Who is our real enemy?

[Truman01]

We need to stop focusing on * and acting like Rove is some all powerful boogieman, this board attributes everything to him or Rove, believe me he isnt all that. Our real enemy is us.

We are not the party of inclusion anymore. I'll get flamed for this post becuase I dare to disagree and say we have something to fix in our party. Everyone doesn't agree with the far left Liberal agenda, but that doesn't make them all bad. Until we stop jeering at Southerners as stupid rednecks, and religious people in general as dangerous, instead of embracing religious people who will embrace us and putting away our regional arrogance, we will continue to lose elections.

The right wing, as much as we hate them, HAS included the center of the GOP in their cabal. If you don't believe it, look at how moderate to liberal some of the GOP Senators are. The fundies are playing nice in their sandbox to stay in power.

All we can do is snipe and say how stupid people are who don't think like we do. On another thread I was amused to see that someone found a thread where a poster from Nov. 2nd had the audacity to say this election was being stolen. He was chided and called a TROLL. People here didn't like what he was saying, so instead of listening and elvaluating they took the arrogant position of calling him a Troll.

We need to be the party of the big tent. Say what you want about Ohio or Florida, if we had won one or two states in the south we would be in the white house and * would have gone down in defeat the first time.

Before you flame me, why don't you think about it. Tennessee would have put Gore over in 2000, NC and AR, TN, or VA would have put us over this time. Yes if all the conspiracy theories about fraud are true we might have lost anyway, but if they are really that powerful and good, what makes you think that a few of us, or even a lot of us are going to make them run scared? Where are we going to defeat them? The Senate? The House? The Ohio Supreme Court? The US Supreme Court?

Our arrogance, and refusal to deal with reality has lost all of those places for us. We need to stand up, look in the mirror and fix ourselves.

If you are going to flame me, save it. If you want to have a constructive dialogue, let's start rebuilding the Democratic Party.

Tc

From GA a Red State that hasn't had Repug control in 200 years until now.

[ProfessorPlum]

1. I'd have to agree

the Democratic party is WAY more arrogant and less inclusive than the Republican party.

/sarcasm

On a more sane note, I'd be happy if more Southern rednecks started voting in their own interests, ie Democratic. The more, the merrier. They'd have to come to the conclusion that it is the greed-heads, and not the "liberal elite" who are harming them and the country, though.

[bemis12]

2. There ya go

Call them rednecks and suggest that they don't know how to best vote for themselves.

You herded them all in, and now we'll carry the South. Way to go.

[ProfessorPlum]

7. I didn't call all southerners "rednecks"

but I do admit that such a beast as the southern redneck does exist. And I'd be happy if people like that voted Democratic. Wouldn't you?

[femme.democratique]

19. Yeah, they're not rednecks, they're just suckers...

...they like to vote for people who "sound" like them. Hence Clinton and Carter regardless of the alternatives that were presented to them. Sure sounds like fair, reasonable, thinking folk to me! *rolling eyes*


The fact that only a Southerner or a Faux Conservative (Reagan, Bush I and II) can win the presidency in contemporary America should scare the fuck out of you. That belies a populace of idiocy that is fairly immune to facts and to rational analysis. Stop blaming it on our "arrogance", as I'd rather not belong to a party that dumbed down everything they did just to appeal to people who are really easily mis-led.

Fact is there is a long-standing cultural bias in the south about "Northerners" which immediately shuts down any further thought about the issue. I think a similar bias exists in the North re: the South, but the difference is we're willing to explore and dig deeper!

[Truman01]

3. Arrogance/Pride is the ugliest of sins. The prideful end up

out of power or on the end of a rope. History is never kind to them. We need to come down off our high horse and realize that Southerners aren't rednecks. Some people would think Vermont is a bit hicky; I would defend you too, professor.

TC

[ProfessorPlum]

9. Some southerners are rednecks

and I agree that there are "hicks" in every state in the nation. My own homestate, PA, is Alabama in the middle with Pittsburgh and Phil. on either end. Hence, "Pennsylbama".

My point is that the Democratic party is not exclusionary. We are painted that way by the GOP propagandists who would try to convince the citizenry that all evil flows from the "liberal elite", but the Democratic party really doesn't have a problem with anybody . . . except people who demonize the Democratic party.

