If This Guy Roemer Wins DNC Chairman, There Will Be A Civil War In Here

[THUNDER HANDS]

that will make the Southern bashing threads look like 'Ask Me Anything' threads.

A guy from Indiana, a state that the Democrats will never win in a presidential race, will come in and force his anti-abortion views upon this party.

Hooo boy, this isn't going to be pretty.

At least he's not from Georgia or South Carolina or Mississippi. But all that means is that southern bashing will branch out to include midwest bashing.

Is this guy the best we can do?

I'm not the hugest Howard Dean fan in the world, but isn't there some happy middle ground between an anti-abortion guy from a state we'll never win and a northeastern liberal guy from a state we'll never lose?

[manhattanite]

1. He is Harry Reid's agent.

He hand-picked him because of Roemer's anti-abortion views. We cannot allow him to become head of the DNC. It is time for Durbin to overthrow Reid before he destroys our party.

[KoKo]

3. It would be great if Durbin would make a try at Reid. We haven't had

any excitement within the DNC/DLC ranks in a long time.

[Pepperbelly]

62. Durbin would lose.

And what good would THAT do him or the party?

[Hippo_Tron]

87. The time to do that was before they elected leadership positions

I want Durbin in the #1 spot just as much as the next guy but it's too late to do that.

[PDittie]

2. God damn straight

I'm done with the Democrats if they do this.

[0007]

20. They definitely won't have my support.

[Radical Activist]

4. Actually Indiana is a Southern State

I know it's in the midwest geographically but it never really fit in here.

Anyway, how does a DNC chair "force" his views on any issue onto the party? That seems beyond the power of that office.

[Hippo_Tron]

5. Segregation was banned there before Brown v Board of Education

I understand what you mean when you say that it is really a southern state, but why is that? BTW I agree that we are making too much of a fuss about DNC chair, who is currently just a fundraiser.

[lateo]

13. But...

Indiana had a larger KKK population than Mississippi.

[Radical Activist]

17. Southern Indiana is also

a central point for much of the militia movement. My Dad is from there and while I like some things about the state it's more Southern in attitude than midwestern.

[salin]

29. Not in the two parts of the state that I spend most of my time

Indy and Bloomington - neither fits the description that you give here and elsewhere on the thread.

[Radical Activist]

53. If you lived in

the largest city in the state and an University town then I would not expect you to recognize the description I made that several others agreed with. Those two cities aren't like the rest of the state, especially not like the rural areas.

[thinkingwoman]

66. I live in rural southern indiana

with a population of under 5,000...sorry, no militia here.

Furthermore, my family dates back about 6 generations in two counties here...no militia haven.

The KKK was strong in the state but has been beaten back. There is plenty of racism, but it's the mostly silent insidious kind.

But there is no militia stronghold down here.

Your info is wrong.

[Radical Activist]

86. Are you sure?

I'm sure there aren't militias in every town but Indiana has long been known as a center-point for the movement.

Here's an article from a regional paper. The good news is that they have been in decline since the mid-90's.
http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2001/04/22/ke042201s14853.htm

This group was an exception:
''We are having a resurgence of new members,'' said Stan Wilson, who commands the militia in Hancock County, Ind., east of Indianapolis, which describes itself as a moderate group.

Here's the website for a group of militias in southern Indiana
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/crayon/881/

The Indiana Militia Corps:
http://indianamilitia.homestead.com/index.html

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a lot of good information on the subject including this article:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=165

Four members of the 14th Regiment of the Indiana State Militia are in jail after federal agents uncovered a bizarre scheme to allegedly sell drugs, murder one of the militia's own members, and attack with biological weapons a controversial play that portrays Jesus as homosexual.

I understand that stereotypes are unfair and that there are a lot of good people in Indiana. However, pretending the problem isn't there helps no one.

[thinkingwoman]

97. It's my job to be sure

I'm a journalist with a strong sociology minor.

I did not say there weren't ANY militia groups in Indiana. I said there was no militia in my town and that this area was not a "militia haven."
I added that "there is no militia stronghold down here."

I earned my soc minor in the early to mid 1990s and I chose coursework focusing on criminology and militia movements. Not one of my professors or any of the sources I researched mentioned Southern Indiana as a flashpoint, or as you put it: "a central point for much of the militia movement."

Looking over the links you provided further proves my point. Indiana militia websites are merely brochures for their cause--hardly relevant and certainly not a valid source of their strength.

The Courier-Journal is well read in these parts of Indiana and does a decent job of covering Indiana government and politics but its southern Indiana culture coverage is limited mostly to the counties that border KY, especially near Louisville. Even so, that source, as you admitted in your post, says Indiana militia is on the decline.

That article clearly sources the Southern Poverty Law Center when discussing the decline of militia groups nationwide, but gives a broad and vague (read: unverifiable) source when making the claim that Indiana was part of a midwestern "corridor" of "strong" militia groups.

That's crappy reporting.

Your Southern Povery Law Center link is your best source for your assertion. It discusses the recent (2000) formation of an Indiana militia group and the ATF's work to bring them down...

