

[Downtown Hound]

81. Sorry, but tough luck

I have to pay taxes for all kinds of things I don't agree with. The prison system, the Iraq War, corporate welfare. Abortion is a legally recognized medical procedure. I'm not sympathetic to anyone who complains about their taxes going towards it.

[Djinn]

102. take away public funding

and all that'll do is mean only the rich can afford to abort - everyone else will then use up tax money being treated for septicemia, hemorrhagic shock, pelvic abscess and a host of other problems (often lethal) associated with illegal abortion.

Society doesn't "confiscate" your money anymore than it "confiscates" mine to pay for educating or immunising other people's children, or providing for public housing that I don't use, or bombing countries I have no problem with.

[Laelth]

5. You mean like Harry Reid?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1441989

What's your point? :)

-Laelth

[rockydem]

7. I read some people writing him off on the basis of that issue

It pissed me off, I thought it was narrow and provincial. It inspired this thread.

[Crowdance]

46. So you arrived at your viewpoint "honestly, (so) there's nothing....

wrong with it." But opinions differing from yours are "narrow and provincial." Interesting how THAT works.

[ieoeja]

68. I'd write him off for strategy.

We replaced an opposition leader from a state which supported the President with an opposition leader from a state which supported the President. Daschle would still be in the Senate if he hadn't had to lead the opposition against the Republicans. Democrats just gave Reid the kiss of death.

[DireStrike]

6. "If they arrive at their viewpoint honestly"

And where are these people? I've never met one. All I ever hear is the same old "Did you know 300 million babies die every year?" that makes it sound like every single one of them is reading "Bigotry and Ignorance Weekly."

Nobody wants to have a serious debate. They want to make noise. We always try to be nice, they make more noise, and we lose.

[rockydem]

8. I'm talking pro-life Dems here - not radical doctor killing Operation

Rescue types.

Keep things in perspective.

[DireStrike]

13. Ah, ok.

[MemphisTiger]

12. I'm right here

[rabid_nerd]

36. Hi, how ya doing?

Nice to meet you...

[Malva Zebrina]

9. Honestly

I think it needs to be the other way around, Rockydem

So called "pro-life" people are against choice. If they are not against choice, but continue to use the "pro-life" label and apply it to themself and others in their community, then they are not being honest.

Those are people who enjoy living in a democracy, a democracy where separation of church and state is a cherished, historical precept(or used to be) and where women have a right, under the law, to the total ownership of the their own body, yet these citizens, seek to upturn that very democracy and law which they have enjoyed .

Instead they need to drop the pro-life schtick, and just say they are pro-choice and if they do not want or approve of abortion, then they have the choice not to have one.

[rockydem]

14. Look - if you think a fetus is a human you see it as murder

You'd try and restrict it too if you were in their shoes. Instead of attacking them and telling them to be more like you - try and convert them with arguments based on philosophy and science. Some compromise is probably necessary anyway - where there are restrictions in the latter stages, but early on their is none.

[ThorsHammer]

17. Good points

I personally do believe it is a life and thus wrong, but can see how those on the pro-choice side who see it as just a fetus can also have a legitimate argument as well. There is no perfect solution that will please everyone, but I do think that adressing the larger issues can please most people (the far right won't ever be happy). Comprehensive family planning, good sex ed programs, making contraception easily available, etc would almost certainly decrease the number greatly, thus pleasing most pro-lifers. At the same time, those on the pro-choice side aren't caving in their beliefs either, and the women themselves are spared from making a difficult decision. I don't think there is any solution that pleases everyone, but something like this would do the most good without requiring either side to give up their beliefs. I do think programs like this could get the more moderate pro-life people to vote democrat (FWIW, I voted K/E).

On a broader scale,I would also like to see issues like healthcare, the economy, education, etc. adressed. These also have a large impact on abortions (Clinton-Bush comparison), and are areas where the Democrats can attack the GOP big time. I think the Democratic party could make great strides on these issues with the many moderate pro-life voters who are truly pro life and not just pro birth.

[rockydem]

30. I agree with all that

[thoughtanarchist]

21. vegans believe meat is murder...

should we embrace a policy of mandatory vegatarianism enforcable with a constitutional ammendment?

