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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:00 AM
Original message
Puke Alert: Bush as great as Roosevelt
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6728160/site/newsweek/

<snip>

Although it can easily be argued that George W. Bush and Tony Blair face a far lesser challenge than Roosevelt and Churchill did—that the war on terror is not a third world war—they may well, with the passage of time and the opening of the archives, join the ranks of Roosevelt and Churchill. Their own societies are too divided today to deliver a calm judgment, and many of their achievements may be in the future: when Iraq has a stable democracy, with Al Qaeda neutralized, and when Israel and the Palestinian Authority are independent democracies, living side by side in constructive economic cooperation. If they can move this latter aim, to which Bush and Blair pledged themselves on Nov. 12, it will be a leadership achievement of historic proportions.

The leadership of Churchill and Roosevelt in the second world war was conducted in such a way that only many years after the war were its true parameters clear. This is also true of Bush and Blair: only when the secret telegrams and conversations become available will we really know who did what, who influenced whom. Before the war against Saddam Hussein, Blair's emissary Sir David Manning was flying almost weekly to Washington, but it may be many years before we know what decisions were reached during these journeys. Any accurate assessment of Bush and Blair must wait, perhaps a decade or longer, until the record can be scrutinized.


<snip>
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Not_Giving_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gag, gag, gag!
How in the world can this bumbling idiot be compared to Roosevelt?
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freedom_to_read Donating Member (623 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. crapola
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 11:08 AM by freedom_to_read
"only when the secret telegrams and conversations become available will we really know who did what, who influenced whom. Before the war against Saddam Hussein, Blair's emissary Sir David Manning was flying almost weekly to Washington, but it may be many years before we know what decisions were reached during these journeys. Any accurate assessment of Bush and Blair must wait, perhaps a decade or longer, until the record can be scrutinized."

Only when the records of Bush authorizing torture, privatizing the military, and diverting money into the accounts of his rich chronies, come out, will we finally accept the depths to which he has brought our country.

Bush and Blair = Churchill and Roosevelt, GMAFB!

A much better comparison, IMHO, will be to McNamara, Nixon, et al., who brought us into a different quagmire based on the same kind of fuzzy ideological thinking & lack of true understanding of the physically and mentally destructive nature of warfare for both sides.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I like Martin Gilbert
He has written some great books...but in this case he is full of shit! I agree...more like VietNam leadership than WW2.

If there were secret memos and such the Bushies would have leaked them for their own political gain. Unlike Roosevelt and Churchill, Shrub and company only care about their own political fortunes.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Yeah, everytime a secret comes to light Bush looks worse than ever
The more information we have, the dumber Bush looks. The more we know about 9/11, the worse he looks. The more we know about WMD, the worse he looks. The more we know about Gitmo and torture, the worse we look. The more we know about how our troops are without armour and supplies, the worse he looks.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. A faith based analysis
pay no attention to what you see actually happening--after all, Blair and Bush people couldn't have met weekly without coming up with something really, really great! I mean, how can subordinates meet weekly without something super-duper coming out of that sort of hard, hard work! And of course, the less we can guess at what that boon to humanity could possibly be, the more supercalifragilisticexpedalitious it has got to be!

After all, it could never be that the US could actually be run by people as craven and incompetent as the Bush administration seems to be. God would never put a greedy, idiot, selfish killing bastard in charge of the US, so who you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes? Oh, how comforting it is to know that all the amazingly good things that are occcuring right know are top secret, and only the shit is floating to the surface--what other explanation could there possibly be? What else could explain that everything looks like its on the downward spiral?

Therefore we should vote for Bush and Bushlike people for the next 80 or ninety years, since it is an unfailing truth that the shittier a leader seems to be today, the greater history will find him to be in some other century. Therefore I am voting for a Delay-Santorum ticket, because that is what seems the worst and therefore must be the best in the long run. And if I am wrong and the US fails, I'll pay you one million dollars in 2404.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Wow! I bow to your rant.
I thought mine was vicious. (see below).
Lou
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hats off to that rant. Nice work. LOL. nt
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wolfgirl Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. ugh....
:argh:
:puke:
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Bush was AWOL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Total trash
I don't understand how any educated individual could make such a comparison.
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. EXTRAORDINARY Crapola! Roosevelt united, 'W' divides..nuff said. nt
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. "assessment of Bush and Blair must wait, perhaps a decade or longer"
By then, neocons will be writing their own assessments-along with their own version of history. We will be forced to sing songs to the 'bush as Christ' legacy. The Pledge of Allegiance will contain new passages (by Constitutional Amendment) praising bush as our leader and saviour. Every state will have cities named after him and streets, stadiums, parks, schools, airports, museums, cemetaries, and landfills named after him. Sorry about the rant, must've got up on the wrong side of paranoia this morning.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. Never
ever. :puke:
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Interesting article
on the neocon Churchill cult with reference to Sir Martin Gilbert:

