Liberals-v-Progressives

[angee_is_mad]

what is the difference and which are you. I've noticed that a lot of people on here refer to themselves as progressive.

Is this the new pc word for liberals? Can anyone clear up my confusion?

[jdots]

1. Progressives are liberals on steroids ?

It isn't a p.c. thing,it's just that the media whores and wingnuts neocon greedmieters have made the word Liberal as spin jocky bull shit point.They will start with the word progressive soon enough .
I am a radical left wing pinko commie etc.. etc.... and get more leftist everyday when i see fascism/bushism

[DireStrike]

2. progressives are people trying to hide from what the RW has done

to the word liberal. Also, it provides a good thought process - we are progressive, they are regressive.

Me, I'm a liberal. Pretty soon progressive will be just as filthy. Rush is working on it, give him time.

[Lone Pawn]

5. Bill O'Reilly is using "progressive" now.

He's trying to trash the hell out of that.
I'd personally try to save 'progressive' rather than just giving up on it and 'liberal.' These guys aren't Radio Gods. We can define things just as well as they can.

[AndyTiedye]

23. Not Nearly As Well. They're on TV and We're Not

> These guys aren't Radio Gods. We can define things just as well as they can.

[rigel99]

3. My personal version of the Democratic Continuum

Having fought hard as a Howard Dean Progressive, I consider a progressive slightly to the liberal left of a centrist and moderate,
but far more conservatively to the right of a liberal... so here
is my continuum and the relative differences:

LIBERAL Gov. Size Large
Abortion Pro-life
Gun Control Pro-Guncontrol
Gay Rights Pro-Civil Unions, Pro-Gay Marriage, etc.
Economically Need more $$ going to social programs
Healthcare Everyone should have healthcare, paid by
medicare
Socialism Acceptable / healthy form of government
Enterprise Distrust of most businesses, large / small
Social Sec. Leave it alone (don't privatize) works fine
International Multilateralist, for nuclear bans
Environment Key issue, must be gov. funded to save
Deficits Ok if funding social programs and have a plan

PROGRESSIVE Gov. Size Smaller (goal is to decrease size, increase impact)
Abortion Pro-life
Gun Control Neutral to supporting anything goes
Gay Rights Pro-Civil Unions
Economically Need to efficiently manage $$ to get more $$ to social programs
Healthcare Under 18 and over 65 free healthcare (min.)
Socialism Not good as it distributes wealth towards graft, better solution is a controlled capitalism
Enterprise Loves small business, hates big business
Social Sec. Needs work but privatization not answer
International Multilateralist, for nuclear bans, for strict defense of our policies worldwide (tough internationally)
Environment Lesser issue, must look at total corporate system not just environment
Deficits Not OK at all, must remove all deficits to be able to fund social programs over time

The KEY to a progressive is an almost anal worry over money. Dean reduced a $70M deficit in Vermont over 11 years to a suplus with budget pots to reach into for healthcare, etc. He believes in limited gov. and not hip on big business but loves small business. he was actually for gun ownership and did not consider himself a gun control person... his abortion/civil union is the most conservative liberal stance you can have (not for morning after pill, not for gay marriage), so overall, people have progressives tagged incorrectly they are realists and to the left of a centrist but not by much. How they got labeled as more left than liberal I have no clue...

[angee_is_mad]

4. progressive is to the right

of liberalism? Isn't that the same thing as a moderate or conservative democrat?

[Lone Pawn]

6. Not quite. Progressives are to the social left and economic right.

By his count liberals have more restrictions on both business and personal affairs (greater-good restrictions).

[angee_is_mad]

8. libertarian, kinda?

or maybe a moderate repub? That's scary! I assumed that progressive was just the new pc word for liberal, since liberal is a 4-letter word nowadays.
Thanks for the info and I am so proud to be a liberal!