[rockydem]

24. no - and it's not an issue that is dividing the country and harming

our party...

[thoughtanarchist]

31. Thank goodness we still can still have steaks then...

I'd sooner consider that it's the framing and media coverage of the issue that's dividing our country...in 30 years the issue hasn't "harmed" our party... how is it now?

[jvdassam]

51. 30 Years Ago No Sonigrams

Public opinion polls have shown that since the advent of sonigram technology, attitudes about abortion have shifted dramatically, especially among women. That is what is different. It's the same effect we would hope for if they started televising capital punishment.

[Dhalgren]

25. If you view a woman as a full-fledged citizen,

then you see it as none of your business. It is a medical decision made by a woman in consultation with her doctor, period.

[rockydem]

28. I see your viewpoint

Can't you see theirs? Is it really that crazy to think that a fetus has at least some humanity to it, particularly in the latter stages? Is that really so fucking crazy?

[Dhalgren]

37. It absolutely has nothing to do with the fetus.

It is a citizen making a personal, private, medical decision on her own. The only way to curb a woman's right to self-determination is to make her a second-class citizen. I will never be in favor of that and I don't see how you could have a political party where these two opposing view points were present. Just my take on it...

[rockydem]

40. I'm asking you to use a bit of imagination

and see how it's possible to see humanity in a fetus. That is not such a crazy thing.

[Dhalgren]

45. I am not talking imagination, here, I am talking citizenship.

Of course you can see "humanity" in a fetus. Anyone can "see" pretty much whatever they want to. Here, though, we aren't talking mythology or feelings or personal preferences - here we are talking about women being fully equal within our political and national arenas. This is not about what you or I might "imagine", but about how a woman is to be treated within her own country, right here and right now. I am not saying that these things cannot be debated, but to ask that the disenfranchisement of women be considered as a viable political option within the Democratic party is asking too much.

[rockydem]

50. it's not the 'disenfranchisement of women' to engage on this issue

to go beyond the slogans and propagnda...

[Dhalgren]

55. Define "engage on this issue". If that includes

any kind of compromise on women's rights, then it isn't sloganeering, it basic values.

[rockydem]

59. Some resticions in the latter stages is reasonable

Anyway that's where we are headed, like it or not. Personally I think it's just fine.

In the latter stages I firmly believe in the life and health of the mother being the paramount concern. But at some point you shouldn't be able to just abort on a whim.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. News Flash: You Can't.

All this hyperbole about "Late Term Abortion" is a flying crock of shit, frankly. If you listen to right-wing radio, of course, you would think there are legions of women staying pregnant for eight months and then deciding they "look fat" and getting abortions. Not only is that attitude patronizing and offensive, it also bears no f*cking relation to reality. Of course, right-wing propagandists would also have you believe that schools are "banning the declaration of independence" and that there are legions of welfare recipients who take limos to cash their checks, and laugh as they eat bon-bons and drink expensive vodka bought with the paychecks of hard-working white male docker cubicle drones.

I understand what you're saying. But unfortunately you've bought into the hype.

The reality is, most abortions-- the overwhelming majority- are performed in the first trimester. If you don't think that's what this is about, you're sadly mistaken. Furthermore, I know specifically a woman who didn't think she could get pregnant because she was breast feeding, discovered she was, and at four and a half months couldn't find anyone who would give her an abortion, because the pregnancy was so far along. This was almost 20 years ago, but I'm sure it hasn't changed.

Beyond that, you would do well to read what the pro-life crowd says amongst themselves. Sure, when they're talking to the media, they act like it's about stopping "late term abortion". Amongst themselves it's a different story. Criminalize all abortion, then ban the birth control pill. Most of them would like to not only do away with Roe v. Wade, but also Griswold v. Connecticut, the decision that established the pesky "right to privacy" they hate so much, and -not coincidentally- asserted that married couples have the right to use birth control.

If you don't see that's where this is headed, you've got blinders on.

[Djinn]

103. not crazy just not supported by evidence

as opposed to the woman who absolutely embodies humanity.

It's simple - would you force a woman to give birth like a farm animal - yes or no?