http://www.antiwar.com/spectator/spec280.html

"I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.’
Winston Churchill, 1919
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. Yikes...
Grateful I teach High School English...I'd have to take a sick day if I had to teach this crap...
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4_TN_TITANS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. GOOD GOD.......
Talk about a blind, over-optimistic idiot... Is this guy even based in the US? Given the "Sir" prefix, I'd assume that he's over in Britian somewhere. How friggin' ridiculous!!! :puke:
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. Roosevelt and Churchill???
Hitler and Chamberlain would be a much more accurate comparison. Or even Hitler and Mussolini.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Bush team is desperate to be compared with FDR et al
In fact, whenever possible, the administration likes to link itself with FDR and with Truman, and even goes further than that at times, suggesting that the current administration's performance is SUPERIOR to that of the Roosevelt and Truman governments in areas such as the Marshall Plan. I am not exaggerating about this. Look at some of the briefings and speeches sometime. The members of the administration crow about being ahead of schedule on the postwar work, unlike those slackers deployed by Marshall and Truman.

But they ignore the fact that the war is not over; that Saddam Hussein, revolting as he was, did not create human misery on the scale of a Hitler; that there is no peace treaty or armistice day; that Bush was ready to strut on the deck of the ship with a "Mission accomplished" sign just BEFORE he made cannon fodder of hundreds of young and not so young American service members and God knows how many others.

They ignore the fact that both the U.S. and British governments asked stern sacrifice of their people -- rationing, air raid practice, etc. Bush has given a windfall to the very wealthiest, turned a blind eye to the suffering of millions, and encourages consumption, not frugality -- unless it's the budget for social service programs.

Certainly history will judge, but God help Martin Gilbert if he is addle-pated enough to mention Bush in the same breath with Roosevelt. Bush isn't fit to push Roosevelt's wheelchair or fetch golf balls for Eisenhower, let alone claim some share of history's glory.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. Gilbert's admiration for Churchill...
Edited on Tue Dec-28-04 01:24 PM by Davis_X_Machina
...is tied up with Churchill's support for Israel, and this has colored his assessment of Bush, Blair and the war.

Se Spectator article here

On edit -- seems a few people have already identified Sir Martin's axe-to-grind....
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. Great as Roosevelt??? Yeah, ALICE Roosevelt
Looked fab in a blue gown and liked to get drunk and jump in fountains!!!!

Read some of Alice's quotes, they share many of the same philosophies (Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches, e.g.). http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/alice_roosevelt_longworth.html

The only difference really is that Alice was a much more polished speaker, she was more fun, and she was NOT the leader of the free world...
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. That biased, Liberal Media at work again.
n/t
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. As good as TR/FDR?
In the words of Tetsuo Shima: "Like hell!"
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. After living through the 11-4 fiasco (barely)...
nothing surprizes me anymore! This may give msnbc and newsweek some thoughts to ponder...thought I'd share it...

Saw this right after the 11-4 fiasco and I've bookmarked it...thought I'd share...


black_ribbon
Click here to get your Electoral Mourning Black Ribbon Pin!

NO, GEORGE, YOU WILL NEVER BE MY PRESIDENT!

bush1

AN EXPLANATION FROM TvNewsLIES.org -Nov.2004

No, it’s not what you think, George. It’s not that you managed to win this time around. No, it’s not that at all. It’s not about sour grapes, George, and it’s not about anger. You just can’t be my President, George. No way.