[InvisibleBallots]

38. "Southern rednecks" - you are the reason we lose

Everytime someone like you tars people as "Southern rednecks" - and all the anti-Christian bigots rant about fundie conspiracy theories, you cost us votes. Thanks a lot, Rove could never have done it without you.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

4. The warm, fuzzy, inclusive GOP????

No, the GOP does not treat moderates Republicans well...didn't they make Arlen Specter 'sit up and beg' publicly after he dared speak out on judicial nominees. I have no right to speak about what Democrats choose to do about the direction of their party but I do have to disagree with you on how well the GOP will be able to keep the party together with the radical right-wing flexing their muscles intoxicated with their newfound perceived power.

P.S. I am not the only moderate Republican who posts on DU and looks to the Democrats for hope.

[Truman01]

8. Yet you are still a Republican. The Repugs have

held it together since 1994 by keeping their hardcore from eating the rest of their group. We don't keep the hardcore from doing so, we enjoy the spectical of the hardcore beating up the moderate Dems.

Think what you will about Senator Miller, but in 1992 he was our "star." You think he became a bad man in the next 10 years or do you think there is some possibility we moved away from him and started calling people like him hicks/rednecks, and lost them.

I'm sure I openned a can of worms now but I want to know, what happened with Zell. He was a STAR in the Democratic Party a two term Governor, our key note speaker in 1992, what happened?

TC

[femme.democratique]

11. People finally realized he was a throwback to the 19th century...

...and that he's really a DINO?

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

14. Stealth mode: Republican tend to at least listen to Republicans.

I actually made a difference in PA getting the vote out for Kerry by talking to moderate Republicans as "one of them". I don't bother with the right wingnuts because I don't speak their language...nor do I care to learn their language. But I can help good Democrats, at least in PA, by talking mod to mod Republican.

I don't know Zell Miller's history but I have to ask, "Was his speech at the GOP convention representative of his past?" He just seemed to be a very angry southern man who was more Republican than a lot of Republicans I know.

[Truman01]

23. That's it.....

Bingo

>>I actually made a difference in PA getting the vote out for Kerry by talking to moderate Republicans as "one of them". I don't bother with the right wingnuts because I don't speak their language...nor do I care to learn their language. But I can help good Democrats, at least in PA, by talking mod to mod Republican.<<

[ThorsHammer]

63. I'm another (nt)

[Demit]

5. The conundrum is that Democrats ARE inclusive; that allows for dissent,

but dilutes our power. The GOP is powerful because they will brook no dissent. It is (their) authoritarianism v. (our) egalitarianism.

When you include everybody, everybody will have their own point of view, and there will be squabbles. The secret will be finding what we ALL can unite behind. How to get back at what, as a political party, are our core beliefs.

[Truman01]

13. We talk a good game but we don't include everyone....

We insist on calling Red-staters, rednecks and ignorant because they don't exactly believe in what we do.

On this board, the mods have to constantly rebuke people for calling dissenters Trolls or Freepers because they post a dissenting opinion. We talk about * like he is stupid, but we give him and boogieman Rove credit for stealing a national election.

The myth is that we are inclusive, the truth is that we are only inclusive if we agree with you.

TC

[Demit]

20. You are throwing around a lot of generalizations yourself. Who is the "we"

you're talking about? The national party? Democrats on DU? All Dems on DU or just some?

How bout I state for the record:

I don't think all southerners are rednecks;
I don't think Dems who disagree with me are not Democrats;
I don't think that anyone who doesn't "agree with the far left Liberal agenda" is "bad".

I do wish you would narrow down whatever your beef is, and specify who you have it with.

[Truman01]

22. Read the posts on here and stop being coy..... nt

[Truman01]

47. Dem tells me he/she isn't being coy... I apologize

I mean that the majority of posts on here seem to deride southerners and they tend to eat their own.

Please see the posts below saying fuck the south, as if that is an option.

TC

[XemaSab]

54. People who talk about

"Purple states" and "common ground" also get attacked by certain souls among us.

The dude who said there are rednecks in every state in the country called it. (Though it's hard to picture Hawaiian rednecks/freepers... just doesn't seem like the climate would be so conducive to anger and hostility there.)

[libertypirate]

6. Hey buddy, working on it

They need us to be crazy...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=210704&mesg_id=210704

We the people have the power...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x208164

[ProfessorPlum]

10. Yeah, that was one of Dean's big points as well

that we need to teach people who have been indoctrinated otherwise that the Democratic party is not, and should not be viewed as, a problem for them. Just one of the reasons to love the good doctor. . .