I can respect pro-lifers if they are also against capital punishment and are against abortion EVEN in the case of rape/incest, I've only ever met one - strangely a fetus isn't so "human" if it's biological father is a criminal? surely life is life and we don't "kill" the "children" of rapists?

I can respect their opinions without ever wanting to agree with them though.

[Malva Zebrina]

63. No, I am not attacking them

I present my point of view and give them every right to present theirs.

I am a proud liberal and believe that each and every person has a right to their choice re abortion,and only they can make that decision.

I do not think it my right or anybody else's right to make it for them. Further it is a legal right, BTW, and a personal decision to be made individually, WITHOUT the meddling of some one else in their affairs, their family and their body which belongs to them exclusively.

That is my point of view and sorry if it goes against the "pro-lifers"
(although my point of view can rightfully be called "pro-life" also and that is the fallacy of the label "pro-life" when it is used to describe those who are really anti-choice.)

[Dora]

15. Thanks for making the distinction

I couldn't agree with you more. Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean advocating for abortion, whereas pro-life doesn't allow for tolerating the pro-choice perspective.

[greenohio]

10. Should we "embrace pro-life" Dems?

Like some have called for?

[secedeeconomically]

16. Why stop there?

Why not be more tolerant of the Pro-slavery Dems? Or the Pro-pollution Dems. Or Pro-Gay Bashing Dems. According you, if one can make an honest argument for his/her belief than she should just hug them and guy them a coffee.

[rockydem]

20. If you see a fetus as a human it's murder to you

I can see how someone could think that. That's a lot different than thinking slavery is a swell thing.

Keep things in perspective.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. with that argument: if you see homosexuality as a sin against god

you can throw said sinner in prison....

[rockydem]

38. You could be pro-life without being religious at all

There are those like that - more than you know.

Throwing someone in prison for being a homosexual is not the same thing as seeing humanity in a fetus. One is erring on the side of giving more rights and life - the other is just the opposite.

All I'm saying is that you can be a good person (and not a bigoted type) and be pro-life. It is possible. Those are the ones that are reachable. I'm not talking about Operation Rescue types.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. do you personally know an atheist who is anti-choice?

[rockydem]

54. In college, yes

There are atheist republicans who are pro-life.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. are you sure they are genuinely atheist though?

with no belief in souls and after lives and a decent understanding of god adn religion?

[rockydem]

61. that's what they claimed to be

athiests but they were still pro-life...

[countryjake]

44. Exactly how is throwing a woman in prison...

for ending her pregnancy in the eighth month seen as "erring on the side of giving more rights and life"? Or better yet, how is imprisoning a woman who wishes not to give birth, until said pregnancy comes to term, seen as anything even vaguely civil?

How does something that is not even born supercede the legal rights of any citizen?

[rockydem]

53. Because they see it as a human being

Right or wrong that's how they see it. Once again, as others on here do, you automatically use the frame of the far right Operation Rescue types. I'm talking about engaging the reasonable pro-lifers, and there are more than you know.

[countryjake]

90. Ashcroft & his ilk do NOT see any of us as "human beings"!

What "frame of the far right Operation Rescue types" am I using? I really don't see anything reasonable about calling out the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department (which is what happened no sooner than our prez signed his little ban on partial birth abortions last year...wretch, even typing that invented term makes me cringe) & sending federal police out to collect, investigate, & INFRINGE on the CIVIL RIGHTS of people, all across this nation.

Do you deny that happened? It wasn't the fanatical right-to-lifers doing it...it was an ARM of the JUSTICE DEPARTMENT for crying out loud!

Caving to concocted & unwarranted rights of "fetuses" & demanding that their "citizenship" needs to be protected BY LAW ENFORCEMENT from "whimsical" choices of women, their doctors, & health clinics is, in fact, what is dehumanizing. Collecting medical records & invading the privacy of women all over this nation has nothing, whatsoever, to do with seeing pweshus widdle babees inside someone's uterus. It does represent an enormous backward step for women's rights in this country; it does mean that putting a condition, any condition, on the inherent human rights of a woman to control her own reproduction will open the door to persecution, invasion of privacy, & incarceration if OUR GOVERNMENT sees fit.

