Do we need a new workers' party?

[leftofthedial]

a "Labor" Party?

I hate to say this, but I feel that the Dems have abandoned the American worker--the working class, the middle class . . .

they, like repukes, now value capital over labor.

[Maple]

1. Absolutely not

and you are confusing the 'working class' with the 'middle class'

The 'factory age' is over.

And the 'middle class' never worked in a factory.

[leftofthedial]

2. the middle class works for a living

they don't live by investing capital

[Maple]

4. The Queen works for a living

but that doesn't make her 'working class'

Old labels, long outdated.

[leftofthedial]

9. do you believe that work is outdated?

I don't.

[durutti]

41. No she doesn't.

The Queen neither sells her capacity to work nor her surplus product to live. And it would be behoove one not to dismiss as "outdated" labels that one obviously does not understand, particularly when such dismissal is the very reason for our current dismal situation.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. The factory age is not over.......it moved to China and India and Mexico

and the middle class certainly did work in factories. Labor is responsible for creating the middle class.

[0007]

19. Are you speaking for Canada and the United States?

[InvisibleBallots]

21. no, the factories just moved to China

At least most of them - here is the way to keep factory jobs in America:

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutaflcio/wip/wip12202004.cfm

BIG BEN DAVIS VICTORY—In San Francisco, 100 Ben Davis clothing workers unanimously ratified their first contract Dec. 7 with UNITE HERE. The two-year agreement brings workers up to the city’s mandated $8.50-an-hour living wage, reinstates vacation provisions, adds personal days and decreases health coverage payments. The company had stopped bargaining early this year and threatened to leave the country if forced to pay the living wage. But it returned to the table following a campaign by union and community activists demanding the company respect the law and the workers, who belong to the UNITE HERE Western States Regional Council.

Ben Davis - not only are they tres cool and ultra-hip - remember "Sporting Ben Davis, shooting at your neighbors" ;) - they are super high quality at a reasonable price:

http://www.bendavis.com/catalog_single/index.html

[KnowerOfLogic]

29. Well, what do you call people who work 40+ hr/wk at poverty wages?

[youngred]

34. It's not over in China

and other developing counties.

While I think the move towards a larger middle class is always good for economies, and agree we have reached a post-industrial economy here in the US it is not in our best interest to completely forgo an industrial base, as we are on our way to doing.

[durutti]

40. Wow. Where to begin?

You're employing a definition of "working class" that defines class by the type of work one does, which is absurd. Following this logic, someone who has a good union job is working class, but a single mom who works at Wal-Mart and barely makes it by is not.

Surveys consistently show that most Americans consider themselves "middle class". Class is, in fact, a taboo subject. And that's just the way elites want it, because then only they can effectively wage class war.

Class definitions that try to provide some arbitrary cutting-off point by income are equally meaningless. The only consistent, useful way to define class is in terms of power.

There is no "middle class", properly speaking. There are only those who own enough capital to live off and those who don't. The former are the ruling class and the latter are the working class.

There are intermediate strata, of course -- professionals, intellectuals, small business owners, workers who own stock, and so on -- but none of these strata have an existence independent of the ruling class and the working class. Rather, they contain elements of both in varying amounts, and so can identify with either. There are no peasants in this country.

Now, the reality is that over the last three decades, living standards have declined, working conditions have deteriorated, and the section of relatively privileged workers -- your "middle class" -- has shrunk. And all these trends are continuing and intensifying, and will until we confront the reality of class.

P.S. The "factory age" is far from over. Internationally, the industrial working class is larger than it ever has been.

[proudbluestater]

The Dems are also abandoning the pro-choice voter.

Soon there will be no "base" left to the party. It's all corporate donations anymore. We little guys who pay the bills no longer matter.

[youngred]

35. and you see this where

praytell?

[proudbluestater]

38. Well, youngred, I see this, praytell, by Kerry and others

saying we should "soften our stance on abortion." I see this in the Democratic Minority Leader in the Senate being anti-choice. I see this in Nancy Pelosi, congressional minority leader promoting anti-choice Tim Roemer to be DNC chair. Any other questions?

[loveable liberal]

3. all employees should belong to a union...and all unions...

should be unified. enough of the corporations owning our country.its time for the people to take it back...

[Maple]

5. Also outdated

Unions are for factory workers, and China is now the world's factory.

