A lot of Republicans are not actually Republicans

[WilliamPitt]

I know a lot of Republicans. Weirdly, I had Christmas dinner with a Representative from the New Hampshire state legislature. I didn't know she was coming to dinner until she came. Die-hard Republican, head of the New Hampshire chapter of the Republican Women of America.

She was also the one who fought the fight to make sure people who leave their jobs to serve abroad in the National Guard have jobs to return to. Before she fixed it, New Hampshire had no law on the books protecting the jobs of Guardsmen who get deployed. They'd leave, serve, and come home to find their jobs gone. She got the law passed.

Her husband was there, also a Republican. He was a retired General in the Air Force and a doctor; told me a story about treating General LeMay way back in the day. He had just run for a House seat himself this time around, and lost by 131 votes. But the woman who beat him apparently lives in New York, and had not fulfilled the residency requirement, so she may get booted and he may wind up in the seat.

They were two of the nicest people I've met, totally engrossed in the work of local politics but doing work that, for a variety of reasons, other Reps don't feel like doing. It blew my mind that New Hampshire had no Guard protection law, and I could tell she was really proud of having fixed that.

My grandfather was also a Republican, and he was an epic human being. He was able to construct utterly seamless arguments for what he believed in. He was a litigator for 60 years, one of the aces in our legal community here, smarter than any three people combined I've ever known. Rock-ribbed Republican, and easily the most honorable and admirable man I have ever met.

I actually know a lot of Republicans, and only a few of them make me want to break a glass and eat the pieces when I talk to them or debate them.

I think a lot of Republicans out there aren't really Republicans, but are hypnotized: By fear, by the television (not the media but the television entire, which stills people and separates people and pacifies people), by racial tensions they inherited with mother's milk (the unavoidable dark side of our pluralism, and a source of so many central problems), by preachers who capitalize on these things for reasons of profit, or any combination thereof.

I think a lot of Republicans aren't really Republicans, and can be convinced that fear is a tool being used against them, that the mind is meant for reading and doing instead of sitting and staring, that the Americans all around them are brothers and sisters and patriots, and that men who preach the word of the Lord with their hands on your wallet are not to be trusted.

We got it light. Imagine trying to overcome a millenia of feudalism and barbarism and dark ages and the absolute rule of popes who acted like emperors and burned people who strayed from the party line.

Yet the Enlightenment happened. They already did the heavy lifting.

[bettyellen]

1. i agree with the word hypnotized bush's speechwriters used a lot of

hypnosis techniques in his speeches. the flat, emphatic tone and repititon.
but will, how do we talk effectively and honestly about educating people when for the most part they don't feel they want or need it and indeed have resentment for your perceived arrogance? i heard this again and again, all the repugs i talked to thought that dems were know it alls and that nuances were bullshit doublespeak. i see nothing short of a MSM takeover reaching most of these people.
how do we open these minds?

[WilliamPitt]

2. Every major social movement in all of history

began with a conversation.

[Chimpanzee]

6. I had a conversation with my 'republican' almost brother-in-law

and he told me that Bush will go down in history as the greatest president since FDR. He gets all his 'news' from Rush, Drudge, and NewsMax. Everyone else in his family is a democrat. Very strange indeed!

[bettyellen]

14. and he thinks rush and faux news is great because they make black and

white, simple arguements. right is right and there's no more to it than that.
we are just to fucking complicated to converse with!

[johnaries]

51. Tell them they're being lazy. Nothing's ever black and white, and if that

is what they're for, they're just being lazy.

Haven't tried this yet myself. I'll let you know what happens when i do.

[xiamiam]

19. the line has been drawn

at this point, you either get it or you dont...im only a registered democrat so that i can vote in the primary...if sheep dont understand the danger we are in..dont want to find and demand truthful news...dont resonate with the fact that the planet and environment are important and women have a right to their own bodies and two consenting adults can do whatever they like in their own bedroom without the governments involvement..that torture is wrong even in war...that we dont have a right to invade another country because we want their oil..that the moral majority is truly a minority...and that America is currently hated by most of the world...then I truly dont give a shit if they are Republican or Democrat...we havent a thing to discuss...