You are promoting hype, & just like all those reasonable pro-lifers, you have been suckered into thinking this has something to do with babies.

[secedeeconomically]

99. Its likes saying we should engage the reasonable racist

I'm not exactly sure what your underling point is, but your argument refuses to consider the results of holding that specific viewpoint (the Pro-life position). One cannot defend that viewpoint without defending the results of that viewpoint. That being said, if you make abortion illegal, does the mother get prosecuted is she chooses to abort? Will she be incarcerated for the term of the pregnancy if she voices her desire to abort? You cannot make something illegal without paying some type of consequence for that crime. So the next time someone tell you they are pro-life, ask them to fully extrapolate their logic until they realize the consequences of their opinion. And then, you will see how reasonable they really are.

[countryjake]

101. Exactly...beliefs are personal...consequences are too real...

And what I have found is that if you actually engage those "reasonable pro-choice/pro-life" people in honest discussion about the options & consequences of involving our government with making medical decisions or actually judging women on their personal reproductive choices, invariably, most of the truly reasonable ones will concede that it is a personal choice, not to be intruded on by any government.

That's the whole problem this late-term business has created, out of thin air. It's an attempt to strip the "Pro-choice" people of any conscience, to make it appear unpopular enough to gain the advantage for the "Pro-Life" mongerers & thus achieve their ultimate objective which is banning all abortion. Sneaky, yet very effective!


For Rockydem, if you ever decide to respond:

Planned Parenthood Fighting For Our Right to Medical Privacy

[Djinn]

104. and you can beleive in homosexuality being "criminal"

without being religious - you can support slavery without being religious, that's NOT the point.

[secedeeconomically]

34. WRONG

That’s the same arguments made by slave owners, who considered slaves to be 3/5 (or something like that) of a white man. Besides just because they "see a fetus as a human" doesn’t make them right. And to encourage that is wrong.

[saracat]

92. She has a perfectly good perpective.

Their are other ways of dying than death and slvery is another way of dying.

[The Flaming Red Head]

97. And then radical doctor killing types become your movement's martyrs.

If you view abortion as murder.

[Seldona]

41. Could not disagree more.

In my personal life I would not favor abortion as birth control. Although in the case of my wife's health I would support it without question.

See I do believe that at the least, a fetus is bound to become a 'human life'. It certainly isn't going to become a tree. Or a rock.

Where I divide ideologically with the supposed 'right to lifers' is in their assertion of the 'sanctity of life'.

There is no such thing.

These are the same people who scream 'Kill em all and let god sort em out'.

The same people you will see at a prison during an execution holding signs that say 'Fry him!'.

Or the 'God Hates Fags' types who glorify homosexuals being dragged behind cars.

In fact I would venture to say that for every hour of my life, perhaps even every minute, someone somewhere is killing someone else.

Where the hell is this 'sanctity' they speak of?

My main problem with the fundies is their total and complete hypocrisy concerning their own damn ideology!

I can identify with not wanting to abort a fetus, but who the hell am I to tell another human being what to believe? THAT is what makes me a progressive in my opinion.

So you see there are people who in their personal life would not favor abortion except in dire circumstances, yet totally support whatever it is someone else believes.

[Dhalgren]

18. There is a basic dividing point where there is no discussion -

The life and health of the mother. Any "pro-lifer" who says that no concern for the life of the mother should enter the equation, then I will no longer discuss it with them, I don't care what their political persuasion is otherwise.

If a person agrees that the life and health of the mother would make an abortion acceptable, then they must be asked if a woman has all of the same rights as a man. If the answer is "yes", then a woman has the right to private and confidential medical care. If she does, then all abortions are acceptable, because no one would ever know, one way or the other, the reason for the abortion - it would be confidential between a woman and her doctor. That is really the end of the discussion; if a woman has the right to confidentiality with her doctor and abortions are acceptable when the life or health of the woman is a factor, then all abortions are acceptable - move on, nothing more to talk about.