[secedeeconomically]

12. How does one come to a middle ground with individuals

who believe abortion is murder and homosexuals are evil? Are you simply saying we should ignore these small facts? We as Democrats wont win by just trying to pacify the right or by trying to be Rebubs light.

[slackmaster]

16. It's easy if you think about it

How does one come to a middle ground with individuals who believe abortion is murder and homosexuals are evil?

You let them keep and live by their beliefs in exchange for you keeping and living by yours. What we must not do is fall into the trap of saying THEY are evil because of their values. Most of them aren't evil, they're just misinformed.

Are you simply saying we should ignore these small facts?

Let the fact of other peoples' beliefs speak for themselves. It doesn't have to be your problem.

We as Democrats wont win by just trying to pacify the right or by trying to be Rebubs light.

Enshrining liberty and embracing diversity of thought does not mean either of those.

[secedeeconomically]

28. Pie in the sky mentality

The problem is that they aren’t content by just living happily with there believe in there little hermetic world. They want to spread their ideas and force us to conform to their interpretation of a book a few people wrote 2000 years ago. What I object to, is forcing their Christian beliefs on America, as if this country cannot survive without their intervention. I say fuck them and will never see eye to eye with them. If that mean loosing presidential elections, then fine. Because at the end of the day, what has built this country is innovation and technology, and the areas on this country with progressive thinking will flourish and the ones living in the stone ages will wither away. Time is on my side my friend.

[Truman01]

45. I have to disagree with you.

Religion is not all bad and innovation and technology is not all that built this country. They aren't shrinking as a group, and they are not a minority as we found out in this election. We can fracture them but as long as we have a fuck you attitude we will be a minority.

Remember, we lost the majority when we stopped being those people who went to church and had loyalty to values. We have no loyalty to anything now and we are paying a price.

I think you are being unrealistically optimistic thinking time is on your side. We are the ones that will be extinct if we are not careful.

TC

[Mutley]

55. do i have to be religous

to have values? can't i believe that murder, theft, and adultery are wrong without "following" the ten commandments or the bible? why do i have to go to church to be a good person?

does the fact that i believe that women should have a choice and that homosexuals should be able to get married like anyone else make me evil? there are those that would answer that question with an emphatic YES!

[Truman01]

60. Not at all, but you have to respect those who have values that are

not identical as yours. They too have to do this, I'm not saying this is a one way street. We don't capitulate but we show them respect for their differences just as they show us respect for ours.

TC

[Mutley]

53. the problem with this is...

that we believe they are entitled to their opinions but they do not believe that we are entitled to ours (by THEM i mean far right wing christian fundies, and by WE i mean everyone else...). they want to tell us that we CAN'T have abortions, that we CAN'T be homosexual, etc... how can we compromise with that?

[Truman01]

62. You are simplifing to much I think....

You see two groups, those that are like you and agree and the fundies. There are a whole spectrum of people out there. There are a bunch of people who would be our allies for economic, war, or social reasons that might not totally agree with us in everything else. All Repugs don't believe in banning abortion, but they work together.

We believe in all or nothing. We have to show respect for their opinions and for the people that hold those opinions. We want to say fuck them if they disagree. Look at the answers on this board. Look at the attitudes. If you were a southerner, what would you do if these attitudes were leveled at you?

Tc

[Truman01]

18. Because repugs aren't all that way, we lump them together...

There are plenty of religious, southerners, who really don't like abortion but it still isn't something that they would totally ban.

Most religious people don't hate homosexuals. We hear some of the loudmouths and we group them all together. Do they really have to agree with the homosexual lifestyle for us not to bash them? How do you think the Log Cabin Republicans get along?

We need to learn to really tollerate people, instead of giving lip service to the word.

We protect the extreme and alienate the middle. We need to contain the extreme and embrace the middle.

TC

[secedeeconomically]

30. I'm referring to the religions right

I can deal with baseline republicans who just want tax cuts and smaller government. That’s fine, arguments and dialog can be had with them. My issue if the whacked religious right who wants to place baby Jesus on every government building in America.

[Truman01]

49. You lump all religious people in with wingnuts then...

All religious people or even what you would at first call the religious right are not crazy. You just don't even try to talk to them. You don't have to trust me, but I live here, and I am not alienated because of who I am.

