If the Democratic Party goes Right(More Center) what will you

[saracat]

do? I am working to move it left but haven't decided what to do if we fail to move it left. I hear talk of Warner and Bayh. I don't think I could support either. A win that way would accomplish nothing.

[purduejake]

1. Nothing... I already left.

[ChiciB1]

51. Okay, If You LEFT.... then

Scram!! This is the Democratic Underground! If you're gone, then GO!!!

I'm Liberal, I'm Left, and I'm still out here screaming and hollering. Politics is very cyclical while still being extremely un-nerving. But I'm a Democrat and I don't really think we'll ever move that far RIGHT!!!
Think LEFT... Be RIGHT!!!!

[Zhade]

57. Once again, I must point out someone's error.

Shouldn't really be a common error, since it's in this website's About section, but it keeps popping up. So...

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

Greens and other progressive Dems are welcome. Your attitude is not.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. I think you highlited the wrong part

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

[Zhade]

62. Yes, some here would like to forget that much.

How very...Republican...of them.

[Zhade]

75. Hmm...once you edit it, my reply changes context.

I was referring to the fact that progressives, Greens, etc are welcome here.

That you edited your post to change your highlight to "who will work with us" brings up an interesting question: where does that line break down?

Obviously, pro-Nader posts under ABB were an example of "working with us" (DU's Dems). Now that the election season is over, where do we draw the line?

For example: softening the Democratic Party's stance on abortion (otherwise known as a women's right to self-sovereignty over her own body). When the Dems move toward the Republicans on this issue, are progressives no longer welcome when they sound the alarm on it? After all, if the Democratic Party moves toward "moderation" on the issue, and those of us sane enough not to budge on it fight that move, we're no longer "working with" the Dems here.

What then? Will we no longer be welcome?

[Pushed To The Left]

87. Yes!!!!

We need to band together if we want to move forward.

[ChiciB1]

66. So What Are You???

A site called Democratic Underground may NOT BE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, however.... most people posting ARE DEMOCRATS! I said MOST! I have no problem with Greens, etc., but YOU SAID YOU LEFT!

Sorry if my attitude got under your skin, but I Am a Democrat and I'm not about to back down about it! Since I've only been a member since last September or October, I may have misunderstood and I may also have several chips on my shoulder... but it does irritate me somewhat reading how disagreeable WE Democrats are!

[Zhade]

73. Um, please try reading the thread again. I never said I left.

You're confusing me with the poster who you rudely told to "scram". I was just pointing out that the poster is every bit as welcome here as you are.

No one's asked you to back down from being a Democrat. I certainly haven't. Your affiliation is your own affair. I happen to be an independent now, but that doesn't mean there has to be conflict between you and I (I'm not looking for any, unless you defend corporatism or illegal wars :D )

Based on the fact that you got angry with the entirely wrong poster after being rude to the one I stuck up for, perhaps you should consider that your emotions are getting ahead of your judgment. Perfectly understandable, and I'm in no way angry - just some friendly (really!) advice.

[purduejake]

98. Green.

Which means I don't consider myself a democrat although I voted for Kerry and support true democratic causes.

[Moderator]

65. Please read

Membership in the Democratic party is not required for continued participation in the DU community.

Moreover, it is the responsibility of the Moderators and Administrators to determine who is welcome and who is not. If you feel that a member does not belong here, please use the Alert button and DO NOT post public accusations or insinuations which may make others feel threatened or unwelcome.

Quoting the rules is encouraged to the extent that it is intended to help others understand and abide by them. It is not appropriate, however, to quote the rules to further a public accusation.

Thank you,
DU Moderator

[ChiciB1]

68. Thank You

And forgive me.

[purduejake]

104. Don't worry about it.

We're both on the same side as far as I am concerned. :)

[purduejake]

99. I'll stay, thank you.

I voted for Kerry and we all need each other to take on the neo-cons. I believe in democratic causes, however feel the party has changed and left me behind. I'm not leaving a progressive board because you can't tolerate others based on a label.

edit: spelling

[bobweaver]

2. If the Dems move right, I will vote for a third party such as the Greens

[saracat]

3. But a third party will have NO chance. This is why I am conflicted.

[purduejake]

4. Neither will Dems who don't stand up to cheating.

edit: The repukes are so corrupt they will steal every presidential election until somebody stands up to them. Know of many dems who have? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't even think Dean has been that vocal.

[miss_kitty]

14. well the dems on this particular highway to hell

have NO chance of winning either.

And thinking that one always has to vote for a 'winner' is what helps third parties to their failure. A lot of time, I vote for people I know won't win, simply because I believe in what they say.