[LibertyorDeath]

70. Bravo

What You said x2

All Neocons are Neocons & all Republicans are Not Neocons their only saving grace imo

and at this point you're either with Us or against Us if you're with Us your political persuasion is irrelevant.


Not all Democrats are Democrats we need everyone we can lay our hands on at this point in History.

[KaliTracy]

13. yes!

[Wisc Badger]

65. Mr Pitt thank you

for you post from a recovering Republican in Wisconsin.:bounce:

[mulethree]

16. Don't forget the dazzling ties n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. I know several Republicans who not only didn't buy into Bush, and

detest him as much as I do. They are intelligent people and realize that their party has been hijacked by the Neocons.

[me b zola]

47. So, is the poll question... no, I don't see a question.

Okay, so I'm stupid. But listen. I believe (but I don't know) that both of my parents were repubs. Dad never said ANYTHING ( he was a WWII vet), & my mom taught me to stand up to authority if it was wrong or was going to hurt me. I have always sought out what we have in common, not what separates us...this is what it is to be liberal!!!!

Strange days . Strange days.

BTW... I'm quite tight.

[Mistwell]

3. Sorry for the dumb question

But I am relatively new here (and, well, a bit tired at the moment). So....what does "pzzzzcheeezzzzz" mean?

[WilliamPitt]

4. Imagine the sound you make

after reading something really, really dumb. Your higher brain functions cease to operate, and your face sinks to the keyboard to produce a loing string of the letter Q. Just before consciousness fades, you hear yourself murmur "Ahhhh...duhhhhh..pzzzzzcheeeezzzzz..." and then all is darkness.

I try to leave a vote for that in case I say something dumb. :)

[Mistwell]

46. Ah!

Okay, thanks much.

Of course, my problem is that I agree with some of your post, disagree with other parts of your post, and am left not sure which vote is most appropriate. But then...I find most poll questions go that way with me, since I parse them too much and end up without a yes or no answer.

So....I suppose the sound might be the most appropriate choice for me.

[me b zola]

48. I'm visualizing you, will...

..face sinking to keyboard. I just don't want to dream about that noise!

[nomatrix]

50. Hmmmmmm,

Sounds like Cat Scratch Fever.

Other symptoms include hullicinagenic dancing, in your underwear, with your air guitar, to the lyrics of bacterium inspired chorus.

Rx - Put the cat out. Rest my friend, lots of rest.

[seito]

5. Do I have to read the whole thing

or can I just answer the poll based on my personal perceptions and possible misconceptions?

[Lostnote03]

7. Are You Sleep Writing?...j/k

......Salient point, "the heavy lifting has already be done"......

[oregonjen]

8. I agree that some are hypnotized

It almost feels like they are in a cult.

[FredStembottom]

21. I am surrounded by so many rabid repubs...

where I work (blue-collar work), and have found them so violently and convulsively convinced of their views that I am forced to just back away and state "we can't talk. You're so completely gone."

"Cult" is exactly the right word for what they are involved in. The absolute certainty concerning how life works is the reward for being in a cult. Finding real answers that actually help solve real problems is not related to this kind of behavior.

It's certainty for it's own sake that these political cult members are enjoying. It's the throwing-off of all questions that feels like a kind of freedom. Especially, if the person has consistently guessed the answers to his own personal life questions badly then, the lure of a question-free life can be irresistible.

[oregonjen]

23. With that question free life, the loss of reason

You can't reason with someone like that. They are not able to think for themselves or for the whole. What they believe is for only them and others who think like them. They end up being destructively selfish.

Welcome to DU by the way! :hi:

[FredStembottom]

26. Correct. It is a kind of "natural high"

..if you will. And you can't reason with those who have really become dependent on this "certainty high" any more than you can reason with an un-recovered addict.

They need to bottom-out from the consequences of what you called the "destructively selfish" behavior - or some other traumatic shock.

I think that learning that their President only holds office due to massive election fraud might supply the right shock!