TC

[mattclearing]

15. Their moderates toe the Party line though. Ours don't.

Our moderates toe the Republican Party line when the time comes. These people are not allies.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'm all for including people who don't believe in the same things as I do, as long as they don't believe in most of the same things Bush does. I think I'm in the majority here in that respect.

The main problem is that people seem to want us to bend over backward to cater to people who don't share our basic values. I'm of the opinion that some votes aren't worth the trouble.

I would rather educate than pander. And I think that is the choice that the next DNC chair has to make.

[slackmaster]

17. We need a consensus on what our basic values actually are

n/t

[mattclearing]

25. This is often discussed here at DU.

I would say they go something like:

People are more important than profits.

Corporations don't need the Government's help with money, but occasionally the poor could use it.

War is something horrible that should only be undertaken to save lives when all other options have been exhausted.

Working class people deserve to have access to essential services like housing and healthcare with the help of government if necessary.

Fair labor standards are the reward of being a free and successful country.

Religion and personal choices like sexual preference, medical matters, and abortion should not be interfered with by the government except to ensure that they can be freely made.

I think most Democrats could agree to those basic premises. The ones who can't might want to start thinking about what they are doing here.

[Wisc Badger]

52. Hear, Hear, Author, Author

Very well stated.

:bounce:

:toast:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

48. Again with the troll comment, proving my point

The majority of DU'ers I meet here can't stand anyone that disagrees with them in the slightest. Dixiecrats are exactly the point. Don't give me the bullshit that the Civil Rights movement made them defect. That isn't so.

The disrespect and arrogance from the "educated" in the party is what has alienated the south. You will find the largest gay population outside of San Franciso here in Atlanta, not in NYC. Do you know how much anti-gay crime we have here in the RED state of GA. Nearly NONE.

Dixecrats aren't to be looked down upon. If you want to fine, but get use to the minority because that is where we will be.

TC

[democrank]

24. Interesting topic.

As I see it, the problem in the Democratic Party isn`t with the members, it`s with our leaders. After more than four decades in this party, I can assure you that our "leaders" have strayed drastically from basic Democratic principles and positions. Tell me the last time you heard our leaders step up to their microphones in a collective effort to address homelessness, poverty, overcrowded prisons, drug addiction, lack of affordable housing,etc.

Our leaders have chosen to wink and nod at their corporate donors and lobbyists rather than take a firm stand for the people...with very few exceptions. When they`re not cozying up to the multi-millionaires who run our party, they`re busy "proving" they`re tough on crime and terrorists, "proving" they not only have a deep faith but follow it and "proving" their patriotism. Somewhere in this whole mess they`ve lost sight of the fact that a lot can be learned about a country by the way it treats those who have the least. Our "leaders" hop from CNN to MSNBC to Meet the Press to display their flag pins and assure donors they aren`t one of the dreaded Liberals. The fact that almost none of them even took the time to read The Patriot Act before they signed it matters not.Who could question a good Democrat who pledges to kill the enemy?

The hullabaloo over The Dean Scream told me everything I needed to know about where our party was headed...including the famous anti-Dean memo sent out by our illustrious DLC. Dean`s 4-star approval rating from the NRA didn`t matter, his history of balanced budgets didn`t matter. All that mattered was his anti Iraq War stance and the Civil Unions bill he signed while governor. "Down with liberals" yelled the DLC, as if they even knew what a true Liberal was. Even Senator Clinton joined up with the Hawks in some kind of laughable right turn.

I`m grateful that our party still has a few Democratic leaders left who are willing to stand up for basic Democratic principles: Wes Clark, Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders to name a few. They`re not ashamed to stand with the voiceless. Party leaders have lost their way. It`s up to the base to demand a return to Democratic principles and let the leadership know what the consequences will be if they fail to listen.

[thanatonautos]

26. It's a reasonable argument, but I don't agree.

Where are we going to defeat them? The Senate? The House? The Ohio Supreme Court? The US Supreme Court?

Clearly, many of us who threw their lots in with the Democratic
Party, and I am one who probably threw a bit too much
money and effort into the last election for my own good, realize
that we are not going to defeat them in any of those places,
without some kind of a miracle occurring.

We are left with a local battlefield on which progress
can still be made, and the requirements are definitely
different in GA than they are here in NY. I realize that.

But these realities, in and of themselves, are no reason
for making fundamental compromises.