Good speech writers, George – all that stuff about being a President for all the people- and those heartfelt appeals for togetherness. Nice touch. But, you just can’t be my President, George, I’m sorry, but that’s the way it is.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not about your failed policies, I could survive them. It’s not about your arrogance or your inability to see the error of your ways. I could deal with that for another four years. It’s not even about your right wing ideology or your faith driven narrow mindedness. Heck, we’re a pluralistic society, and we can agree to disagree. It’s not that at all.

It’s not even about the lies. Politicians lie, and some of them even manage to lie about really important things. I could hope you’d mend your ways and tell the truth from now on. So, it’s not about the lies. Much as I abhor a liar, that’s not it. It really isn’t.

It’s not about your medieval attitude toward stem cell research, George, or a woman’s right to choose. It’s not about your archaic views about gay marriage or your dangerous disdain for the environment. It’s not even that. It’s not even about your being in bed with the NRA or the pharmaceutical companies. You’re not the first, and you won’t be the last to do that. No, George, that’s not why you won’t pass muster. It really isn’t.

So what is it, then? Do you really want to know? Do you really care why you cannot, - I repeat – cannot be my president, - not now and not ever? Do you really want to understand why I openly and defiantly refuse to accept you as my President? Do you, really, George? No, you don’t. But I’ll tell you anyway:

YOU CANNOT BE MY PRESIDENT, GEORGE BUSH, BECAUSE YOU HAVE SULLIED AND DENIGRATED THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY. THAT’S WHY!

I can give you some details, if you’re at all interested. I’ll list only a few of the more serious transgressions of your first term. Then, perhaps, you’ll understand why you cannot be my President for a second one.

Oh, by the way, going into the election, most Americans had very little, if any, information about many of your actions as their President. The corporate media in this country acted as your mouthpiece, you know that. The corporate media protected you every inch of the way and told the American public only what you wanted them to know. They promoted your fear and terror campaign with great fanfare and drama. They supported your deceptions and your fabrications, and turned a blind eye to your incompetence. The corporate media, most notably the bogus TV news networks, became your lapdogs, and in the end, the people had no clue.

But I did, as did many millions of informed Americans. I knew what you did, and I knew what you didn’t do, and what you were incapable of doing. It is so clear that you abused the power of the Presidency, and you used your position to dismantle the legacy of leadership that came with the job. That’s precisely why I claim the moral imperative to say that you cannot be my President, George. No way.

In explanation, in case you still don’t understand, and for the record, - here’s a short list of your unpardonable offenses:

*
You committed a clearly impeachable act by manipulating and distorting intelligence information to further your preconceived plans for war.
*
You exploited the nation’s anguish on 9/11 to justify a war you had planned long before that date.
*
You spent more than a year trying to prevent an independent inquiry into the causes of the attacks on 9/11.
*
You withheld and falsely classified information that would allow the American people access to vital information about the attacks of 9/11.
*
You sent the Sec. of State to the United Nations with fabricated evidence to support your false claim that war against Iraq was urgent.
*
By invading and occupying Iraq, you violated the United Nations Charter, to which the United States is a signatory.
*
You waged an illegal and immoral war against a non belligerent nation, killing 100,000 of its civilians, and maiming thousands more.
*
You sent American and coalition military men and women into harm’s way without adequate war plans, without adequate armor and equipment, without adequate plans for the occupation, and without an exit strategy.
*
Your unnecessary war of choice in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of nearly 1200 soldiers and in serious injury to thousands more.
*
You knowingly violated the Geneva Convention by allowing torture and abuse at prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay.
*
You unlawfully detained prisoners taken in the war against Afghanistan without charges or legal counsel at Guantanamo Bay.
*
You unlawfully detained thousands of people in the US without charges or access to legal counsel under the Patriot Act, – and have not convicted a single one of any crime.
*
You arranged for personal benefactors and friends to earn huge profits from your war.
*
You ignored and refused to investigate the outing of a CIA agent, whose husband had exposed your fabrication for war.
*
Your invasion of Iraq has led to unending chaos and violence within the country and endangers the stabilization of the entire Middle East.
*
Your war has significantly increased membership in worldwide terrorist groups, making our country and the world far more unsafe.
*
You made our country the most feared and reviled in the world, and our President the most hated in history.

I could go on, but I think these will do, George. Do you understand, now? Can you see why I cannot, under any circumstances, allow you to be my President?