"The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) began to watch the 14th Regiment in 2000, when it received information that group members might try to use explosives against police who were planning to seize the tax-defying Indianapolis Baptist Temple after a long-running dispute."

But I like this paragraph the best:

"The arrests likely spell the end of the 14th Regiment of the Indiana State Militia, a group that once had as many as 25 members."

<sarcasm>

Wowie, 25 whole members at its peak and it has only been in existance since 2000! Golly, how did we blind Southern Indiana hicks miss this menace in our midst??

</sarcasm>

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I stand by my assertion that Southern Indiana is not "a central point for much of the militia movement" as you describe it.

[BiggJawn]

104. We are not a "Militia Strongehold", That's MICHIGAN!

But then, Michigan's a BLUE state, and you can't speak ill of the BLUE states, now, can you?

Tim McVeigh got his start in some Michigan Militia.

I think Mmoja Ajabu has more members in his "Black Panther Militia" than all the Cracker white-boy groups put together.

[Jack Bone]

112. Roemer's from Northern Indiana...

I believe he was 3rd district rep...that was the OLD 3rd district (before the gerrymandering of 2000)..if he were in now he'd be in the 2nd district..which I'm in, I used to be in the 5th..either way he's from the North..South Bend, is the major city in his district..Notre Dame is there..alot of Liberal thought and activism there as well...we could get alot worse than Tim Roemer..IMHO

[Clark2008]

113. I lived in southern Indiana

and I can tell you that it's more Southern in attitude than Southerners.

Honestly.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. No kidding...

Guess Indiana is just a weird state.

[lateo]

75. Not only weird...

Agrarian...and those sorts of cultures tend to be highly religious.

[high density]

7. About "forcing" his views... I agree

I keep hearing how the DNC chair is primarily a "fundraiser," so I can't see how this Roemer guy would have any input on policy decisions. Now if he gets on TV and starts spouting anti-choice stuff while acting as the head of the DNC, that could be a problem.

[sherilocks]

69. You think that the right-wing flunkies who call themselves

TV journalists won't jump at the chance to ask Roemer about his views on reproductive choice whenever Roemer gets interviewed? Or are the Dems going to keep Roemer "in the closet?" The current DNC chair is on these shows often.

[xxqqqzme]

8. Grew up in IN

It's attitude IS southern - the KKK controlled the state during the depression years and that attitude dominates thru-out the state 2 this day.

[stevebreeze]

55. By using giving or denying fund raising power to candidates

It's just that simple.

remember that official sanction of the party also confer legitimacy to a candidate that attracts other donors. This is one of the reasons we need to go to clean money clean elections strategy, like MA and AZ.

http://www.publicampaign.org/congress/index.htm#cleanmoney

It is why the party has been moving to the right for so long money gets to buy power, and all money wants is more power/money.

[BiggJawn]

105. Oh yeah, let's beat up on Indiana some more...

Every Hoosier woman is proud of her recipes for Grits and Sweet Tea...I myself just LUVS me some stewed possum! And I didn't learn about sex until I was almost an adult...Didn't have no sisters or female cousins...

I hope Dean gets the position. I wanna see some FIRE going after Rove next time.

[politicasista]

6. I am sorry but they should have nominated...

Kweisi Mfume (former NAACP chairman), or a member of the Congressional Black Caucus. Dems need to show that the party cares about diversity and race and will not take them for granted. Smirky and the GOP have the upper hand on diversity that is evident in his last and current cabinet.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. That would be my choice too, as I have said so many times

His leaving the NAACP could not have been timed better. He is a good guy in the classic sense of good guys.

However, I'm not so sure this is what he wants. There're pretty strong indications here in Maryland that he may run for Sarbanes' senate seat if Sarbanes, who will be 71 in 06, decides to retire. On the other hand, if Sarbanes does NOT retire, then Mfume may well consider the DNC chair ..... or may run for Baltimore mayor if/when current mayor Martin O'Malley unseats that slug Ehrlich (R-Nazi Muthafukka) for Governor.

{typo edts}

[xxqqqzme]

9. I am green if the DNC/DLC

keep moving rong.

[greenohio]

10. Its sad. Roemer did a ton to beat up shrub. Alas he isn't

the the savior to some and so will be hated if selected. I disagree with him on a lot of stuff, but I have no plans to demonize him if he becomes DNC chair.

http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=September%2011%20Investigation

"that Bush might be forced to accept an independent commission he has long opposed....passage of this bill is a significant step forward,' said its sponsor, Rep. Tim Roemer, D-IN."

"The commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks announced yesterday that it has identified 69 documents from the Clinton era that the Bush White House withheld from investigators and which include references to al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and other issues relevant to the panel's work. Democratic commissioner Timothy J. Roemer, a former Indiana congressman, said: "We continue to have document problems with this White House. Access to documents is absolutely crucial for this commission to be able to do its work." "

" They also want access to information about communications between Norad and Air Force One, on which Bush was traveling on Sept. 11." Hooray for truthseekers Tim Roemer and Richard Ben Veniste!"