And thanks for the shout-out!:toast:

[housewolf]

44. They are....

Not a cult exactly, but they are in a trance. Many people have been in a trance ever since 9/11. The events surrounding 9/11 - the attacks themselves, the coverage of it, and the response of our leadership - caused many people to go into a trauma-induced trance. It is not their fault, they don't know they are in a trance. It is a group-trance, much of our nation is still in it. Some day they will wake up but at this point, it looks as though it will take a major shock to wake them up. Then they'll be better able to deal with things.

[incapsulated]

9. Delurking for a moment

Isn't this like the 10th post you made since you said that was it for the night?

You are entering sleep deprived psychosis, man. You start feeling "awake" all of a sudden, but you're not.

Have drink and lay down and you will pass out. Melatonin is good too, if you have it.

For the record: There are moderate Republicans that can't leave the party even if they should, and there are leftist Democrats that threaten to every day, here at least. :)

[WilliamPitt]

10. Busy days like this

my brain doesn't shut off too quick. Don't worry, though, I'm getting dumber by the second. ;)

[incapsulated]

12. Aren't we all?

;)

[demodonkey]

11. A lot of "old fashioned" Republicans have NO IDEA what their party...

has become. Just no idea of the evil. Sad.

[tavalon]

18. A lot of people aren't aware at all

I've always been a voter but until 2001, I wasn't real informed. Now I'm obsessed and sometimes I forget that probably the majority of folks in this country are just like I was, pretty oblivious and just living their day to day existence.

[johnaries]

15. Compromise is the reason our Constitution is as Great as it is.

Will, dude... are you gonna sleep? I'm worried about you. I know things went nuts the minute you took a break, but you are only human. Sleep, rest, because we'll need you MORE tomorrow!!!! (oh, sorry, not a very relaxing thought, huh?)

[smartvoter]

17. I tend to think of this the other way around: THIS CREW is not Republican.

So much for fiscal responsibility, states' rights, citizens' privacy, small government and so on. Too many people get caught up in the party win and the Dem loss to see how far they are from their own platform.

It's downright amazing how far you can get, and how much you can get away with, when you run around saying "god" all the time.

[housewolf]

42. William Buckley & his son

Christoopher Buckley, we on C-span ove the weekend. It was a presentation done at the Goldwater Institute in Phoenix, sort of a reprisal of Wm. Buckley's PBS show "Firing Line" with him hosting and his son, Christopher, as he guest. Both communicated deep unhappiness with the current policies of the administrtion, claiming that they are not conservative policies, worried about the path the Republican Party is on. It was interesting to watch.

[cyn2]

20. I said I disagree because...

Old republicans--pre-Reagan--had a reasonable way of looking at government. They didn't want a government that interfered too much with living....the platform was completely different than it is today. Yes, they were the "loyal opposition" then instead of "the enemy"...being a republican stood for strong national defense and a lot of other admirable traits (as well as things not-so-admirable).

So, I think the people you refer to, the decent republicans, are from the "real republican" school, not this perverted conglomeration that taunts us today.

[NVMojo]

22. I agree, cuz the Republicans in Nevada who are sucking at the

public trough these days is astronomical....

[KoKo]

24. It depends on the area of the country one lives in. In the Northeast

there were many educated Republicans like those you shared Christmas Dinner with and your Grandfather. I had friends like that when I lived there.

Where I am now,in the Southeast, there are not so many who are well educated and tolerant at the same time and they have not become my friends. It's the influence of some of the churches, plus the Limbaugh onslaught and the more cohesive, "get along with folks and don't make waves" attitude of most of the Southeast.

I wonder how your Republican friends feel about Social Security, Labor Unions and Medicare, though. Even my best Republican friends in the Northeast were not approving of FDR's New Deal. Although we never argued about it, the way I would with Republicans down here. That was always the big difference between me and my Republican friends...I knew what FDR did for the South during the Depression..I was always a Democrat and until recently proud of it without feeling I had to wear it on my sleeve or apologize.

Thinks certainly have changed. There's so much anger or apathy out there...not much in the middle.

[VTGold]

25. Poor things - the Christian Conservative Club bus been highjacked...

...but they don't seem to notice it yet.

They'll twig on though - and they will be our best buds.