I think you, perhaps, term such behaviour arrogance as
amounts only to standing up for principles that one
believes in.

Arrogance, from the Latin verb arrogare ... it originally
meant: to ask, to question, to claim for oneself.

Arrogance is not, I think, at all such a bad thing as people
make it out to be.

What are the parameters of this accomodation that you
propose ... are those who hold that scripture is inerrant
or that the millenium is nearly upon us to be included in
your proposed big tent? If so, I will have to leave it.

For me, the Establishment Clause is central.

I see such extremist religious groups as the major
danger to the Republic. Their fanaticism has been
coopted by the current Republican party, and their method
of thinking about the world can be all too easily mapped
onto that of the Taliban or the Nazis.

I have no quarrel with religious people who are moderate
in their religion, and recognize the importance of reason,
if not its supremacy in all of human affairs, but I insist
that I not be required to share anyone's religion.

So I say:

We Democrats are now an opposition party, on a
national level.

We should therefore be willing to oppose the majority ...
we should not worry overly much about insulting those who
disagree with us, as long as the insult is a necessary insult.

It's for damn sure that the majority will proceed in that
fashion.

[Truman01]

51. Please see post 37 for a definition of arrogance that loses elections.

[democrank]

27. Having a dialogue with moderate Republicans

is a good idea. I do that whenever I can. Give me a Republican like Chaffee over a Democrat like Miller any day. At least you have something to work with and a chance at finding common ground.

[smartvoter]

29. The irony of this post is I just saw that TIA was tombstoned. nt

[Truman01]

44. Now that is irony, what happened?

I disagreed with his analysis but I always enjoyed his posts.

TC

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

71. How do you know when someone get's Ts'ed? nt

[Peace Patriot]

31. We didn't lose this election.

"...we will continue to lose elections."--TrumanO1

But we didn't.

"Our arrogance, and refusal to deal with reality has lost all of those places (southern states) for us."--TrumanO1

I think you are forgetting how the Democratic Party "lost" the South--by standing up for the civil rights of black citizens. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were Democratic Party projects, and LBJ and the Democrats had to fight the southern bigots in their own party tooth and nail to get this legislation. (They also had to fight Republicans, but that goes without saying, when it comes to a matter of fairness and inclusiveness.)

The consequence was that white bigots everywhere in the country--but especially in the South--flocked to Nixon in 1968, and Nixon consciously and deliberately played to their prejudices. They called it "the Southern Strategy," and they did NOT mean a strategy to woo black voters! They meant a strategy to woo whites who HATE blacks.

The Democrats did not write the South off. The Democrats told southern bigots that they must end their violent and unjust oppression of black citizens.

Also, the Democrats have always been the big tent for religious people. When WASP society rejected Catholics, where did they go for representation? To the Democrats. When WASP society rejected Jews, where did they go? Who represented them? The blacks, the browns, the Irish, the Italians, Catholics, Jews, Gays--whoever gets left out and stigmatized, finds a home with the Democratic Party.

The only religious people we Democrats reject are those who want to shove their religion down our throats! White, racist, "holier than thou," "burn the witches" Cromwellians!

They can go live in Saudi Arabia.

Truman01, you are correct that there are some very serious things wrong with the Democratic Party.

The first and most important of them is the Democratic Party LEADERSHIP's CATASTROPHIC failure to prevent BushCons from OWNING and CONTROLLING the election system. How did this happen? I think it was a combination of corruption (HAVA money porkbarrel to the states, and Diebold wining and dining), and ignorance and obliviousness. The Dem leadership lives in a protected bubble of money and power--far, far removed from the reality of the lives of Democratic voters. It is very hard for them to see out of that bubble. It blinds them to reality. Thus, they let Walley O'Dell and H. Ahmanson count all our votes using machines WITH SECRET PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE.

And did not burn down the Capitol to get that changed--as they should have. And didn't even bother to warn voters and volunteers and donors what the reality was.

Secondly, to the extent that Democratic leaders are honest people, trying to represent their constituents, they CANNOT SUCCEED in the current climate of ILLUSION created by our utterly disgusting, malfeasant news media. Look what happens to any honest person who tries to oppose BushCons.

Add to this the putrid state of our campaign finance system--whereby our campaign donations are immediately turned over to ABC, NBC, CNN, CBS, Fox News and Clear Channel--the war profiteers who are screwing us over--and you have a situation in which it is almost impossible to be an honest, constituent-serving politician.