The Miami Herald reports: "A long-awaited final report on the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks will be released in the next two weeks, containing new information about U.S. government mistakes and Saudi financing of terrorists. Former Rep. Tim Roemer, who served on the House Intelligence Committee and who has read the report, said it will be 'highly explosive' when it becomes public... The report will show that top Bush administration officials were warned in the summer of 2001 that the al Qaeda terrorist network had plans to hijack aircraft and launch a 'spectacular attack.''

[joanski01]

12. I've been ticked at the DNC

ever since they passed over Maynard Jackson for Terry McAuliffe. But Clinton wanted Terry.

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. What bugs me as much or more than Roemer's DLC links....

...is the fact that he was on that fucking joke called the "9/11 commission" (or as I call it, "Warren Commission II")

Anyone else this willing to lie to the American people to protect Bush and the Saudis cannot speak for the Democratic party.

[dbeach]

89. DNC

"Meet the New BOSS same as the ole BOSS"..Sure loooks like a pay back for lying with the rest of the mice at Warren revisited commission,i,e. 9/11 commission...

dems need to stop being such enablers as the USA plunges more into bushevokia...maybe a 12 step program for all national Dems ,DNC and DLC..Call it Repukinon
"no honey..no money "and I give no more money to DNC

[Walt Starr]

15. It's pretty simple to me, if Roemer gets in

I get out.

No ifs, ands, or buts. The ABB bullshit arguments about splitting the party died on November 2nd. No more moving to the right. Movement to the right brought us to where we are today!

[Pepperbelly]

63. Walt ... you have posted many deal breakers as far as you are concerned.

When you make EVERYTHING a deal breaker, it makes people say whooper shit. So go then ...

If the DNC does this or if they do that ... isn't it a waste of energy to set up hypoteticals on a day to day basis?

[The Gigmeister]

16. I'm from Indiana, and...

Tim Roemer is a good, hardworking, loyal, dedicated, Union supporting, old-school, LIFELONG DEMOCRAT in good standing!!

He is EXACTLY what we need if we are ever going to be competative in states like this one or the midwestern and southern states where we used to have a majority.

Personally, I'm in favor if Govenor Dean because he's got the FIRE, but I'll gladly take the man I've eagerly voted for a few times, the honorable former Congressman, Tim Roemer, if he's elected.

[cali]

18. Yeah, let's make Roemer out to be a boogyman

before we know anything about him other than his stance on abortion. Typical.

[lojasmo]

21. okay....a quick google search

Voted YES on Constitutional amendment prohibiting Flag Desecration. (Jul 2001)
Voted NO on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999)
Voted YES on Amendment to prohibit burning the US flag. (Jun 1999)
Voted NO on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions. (May 1998)
Shift from group preferences to economic empowerment of all. (Aug 2000)
Supports anti-flag desecration amendment. (Mar 2001)

Voted NO on funding for alternative sentencing instead of more prisons. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on more prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crime. (Jun 1999)
Voted NO on maintaining right of habeus corpus in Death Penalty Appeals. (Mar 1996)
Voted YES on making federal death penalty appeals harder. (Feb 1995)
Voted NO on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment. (Apr 1994)
Moratorium on death penalty; more DNA testing. (Mar 2001)
Require DNA testing for all federal executions. (Mar 2001)
\Voted YES on keeping Cuba travel ban until political prisoners released. (Jul 2001)
Voted YES on withholding $244M in UN Back Payments until US seat restored. (May 2001)
Voted NO on $156M to IMF for 3rd-world debt reduction. (Jul 2000)
Voted YES on Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China. (May 2000)
Voted YES on $266 billion Defense Appropriations bill. (Jul 1999)
Voted YES on deploying SDI. (Mar 1999)

[wyldwolf]

22. ...so if another democrat has an equally apalling record...

..you wouldn't consider him/her either?

[lojasmo]

23. Looks like a republican to me. N/T

[The Gigmeister]

36. A Republican???????????????

Are you NUTS??


Voted NO on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999)

Voted NO on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions. (May 1998)

Shift from group preferences to economic empowerment of all. (Aug 2000)



As for the rest of his votes, they just prove he's tough on crime, pro-defense, and anti-flag burning.

I'd say those issues are pretty popular with middle-America.


Jesus Christ man...Who do you want to run for DNC Chair? Michael Moore??

[lojasmo]

39. well, he is a proven raiser of funds

[sherilocks]

71. How about these votes by Roemer?

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research. (Jul 2001)
Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)
Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)
Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)
Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)

http://www.issues2002.org/IN/Tim_Roemer.htm

More on Reid, the minority leader who is also anti-choice:

2001-2002 On the votes that the American Civil Liberties Union considered to be the most important in 2001-2002 , Senator Reid voted their preferred position 40 percent of the time.

2000 On the votes that the American Civil Liberties Union considered to be the most important in 2000 , Senator Reid voted their preferred position 29 percent of the time

Still think the Democratic Party is going in the correct or should I say RIGHT way? I don't, and this life-long third generation yellow dog Democrat leaves the party if Roemer is the DNC chair.

[shance]

95. Yep, he' s a Republican. Why doesnt he admit it?

This is ridiculous.