I've already seen a few signs - there was this great Editorial last week - entitled: "I Am A Conservative Christian,
And The Religious Right Scares Me, Too"

http://www.covenantnews.com/baldwin041215.htm

[troubleinwinter]

27. I am thoroughly frustrated at the "media".

I think that everything you say is right, but if a person listens to Limbaugh's yack in the car radio, then watches cable TV "news" ... they are being told that the wild libs are baby eaters.

I can't figure out how to get around or through this problem, so that people can at least get both sides and make a sensible choice.

[WilliamPitt]

29. My great-grandmother from Alabama, my father's grandmother,

was fundamentalist Baptist, and thought Catholics killed babies with pitchforks. Seriously. That's what she'd been told. My dad married my Catholic mom, and she met my great-grandmother for the first time. The two of them talked all day, with my great-grandmother querying my mom on the mysteries of the Catholic faith and the vagaries of bayonetting infants.

It didn't take long for my great-grandmother to figure out that most of what she knew was balderdash, and the two of them became good friends. That old lady actually saved my life once. I was crawling around on the floor and swallowed a leaf, and began to choke. She hung me upside down by my feet and whalloped my back until the leaf popped back out again.

Every social movement in the history of the world began with a conversation.

[troubleinwinter]

32. Well, that's sorta my point.

"conversation".

It is difficult for conversation amongst people (as a nation) to start when most are being fed only one viewpoint by the popular media. Everything seems so skewed to a particular side, that "discussion" seems out of the question.

I do know that if someone is in your kitchen, you can talk about things. But how do we talk to citizens across the country?

[WilliamPitt]

34. One person at a time

Best I can tell you. It's daunting, to be sure. But I think of that story of the guy walking down the beac, who picked up a starfish that was dying in the sun and put it back in the water. Another guy behind him saw that there were dozens of starfish dying on the beach, and said, "Why bother? There are so many of them. It won't make a diference." The first guy looks at the starfish he resuced and said, "It made a difference to that one."

[troubleinwinter]

37. Wonderful story!

I live in "the wine country" of northern California and don't know any Republicans. Even my old-lady internet pals in FLA, Maryland and Tennessee are Dems. My family and in-laws are. So I will hafta figure out how to find me a Repub somewhere.

Give the bastard the peanutbutter jar and go to bed.

[Debs]

72. When my wife

first began really trying to understand the political situation in the world, she kept saying its so big, how can we ever make a difference. I told her I understand, its like trying to drain a swamp with a teaspoon. The thing is we need to have faith that we arent the only ones with a teaspoon. That incremental changes are still improvements and that if one person is helped the world is a better place because of it. If it all works out long after we are gone it still justifies our efforts. That what is required is that we do whats in front of us. Apathy is the enemy and its a formidable one.

[roguevalley]

28. agree because it would seem so, right? Then there are the only

republicans in my entire family history, a series of aunts that lived in New Hampshire, called Black Republicans, that is, they would ONLY vote for Republicans, even if they were satanic. All kinds of republicans and I miss the ones you speak of. THey are not speaking out for the direction of their party and as such, they are tarred with guilt for what the fat heads do.

[LittleClarkie]

30. I agree but with a correction

I think it's important to remember that there are social conservative Republicans and fiscally conservative Republicans, moderate Republicans and even the occasional liberal Republican (remember John Anderson?)

The Kerry-voting, fiscally responsible, anti-war Republicans are our friends. Many are appalled at what their party is becoming. The yahoo group I hung with had a motto, "Country before party."

So a person can still be a Republican, be sane, and be with us in this fight.

[Old and In the Way]

31. It's an identification issue for some. A lifetime investment of

being a loyal fan. Sorta like a Red Sox or a Yankee fan. Both love the game of baseball, but neither would wear the other's colors. People have a tendency to make their political party affiliation lifelong. It's a self-defining label we place on ourselves.

Personally, if the tables were reversed and it was a Democratic administration and its well connected financial backers sucking the US Treasury dry and spilling American lives in the ME quagmire, I'd have left the Democratic Party many, many moons ago.

The true believer" Republicans who probably imprinted on Dwight "Ike" Eisenhower, must be ruminating on his warnings about the MIC and are beginning to undergo their own political crisis of faith right now.

