Dean says usual pendulum swing may not happen easily this time.

[madfloridian]

Dean: "If you want your country back, you have to take it back." Pendulum won't swing easily.

From "You Have the Power", released September this year.

SNIP..."If you want your country back, you have to take it back. Believe me, the right-wingers aren't going to be nice about giving it back."

"We have a tendency to believe that history corrects itself---that if the political pendulum swings too far in any one direction, it will sooner or later swing back......thanks to the basic solidity of our institutions and the commonsense decency of our people."

"There's some historical truth to that, but it's not going to happen now simply because it's a historical trend......it will happen if people like you use their power.....to make change."

And he mentions the danger to the judicial system if Bush won:
"we will not see anything vaguely resembling positive change or Democratic restoration for the foreseeable future."

And the saddest part:
"For at least another generation, we will not see anything resembling the America that so many of us know, and love, and miss."

[tk2kewl]

1. not to mention that every time it swings right

it swings so violently that the whole damn grandfather clock hops along the floor with it

[WithStamina]

2. Interested

What other times in history are you speaking of?

[tk2kewl]

4. The 80s for starters

and then the contract for america too

[youngred]

13. there are many examples

the Catholic church, European monarchies, the Roman empire, Nazi Germany, The US in the 20s-40s.

All of history is the tale of waxing and waning pwer for the left and right with a gradual trend toward the left.

[Career Prole]

15. I'll accept that if you'll accept that the floor is tilted to the right...

...because the clock doesn't seem to slide left at all. :)

[youngred]

17. on the contrary

look at the scope of history and where cultures have evolved from to where they are now. The most recent American example is the vast swing of FDR's New Deal and the follow-ups of the Great Society. This of course has lead to the counter-swing we're currently in, but it does move to the left

[Democrats_win]

3. Deans right. Generation x, y & z have been clocked

and the pendulum is now a quartz crystal--the drumbeat of fascism.

[gumby]

5. "Pendulum Theory" = "Don't Worry, Be Happy"

My reply to the Pendulum Theory has always been to ask where the Pendulum was in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia? Huh?

[youngred]

12. It worked in both

The push of Germany outward lead to a response externally that swept it back (and it did sweep back into one of the most democratic and stable nations on the planet). The pendulum does not always come from inside. In Communist Russia the pendulum swing is even easier to see as the totalitarianism of Stalin lead to gradual weakening and eventually Gorbachev and the elimination of the communist state. Now it's swinging back to the right under Putin because not enough effort was put into keeping it moving left.

[ktowntennesseedem]

14. The pendulum in Germany and Russia did swing back eventually.

But it took so long and the cost was so great; the fact that the Nazis and the Communists are no longer in control is of little comfort to those who did not live to see history "correct itself."

We can wait for history to do its thing again, and it eventually will. But personally, I'd rather work to make it happen sooner rather than later, because I'd like to still be around when it happens.

[youngred]

18. We can't wait for history to do it's thing

The thing is all of the pendulum swinging (in either direction) requires imense effort on the part of people. the movement to one direction or another produces opposition in large numbers who then have to put in the effort to move it back. That is what moves the pendulum

[ktowntennesseedem]

31. Agreed!

Regardless of how the pendulum swings back, it is up to us to write the next chapter of history. We get to decide what efforts, or lack of efforts, will determine how far the pendulum swings to the right, how quickly it swings back, and what kind of shape it will be in when it does.

[mcscajun]

27. That's "the big picture" -- the pendulum swings slowly...

...and we don't often see it complete its movement until it's started swinging in the other direction.

In the long run, things will turn around, whether by activist effort or by reactions to outside forces, economic, military, or natural disasters.

Neither "the big picture" or "the long run" are any comfort, though.

"In the long run, we're all dead." - Economist John Maynard Keynes

[JohnOneillsMemory]

61. The Nazis ARE still in control. Hitler was only one face of fascism.

The financiers and war-profiteers who supported Franco, Hitler, and Mussolini ARE still in control.

Ever heard of a family called the Bushes?
100 years of apartheid, slavery, torture, murder, genocide, eugenics have them riding high as they always have.