Makes one think the DLC is recruiting Republicans to infiltrate the Democratic party doesn't it?

[AntiCoup2K4]

77. "Who do you want to run for DNC Chair? Michael Moore??"

Actually, that might be a step in the proper direction, but I don't believe he's a registered Democrat. Or he might have registered as one just for the 2004 election, if his state required it.

That being the case, I'll stick with Howard Dean.

[Geek_Girl]

109. Where does he stand on economic issues?

Social Security?
Outsourcing?
Corporate tax breaks?
Nafta?

and also how good of a fund raiser is he since that will be his main purpose?

[The Gigmeister]

35. I see some pretty damned good votes in there!!!

[The Gigmeister]

34. Don't you know? Boogy Men create a permanet excuse for LOSING!!!

I mean really...

How do you defeat the Boogie Man? He never dies!!

I am so fucking tired of ALL the Boogie Men...

[lojasmo]

19. Howard Dean is NOT a liberal, goddamnit.

He is a proven motivator of the grassroots of the party...just what the party needs to take the power back from corporate america.

Roemer can (insert derogatory phrase here)

[Disturbed]

25. If the Dems don't elect Dean...

it's over for them. The Green Party may become the alt. party for Dems who refuse to become Rethug lite.

[DaveinMD]

30. Dean is not the only good Democrat

He's not a savior. He's a good Democrat. There are other good Democrats too.

[lojasmo]

41. Damn few good democration in the national game.

I can count the TRULY good ones on my toes and fingers.

[DaveinMD]

45. I disagree

most of them are good people. I like that you like Dean. That's great. No need to put down the other folks in our party

[lojasmo]

57. Not saying they're not good people....

They're politicians. They make bad choices in order to stay "electable" It makes them bad democrats.

[lojasmo]

68. Okay, we disagree.

There are others I like too.

Feingold
Boxer
Dayton

To name a quick few.

[The Gigmeister]

37. The Greens have NEVER won ANYTHING!

What makes you think they ever will?

[Walt Starr]

38. They will once the Dems drive everybody away

which the Dems are doing quite well these days.

[The Gigmeister]

42. No, they won't.

Answer me this, if you're interested...

Doesn't it do your heart good to see Libertarians and Conservative Party members, and other fringe Right Wingers enter races?

It does mine.


And...

Wouldn't you just LOVE IT if one of these fringe parties gained at least 5% of the vote one election so they could receive matching funds the following election?

I would love it.


And...

You DO know Pat Buchanan cost Bush a few states in 2000, right?

You DO know Ross Perot seriously hurt Poppy Bush and Bob Dole, right??

[Walt Starr]

47. And with the Dems going further and further to the right

I'm going to help HURT THEM, too.

Sorry, the Dems are abandoning the base figuring the arguments of ABB held any relevance beyond November 2nd. Those arguments are meaningless now.

And the most hilarious part of the whole damn thing is the fact that those the Democrats are trying to appeal to by moving to the right will not, under any circumstances, EVER vote for a Democrat.

[The Gigmeister]

49. Wrong.

Security Moms.

Union Men who support the War on Terror.

Christian Democrats.


Just to name three groups who could be easily reached-out too.

[Walt Starr]

50. While losing

GLBT
non-Christian Dems
Pro-Choice Dems
Anti-war Dems

I think you will find that the trade-off won't be worth it.

Roemer gets in, I become anti-Democrat moreso than I am anti-Republican. If I want a Republican, I'll vote for one. If my choice is a Republican or a Democrat acting like a Republican, I'll take the real deal, at least I know I'm getting fucked instead of trusting somebody not to fuck me.

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. So you assume Christian Democrats will vote for DLC sellouts?

I can tell you this one won't.

[STL_Social_Democrat]

54. Union Men

As a union man I'm wondering why any union member would support someone that voted for PNTR with China? I love hearing about these "union supporting" democrats who take their money and endorsements, only to piss on them with votes like that.

[Hippo_Tron]

88. What states did Pat Buchannan cost Bush in 2000?

This is a new revelation. And Perot very arguable hurt Poppy Bush, but not Dole. Clinton's victory might not have been a landslide in '92 but he had majorities in most of the states that he won in '96.

[lojasmo]

40. The greens are a powerful party internationally. N/T

[The Gigmeister]

43. So?

The last time I checked, we don't count non-American votes.

[lojasmo]

58. If the democratic party keeps fucking up....

they're going to lose 15-20% of their constituents. That will make them irrelevent. It won't do any good for several years, but we may create true third-party politics within 10-15 years.

[The Gigmeister]

61. This is a two party nation...It always will be. That is a simple fact.

[lojasmo]

67. Wow! You're Psychic! Did you predict a Bush win? N/T

[DireStrike]

76. Yep. Two parties. The Whigs and the Democratic-Republicans.

[Geek_Girl]

110. I agree you have to wonder what the Democrats are thinking

The purpose of the DNC chair is to raise money and garner support. If they put a guy in that is appalling to the democratic base how the hell do they expect to get support.