Which leads me to wonder, just how many people really voted for this criminal administration?

[Wilms]

39. A lot less then we know. nt

[AgadorSparticus]

33. i completely agree. i think there are many republicans out there

that have been suckered by sophisticated marketing that targets their fears and ignorance. and no doubt, the american populace is targeted--like prey.

i don't see them coming out of their haze unless something dreadful happens to them personally. and even theb, for some, i don't think they have the mental capacity to see beyond the simplistic nature of the propaganda the RW dishes out.

[gumby]

35. Your query may be a symptom

of the two-party, winner-take-all (now totally dishonest) system we use in an attempt to govern ourselves.

Where does one go except R or D without "throwing their vote (or allegiance) away?"

A lot of people supported Perot for this very reason. But he was a "celebrity candidate" like I think Nader has been; there is no party or infrastructure behind them. So one has to make an either/or choice.

It is unfortunate, however, that "old-style" Republicans can not seem to reject the Evil that is now upon us.

[Mojorabbit]

36. Both my parents are republican

My dad is in his late seventies and has been a rep his whole life. Both of my parents voted for Kerry this time. First time ever not voting republican.

They are scared to death at what has been happening to this country. My pop says that true republicans are fiscal conservatives and this administration is anything but, he was incensed about the medicare
drug benefit legislation and esp about the patriot act and the war.

I think there are a lot like him out there. Good people. Old style Republicans that can be reached.

[shiina]

38. Polls on issues show most agree with Democratic positions

It's practically a fact. Polls show people have very Democratic ideas about education, health care, etc.

more spending in inner cities 60%
more spending and regulation of the enviroment 75%
more spending on education 75%
more spending on healthcare 75%
increase in minimum wage 78%
stricter gun control 80%
campaign finance reform 80%

This is from a video called "Constructing Public Opinion". You can see the preview (in which this study is mentioned) at http://www.mediaed.org/videos/CommercialismPoliticsAndMedia/ConstructingPublicOpinion.

[Niche]

41. I'd give anything to talk to a Real Republican again....

instead of brain washed ditto head or self absorbed neo-con.

[sandnsea]

43. Liberal Republicans

Liberal in the enlightened sense of the word, progressive TR type Republicans. The north did used to vote Republican regularly, after all. I hear Christie Todd Whitman has a book coming out that's ought to be a real eye-opener. Or, they could be free market capitalist Republicans, socially intelligent if not completely progressive, but truly believe any government interference in the economy, particularly through social programs, is communist. I'd bet if you spent more time with them, you'd seriously part company on some core issue that would draw a clear line between Democrat and Republican. Still, if we could get these people to claim their more liberal inclinations, maybe we could stop some of the worst of what the Bushies want to do.

[vision]

45. Ever been to Kansas?

Kansas is overwhelmingly Republican. There are many decent people there that are Republican but I think for the wrong reasons. Some are racist but others are not instead they are worried more about guns than butter.

Many bought into what Reagan sold them and still think that is what Republicans stand for, what it "appeared" that he stood for not what he actually did.

[Hippo_Tron]

69. Kansas doesn't have too many racists

Southern states definately do, but Kansas doesn't. Just crazy christian fundies.

[salin]

81. But just like every where... they do exist, even in Kansas

back in the eighties a friend and I were driving her new car across the country. Stayed at some relatives home in Kansas (Salina... pronounced Sa-lie-na, as opposed to Sa-li-na that is in California). This gentlemen spoke of blacks as having that "shiny" look on their face that was "blank" and "showed little to no intelligence." Just had to eat my tongue out of respect for my liberal friend (you can't choose all of your relatives.)

Then again a few years later I heard the brotherinlaw of a good friend in Chicago make statements that were even farther over the line. When no one responded (we were dumbfounded by his statements) - he idiotically repeated himself - as if when we "really" heard him we would think he was really clever...

Spent time in Alabama a few years later - and yes the racism expressed was a bit more common place - it was no more ignorant that what had been expressed in these more "northern" places.

[Dover]

49. Anything that reminds us of our common humanity will be stronger

than those things which divide.