[rockydem]

23. I agree

[thoughtanarchist]

86. That was compelling...

:yourock:

[Cornus]

19. They need to be more tolerant...

...of those who are not pro-birth. I refuse to refer to them as pro-life any more because many of the ones I've met support the death penalty and support this war. They couldn't care less what happens to the fetus after it's born.

[ThorsHammer]

26. There are some of us pro life (not just pro birth) folks still around (nt)

[Cornus]

27. Unfortunately, very few, from my experience (nt)

[TaleWgnDg]

22. Lookit. Roe v. Wade is about choice.

Lookit. Roe v. Wade is about choice. Roe v. Wade allows free choice. No government intrusion during the first trimester.

Roe v. Wade doesn't shove abortion down anyone's throat. Unlike anti-abortionists who do want our government to order no more abortions for anyone! Unlike anti-abortionists who want the government ordering women to carry to full term -- to become unwilling breeders. Anti-abortionists who mix their religion and so-called "moral values" upon others. And some of whom who proselytize their religious views upon others.

Again, Roe v. Wade is choice whether one choses to have an abortion or does not chose to have an abortion, period. Thus, Roe v. Wade embraces those who want to have abortions and those who chose not to have abortions. However, anti-abortionists want to control other peoples bodies in addition to their own. And, that's what all the hand-wringing is all about, people who want to push their own religion and/or so-called "moral values" upon unwilling others.



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. but isnt that what pro-choice is.....

tolerant if you dont want to abort your fetus. adn tolerant if you are?

[GOPBasher]

32. I agree with you.

In the red states, we should run pro-lifers.

[GoBlue]

42. Define human please.

Would you define a human egg as human? A human sperm? A fertilized human egg? An human embryo? A human fetus? A human child? Where does one honestly draw the line? Is it personal philosophy or biology?

I personally draw the line at child. I personally believe that every woman has the right to create, or NOT, create a child.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Save the preconceived babies!!!!

http://www.geocities.com/preconceivedbabies/

[Loki]

43. I'm as tolerant of them as they are of me.

but, I will not compromise my belief in legal abortions when they won't make exceptions for the life of the mother. I was a nurse for 18 years, and I have seen the effects of making young women bear children. Try listening to a 12 year old child crying for her mother while she is going through labor pains, or a 14 year old who has been impregnated by her father. There is no such thing as a partial birth abortion. The only time I saw anything remotely like it was when a 16 year old came into the hospital in labor. She had never been to a doctor and had kept her pregnancy from her parents. The baby became stuck in the birth canal and she started hemorrhaging. The doctor on call made the decision to save her life at the expense of the child, but it was too late and they both died. Her parents found out when they came to the hospital. These are the kind of decisions that the religous Taliban want to take away from physicians and women. I have come to the harsh understanding that the religious right isn't interested in saving the "fetus" from abortion. After they have successfully taken all the safety nets away from the poor in this country, these "saved" children will be fodder for the military where they can be sent to endless wars and die young, or become institutionalized in our prison systems and become food for the growing state executioners. They get much more enjoyment killing you that way.

[Dhalgren]

49. Good post, Loki.

Thank you for your perspective. Your experience carries weight. I think that sometimes you simply cannot compromise on a core value - and a woman's full citizenship is such a "core value" - and if that means conflict with those who oppose women's rights, well, to coin a phrase, "Bring 'em on!"

[rockydem]

56. that's the compromise that is necessary

I totally agree.

[Malva Zebrina]

66. and I was a nurse for thirty five years

much time spent in operating rooms BEFORE Roe vs Wade and I can tell you that I saw many an abortion billed as a D&C. This was a very rich community, one , if not the richest in the country at that time, full of socialites and the "u

pper crust" Those young women could afford it, under a doctors care in a clean and safe environment, although the stealth must have affected them in some way.

I also saw a few cases of sepsis when women either had a medical student try to abort them, or tried some ersatz method on themself.

That is why I am for choice, and consider myself an advocate for the life of women and against forced pregnancy.

[ThorsHammer]

58. Pro life (not pro birth), and I completely agree on the mother's life part

[donheld]

48. I have no problem with anybody who is prolife

as long as allow women to be pro-choice

[Warren DeMontague]

52. You mean if someone doesn't want to have an abortion, we shouldnt make em?

Wow. I'm in complete agreement.