[eg101]

11. you do reflect the attitude of the democratic party...

...and of the democratic party activists. And you also demonstrate why it is a party in decline.

[w4rma]

15. Maple is a supporter of free trade, no tarrifs and could really care less

about the lives of regular Americans or about the industries that are moving out of the States to every country other than the U.S.

[InvisibleBallots]

27. the idea of "Free Trade" is outdated

It may have made sense in the past, but things have changed - now it does more harm than good.

[baldguy]

14. Unions are for people who are exploited by their employers.

WalMart is setting the new standard for employee relations, and they treat their workers employees like medieval Lords treated their serfs.

The only difference is that the nobility of old had responsibilities toward their servants - safety, food, health care - that the new American overlords don't feel the need to concern themselves with.

To them, the "little people" don't matter. The very people who do the work to create, produce, build and grow all the US economy generates don't deserve respect, justice or the ability to earn a fair wage for their labors.

If the Democratic party abandons these people - who incidentally make up the majority of the electorate - they will continue to lose, no matter how much they kowtow and brown nose to the corporate elitists.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. do you imagine that business gives you benefits out of the goodness

of their hearts? Unions won you benefits and decent working conditions and if you believe Unions are "over" you can once again say hello to being a serf, you just don't realize it yet.

[0007]

20. junior sez fast food joints are factories, so how come

they have no unions?

Maybe in Canada which is more progressive for the working man than in the U.S.

[durutti]

43. Wha...?

Ever hear of the SEIU?

[chaska]

50. Unions are not limited to factory workers. All who work for someone...

else should have a union. Unions counterbalance corporate power. Workers of all types will continue to lose until we can get a strong union movement again.

[durutti]

42. We need to democratize the unions first.

Union leaders are by and large collaborationist bastards.

[hfojvt]

6. If we do not have the clout

to win in the Democratic Party, then we certainly cannot win elections. What I would like to see is an AAWP - American Association of Working People, perhaps a counter-force to the AARP. Even Bush says that workers outnumber retirees by either 3 to 1 or 2 to 1. Much like the AARP, both parties would be sucking up to the AAWP.

[KT2000]

7. In the meantime

here is some US labor for you:

http://www.nosweatapparel.com

A friend just turned me on to this. Love the attitude.

[InvisibleBallots]

8. I'd vote for a Labor party

Hell I'd pay good money for a Labor party.

[Lexingtonian]

10. Would any workers join such a party?

They've gotten pretty used to voting 'for God' and against their own welfare. If you look at the voting and the rationales given in West Virginia during the last couple of elections, it's pretty sad. Technology has destroyed the jobs of people who weren't taught much and instead they faulted the unions and Democrats, who couldn't do much except say that the world has changed. NAFTA was blamed for a lot, but capital transfer and outsourcing was already being done by the large corporations on the low end of the scale we see now. NAFTA came into being because smaller American companies wanted to remain competitive against the larger ones- it was the facilitating of things already being done via offshore banks, subsidiaries, etc.

I've worked my share of blue collar jobs, and people who work them their whole life are pretty beaten down and can't afford to risk very much- they rarely win gambles, anyway. They're more 'social conservatives' in bad times, more 'economic liberals' in good times. They're not Republicans, they simply resist change. Change is forced upon them and tends, in their view and experience, only to amount to chaos and uncertainties.

Every country now has an excess of labor- and needs to keep corporations producing stuff inside the country in order to keep unemployment down. Political parties have to admit that this mismatch in favor of the companies exists, out of necessity.

[eg101]

12. really?

you wrote:


They've gotten pretty used to voting 'for God' and against their own welfare.


THey couldn't vote for their welfare because the Democratic party was on the side of capital. Clinton even sait so.


If you look at the voting and the rationales given in West Virginia during the last couple of elections, it's pretty sad.


Pretty sad that the Dem party decided to represent only the white collar workers. Oops! Looks like there is now a problem on that end, too.


Technology has destroyed the jobs of people who weren't taught much and instead they faulted the unions and Democrats,



Gee. I wonder why.



who couldn't do much except say that the world has changed.


And pocket corporate bribes.




NAFTA was blamed for a lot, but capital transfer and outsourcing was already being done by the large corporations on the low end of the scale we see now.