I think part of the friction is really a battle over whose 'reality' is the correct one or will prevail, as it's very disconcerting to feel that one's perceptions can be so off center from that of others. I blame much of that on media manipulations and propaganda wizards who have helped to create this artificial fissure, although more esoteric explanations may also be relevant for this national "quake" in our collective psyches.

How many times have you just stared blankly, dumbfounded by a Republican's explanation for events? The separation in realities is absolutely earth shattering.

So all political and idiological issues aside, it certainly feels like we are fighting for the reality upon which we base our very existence. And yet it seems elusive and shattered. So by focusing on those aspects of reality we still share we are reminded of and grounded in our deeper human bond. It does no good to try to bludgeon the other person with OUR reality directly, because that feels life threatening.

[Debs]

73. That works both ways

I remember having a conversation with a long time friend who I know to be an intelligent person. This was during Reagan and we were talking about whether Nicragua had MIGs. I told him there were no MIGs when he asked why I said look how expensive they are and how long would they last if Nic flew them? Then I told him what would we do if we found for certain they had them. He replied that we would bomb them to smithereens, Do you think they know that? All this was fine but then I said lets say they DO have MIGs. We are violating their airspace everyday to supply the Contras right? Do they have a right to self defense against us? At that point I could see on his face that he could no longer understand me. I had gone aphasic. Like I was speaking in some dolphin language he couldnt even hear. He could tell I was saying something but he couldnt even begin to comprehend what. Yes the reality thing is big. I think it has to do with long held assumptions that the listener is unwilling and even unable to question

[Dover]

82. This thread is all about creating a 'new reality' or as Cheney called it

the "new normal".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2876040&mesg_id=2876040

[juajen]

52. I agree. I have some family members that are neocons, but some

think they are republicans, but really aren't. Also, I have a best friend that voted for *, but visits prisons on the weekend and takes homebaked cookies. She is truly a compassionate conservative.

[WilliamPitt]

53. .

[Walt Starr]

54. I disagree

and will leave it at that.

[MADem]

55. I don't think there are many Republicans out there anymore

The "limited government, limited spending, state's rights" types.

Their collars no longer match their cuffs, and their purses are HUGE. It's progressives/Democrats vs. the stupid, the greedy or the insane, near as I can tell.

Tacky folk, and I'll never vote for one. They've shown me that they just cannot lead, that they are thieves in the hands of big business, and they wouldn't give you a cough drop if you were hacking your lungs out.

I'll vote for Bozo the Clown (D) over Mahatma Ghandi (R), if it came down to that!!!

[Walt Starr]

56. IMO, Republicans are superb at putting on their "normal" face

when inside they are as evil as evil can be.

Just my experience with 'em.

[txaslftist]

57. That's a bit harsh, but...

I understand totally. What I've found is that I just can't talk politics with a republican. My dad and brother and I used to talk politics often, with a sense that at some deep level we shared some common understandings. I don't think that's true anymore. They both voted for shrub and I cannot even talk to them about it. It just seems in my mind to go against all that my father taught me. My dad fears the kind of over-arching of the left that he saw in the 60s, my brother...well, I just don't get him at all.

Me, I saw the TV special "The Holocaust" at a very young and impressionable age, and since then I've always been very wary of hyper-nationalism. It certainly CAN happen here (although probably not, dear reader, to YOU). I fear the right.

[Walt Starr]

59. I don't pull punches any more

To me, anybody who votes Republican knows what they are doing and are doing it because, deep down inside, they are evil to the core.

[IndyPriest]

76. I don't think so. My old time NY dem-bro voted for schrub...

because he's been scared to death after 9/11 and the constant marinade of fear Bushco has been stirring up. Never underestimate the power of fear to persuade.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

58. No Koolaid for me, thanks.

If the cult-like zealots that have staked their claim to this fiscally irresponsible and socially repressive Republican party are the TRUE Republican party of today, then more and more moderates will abandon them. I, along with many moderate Republicans in PA, voted for Kerry. We did not partake in the Koolaid festival of the new Jim Jones Republican party.