The fascist power-brokers are rapidly undoing the swings to the left called the New Deal and Civil Rights right before our eyes.

http://www.surfaceonline.org/essayamerica6.htm
(Neofascism in America)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
(How CIA Wars in Third World Killed 6 Million People)

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/noon.html
(The Nazi Hydra in America)

http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/fascism/pages/14_symptoms.html
(The 14 Symptoms of Fascism)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uop-ur2071703.php
(US Ranks 27th in World for Social Development)

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(Dominionists are Replacing the Constitution With Theocracy)

http://www.bilderberg.org/trilat.htm
(The Trilateral Commission)

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html
(The Secret Team, CIA and its Allies Control the US Government)

http://www.swans.com/library/art6/zig055.html
(US Military Interventions in the 20th Century)

http://www.uua.org/news/2004/voting/sermon_loehr.html
(Living Under Fascism, A Veteran's Day Sermon in Texas)

[Inland]

6. He's right, dems and liberals believe they can quarrel and wait

another term because it is inevitable that we will win out. Well, there isn't anything inevitable about it.

Pubs, conservatives and corporate powermongers have set themselves in local, regulatory and state positions so deeply that it controls the country despite the fact a clear majority dislike the policies and the politicians.

Time to make winning the priority.

[GOPFighter]

7. Yup, that's right

The Repukes know that the farther right they take the country, the more Americans they will alienate, so they're working hard to destroy the mechanisms that can be used to swing the pendulum back.

It took a world war to swing Hitler's pendulum back.

[Fovea]

8. The larger truth

Is that the farther you shove a society out of a state of homeostatis,
the closer you get into pushing it into a new quantum state.

Look at Germany, consider that the violence and hatred of the late 30's and 40's were set up by street fighting and misery in the 20's.

Here in America, it took Vietnam and Selma to push the US to a new level of awareness of its place in the world at large.

Now we have be dragged back to that place. We have a far more draconian, unilateralist (which is a nice way of saying imperialist), than we did in the cold war period. And frankly, the only reason we got away with it in the cold war is the threat of Communism waived like the current threat of terror is waived over the EU.

Coming back from where we are will mean breaking this paradigm, and it won't be a peaceful process, I predict. In fact, I have been thinking there would be a civil war in this decade since the 80's.

We have been subjected to a new movement of know-nothings, based out of the suburbs, who get their two hours hate while breathing their neighbors exhaust, and being told all of that is the 'librul' media's fault. They are squeezing the middle class into peonage, and blaming it on us. That's what's wrong with Kansas, and the entire red America.
Indeed, it is so bad, that they have turned the blues states into lender states.

They will not give back the reins of power based on law, they hold the idea of democratic government and society under law in complete contempt, like the good little Straussians they are.

Bring back the New Deal! Many Americas who supported the contract on America did so because they believe the status quo is working against them. That is easy to fix, make the government work for them again, and tell industry that if they want the American consumer dollar, they will stop whoring the American government.

[tk2kewl]

"know-nothings, based out of the suburbs"

you are so right.

i am constantly blown away by the positions people i grew up with (and consider friends) take toward politics. i can only assume that it is because they don't take the time to understand the issues.

the young son of one friend (who comes from a family of ten kids, so you know he has family members who are financially successful and others who are complete failures) who makes 200Gs/yr recently recovered from a life threatening illness thanks to a bone marrow transplant and chemo. this guy seems to think that because there were a couple of charity cases at the same children's hospital his son was in that any sick kid can and will get transplant surgery and treatment if she needs it. i really don't understand how decent, intelligent people live in these bubbles.

[Bridget Burke]

63. (small note about medical care)

Actually, many of the high-ticket treatments can become available to those lacking funds. Some famous cancer centers were founded as state hospitals & still have obligations to the indigent in their state.

HOWEVER--most of these treatments will only help if given early in the course of the disease. And early diagnosis is problematic when simple medical care is too expensive. I'll bet the parents of the charity cases moved heaven & earth to ensure their children got the care they needed. But they may neglect their own Pap smears, mammograms, etc. So--even if they qualify for care at the big hospital, it might be too late to really help.