And it would be impossible to do somethng about that when your hands are busy taking as many corporate bribes as possible.




I've worked my share of blue collar jobs, and people who work them their whole life are pretty beaten down and can't afford to risk very much- they rarely win gambles, anyway.




They will win when they vote in a angry reform candidate who promises to clean house in DC and put all the thieves in jail.



Political parties have to admit that this mismatch in favor of the companies exists, out of necessity.




Nothing wrong with taxing plutocrat wealth. But I don't hear anything from the democratic party about it. I wonder why.

[xerenthar]

13. Oh no! Capital!

[leftofthedial]

37. Oh no!

Labor!

[zulchzulu]

18. Great idea! Split the workers' vote so that they become irrelevant!

Anything to make the Repugs win hands-down while the Democrats split into little sub-groups fighting each other...and losing ad infinitum.

[InvisibleBallots]

23. The workers vote is already split between the Dems and the GOP

Democrats should hang our heads in shame that so many working class Americans are voting GOP - we are not doing our job.

[zulchzulu]

24. Not a whole lot you can do with Reagan Democrats...

They drink the Koolaid and vote against their best interests. Until they finally see the light and get it, it's like watching the fat guys running last in a long distance race...not a whole lot you can do if the message falls on deaf ears.

[InvisibleBallots]

25. nonsense

I personally know 5 Reagan Democrats that have voted straight-party Democratic since Bush Sr. There is a LOT you can "do with Reagan Democrats" - not insulting them is a good start, and doing something to earn their vote is another.

[zulchzulu]

32. You know some rare Reagan Democrats...good for you!

The ones I know are still shillin' for the Chimp. The fact that they were for Reagan in the first place shows me they are not really the sharpest blades in the drawer.

We're still paying for Reagan's legacy in a bad way. If I dare insult them and not suck up to their finicky and half-witted political savoir-faire, they know where I stand.

This year was a wonderful reminder of how foggy-minded some people are about what Reagan did to this country and the World. Osama and Saddam are two Frankensteinian monsters he spawned. There's much more...perhaps you've seen this animation which illustrates the problem with Reagan:
http://www.awolcowboy.com/reagan

Reagan Democrats can go fuck themselves...they've been doing it to themselves for years.

Here's from the animation:

Thanks Ron
for the War on Drugs
for the Iran-Contra scandal
for the BCCI scandal
for the Pentagon procurement scandal
for backing and arming Saddam Hussein
for funding and training Osama bin Laden
for that boondoggle "Star Wars"
for getting the Religous Right to take over the Republican Party
for being responsible for "trickle-down" economics
for hiring Oliver North
for hiring James Watt
for hiring John Poindexter
for hiring Alexander Haig
for hiring George H. Bush
for firing 12,000 striking air traffic controllers and beginning the weakening of unions
for not giving a shit about your own family but for "family values"
for being a star in "Bedtime for Bonzo" and other crappy movies
for appointing William Rehnquist and Antonin Scalia
for invading the evil island of Granada
for trying to make abortion illegal
for being first to cut taxes by 60% for the top 1% of the wealthy
for being first to increase spending by 80% in only 8 years
for being first to double the deficit
for having home loan interest rates as high as 16%
for being the first to have over 100 members of his administration charged with felonies and other crimes
for uttering the phrase "evil empire"
for calling Berkeley anti-war protesters "campus malcontents and filthy speech advocates"
for uttering the words "welfare queens"
for telling us that "trees pollute"
for releasing mental patients in 1984 and starting a huge homeless problem in the US
for making people believe that you were actually a good leader
for the dead Marines in Lebanon
for saying we would not cut and run in Lebanon before you cut and ran
for telling us that ketchup is a vegetable
for being first to testify Óunder oathÓ 130 times that ÓI donÕt rememberÓ
for being number one for farm foreclosures, bank failures and Savings and Loan failures
for being the first president to have been divorced
for being first to nearly triple the national debt
for falling asleep while visiting the Pope
for pushing for mandatory prayer in public schools
for having 6 letters for his first name, 6 letters for his middle name and 6 letters for his last name

[durutti]

45. There is an awful lot we can do about it.

In particular, advocate genuinely progressive ideas, particularly regarding the economy, healthcare, education, Social Security, etc.

Of course, you oppose any challenge to the Democratic Party leadership. So you're right that there's nothing you can do about it. The rest of us, however...