Roemer is anti-choice and conservative on the hot botton issues I don't see how this in way appeals to the base. I know I won't be donating to the DNC anymore and I imagine others will do the same.

[NoPasaran]

24. The selection of Roemer as Chair

wouldn't force me out of my party any more than the selection of Bush will force me out of my country. And I don't really expect that it will lead to widespread defections from the rest of this community. We went through the same posturing during the primaries---if our guy wasn't selected we were going Green or sitting this one out and the the end 99% of us ended up working our asses off for Kerry, even though for many of us he was not our ideal candidate.

But in the meantime, vent all you want. It's freakin' cold and we can use the hot air.

[greenohio]

73. LOL....we can use the hot air.

That was funny.

[InvisibleBallots]

26. DU is nearly irrelevant to the Democratic party

This website represents a tiny little demographic comared to the Democratic party as a whole - the popular candidates on DU during the primaries - Dean, Clark, Kucinich - did very badly in the primaries.

[Eloriel]

31. You really can't take the so-called "results" of the primaries

as any real indicator of their popularity -- especially for Dean whose candidacy was shot out from under him thanks to the extremely dirty tricks and backroom deals of his opponents, specifically Kerry, Gephardt, Clark, and oh yes, Kucinich and Edwards.

[InvisibleBallots]

33. Dean was never very popular

Even Trippi admitted that they never got past their core supporters (did he say 600,000?). The corporate media and the mainstream Democrats did their very best to sabotage him - and it worked.

Dean might have beaten Bush if he won the primaries. But I still don't think DU represents anything other than a tiny sliver of the Democratic party as a whole. And while the Dean grassroots supporters in my opinion are the best thing the Democrats have going for them - we have a long, long, long way to go.

[The Gigmeister]

44. Oh man....

Dean was leading with 40% of the vote...His next closest challenger was in the teens!

He was the media DARLING! They were all saying he had it sowed-up!!

He wasn't ready for Prime-Time and melted-down.

This revisionist history has got to stop. We've GOT to face reality if we're EVER going to win!!


I LOVE Govenor Dean's passion and vision and would GLADLY support him as head of the DNC, but he's proven to be a very poor candidate!!

[Cheswick2.0]

98. denial doesn't help

Eloriel was right about what happened. Even the people involved admit to it. Some assholes around here claim it is "just politics". Are you calling them all liars?

[gorbal]

102. Candidate for What?

You have to remember he is running for "DLC" chairman. He doesn't have to be popular in the south for that to work out.

[eridani]

94. RE that Kucinich/Edwards thing

Both were behind in the polls at the time. Why would either make deals with the frontrunners who are projected to not have trouble making threshhold numbers?

[Cheswick2.0]

99. are you denying the made a deal?

Everyone knows they made a deal. I am sure DK thought he was getting something from it, but he was played just like Gephardt was.

Iowa should not ever be the first primary again. Open caucuses are too easy to manipulate.

[eridani]

108. Of course not--

--but how do you expect that people running behind in the polls are not going to try to get delgates somehow or another?

Kucinich most assuredly had nothing to do with that slimy Dean=Osama crap.

[itzamirakul]

96. I don't think that you take into consideration

the fact that many of us have massive mailing lists, whose recipients in turn have their own massive mailing lists. A lot of us have used our own personal mailing lists to keep friends and fellow voters informed of what is going on and have helped them to make intelligent choices (esp. in encouraging them to vote and to support the Party's choice of an "electable candidate). Together, we do manage to affect a large number of voters all over the U.S. and they often pass the word along to their friends and neighbors - so please don't underestimate the power of a few here on DU.

I just cannot stomach another DLC choice because i think that the DLC members don't care if we win or lose. They will continue to fundraise and pocket their share of the funds. Why shouldn't they work WITH the Republicans? They are not losing a damned thing. There is absolutely NOTHING about the DLC that is credible to me and the DLC has a stranglehold on the DNC. They are nearly one-and-the-same except for their names.

Why doesn't Al From publish his salary and tell where it comes from?

[sampsonblk]

106. DEMOCRATS are nearly irrelevant to the Democratic party

or so it seems.

In 2008, I am going to register as a swing voter! Or a moderate.

(sarcasm)

[slay]

27. No doubt. The Dems will lose many peeps to the Greens if they choose Roem

er. And that might not be a bad thing. From the looks of things, both Republicans and Dems are hella corrupt. I'll withhold judgment until Chimpy is sworn in and see just how big of a shitstorm the Dems have raised by then.

[lulu]

28. So, is the DNC expecting a mass influx of republicans

becoming registered democrats to compensate for the massive amounts of liberal democracts that will be bolting from the party? It's an insult to my very core that this person is even being considered. A nagging thought has been scratching the back of my mind lately -- once the republican party has been exiled because of uncoutable illegal activities, the democrats will become republicans and another left-leaning party will emerge.

[lojasmo]

115. Think fart in a windstorm....at least from the leadership.

[Obviousman]

46. He's also anti- social security

He will lead democrats out of the party in droves. No doubt the Republicans are rooting for him.
William Donohue

[zulchzulu]

48. If he raises money, who cares...but it sure is a mighty risky strategy

Making anti-abortion folks "happy" in the Democratic Party is like letting someone dump Drano in the Shrimp Etoufee so that he can be "happy".