[yorkiemommie1]

21. one cannot underestimate the brainwashing that hate radio

accomplishes each and every day. my husband only listens during his 10 minute coffee run each day and he's totally lost. we no longer have any commitment from the media to present balanced news, only the most sensationalist, instigating, aspersion casting slop.

[ashmanonar]

29. although i agree

be careful about the labels you apply...i've grown up in the suburbs, and i already had an idea that something was wrong...it took a poli sci class in college, in another small/medium town to finally make me see the big picture...

i don't take offense, bc its a stupid thing to take offense about...just don't automatically assume things about people

[youngred]

9. because it's not finished moving to the right

unfortunately people are not waking up to the dangers of this swing yet. It has to get worse, or we have to show how bad it's getting in a better way in order for us to start moving back to the left. This is where the effort comes in.

[greenohio]

11. "It has to get worse"

And it will. I'm afraid you might be correct.

[janx]

10. I read that just this morning, MF.

That book is a wonderful collection of very common sense advice. All DUers should read it.

Especially interesting is what Dean writes about the MEDIA.

[hopein08]

20. I'm reading it now...

I got it on the 23rd as a birthday present. I love the book even though it can be depressing and almost scary at times. It makes me want to fight. I also like the compacted history timeline it gives.

[janx]

22. Every once in awhile, too, there's something so very funny

that comes up in the book--I literally laugh out loud!

[madfloridian]

24. Funny like this sentence....

Dean on p. 137:
SNIP..."A reporter on the campaign plane once accused me of being contemptuous of the press. Even though I denied it, she and I both knew it was true."

[janx]

26. YES, and this:

"I soon learned to trust the grass roots. They did occasionally get way out there and do things that turned out to be problems (for example, you can't call the president of the United States a fascist)..." (pp. 156-57)

[madfloridian]

28. I remember that.

Some group made a sign, or something. Only thing is, I hear that more often now.

[XemaSab]

45. That's where

the Good Doctor and I disagree.

Bush is a fascist.
Bush is a fascist.
Bush is a fascist.
Bush is a fascist.

See, I just called the President a fascist....

It was easy, too.

:-)

[madfloridian]

46. LOL But you aren't running for president.

Back then it was not a good thing to do....I think they even passed out flyers somewhere. But his words were "you can't call the president a fascist..." He never said he wasn't one. Just that you couldn't call him one.

:evilgrin:

[janx]

47. Exactly! I laugh so hard every time I read that! n/t

[XemaSab]

50. My english teacher would disagree

Whenever anyone asked "Can I use the bathroom?" he would give them a blank look and say "I don't know, can you?"

I just demonstrated that you CAN call the president a fascist, with little or no difficulty. It may hose my chances for the presidency in '08, but eh, who want to be leader of the free world anyways?

:-)

[madfloridian]

25. He spares no one, no group, not even himself.

But then he offers hope by showing how to eventually fix things.

[madfloridian]

23. It is just plain common sense and practical. Also I got the instant book

From Melville House, just came today. "What We Do Now." is the name.

He wrote a good piece in there as well, and he talked a lot about IRV. He supports and will push Instant Run-off Voting.

[janx]

30. One thing that has struck me about the book so far is that

he emphasizes that out of all of the campaign elements other campaigns copied--the MeetUps, the house parties, the interactive web sites, etc.--the one key concept none of the other campaigns was willing to use was trust of the people on the ground, the grass roots.

He trusted us to make local decisions and come up with our own ideas. It was amazing. And I think that's why we were so amazed and empowered. It truly was a populist campaign.

[tridim]

16. There is no pendulum..

They switched to a digital clock and the software is written by Diebold-ES&S-Triad. It's tough to prove that a closed source digital clock is keeping correct time.

[madrchsod]

19. deans right and the national leadership

doesn`t give a shit. if they don`t do something about ohio then it pretty much means they don`t care who is in charge as long as they get paid. kerry`s conceding was the was the last nail in the coffin of democracy.
dean got screwed

[Eloriel]

32. I love these Dean threads

Right up until the time I have to bump right back into reality, and the thud! keeps getting harder and harder. One of these days it's gonna clean knock me out. If I'm lucky, I sometimes think, it'll be a concussion bad enough to just take me out.