[TwentyFive]

16. I don't agree about Progressives being moderate. If anything

Progressives are more passionate about being lefty. Progressive vs. Liberal is more generational. Young people care more about the environment and social justice. Older people care more about economic issues.

[Radical Activist]

10. You have it backwards

Which I explain in post 9.

[Lone Pawn]

14. And you're using ancient definitions

that haven't been relevant for decades.

[Radical Activist]

7. I think he just pulled all of that

out of thin air. As others have posted, progressive is a term liberals use because the word liberal has been so well demonized. Even this poster has defined liberalism as everything he/she sees as too extreme. I don't buy into the idea that one political figure, Dean or otherwise, gets to redefine a commonly used term to exactly fit his own views. Being progressive does not mean being a moderate.

[Lone Pawn]

11. There are those who use them interchangably, and

there are those who try to use it to seperate themselves from the "liberals" of the Democratic party. Myself, I think it has value to split the word into two meanings, since under those terms I'm more of a progressive than a liberal, and it would make things easier in political discussion to not have to spend the first half hour explaining my views on gun control, deficits, welfare, social spending, socialism, and business restrictions.

[TwentyFive]

13. The difference between Liberals & Progressives? Here is my take on this >

I live in San Francisco. The Progressive and Liberal movements are strong here. There is much agreement and overlap between both, but each seems to prioritize different issues.

LIBERALS: economic issues & civil rights are most important.
PROGRESSIVES: environment & social justice are most important.
I would say the biggest demarcation between liberals and progressives is generational. Progressives are younger and more true to the cause. Liberals are older and have fought the battles. Liberals value compromise and working within the system. Progressives see the system as corrupt, and want to replace it.

Progressives:
>>Environment is #1 because education proves we can produce cars, buildings, food, consumer goods, etc from renewable resources...or at least ways that limit damage to the environment.
>>Do not trust big companies or institutions in any shape or form. Many young progressives prefer working for a small company, are self-employed, own small businesses, or work at a non-profit. The key being that their individuality is not stifled. They want some degree of control over their life and well being.
>>Very pro gay marriage. Many young progressives have gay friends and are outraged that the govt uses them as scapegoats.

Liberals:
>>May be unionized employee - and saw union bashing become popular under Reagan.
>>Remember the civil rights struggles of the 1960's and earlier, and know the battle is still not over.
>>Many older liberals are less comfortable with homosexuality. They respect gay rights, but still have residual prejudice left over from an earlier time.

[angee_is_mad]

17. more true to cause?

explain please. I find your definition very interesting.

[TwentyFive]

22. True to the cause - a story

Here in SF, Mayor Willie Brown supported equal rights for gays for years. When Mayor Gavin Newsom replaced Willie as the new mayor....Gavin almost immediately issued marriage licenses to same-sex couples. When the media ruckus ensued, Gavin calmly stood in front of TV cameras (from all over the US), and explained his decision in plain English. No hedging or political spin.

Although Gavin isn't a true Progressive, his decision energized Progressives like they hadn't been in years.

Progressives are more 'true to the cause' because they are often younger, and see the world in more black & white terms. Liberals tend to see more shades of gray, and try to understand their opponents. For example, liberals may be fine with same-sex marriage - but understand that some people have moral problems with it - and so they back pedal and seek a compromise. Progressives see same-sex marriage as a fundamental human right, and will argue why it makes sense, and why anything less is immoral.

Liberals make conservatives laugh, as they spin their nuanced answers (see John Kerry). Progressives, however, make conservatives blow an artery (more like Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton).

[angee_is_mad]

24. So progressive mindset is right?

and anything else is wrong? I thought the party was all about not judging people? If I go by your definition it sounds like progressives are like the religious right. We are right and you are wrong! That's not being inclusive and I thought the Dem's were all about inclusion.
I do appreciate your passion, but never forget about that little old blk lady who goes to church every Sunday and pay her tithes and faithfully vote Democratic even when the party has forgotten all about her, because they have chosen a new favor of the month!