Thirdly, when you have a fascist coup running the country--who can do a 9/11 or a Paul Wellstone, or anthrax to the Democrats--you live with constant fear. If you get out of line, they will surely take you down. If you shut up and play along--help foster the ILLUSION of democracy--they might let you control your own little fiefdom, and eat well in the meantime, and retire comfortably to the countryside to write your memoirs.

Fourthly, if the grass roots Democrats get uppity and well-organized, and force you to mount a serious campaign to oust the fascists, and do all the work for you, and succeed in getting out the vote, the BushCons will get out their Darth Vader sword and slaughter than movement in one fell swoop--by stealing the election, demoralizing all those voters and volunteers, and making them understand that YOU CANNOT VOTE OUT A FASCIST COUP.

So, what I'm saying is, yes, there is a big problem of the leadership bubble vs. reality. But there is a much bigger problem--related to the first--in recognizing what we're dealing with, and who really runs our country.

For instance, those in the Democratic leadership bubble are among the culprits on the outsourcing of jobs. They advocated NAFTA and globalisation. Clinton promised that it would contain labor and environmental protections. He lied. We are now seeing the result.

During the '04 campaign, the Democrats (leadership) were lying hypocrites when they pointed the finger at the BushCons on job loss. The BushCons and their ilk of course INVENTED globalisation, and wrote the WTO rules that resulted in sweatshops worldwide. And have been destroying third world countries with World Bank loans, the dumping of produce, and CIA wars for several decades. But the Democrats, on the whole, have gone along with all this, and advocated it. (They balked at the war against Nicaragua, and other overt brutality, but they did not balk at the economic destruction of other countries--nor at the blowback on our own.)

I don't know what the solution is. If we leave the Democratic Party en masse, to punish its leaders, we may be fatally contributing to a fracture of the Left such as brought down German democracy in the early 1930s (a history lesson that haunts me). But it's sure tempting. The leaders have failed us in so many ways.

The BushCons now own the presidency, the Congress, the courts, the media AND the election system. Germany, 1934--the consolidation of all state power. Although we are a very different country (much bigger and more diverse, and thus harder to control) than Germany, the parallels are chilling. The Democrats acquiescence to this fraudulent election--if that's what they do--will only embolden these fascists (as did the 2000 election theft).

My first priority right now is not internal Democratic policy matters, but restoring our right to vote--which the Democrats helped us lose!

If we don't get it back, it's all over. Our democracy is dead.

We need

a) a paper receipt for every vote
b) open source code

or (best alternative)

a) paper ballot
b) hand count

NOW! And we have to do it locally, state by state, A.S.A.P., while we still have the power.

IF we can restore our right to vote, I have no doubt whatever that we can elect a progressive Congress in '06. (BushCons cannot win an honest election.) And THEN we can do something about 100% public financing of political campaigns (and a few other top priority items).

Howard Dean is calling for this--local-driven election system reform, by initiative where necessary and possible.

This is the ONLY issue right now, in my opinion. Without the right to vote, we have NO POWER to do anything else. And Exhibit #1 in this struggle is: Election Fraud 2004.

This, to me, is "dealing with reality."

[Truman01]

59. I agree with your election reforms but....

that is not all we need to do. Whether or not we lost this election is certainly up to debate. If you would like to prove we didn't lose, I'll put it in court myself and overturn the election.

The idea that we lost the south on the Civil Rights act is simply a myth perpetrated by people who know nothing about the south and who think that they only stereotype that is ok to use is that of the White Southerner as a Bigot. Let me tell you bigotry is bigotry even if you are despising the White Southerner.

TC

[Orsino]

32. Our real enemy? Money!

We let it into politics, and Money has bought itself more and more influence in the political process. Majorities no longer mean anything; real decisions are made in the smoke-filled rooms by handfuls of people who s--t more money than we make in entire years.

The GOP has simply been more rapidly and thoroughly corrupted by money than the Dems, who still make some room for people in their agendas.

Money has made it possible for voting machine companies to buy themselves custody of our votes. Without real campaign finance reform, the idea of a progressive canidate's even winning a nomination, much less actually getting a majority of certified votes, will remain pure fantasy.

I am about ready to warn *any* candidate for office--Dem, Republican, or other--that unless s/he accomplishes meaningful campaign finance reform, more verifiable voting, or an end to imperial adventures, s/he will not get my support. Until that time, I may not be able to muster any more energy for getting out the vote. There are ways I can *actually* help people that can't be instantly undercut by wealthy white men.