You truly DO throw your vote away, when you vote for someone or something in which you do not believe, just because what you DO believe in has no chance of winning.

JMO, though.

[bobweaver]

48. The Dems loss in 2000 made them move left to recapture the left vote in

2004. If they move to the right again, it would be stupid to stay with the Dems because it would reward them for moving rightward. If they move right the result will be that I fall off their platform.

[mandyky]

72. I think an Independent or 3rd Party candidate does have a chance

It would be a longshot, but I've voted for the last time for a wishy washy Dem, and moving right needs to be strongly discouraged. Since shrub can't run again, I am not so frantic as I was this year. If we live thru the next 4 years, and we are given choices like Beyh and Warner, I may just figure we could survive the next 4 years and vote 3rd party and consequences be damned.

[Iris]

103. I agree.

If the Dems think moving right will siphon off votes from the Republicans AND if those of us with a CONSCIENCE stick to our principles and can find them upheld in a 3rd party, then maybe. . . It could take years, but this country really, really needs to get out of this 2 party Hell which only serves to force people to one extrem or another.

[w4rma]

5. Depends on the issue. Depends on whether you think X position is left or

right. I'm a little tired of these debates over words whose meanings are not settled upon.

[saracat]

7. What do you mean X position?

[w4rma]

9. Whether you believe a specific position on a specific topic is leftward or

rightward.

[saracat]

12. Pro Choice and Gay rights will NEVER be a right position.

Becoming less supportive of those issues is going right. Those issues are not negotiable. What are you talking about ? Right and left are pretty specific>

[sandnsea]

19. Then change some minds

I'm sick of people who think the only way to get something accomplished is through the Democratic Party. You want people to vote for gay marriage, get your ass out there and convince them. Then the Democratic Party won't have to move at all. That's what the fundamental right did.

I'll continue to say what I believe, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that the rest of the country believes the same. They don't. So I'll keep trying to convince people on issues by giving them info they hadn't thought of.

But when it comes time to vote in a national or Senate election, I can't afford to be so purist as to ignore the fact that people think differently in parts of this country than I do. I'm not willing to give Republicans more and more power so they can destroy absolutely everything. I'd sooner have Liebermann as President than to do that. At least we wouldn't have to fight him on EVERY issue.

[saracat]

26. Funny how the repukes don't compromise, pick a

position and win. Why can't we define ourselves? The middle is just mush. No one votes for mush!

[DaveinMD]

29. did you read the post

sandnsea said that they worked to change people's positions on those issues over time. That's what we need to do. Compromise on our principles was never mentioned.

[sandnsea]

30. I didn't say compromise

I said get your ass out there and start convincing people your position is right. The fundies did that WITHOUT the Republican Party first. The Republican Party came to them when they proved they had the votes, not the other way around. But, when it comes time for elections, the fundies don't threaten to bolt to a third party and that's the difference between the far left and Democrats.

[Pushed To The Left]

88. Exactly!

If libertarian Republicans can vote with members of the religious right (which I find ridiculous), then there is no reason that progressives can't band together!!

[Zhade]

58. Doesn't matter if they think differently. This is about individual rights.

A fundie's "right" to be offended by me kissing a guy does not trump MY right to equal protection under the law. Period.

[ieoeja]

6. Lately it appears that wouldn't be a problem.

From what I can tell we have more Green Party and Socialist Party members on this board nowadays.

[bullimiami]

8. they are too far right for me already

i can barely tolerate them now.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. I second that ... Every time Liberman gets up to talk

"bravado" on defense, I want to blow chunks. Oh, was a nasty visual? LOL ... and what a corrupt group of democratic politicians to whore themselves to the Ruling Class Corporate Masters and beat their chests for never-ending WAR on Ter-O-Ah. :(

[Hippo_Tron]

47. It's okay to be a democrat and not be able to stand Lieberman

I'm a proud democrat and I can personally say that I can't stand Bush ass-kisser Lieberman. But he is another vote in the senate that could help REAL democrats gain control of the committees and thus his existance is tollerable. Let's just make sure that he's never on another national ticket again.

[politicaholic]

10. I'll go with, but the signs I bring to rallys won't be what they want...

to see.

There is nothing wrong with being a liberal. Ann Coulter, Rush, Bill O, Sean Hannity, Mike Wiener are all nutcases, the Dem party should not allow them to put a false label on a legitimate democratic group of good Americans.