As for Roemer, here are some of his wonderful stances:

Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research. (Jul 2001)

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad. (May 2001)

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)

Voted YES on Constitutional amendment prohibiting Flag Desecration. (Jul 2001)

Supports anti-flag desecration amendment. (Mar 2001)

Voted YES on making federal death penalty appeals harder. (Feb 1995)

http://www.ontheissues.org/IN/Tim_Roemer.htm

[KissMeKate]

51. is the DNC out of touch ?

I wonder why the DNC keeps moving to the right, chasing after the republican party?

I remember we tried to run a relatively conservative green beret for office in Virginia, he still lost- because he wasnt officially a republican. I worked my butt off for that guy, and I didnt even like him.

I am so dissillusioned about the Democratic party right now- someone said recently that the democrats act like they are a circus coming into town each election day and then when they election is over, packing up and leaving.

The party will continue to bleed its base if it continues to betray its base.

Hasnt the DNC learned that Bush voters are going to stay loyal to the republican party no matter how far to the right we pander?

[iamjoy]

56. It is Not Just That Roemer Is Pro-Life

It is what electing a pro-life chair (when we already have a pro-life Senate minority leader) symbolizes.

One could argue that having one Pro-Lifer in a prominant party position shows tolerance, acceptance. But having two seems to signify a possible shift in party position on the issue.

The Party Chairperson is often on the talk shows, etc. And what is going to happen when abortion issues come up will our chair sell out Pro-Choice? What about freedom of expression (threatened by the oh-so-euphamistically calling it "flag protection")?

I am torn, if Roemer is elected chair would I desert my party for the Greens or simply refuse to send another penny to the DNC? I would just send money to individual candidates (or Emily's List and other progressive candidate funding sources) instead.

[dethl]

59. Bah, I'm changing parties anyway

The democratic party, along with the DLC, has become to centrist/wannabe-right-wing for my tastes. Joining hand-in-hand with the Republicans on ideologies isn't what I joined the Democratic party for. Sure I'll still vote Democratic most of the time, but if there is someone more left-leaning (3rd party), I'll vote for them. In an age where we need to be moving forward, we seem to be making a great progress backwards.

[nightperson]

60. A link to the Kos Denunciation

here.

[gulfcoastliberal]

91. Wow. So he's also in favor of ending social security

That's interesting.

[JerseygirlCT]

64. He's so NOT the best we can do,

and I'm completely upset and puzzled by the Democratic leadership's need to support politicians like this for leadership positions.

As I've said before, this rightward move is nothing more than lazy thinking on their part -- and lazy thinking is flawed thinking.

[satori]

65. Guy Roemer will Win DNC Chairman but...

Even when Guy Roemer does get seated by the Rove lobby effort, it will be a victory for liberalism. I would encourage people to stay in the party so as to oppose the Rove plants such as Moore, Conyers whom Rove will run every day on the MSM as our great hope for the the future.

But many will defect to the liberal Democrats. A positive liberalism community has not been around for around 40 years now but that is going to change in Jan 6. But it will take some effort and no not the effort of millions on the streets but just perhaps the effort of reading up on the masters of liberalism MLK, Gandhi, and the history of liberalism in the United States.

Turn off the Rove TV hate Rove parade with the Rove propaganda of Moore and Conyers. He will be running those ads 24 hours a day. Simply turn off the TV and pick up a MLK book, a Gandhi book on non-violence because it is going to be a exciting time for the liberalism community.

[Q]

70. That's a pretty strange post...

...calling Moore and Conyers 'Rove plants'. You seem to display the same kind of hatred for liberals as does Rove and his true plants...the DLC.

You also seem to be joining their efforts to plant seeds of suspicion and doubt about Moore and Conyers...who are among the few remaining progressives with a voice trying to strike at the heart of the Bush* fascist regime.

[greenohio]

74. Did he demonize the wrong group of Dems? Help him

out Q. Make sure he goes after the correct ones. He is new after all.

[Q]

79. No. Actually he uses the tactics of the right...

...to divide and spread suspicion and doubt among the left. I notice that you can't help doing the same thing at times when the DLC is being challenged.

I criticized him calling Moore and Conyers 'Rove Plants'...not for cricitizing the 'wrong Dems'.

Since you're defending him...do you agree with his argument?

[greenohio]

82. If he had called the DLC Rove Plants, you would have been happy.

Face it, he criticized the wrong Dems for you and that made you mad.

[Q]

90. Face what?

That you go from thread to thread trying to defend the indefensible? Let's reverse the situation: It seems okay with you that anyone BUT the DLC is labeled as 'communists' and 'Rove plants'.

And all these accusations are made without even a hint of supporting evidence. Moore's a commie? Conyer's a Rove plant? Nothing to back that up except blather from a poster that no one here knows and someone you're so willing to back up because what he says fits your preconceived notion.

This is plain old character assassination. It has nothing to do with the DLC and you know it.