[KnowerOfLogic]

30. So what? electing Dems is offering less and less return every year,

and that's when they can even get elected; lately their brilliant roll-over, repuke-light strategy has not been working very well.

[leftofthedial]

36. how would it split the vote

the corporatists can vote one way

those who support the middle and working classes can vote another.

[durutti]

44. They're already irrelevant.

Thank the DLC.

[robbedvoter]

22. Got one:

http://www.workingfamiliesparty.org/
Been voting their ticket for years.

[InvisibleBallots]

26. they sometimes cross endorse Democrats in New York

to avoid splitting the working class vote. New York has very good election laws, I wish other states would follow suit. Progressives can demonstrate their power without spoiling elections and allowing the GOP to win. Working Families Party is great - I always vote on their line.

[KnowerOfLogic]

28. You're right; but of course it would immediately be branded as 'communist'

There is a class war going on right now, and the owners and their congressional lackeys have got labor in full retreat. I think that the labor movement is definitely going to have to move from the bottom up; the first step is education of workers, because sadly, many of them identify more with their masters than they do with their fellow workers.

[InvisibleBallots]

31. so? We brand them right back - they support Commie China, Walmart

etc., not us. They call us "communist" no matter what we do, at this point what difference does it make?

"the first step is education of workers, because sadly, many of them identify more with their masters than they do with their fellow workers"

No, no, no! The first step is NOT to "educate" the workers - the first step is to let your fellow workers educate you - on what their issues and concerns are. Then, hopefully we can work together to get the job done.

[durutti]

47. I disagree.

Those of my generation (I'm 21) are too young to remember Cold War hysteria. They're not subject to the same kind of kneejerk rejection of socialism.

[youngred]

33. What we need is new Labor

The labor base in this country began to erode in the 1980s and the Republicans started making money hand over fist leaving the Dems with a huge fundraising deficit. So they sold themselves out on labor issues (free trade, etc) to get the money so they could still fight on social and economic issues.

What we need is a way to reinvigorate labor in this contry for many reasons. First, it helps the millions of unemployed and poor people who could use good, stable factory-type jobs. Secondly, it helps Democrats by having new unions, who are traditionally our strongest shock troops for GOTV and fundraising. Third, it will make the US economy strong and leave us less dependent on foreign-markets (especially usefull if we keep pissing people off).

From this could come a labor re-birth within the party or a third party. However, talk of labor, and class politics is immediately branded "class war" and "socialism" so we need to find a new language to talk about this.

[durutti]

39. Yes. n/t

[durutti]

46. I should add that there already *is* one.

Several, actually. But they're basically only pressure groups for the Democrats.

[welshTerrier2]

48. and the message to workers is ???

right now, capital gains tax rates are lower than tax rates on earned income ... stated another way, the current tax laws place a harsher burden on an earned dollar than they do on gains from an invested dollar ... that's just plain wrong ...

here's how it should work: investment gains should be taxed at the same rates as earned income ...

you should pay taxes based on two things and two things only: 1. the needs of the society and 2. your ability to pay ... the source of your income should not be relevant to the rate you pay ...

and what does the Democratic Party have to say on this issue? where are my fellow Democrats when it comes to standing up against the inequity? what message does my party send to the working people of this country? you tell me ... i haven't heard a word on the issue ...

and don't hand me this "but even average Americans are investors" nonsense ... it's a specious argument ... yes, many Americans invest ... so what !!! the point is that tax rates should be set based on ability to pay ... the point is wealthy investors make far more money than "average American investors" and get very favorable tax treatment on their investment gains ... it's wrong; it's anti-worker; it's class warfare; and the Democrats say nothing ... and it's about time they did !!!

Democrats may still enjoy strong support from the unions but they don't enjoy strong support from all workers in general ... and that, is a critical missed opportunity ... the silence is deafening ...

[chaska]

49. Amen, WT2...

I'm always looking for the bottom line, and as near it as I can get right now is that there is a large and growing group - that used to be the base of our party - who are now unrepresented in government.
This group is being beaten down further and further with each year that passes. What are we going to do about it?

As far as I'm concerned it's a done deal. We are the people's party - we stand with labor. That's what it means to be a Democrat. That's the history of the party. None of us here has to justify this point.

The DLC sympathizers on the other hand....