You see, before you took office last time, George, the Presidency of the United States of America was the most respected and most honored office in the entire world. The President of this country was looked up to as the leader of the free world. He was cheered and welcomed and respected all over the world, George, all over the world, Think about that.

You changed all that, George. You are not respected anywhere in the world. You’re feared and distrusted by our most valued allies. You can’t go anywhere in the entire world without huge crowds coming to protest your visit….nowhere, George, not even London. Imagine. But it gets worse. Before this election, they only hated you. Now, the entire world believes that Americans all support your election. Now they hate us, too. Think about that, too.

That’s about it, George. I hope you understand. It’s not about your politics or your ideas. It’s not about your right wing bent, or your refusal to analyze and examine the complexities of the world. It’s what you did to tear down the fabric of American leadership, George. It’s what you did to the idea of America and it’s about what you did to the Presidency itself. Trust, me George, I can’t just look the other way. You did far too much damage in your first four years, far, far too much.

So, as you approach your second inaugural, George, count me out. I want no part of it, or you. I’ll be stateless in my heart for the next four years rather than have anyone think that I approve of your Presidency. I’ll have no President at all rather than have anyone think for even a moment that I can forget what you’ve done, or that I don’t fear what you will do now. I’m sure it won’t put a damper on your celebrations in January, George. I’m sure you’ll go right on doing what you’ve done this far. But you’ll do it with one less American in your care. I just cannot allow you to be my President, George Bush. No way, - none at all.

*
Don't you just love TVNewsLies.org?
Sounds like the media is going to FLUNK their semster final! You bet he'll go down in history...as the biggest LOSER this country has ever had as their president! Now THAT'S a real story...
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. He's as great a failure as Roosevelt was a success. More so! n/t
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bush's foreign policy has been a total evil failure. (nt)
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MsTryska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. phew. for a minute i thought they were comparing him to
Teddy Roosevelt.
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Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. OH MY GOD
I have picked things off my sweater that showed more higher brain function going on than is evident in this putrid opinion piece.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. Rallying a tenuous 51% of those who voted hardly amounts to leadership
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DemGirl7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Oh God...I feel sick
WTF???? Is this person on drugs???
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48pan Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Pure Bushit!
We should never have been there in the first place. They were no direct threat to us. Bush will go down in history as one of the worst blundering murderers ever.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. * is a virus effecting others who are mutating into unknow materials

yuke, yuke,

:kick:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. Were Roosevelt & Churchill WRONG on every thing they said & did, too?
Coz bush & bLiar have been WRONG...DEAD WRONG...on EVERY THING.

WRONG. INCOMPETENT. On EVERY THING.
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
32. They can declare whatever they want...
He is still mortal, just like the rest of us, his flesh will still rot when he dies, just like the rest of us, and he will still have to account for what he has done to humanity and the world. If not in this life, then in the hereafter...when he won't have ROVE to cut him a deal!

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charlottelouise Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. FDR -- Let's look at the FACTS
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 01:08 AM by charlottelouise
1. In 1917, the year the US entered WWI, FDR wanted to resign his post as Assistant Secretary of the Navy (a job he held from 1913 to 1920) to see active service in France. Both President Woodrow Wilson and Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels told FDR that his services were needed in Washington and that his resignation would not be accepted.

2. Other members of his family were able to serve, among them all 4 sons of his cousin Theodore Roosevelt - Theodore Jr., Kermit, Archie, and Quentin (killed in action, aged 20)

Fast forward......

3. In WWII, all 4 of FDR's sons saw active service --

James (Marines, Pacific Theater, served 1940-1945)

Elliott (Army photo reconnaissance pilot, North Africa; later military aide to FDR)

Franklin, Jr. (Navy, North Africa, Europe, and the Pacific; received Silver Star and Purple Heart)

John (1941-1946, Navy)

4. John Boettiger (born 1900), married to Anna Roosevelt, also volunteered for active service.

Don't even think of comparing B*** to FDR !!!!!

On edit: also see What Is a War President?
James Roosevelt Jr>

:mad:
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Raiden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
34. BULL ---- SHIT
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 12:45 AM by Raiden
Bush isn't even worthy of licking FDR's boots!


===
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
35. Comparing Bush to FDR is
like comparing Simon and the Chipmunks to Elvis.
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