[wadestock]

60. The MAJORITY are not "Republicans"

50% or MORE are not tuned in....they are the "manipulated"....and they are growing in numbers everyday as the freepers find new and innovative ways to lie to people. As the country progressively dumbs down, this alarming trend may continue until a threshold of pain forces people to open their eyes. Included in this category are:

a. gun owners who are convinced the dems will take their guns
b. pro-lifers that think dems believe in abortion
c. go-getters that think being "republican" serves as a means to gain some sort of business "edge".
d. anyone who is confused into thinking that the freepers actually stand for anything other than pure greed. In this category are many "Reaganites" that really think Reagan brought down the Soviet Union and gave us prosperity.

Lies, fear mongering and misinformation have been key tools to get many of these people into the "party". Unfortunately, of all these people who fall into the category of being generally stupid and wanna be success stories, they still haven't figured out the basic equation that THEY actually less of a chance on average of getting anything positive out of the Repukes. It's essentially the "AMWAY" law of diminishing returns for the majority of those involved.

Possibly the other 1/2 of the party have some convictions that business can provide a better way, that tax breaks are good, or that social programs represent some insidious problem in our society. They have such ideologies because of inherent beliefs in the system, structure, those in power, etc etc.

All in all, it is a party of confused people that don't realize the simple fact that only a select few at the top are getting the rewards, and that those select few become an increasingly smaller and smaller percentage. Data on the progressive distruction of our middle class is very well documented and available in open literature... and still they don't get it.

Thank much of the success of how the worst elements of the party managed to rise to such power today to Reagan and aborption of neocons into the party because of its power and ease of takeover. Because of all of this...we will soon see that "trickle down" not only trickles....it inevitably has to face the light of day....and dry up.

[Donna Zen]

61. Deception in labeling:

When participating in any political conversation with a known republican, I start with my hands opened and these words: I think we agree more than we disagree; it serves the purposes of those who "hoodwink" us to keep us from understanding that.

Admittedly, sometimes the points of disagreement are too important to either of us to surmount; but most of the time, this approach proves true.

No one I've ever talked with approves of the role of "special interests" in government. I'm talking about the big buck lobbying kind. No one I've ever talked with wants to live in a filthy country even if they disagree about global warming. We all support the troops. We all support the Constitution and I've never met anyone who is 100% behind the Patriot Act. I have never, ever, spoken to one person who thinks that this deficit spending is good. There are many levels one can connect, but mostly, it is proving to them that no matter what Rush says, we too are normal.

I'll skip to the end of a successful conversation. I tell them that the country needs to hear from both sides in an honest debate; therefore, I miss the republican party of fiscal restraint and social justice. I can say this because it is the truth.

BTW, my sister, a life-long republican, voted for Kerry. According to her it was all about the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court. She understands Roe v Wade is case law settled on the rights of privacy and fears what this will mean legally if it is overturned.

[ieoeja]

62. But do Democrats actually exist?

I have never met the Democrat most people I know believe exists. Most people I spend time with call themselves Republicans. And they typically vote Republican because of what "Democrats believe, support or say".

And I freely admit that I would never vote for a Democrat who believed, supported or said what they claim. Thing is, I never met a Democrat who believed, supported or said what you just claimed. So I ask of them, "name just one such elected or nominated Democrat".

They never can. I then do the reverse, toss some quote out there with which I know they disagree ... then give the name of the elected Republican official who said it and the context in which it was said. As I keep asking these people, "why do you insist on believing what some complete stranger in the media keeps telling you liberals want, yet disbelieving what I, a bonafide liberal whom you actually know, keep telling you what it is I and my like minded cohorts really believe? Especially when you can never give me the name of this supposed liberal of whom the media guy is talking?"

Or the simpler, "you are always letting Conservatives tell you what Liberals believe. I bet if you let Liberals tell you what Conservatives believe, you wouldn't care much for Conservatives either. Maybe you ought to let both sides speak for themselves. And LISTEN to both sides before making up your mind."

[lojasmo]

63. And a lot of democrats aren't really democrats.

I've always considered myself a democrat, and I've always voted for democrats, but at heart, I know I'm a green.

[jonnyblitz]

64. A lot of Democrats are not actually Democrats. n/t

[leftofthedial]

66. I judge them by their votes and their actions

kudos to the lady for helping the Guard people.