[greenohio]

92. It was Dem bashing that you disapprove of.

Its good to see that you oppose bashing a Dem other than Dean. This is improvement. Now if you would just lay off Feinstein & Co.

[satori]

78. I am a liberal so I know what liberalism is

I know this is a difficult topic for everyone. But it is an issue the Repugs go over and over and over again. I am a liberal 100%. I am not a politician liberal like Conyers nor a Hollywood Liberal like Michael Moore.

One of the tactics the Repugs use to always win is to control the language of the people. It is a political tactic that has been used for thousands and thousands of years over and over and over again.

As a liberal I am trained to spot Republicanism in all forms in the Republican Party in the Democratic Party and in my own liberal party as a liberal Democrat.

I guess what I am saying is that generally liberals define the political landscape and they act to make changes that are for benefit of the social order.

Republicanism however reacts usually in emotional and fanatical ways to circumstances, this is a sad fact and defect in the Republican philosophy and to hide that defect they need to control the language the art thus the culture of the people that are under it's control.

So the first thing they do is attempt to control the art, the language of the people that would expose the Republican defects thru art and language.

Moore would not be such a great so called liberal for progressive causes if he never had Hollywood on his side. The only reason why people think he is a liberal is because the sheeple are brainwashed into thinking so.

Moore in fact is just a garden varity communist. A perfect image of what Rove and the Republicans think liberals are. Conyers is just an opportunist snake oil salesmen politician that has probably never even
read about the history of liberalism but people want to just jump on the bandwagon in hopes that this or that politician or Hollywood liberal celebrity will represent their interests.

[Q]

81. Anyone can call themselve a 'liberal'...

..and more than a few do just that in order to be able 'fit in' as they spread their misinformation. Can it be a coincidence that you have joined with the RWingers and DLCers in their campaign to trash Moore...and anyone else who attempt to expose the widespread corruption of the Neocons and Neodems?

Your desperation is showing now...when you resort to calling Moore a 'communist'. Being a student of history...you would also know it's the oldest ploy in the book to get the people to distrust dissent and protest.

I can give you no ground whether you're new or not...when you throw such trash around and call it serious discussion.

[greenohio]

84. Wow. Am I part of the conspriacy too? Are we paranoid?

Anybody who doesn't hate the DLC are in cahoots with the RWingers.

[satori]

103. Well I disagree

I attempt in all my articles to never resort to name calling because simple logic says that the best way to loose a debate is to resort to name calling.

From my understanding of his philosophy that I read of him he appears to be a Marxist democratic thinker so I simply personally think that a Marxist democrat is a communist. I did not say commie.

I was simply saying perhaps as an after thought from my experience with Moore over at Indymedia during the 2000 Selection that Moore does not have the philosophy that most think he has such as him being a liberal.

I develop my thesis more as a serious discussion of why I think he is a Rove Plant from my experience when he was using Indymedia to run the Nader campaign and because Moore was working full time for Nader and Rove and the RLC paid for anti-Gore Nader ads in swing states.

In fact Rove and the RLC paid more for Nader ads in swing states then did Nader. The Nader Raiders defected because of this to the Greens for Gore Campaign or to the Dems with by and large most of them saying when we joined the Moore Nader campaign we never intended to be working for Rove and the Republican Party.

Moore never objected nor did he defect when Rove and the Republican Leadership Council (RLC) paid for anti-Gore ads http://cheapcpa.bizland.com/Republicans_for_Nader.htm The Nader Raiders did object and defect and they told us they would help us to get Greens to vote for Gore or to have them switch to the Dems or vote Swap in the swing states, I think around 50,000 or more vote swapped with the help of the Nader raiders that defected.

Moore nor did his groupies over at Indymedia do anything but simply refer to those that defected as being Nader traitors. While we thought of the vote swapping between the Greens and the Dems as being the Nader Traders.

I go into more details here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1449654&mesg_id=1451248&page=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=189029&mesg_id=192504&page=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=189029&mesg_id=192059&page=

[satori]

107. More on the the Moore Nader Rove campaign to elect Bush

WE HAVE TO DESTROY YOU IN ORDER TO SAVE YOU--NADER


Naderite Jews Beginning to Move Away From Nader


"Ralph Nader's Green Party called this week for a suspension of United States aid to Israel and blamed the Jewish state for the current violence in the Middle East."

"Democratic activists are calling the Green Party's statement one of the most anti-Israel ever attributed to a party engaged in a presidential campaign."


NADER SAYS HE WANTS BUSH TO WIN


In June of this year reporter Jay Heinrichs asked Nader "if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush."..


BUSH BACKERS BUY ADS FOR NADER IN SWING STATES


Ralph Nader's goal to get George W. Bush elected got a push from a pro-Bush committee yesterday, the Republican Leadership Council.

http://bushwatch.org/october2000.htm
http://outside.away.com/magazine/200008/200008camp_nader1.html

[greenohio]

83. Q is the ultimate judge in who is liberal and who isn't.

Just ask him/her.

[Q]

100. I'm not the one 'judging' Moore and Conyers to be commies or plants...

...so why don't you reserve your self-righteous indignation for someone who would appreciate it?