[madfloridian]

33. Reality does hurt.

A little inspiration, then back to reality.

:shrug:

[imax2268]

34. I'm not worried...

after the next four years of the right wing administration fucking everything up...the pendulum will most definetly swing the other way...

[dolstein]

35. Dean still doesn't have a clue

Dean can spout empty catch phrases all he wants. But that message, with was all style and anger and precious little substance, couldn't even attract a plurality of the already left-wing primary electorate. It certainly doesn't provide a basis for building a new popular majority.

If the Democrats want to become the majority party again, they have to convince the American public that they will keep this country safe, build a strong economy, and will promote not only Democratic values of justice, tolerance and equality, but also values like faith, family and work. Howard Dean doesn't understand this, nor does the typical DU'er.

[madfloridian]

36. No, you do not have a clue. We don't need two Republican parties.

But what I fear is happening, is that the two are blending into one Republican party.....because we want to be like them and take the messages of fear they offer.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. and to think Joementum never caught on

still scratching your head over that one?

[Forkboy]

43. we're just all anti-semitic

:)

[janx]

38. Really?

For years Democrats have been afraid to talk about faith or values. We've avoided taking a moral tone or speaking too strongly about patriotic pride. This has played right into the hands of the Republicans, who long ago keyed into something that we are still too nervous to face: Americans are a deeply religious people. A deeply patriotic people. An idealistic and optimistic people who yearn, deep in the hearts, hear and feel things like Reagan's "It's morning in America."

Howard Dean, You Have the Power, page 89.

[NickofTime]

39. Pendulum Must be pushed or it stops from friction

We must push the pendulum now that the Bushites have put super glue in the bearings. Even when we start it moving, the friction will slow it so we must push even harder, again and again.

[Forkboy]

42. Ahhh yes...what's a dolstein post without a stab at the unwashed DUers?

Answer? Most welcome.

[robbedvoter]

40. What pendulum? There have been coups after coups. To believe

in any kind of pendulum at this point in history is juvenile.

[janx]

41. Yep. That's the point. We can't depend on the normal

checks and balances in our government, because they aren't there. And our media are so hosed that we can't even depend on them to inform us accurately.

[madfloridian]

44. And that is why he said....

"if you want your country back you are going to have to take it back." They don't intend to give it back.

[ngant17]

48. pendelum ?

Is there any need for the pendelum swinging back and forth? Why can't it just stay left, in more or less constant degrees. We have the numbers, consistently, every election. A lot of it is individual perception. And the fact that the repugs largely control of all the important sectors of sociey. A minority control over the majority. Not democracy.

I still have hopes for Dean. Clark, not sure. Probably not, I don't care for the military style. You don't have to use guns to be strong. We really have to focus on pacifist issues. The oppposite of terrorist mandates. It's the only way I see out of the nuclear tunnel-vision. Really isn't much time. A mini-nuke and a suicide bomber in Baghdad? Not unthinkable. Probably more likely than any CIA estimate. Are we ready for 1000 dead GIs in one hit? Totally unnecessary. This could have been avoided.

On hindsight, Bill Clinton might have seem really left for the pendelum now, but it didn't seem at all like that, I don't think he went that far when he was Pres., either in the 1st or 2nd term.

Jimmy Carter was further to the left than any of the pack. Of course, I use the Cuba litmus test. Carter was the only president to end the embargo, albeit temporarily. RR fixed it back right up. Hasn't been any deviations since (save the famous Elian rescue, a slap in the face to every rightwinger in America).

JFK immediately prior to Nov. 63 went places that no one has gone before. And probably never will. Can Dean try to go that far?

[janx]

49. If you can, get Dean's most recent book: You Have the Power.

It explains much!

[Andromeda]

51. The Republicans having been working ...

toward a take-over of the government for the past 40 years and they have finally gotten their reward.

They have used every dirty trick in the book to get this power and they won't give it up without a fight.

I can only speculate on who was behind John and Robert Kennedy's assassinations but I have my suspicions. I simply don't buy into the spin and the hyperbole that has circulated about these events. The Warren report is a bunch of bullcrap IMHO.