But they vote for fascism, they are fascists.

[MuseRider]

67. Yes, you are correct.

I live in Kansas, I used to get around more than I do now. Still where I live is in the area of highest population, the NE part of the state. I have so many friends and aquaintences who strike me as solid Democrats who are Bush** supporting Republicans through and through. They are populists, they believe in live and let live, do not hate gays or foreigners and are forever suspicious of "the man" yet they turned out even after proclaiming that Bush** is awful and voted for him. I have been punching myself in the brain about this, trying to figure it out. They don't even know the answer...didn't like Kerry. Why? They don't know. Don't like those Democrats. Why? Lots of reasons that make no sense and are easily refuted. After making sense to them and you ask again, they are still voting Republican. Why? They don't know. I will never give up but I want to. Every day I feel like I have hit the wall out here. There is nothing but RW radio and TV and people and rhetoric that would make a sane person cry. It has become hell. Why? Hell if I know.

[proud patriot]

68. I feel about my Grandfather just as you do yours Will

I know no other who is smarter or more honorable .
He graduated first in his class at Harvard Business.
Debating him has always been difficult because he's
so smart . I love him dearly and feel I'm partially
who I am today because of him . And Am blessed to still
be able sit with him and learn from him .

We don't get mad at each other anymore , he just laughs
saying "the enemy" while he hugs me in greeting, and I laugh
and return a kiss on his cheek saying " yep , straight
to Guatanamo with me ."

My Grandfather hated poppy and feels no different toward
jr. but he couldn't vote for kerry . I still wonder who he
voted for .

[THUNDER HANDS]

71. all the Republicans in my family are Republicans because

that's how you got jobs in Nassau County. It was a machine and if you wanted a job here, you got connected with the local GOP.

The only exception to this is my uncle Johnny, whose been corrupted by his psychotic wife and been brought over to the dark side. This happened quickly after 911 and now he's a full-fledged Bush supporter who wouldn't talk to the family before the election and now can't wait to see us.

[Debs]

74. A conservative I work with

Is very religious. Freely admits that the GOP attack on the poor is unbibilical. Yet nothing bad said about Bush can be true. No evidence or proof is acceptable. Bush never lied no matter that I can produce strait out verifiable lies he told. Bush is a good Christian man yet he cannot tell me why Bush who rarely goes to church and spent most of his life as an obnoxious drunk, deserves to be seen that way more than Kerry who has been religious and a regular churchgoer all his life. There is this tendency to just get stubborn. His capacity for self delusion is astonishing

[Mend]

75. Mussolini, the fascist, got the trains running on time,

So what? Just because these people have done some admirable things, that doesn't change their rotten core. Truth, beauty, and justice aren't that hard to see but the mind and its defense mechanisms, including denial and rationalization, easily bind the guilt and anxiety. I am totally unimpressed by these people who can blank out their humanity except in certain circumscribed circumstances.

[jonnyblitz]

78. exactly. n/t

[WithStamina]

77. Agree in part

I supported Bush after 9/11 and became a hardcore Republican. However, I became more of a conservative than a Rebpulican. I believe that many people are waiting for true intelligent, fiscal conservatism from Bush. They believe that it's coming. Therefore, they will continue to support the president.

Very few Republicans, for example, agree with Bush on immigration. I don't think it's fear that's keeping Republicans in line, but rather hope.

[depakid]

79. I completely disagree

To be a Republican today you either have to be:

1. Ignorant- whether willfully or because you're just plain dumb; or

2. You have to support a majority of Republican positions for ideological reasons.

At this juncture, there are no good Republicans PERIOD. If they are intelligent and informed and still choose to associate with that party- the party of Bush, Delay and Frist- the party with no respect for science, law, tradition- the party without one iota of integrity, then there's something wrong with them.

Maybe you can't see it on the surface- but trust me, it's there.

And if you turn your back on them- they'll stab you, every time.

[InvisibleBallots]

80. yeah, wealthy Republicans and Democrats hanging out together

for dinner - no, that's not the whole problem right there :eyes:

These wonderful Republicans vote to impoverish my family - fuck 'em, I wouldn't let them in my house.