[greenohio]

118. No, but you judge other Dems routinely.

Which is my point.

[Cheswick2.0]

101. HO HO HO

Is this a christmas joke? Moore is a communist? From a Clark supporter?

[sherilocks]

72. When the left and right move to the extreme

they meet in perfect convergence. Rove plants? Moore and Conyers? (Wo)Man what are you trying to say? Whatever it is, I'm sure that MLK, Gandhi, and liberals in general would ask the same question.

[satori]

80. OK I will answer your question

Back in the 2000 election for president Moore worked fulltime on the Nader campaign, and he used Indymedia quite often for his Nader campaigning. I was over at Indymedia and Michael Moore was a god to them. As soon as I told them that I was a democrat I got hounded as being a liberal. Now for me that raised a flag because I study language and how it is used by a tool for political purposes. How? I do research all I do is read books. Well anyway, I was instantly aware that all I had to do was take away the word progressive or some other word they might use to describe them and compare the rest of the slogan or article they were propagating with say the Freepers over at Free Republic and it was the same message.

They would say that they are opposed to Nazism but I would just take away the word Progressive and look up the language say on a Nazi poster from 1933 and it was in some cases the same exact slogans word for word that the Nazis would use to rally upon to stir up the sheeple to hate the Jews.

Then I would say to myself this is strange everything in their platform sounds so much the opposite of what they are telling me is their political philosophy such as the Green Party platform but of course the obvious next flag that came up is that they say in the platform they are opposed to the death penalty as I am opposed to the death penalty. But then they would say well the Nazis were right in gassing the Jews, that because I was a half Jew by ancestry nothing I could say to them would convince them that I should not just be considered just another Zionist Jew. And in reality I am a Christian a Catholic Pacifist. Well when they found that out that I was pacifist they went thru the roof. And they would say Pacifism will not work that a violent revolution by direct action is the only thing that will change the social order. And they would say that I should not desire to want to be a bad Jew and think of wanting to move to Israel in fact they would remind me that is why they think the Arafat suicide bombers are doing the right thing so as to scare Zionist Jews like me that may want to move to Israel, or to scare Jews from Israel to move out.

And Moore I would guess was on that site quite often and he never was critical of the open anti-Semitism in fact he was always saying that the Gore liberal Democrats are this and that and the Dems are the same as the Republicans.

Well, so then I would explore some more of the Greens and I did see some healthy discussions from them especially the Nader Raiders. They were very informed and when they seen that things in the Greens were getting to wacky for them they defected to the Greens for Gore Campaign or the Democrats. One of the things that the Nader Raiders would say was the primary reason for them defecting was because they had no idea that they would be working for Rove and the Republican Party. For example they would write ads for Nader that were anti-Gore and ads that were anti-Bush but they would inform us that Rove himself actually purchased airtime to purchase anti-Gore ads in swing states and that Rove actually personally spent more on the Nader Campaign ads then even Nader spent on ads. So the Nader Raiders said that they would defect to the Dems or Greens for Gore and work on having other Greens vote for Gore because they never thought they would work for and be paid by Rove.

However, Moore never defected in 2000 he never said anything about the party he was campaigning for in the name of liberalism was being paid for by Rove.

[proudbluestater]

85. It's just sick. It is a slap in the face.

Because of the unprecedented GRASS ROOTS support, Kerry was able to keep even with Bush in fundraising. BECAUSE OF US. And this piece of crap is our reward? I don't think so.

Talk about chasing away your base! In 2000, 20 MILLION single women did not vote. Are they hoping to chase away another 20 million women?

Single women vote Democratic. Married women vote Republican. At least in 2004.

Rather than actually COURTING their base, and this includes African Americans, too, they will alienate it, chase it away, force it to go to a third party, all in the name of raising more money from rich individuals. What they're saying is, we don't want your $20 donations anymore. We're looking for Ranger-type folks who contribute a million instead.

If not Dean, then it's time for an African American or a woman, damn it.

[flaminbats]

93. Russ Feingold..

a pro-gun, pro-union Democrat..the only Senator to vote against the Patriot Act! He's from a state that Kerry and Gore barely won, and he strongly opposed Bush's taxcuts. He'll also re-mobilize our party during the mid-term elections..he'll unite the opposition to the Iraqi war and growing deficits, and unify the opposition to corporate money bribes and wasteful spending classified intentionally!

Like Guy Roemer..Feingold can help Democrats in the Midwest and rural areas, and like Dean he can help raise money..using the internet to promote democratic reforms.

[lojasmo]

116. Nope. Save Russ for the 2008 primaries. N/T

[mmonk]

111. People, people...

racism and militias and extremism is NOT a geographical problem but an American problem. As far as the DNC chair goes, they are going to go for a compromiser because they believe the democrats are losing elections because of war, religion, and middle American values. The problem is because we are silenced and have little voice against hate radio and such. I say never give up your values and fight assimilation because otherwise, we lose.

[lojasmo]

114. lojasmo runst to get his musket.

duck and cover!

[Kahuna]

117. I've got my trust rolling pin.

:D