However, if you mean by "pro-life" someone who is dedicated to the principle of using law and the criminal justice system to tell other women what to do with their bodies, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how that gels with people who are "pro-choice". Not "pro-abortion", mind you, but "pro-choice".

[Jesus H. Christ]

62. We need to be more tolerant of creation science.

Also: military intelligence and jumbo shrimp.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Ironically, that was the flame war du jour a month or so ago at GD. (nt)

[ieoeja]

64. It is all about taxes.

To sum up the opinions of myself and every other member of my family:

Me: I want to keep abortion legal.
Them: They want to keep abortion legal.

Me: I want it included with government medical benefits.
Them: They want it excluded from government medical benefits.

Me: Abortion is just another medical procedure.
Them: Abortion is immoral.

The last has nothing to do with politics. So the only sticking point is the middle one. As I am fairly certain the government has no program that pays for abortions now, I am willing to call a cease-fire. Let's put this issue behind us and move onto something important.

Like guns! I'll keep my stinking hands off your body, if you keep your lousy hands off my guns. And, yeah, this DOES include semi-automatic firearms with flash suppressors and removable 30 round ammo clips. Why? Because you don't know how to use it. Here, let me show you how to hold...

[saracat]

91. Sorry. There isn't anything more important to me. I will not "move on"

I want my personhood to be total. It will never be until I have equal rights as a male over my own body. There are no medical procedures for men that would be denied as immoral!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. I'm not intolerant of the Pro-preggers, it's their desire to enslave women

that puts me off. They can believe whatever they want as long as they don't try to enact into an oppressive law.

[WI_DEM]

67. well if we are pro-choice

that means we are accepting of any decision anybody makes. If they want to keep the baby that is fine, if they want to put the baby up for adoption that is fine. If the mother wants to abort the fetus that is her decision. So I think the pro-choice position is very accomodating of the the pro-life position.

[orpupilofnature57]

70. convert,where have i heard that term?Sounds like your religious

And thats O.K,I'M VERY TOLERANT,AND I WONT EVEN TRY AND convert you.

[Forkboy]

71. After reading all your posts today I'm even more against them

than I was before.

Thanks!!!! :hi:

[rockydem]

72. Why?

I think you're saying that purely out of spite, wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Forkboy]

77. Coming from someone who claimed to be on this crusade today

because you were pissed off by a Roemer thread.

Pot,say hi to the kettle.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. kick

[juslikagrzly]

75. So is this the thread we're now supposed to reply to? eom

[Moderator]

83. Yes.

[Zenlitened]

78. ???

Again, a kick?

[Cheswick2.0]

76. just as long as they are pro-choice

[Fiona]

79. No we don't

if by pro-life, you mean those wishing to ban abortion.

One can be perfectly pro-life and still believe the government has no business in the matter. We call that pro-choice, which includes pro-lifers.

[Lexingtonian]

80. The 10th Commandment

says you shouldn't covet your neighbor's stuff. Wife, kids, etc included.

I think 'pro-life' folks need to be told a little about that.

Foeti aren't human. Infants aren't humans until we admit them into our society. Technically and morally we can forbid child-bearing outright, provided there were enough of an emergency. Fertility cultism, including foetophilia, is a paganism. There is no real question of 'philosophy and science' to it, there is only a question of theology, discrimination and an issue of sentimentality about where to draw some kind of 'line' and vanity.

Because it's ultimately an issue of sentimentality and vanity there's only irrationality to the public discussion.

[geniph]

84. I'm pro-life - very pro the lives of women and girls

and would just as soon not see them dying of perforated uteruses, sepsis, hemorrhage, and other results of botched abortions, or beaten to death by angry fathers and/or boyfriends because of unwanted pregnancies.

[orpupilofnature57]

85. you got it,not an issue,of mens rights,though without them,not a issue

Or a problem ,for that matter.

[flaminbats]

87. do you know anyone avidly pro-death..other than Rumsfeld or bin Laden??