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[angee_is_mad]

28. agree to disagree

and move on to the next topic! How is going to church every Sunday and paying tithes being a bigot? or is a bigot someone who does not agree with you on somethings but accept you for how you are?

Can you accept others who wish you no harm and can look beyond your sexuality to the whole person?

[TwentyFive]

32. Bigot defined - but I think you misunderstand what I am saying....

I looked up the definition.
Bigot,"One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

I don't want to control what churches do. Churches should be free to say whatever they want...muslim, christian, jewish...whatever. But, when the church is used to rile the members up, so they exit the doors and seek to limit other people's civil rights or otherwise harm people...that is intolerance...and thus, bigotry.

Same-sex marriage does not diminish or devalue my hopeful hetersexual marriage in any way. I was opposed to it at one point, but as I sought to understand it and what gays go through, I found my fears were totally unjustified.

In my book, it's never ok compromise with people who want to discriminate against somebody for who they are. If that makes me bigoted against bigots, then so be it.

[MaineDem]

33. Pro-life?

As opposed to being pro-choice?

What am I missing here?

[Radical Activist]

9. Historically the Progressive Party was a very economically liberal group

The Progressive Party had three major Presidential candidates run under its banner. First was Theodore Roosevelt who was a liberal anti-trust reformer who felt the Republican party nominee was too conservative.
There was also the very liberal populist from Wisconsin, Fighting Bob LaFollette. He was another maverick Republican with very liberal views on economic issues and a moralist attitude on social reform. Then there was Henry Wallace, FDR's former VP who had basically become a populist socialist. He represented the farmer-labor coalition.

So, I don't think there is any precedent for the idea that a progressive is a social liberal and economic moderate/conservative. In fact the historical examples are just the opposite. The Progressives focused strongly on economic issues, to the left of the major parties, and if they had any strong feelings on social issues they were generally moralists trying to reform society.

[Lone Pawn]

12. Yes, but the Progressive party's dead, and so is the meaning of that word.

At one point the Democrats were the conservatives and the Republicans were the liberals (okay, major oversimplification) but things change. Political memories are at best one generation--anything before that is only what people have been told. Define the terms, define the debate, and you'll define the future.

[Radical Activist]

15. And your definition comes from where?

The issues changed but the focus and style of Progressives and Populists has remained the same. The Progressive party was not just the name of a party structure like the Democrats and Republicans; it was a party that reappeared on occasion as a vehicle for ideologically progressive candidates. Do we just ignore historical patterns and throw out old definitions every few years to remake words in our own image? I think the meaning of progressive has remained in many respects. On what basis do you make your definition?

[angee_is_mad]

19. Could it be a class thing?

progressives being middle to upper class whites and liberals being working class(excluding the Kennedy's) with a more diverse racial make up?

[Radical Activist]

25. Maybe. Here's a long answer

I can agree that it is a word that has meant different things to different people at different times. That's still true today, which is why there is no one set definition of what a progressive is.

For a number of decades the socialists and communists would often refer to themselves as progressives. That was before the communists and socialists were wiped out in the 50's. So, they used the term progressive as an alternative to a word with negative connotations, which is exactly what a lot of liberals are doing today when they call themselves progressives.

If you go back further to the late 1800's and early 1900's there was a stronger distinction between progressives and populists than there is today. The progressives were often more urban, industrial, eastern, sometimes upper-class and better educated than the populists, who were based on farms and small towns in the midwest and south. The two groups had a lot of agreement on economic issues, but differed somewhat on social reform and morality issues.

If you wanted to use those historical patterns today you could say that both populists and progressives are liberal on economic issues. However the progressives would likely be liberal on social issues while the populists might be more moderate or conservative on social issues. The person most like a populist who ran in '04 was John Edwards. He talked about class and other economic issues, but also took a moderate approach to social issues like gay marriage and made many arguments in religious terms. He took the same general approach as William Jennings Bryan or Huey Long who were the ultimate populists, but in more modern and less extreme ways. They both focused on economic issues but frequently used biblical language to make their case.