No disrespect meant to any of you freedom fighters out there, but if one is utterly convinced that any election conducted under current interpretations of law can easily be steered toward Big Money, why should one waste time or energy getting out the vote? I might do much more good by working to expose election fraud, or by giving to charities that help to undo the damage done by the Machine.

[Quakerfriend]

34. Couldn't agree with you more

Money is the poison of politics!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Chi]

35. The real enemy is obvious........

Why did 87% of all people who thought the economy was good, or very good, vote for *.
Why did around half of all middle class people vote for *, when it's obvious he supports the top 10 %.
Why did the moral high grounders vote for someone who has killed so many.
Why did so many who love the environment, vote for this corp. pig.
Why did so many devout Christians vote for someone the Pope doesn't like.
Why did so many who decried 'get out of Somalia' (we lost 18 Rangers), then back an illegal war that killed thousands.
Why do so many believe the ties between Saddam and Osama, even though it''s been debunked by the 9/11 commission.
Why do so many still believe Saddam had WMD, when it's been debunked by the Duelfer report.
Why did so many NRA members, believe that Kerry would take away their guns.
How can your constituency include two opposite groups like gun nuts and devout Christians.
Why do so many find in F*cking acceptable that * blew capturing Bin Ladin, and Al-qaeda now has multiple heads that cant be easily killed.
(3,000 souls turn in their graves over his incompetence)

Answer -- Misinformation (also know as lies).

There is no need for a change in party philosophy...that is what THEY want you to believe!
They have been trying since Nov3 to make us second guess ourselves.
THEY do NOT represent the common American and can only lie to get support.

Want to change the balance of support....make their lies transparent.

[Truman01]

41. I don't know who they is, but we are a smaller and smaller

>>>>>>>>There is no need for a change in party philosophy...that is what THEY want you to believe!
They have been trying since Nov3 to make us second guess ourselves.
THEY do NOT represent the common American and can only lie to get support.

Want to change the balance of support....make their lies transparent.<<<<<<<<<<<


Minority in governance. Since 1994 we have been consistantly getting our heads handed to us because of people like you who won't admit there is something wrong with the way WE are approaching this. So go on, keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Sooner or later their will be no Dems in office to protect us at all. Then you will have won your silly war of principles.

TC

[Chi]

69. First off....

You asked a question "Who is our real enemy?", and further stated "If you are going to flame me, save it. If you want to have a constructive dialogue...".
So I respond to your question with a constructive answer, and further cited examples of my answer (all without hostility toward you).
You then get judgemental...
"Since 1994 we have been consistently getting our heads handed to us because of people like you..." (glad you found a box for me)
Have we met?

Then you misrepresent what I've said..
"people like you who won't admit there is something wrong with the way WE are approaching this"
totally ignoring my point of what is wrong, and how to approach it.

Let me ask one thing...do you agree with the examples I stated in my original post?
IF not, which ones and why.

Thanx in Advance

[liberalhistorian]

36. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

I really hate to admit it, but you have some excellent points and it took a lot of courage to post this. I really hope you don't get alerted and TS'd for it. Self-introspection is always very painful, but is really necessary at times, unfortunately.

I've been uneasy at the way a lot of DUers have handled things since the election, and you've nailed a lot of the reasons why. I see us becoming ever more insulated and isolated, and it's largely our own fault. Every single newbie is suspected of being a troll, any post that doesn't conform exactly to what people want to hear is shouted down as a troll, and it's getting very disturbing. We cannot simply write off half the country and blame Smirk and Rove for everything and anything without looking at our own culpability.

We are not going to be able to rebuild the party by hatefully locking out half the country, like it or not. The only flaw in your argument is that you claim moderate repub senators are prevalent, and that, unfortunately, isn't the case. They are being railroaded and strong-armed by the extremist hard-right majority. I hope they can continue to resist.

[Truman01]

68. I appreciate your words...

I state my case politely and forthrightly. If people want to flame me, call me a troll, or have my TS'd for that, then that is what they can do.

I don't think I'll face TS because I state my case politely and thoughtfully. Mods here are ok with that.

TC

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[merh]

39. Applause, applause, applause!

Love your post, you are so right! :hi: Kudos from a Southerner!
:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[What Is This Crap]

42. What part of what he said is wrong Truman?

Come on weve been pondering to these sickos long enough!