Being pro-choice means being tolerant. It means not criticizing others for mistakes we might have made. Most importantly, it means using our abilities to help fellow human beings..not passing laws to imprison others against their reproductive rights. Once we begin imprisoning women seeking abortions, it is only justice to imprison their husbands and partners as well. Why not just imprison every insurance executive or doctor too good to accept poor patients or children unable to pay?


We live in tale of two villages. In one world people are told they can have no more than one child per family. In ours we can reproduce as often as we please and even ditch our children! In one world food and medicine is scarce, but demand is constantly booming. In another there is plenty of good food to go around, although high tech medicine can cost a bit. In one world the bicycle is most peoples' daily mode of transportation, in the other..

Who is intolerant of pro-life Democrats...Bush is the one waging the war in Iraq? He's the one refusing to fund the necessary equipment and their bulletproof protection.

I now remember seeing that bright light just like yesterday, ohhh what a birthday that was.. blood everywhere's, I'll never forget it! whaaaaaaaa I wanted to climb right back in, but that doc just didn't let me!!! :grr:

[LevelB]

88. Abortions are horrible

And it is a sad thing that they are sometimes necessary. The posts from the nurses in this thread are painful to read.

I can understand not liking abortions - I cannot fathom not allowing a woman to choose.

B.

[El Biggo Doggo]

93. So many things are tragic, but necessary

I would love to live in a world where no woman had to have an abortion. But we don't live in that world. when you say

I can understand not liking abortions - I cannot fathom not allowing a woman to choose.

Tragic, tragic- but true. You're 100% right.

[footinmouth]

89. I can be tolerant

I still remember the miscarriage I had very early in a pregnancy almost 30 years ago. That mass of tissue was very much a child to me. I don't think I was more than 6 weeks along, but the event still saddened me at the time. I can certainly understand why some people would consider ending a pregnancy at that stage taking a life.

I still remain fiercely pro choice. Imagine the heartache of a pregnant woman diagnosed with cancer, in need of life-saving treatment that could harm her child. Is that really a decision that should be made by one's government? Or the pregnant woman lying in a coma who might live if her pregnancy is ended. I have no respect for the people who have chosen to meddle in those very personal decisions. Your truly fanatical pro-life people would show up at the hospital with a court order to stop the procedure.

I respect pro-lifers of either party who can realize that we don't live in a world of black and white. Shades of gray happen all the time and a "one size fits all" solution just doesn't always work. Both sides need to work together to try to cut down the need for this procedure. It will take reasonable people on each side to find a common ground that we all can build on.

Meanwhile, I'd be happy to have an intelligent discussion with any pro-life democrat on the subject.

[saracat]

94. I started a whole thread on this yesterday. NO and NO NO,No.NO.

Don't even open the door to them. They believe abortion is murder and will do whatever they can to stop it. We had this debate in the seventies. There is no reason to open the debate again.

[flaminbats]

95. amen!!

I know one fanatic who believes that he can remember his entire birth! He makes this personal "experience" his insane grounds for outlawing all abortions.

[rman]

96. how about pro-life Dems and Repubs being more tolerant of us,

for once?

[spooky3]

98. there is a point at which "big tent" or "tolerance" becomes

a complete absence of values. If every "value" is equally embraced, then nothing is truly valued.

Democrats need to hold fast to their fundamental values.

[DemGirl7]

100. I agree...

even though I'm pro-choice, I feel they shouldn't be excluded in the Democratic Party..I mean they probably believe in the majority of stuff other Democrats believe in so..

[Withywindle]

105. Pro-life, yes

Anti-choice, NO.


There's a very clear difference.


Lots of people on this board threaten to run off and vote Green over all sorts of things. Running an anti-choice candidate is one of very, very few things that could make ME do it.

I have a uterus, so I take it very personally--it might be a philosophical/"moral" issue to debate for MALE politicians and politics junkies, but it is about MY basic human rights to control my own body and future. Therefore, it is simply not on the table for discussion for me. And I like to think I believe in sisterhood enough that even when I safely pass menopause, it still won't be. :)

[Q]

106. Not sure what you mean by 'tolerant'

I'll agree if you mean we should be tolerant of their Anti-abortion' views...but not change our position to accomodate them.