Nothing has been proven but I don't believe Missouri's candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2000, Mel Carnahan, died accidentally in a small plane crash two weeks before the elections. His opposition was John, I anoint myself with Wesson oil, Ashcroft who was later appointed to Attorney General under Bush.

The same could be said of the death of Paul Wellstone who also died "accidentally" in a plane crash 1 to 2 weeks before the 2002 election.

The timing of these events stink and the worst thing about them is that they can never be proven. These were vital elections that tipped the balance of power in the Republican's favor.

Some people will disagree but I don't believe these incidents are coincidental.

Republican are unethical and dangerous and will stop at nothing to crush Democratic opponents. They have gotten away with being corrupt and immoral because now they hold a majority in the House and Senate and their gains came out of the losses of prominent and popular Democrats who lost their lives working for us.

One by one they are knocking off our Democratic candidates with their lies and scare tactics.

Howard Dean is the ONLY Democrat who has publicly taken a tough and highly vocal stand against these crooks and remained a viable force in the Democratic party.

Dean hasn't been imtimidated like some of the other Dem leaders have been because he's not now in a position where he can get a backlash from Repugs and voters. When he failed to get the nomination he didn't just go quietly into that dark night--thank God.

[zulchzulu]

52. Dean's first item on menu should be electronic voting reform

Anything else about "you have the power" stuff and such sounds like an empty infomercial democracy workout VHS tape.

Front and center...no bullshit...electronic voting reform. Anything other energies are mere feeble, doomed formalities.

[madfloridian]

53. I am going to post something about this later.

In the new instant book he advocates Instant Runoff Voting, which I did not understand at first....but now I am seeing some advantage to it.

No excerpts on line about that part of his entry, so I will have to type from the book which came today.

http://www.melvillehousebooks.com/wwdn.html

[janx]

54. There's a section in this book about it. He's very emphatic about it.

Although the book's title uses an old campaign slogan, there's a lot of substantive information in it.

[madfloridian]

56. I had not gotten to that one yet.

It might be pretty much what is in "What We Do Now".

I skip around in books like this. I am still skipping around in Republican Noise Machine and Trying to get started on House of Bush House of Saud.

I am getting very bad about reading 3 books at once.

[janx]

58. It's near the end.

And it explains IRV, the absolute necessity of revamping the voting process, trails, etc.

You'll see.

[Tinoire]

55. Thanks MadFloridian. We have to push someone like Dean in 2008

I'm sick of the insipid milquetoast candidates they expect us to support.

Send me Dean in 2008 and I'll push him with you. Hard.

Pair him with Kucinich or Feingold and I won't sleep day or night in order to push them.

Our country is finished if it continues this mad imperial, selfish course. I can't bear that thought.

The thing about Dean is that there's a chance for change with him. A brand new direction powered by the people and not the run-of-the-mill milquetoast politicians who can't connect with the people.

[madfloridian]

57. There are couple of heated topics on this going on at Kos.

Of course we all act like we have a choice....which is just plain silly in the long run. I guess it is fun to speculate.

[msongs]

59. took a world war to get rid of the first nazis - thats a heavy pendulum...

and once the fascists get a hold, it may take another to get rid of them this time.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[ngant17]

62. the nazis were part of the pendulum swing?

Having a pendulum swing back and forth sounds kind of harmless. And infers that it has to happen again.

No one but the US had nukes during WWII, and it only used them 2 times. Another war on that scale will likely unleash that madness again. Everyone is getting armed with "nuclear deterrence" now. It can't be stopped by Bush mentalities. It almost guarantees it will happen.

The US needs to go pacifist, but how do you remove the fascists that way?

[mvd]

60. They have so much power that he may be right

It could take a while to get just the House of Representatives back to pass legislation undoing the damage Bush has done.

[ngant17]

64. pendulum tends to always swing right?

Ultra-right conservative Repug, moderate Repug, liberal Republican. The 3 positions of the pendulum? When the Dems get into the White House next time, will they try to fit into one of those positions?

or try taking 3 steps backward, then take 1 or 2 steps forward. You still get nowhere or worse. At the best you are always approaching a stagnant state. Is this progress? You're moving in you walk around in a circle, but you're not going very far and you just get dizzy eventually.