I may be a newb but even I see the obvious!

The answer is not to become republican-lite. Hell we've been doing that for too damn long and we've had to put up with Republican presidents for the last 24 years! And yes Im calling Clinton a republican!

[Truman01]

65. The part that got his message deleted. nt

[ArkDem]

61. Nice vocabulary! I sur wish they could teach us to rite

like that down here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. If only we would patronize and pander to the South more...

I keep hearing about all the "good" southerners and all that we have to do is to "appeal" to them.

Well, we've been appealing to them for the last 16 years, and all we've gotten in return is a long list of Republican presidents and senators who are all too eager to back the rightwing.

So, where are all these "good" southern whites? How come they can't seem to vote in liberals?

[Truman01]

50. Nobody wants to be patronized, they don't want to be derrided..

And no, they aren't the liberals of the north, but they are progressives. If you are too narrow minded to accept fiscal liberals who are more socially conservative than you stop acting like you are tolerant and just be biggotted against southerners.

The repugs have Conservatives, Fiscal Conservatives/social liberal, and overall moderates. Yes they fight, no they aren't all happy, but they generally vote together and they are in power and growing.

We better learn the same. Northern liberals aren't a majority and never will be. If they can't learn to work with others who don't totally agree with them they will always be what they are: the minority.

TC

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Working with others. Isn't that what Quisling and Petain did?

I'm not "bigoted" against southerners. I'm against "conservatives" whereever they happen to be from. In fact there are a lot of southern politicians I admire. Cynthia McKinney, John Lewis, Julian Bond, come to mind. They ARE southerners aren't they?

"Fiscal liberals who are more socially conservative.." What does that mean? Socialists who are Anti-choice? Anti-gay rights? Anti-gun control? Anti-affimative action? Pro-Prayer-in-schools?

[Truman01]

64. It might, yes. Does everone you work with have to

be pro-choice? or for a gay rights? Do they have to be for gun control? Do they have to agree with your definition of affirmative action?

I'm saying that people aren't that simple. There are people who are against abortion but not for banning it (they avoid the issue). There are people who couldn't care less about gays but don't want gay marriage. Most are ok with civil unions but we seem to want the whole ball of wax or nothing.

Gun control, is it really a drop dead issue? So if someone agrees with you on most things you can't work with them if they own a gun?

What if someone disagrees with you on affirmative action but they are liberal in other areas? Can't work with them?

You seem to be the one that is intollerant. People can believe in some or all of these things they dont' have to be put in a box and believe in all of them.

We have to decide if we can work with people who believe in 50%, 60%, 70% of what we believe. Can we do that?

Can we at least not call them names?

Can we at least not tell them to fuck off? Or is that a code of liberalism that we must tell those who disagree with us to fuck off.

TC

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. OK. But, it works both ways.

How about all those Southern "moderates" promise to vote for a "Northern Liberal"? They do seem to fail that test. Assuming that most blacks vote Democratic, then it would certainly make sense that if coupled with the "moderates" in the south, Kucinich or Dean would be a shoo-in in Mississippi or Arkansas (where my father was from and my brother lives).

[Truman01]

70. Democrats can win here. We have to earn the vote it isn't promised

We have done everything in our power to alienate the people in the south. Since Nov 2 I have seen threads that say the South should succeed, they are idiots, rednecks etc.

And this isn't new, northerners and westerners have had little or no respect for the south or people with more conservative views than theirs. If we are not as liberal as you, we are nothing.

That is a sure fire way to NEVER be in the majority again. We are under the delusion that radical liberalism is in the majority in the US, it isn't.

Southerners will work with people more liberal than they if they are respected for who they are. You wouldn't work with people who don't respect you for who you are, why do you think they are any different?

When have you ever seen a southerner on this board post a thread entitled, fuck the north? Fuck the south was just deleted here. That is the attitude that won't sell, and shouldn't.


TC

[Moderate Dem]

56. I think that this is the smartest thread I've ever seen here...

Good thinking, sound conclusions, Truman01.

I agree with every word you have said.

[rman]

66. It's not that far left to not want corporations to be favored over people.

-

[EVDebs]

72. With 'friends' like these, who needs enemies ?

CNN and other media outlets presumably allow disinformation kind of operations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1460585

maybe to steal elections ?