The modern candidate most like the old progressives was probably Dennis Kucinich. He was very liberal on both economic and social issues like they were. In fact, he reminds me a lot of the last person to run for President on the Progressive Party ticket, Henry Wallace. Kucinich probably would have fit in best with the old progressives. He's very pro-union, pro-family farmer, against US imperialism overseas, against big business trusts, just like the old progressives.

I think liberal is probably a more general term that can encompass most of the left. Progressive is a vague enough term that you can ask ten people what it means and get ten answers. Personally, I think it's useful to look at what the terms have meant over the decades for perspective.

[Radical Activist]

27. lessons for todays world from progressives and populists

For many years the progressive movement was more urban based in the Northeast and in large midwestern towns. It was an urban worker movement.
By contrast the populist movement was rural and focused on agricultural policy that was of concern to farmers.
A national movement was born with enough strength to win when the progressives and populists realized that they had a lot of common ground on economic issues and common corporate enemies to unite against. They both had to fight corporate power and control of the government in order to win rights for the common worker and farmer. That alliance was solidified under the New Deal coalition.

The big mistake the Democratic party has made in the last 20 years or so is to stop talking about those unifying economic issues that started a winning coalition so many years ago. We stopped talking about the economic issues that unite working people in urban cities like the old progressives and rural workers and farmers like the old populists. We as a party basically decided to write off the south, the great plains and rural areas in general. We alienated a huge part of a coalition that worked for at least 50 years. That's why the DLC is so dangerous and why selling out to corporations has failed us so badly.

That winning coalition is being destroyed by urban Democrats who don't care about the economic issues that kept the Democratic Party viable for so long. Social issues are important too, but we can't sell out to the corporate donors because economic issues are what allowed Democrats to unify voters in the red and blue states for many years, until now. We should have stuck with what worked.

[angee_is_mad]

31. U got my vote

really you do!

[angee_is_mad]

29. Thank you

for breaking everything down for me. I agree with the ten people statement. I've just been called a bigot and a freeper when I mentioned to a self-proclaim progressive to not forget about the little old blk lady who goes to church every Sunday and pay her tithes and faithfully vote democratic even when the party has forgotten all about her.
Well, we are an interesting party to say the least.

[Radical Activist]

36. You're welcome

I'm not sure what the person who called you a freeper bigot was talking about. Who knows?

[Forkboy]

18. I dont know what I am

but I do know a lot of people here will be willing to offer up suggestions :evilgrin:

[PallasAthena]

20. Personally, I now refer to myself as progressive.

I came to that conclusion while reading In These Times and The Nation. My sense (and I've never seen definitions for these spelled out before -- although I have never looked) is that progressives are somewhat farther left than liberals. That's how I use it, anyway.

Howard Dean was considered a progressive, although his economic policies were quite moderate and responsible (pay as you go, to put it very simply). However, the current administration seems to have turned "traditional" definitions of terms upside down. It used to be that Republicans were for economic responsibility, smaller government, and states' rights. Bush & Co. have gone against all of that, so that we progressives, liberals, and Democrats are now on the side of not bankrupting the future and allowing states to make their own rules about things like medical marijuana.

Go figure.

[SariesNightly]

21. Return to form

For some reason liberal has become a dirty word, so far removed from classical liberalism which is basically what 'progressives' are trying to bring back.

This says as much about a failure to get a clear message forward as a failure to fight incessant repub slander.

[Debs]

30. I use them interchangeably

I was never ashamed to call myself a liberal. Progressive is good enough for me. Radical is great. Leftwing. All I know is if I want to see Jane Fonda or Ted Kennedy on the political spectrum I have to look to my right

[sportndandy]

34. Progressives are liberals who are not wimps.

If you consider democrats to be liberals.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Neither. I'm a socialist.

Which is what I tell people who ask.