[jackster]

11. I may leave....

and become unenrolled (independent in MA) but support progressive and liberal Dems

in good conscience, I couldn't stay with a party that cozies up to corporate america at the expense of working stiffs like me

and you

and you

and you

and you

[bettyellen]

13. Couldn't support it any longer, but may vote Dem with my nose pinched....

nt

[Pirate Smile]

16. Saracat, have you seen this speech by Warner? I don't know much

about him although he actually grew up in the northeast not the south.

I definitely like the speech though. Read the entire thing. It is good.

"In Virginia, we have had to cut $6 billion from our state budget in 16 months. That's because my predecessors cut taxes, increased spending, and assumed the go-go days of the 1990s would last forever.
And this year, while we were busy trying to increase funding for public education - they wanted to eliminate the estate tax to benefit about 400 wealthy families.

But we said, when you're in a hole - the first thing you do is stop digging.

While we were launching the most extensive reform of state government in a generation they tried to kill important reform legislation just to keep me from winning a political victory.

In Washington the last couple of years, we've seen lots of talk, but few results. And we're heading in the wrong direction.

The last time we had a Democratic President, America saw the first budget surpluses in a generation.

Just three years later, the Republicans' own numbers show a future filled with deficits as far as the eye can see.

The last time we had a Democratic President, unemployment fell to record lows. But today it climbs a little higher every month.

The last time we had a Democratic President, the stock market soared. Today, it just sputters.

In 2000, America was promised something called "compassionate conservatism." And you know - that sounded familiar to a lot of us in the South. We had been saying for a long time - balance the budget, but not on the backs of working people.

But they meant something else - and all we got was more of the same.

Look at public education. Two years ago, the No Child Left Behind Act became law. It was a sweeping effort to raise academic standards, improve the quality of teaching, and close the achievement gap.

But there was no money to back it up, and current budget plans leave it almost $10 billion short.

Or look at health care. The rebuilding has begun in Iraq - and they're starting with health care.

If you listened closely after the fighting ended, you might have heard that, "In one year, the US hopes to rebuild 6,000 Iraqi schools, to repair 100 clinics and hospitals, and to provide basic universal health care to 25 million Iraqis."

That's the right thing to do in Iraq - and it's the right thing to do here at home, where more than 40 million Americans still don't have health insurance.

Or look at homeland security. You know, the images of September 11 will always remain in the minds of every American. For me - I was in the middle of a heated campaign. The polls were close, a big debate was coming up, and no one was getting enough sleep.

Our campaign office was just a few miles from the Pentagon. We all climbed up on the roof and watched the smoke rise. And none of the political battles seemed important.

Over the weeks that followed, I found myself inspired by the work of the firefighters, the police, the EMS workers in Virginia, in New York, and in Pennsylvania. They made us all proud to be Americans.

But in many ways, it seems like they have been forgotten - because we've never seen the billions that states were promised to train first responders, help prevent future attacks, and respond to emergencies.

You know, back in February, Governors from both parties met with the President and top White House officials. We shared our concerns about these issues and others.

And we were told, very politely - there simply is not any additional money at the federal level, and you should not expect any.

But the next day - we learned that the federal government had found $26 billion to entice Turkey to cooperate with the war with Iraq.

Now I support our troops and their efforts to change the regime in Iraq. But if the federal government can find the money for a worthy international goal, they should be able to find it for worthy domestic priorities as well.

That's just a snapshot of what's going on in Washington. You know, it looks like the Republicans will keep on talking a good game - and we'll keep cleaning up the mess.

But that means we have to strengthen our party - starting with the grass roots. That means strengthening local Democratic committees. It means identifying good candidates to run for office at all levels.

It means remembering that TV commercials don't win elections - but knocking on doors and meeting people one-on-one does.

It means reaching out to new voters and new Americans - and inviting them to be part of our Democratic family.

And it means having a message that reaches out to all Americans.

We did it in Virginia in 2001 - and if we can do it there, we can do it here in Mississippi, and we can do it again for America.

Virginia hasn't voted for a Democratic President since Lyndon Johnson in 1964. When I ran, the Republicans controlled both houses in the legislature and every statewide office - and the White House picked our Governor to run the Republican National Committee.

And despite those odds, we won because we built a new coalition of Virginians.

We did that by laying out a message that focused on meeting the needs of an information age economy - a message that stressed economic opportunity, educational opportunities, and fiscal responsibility.

We started with the most loyal Democrats. We said to African Americans and to working people - We know that you have been taken for granted in the past. Those days are over. You will help lead this team.

We said, we're going to bring people together - just like Governor Winter showed us how to do here in Mississippi.

And then we reached out to Virginians in rural communities - to people who hadn't voted for a Democrat in a long, long time. And we asked them to give us a chance.

In a 21st century economy, you can be successful anywhere - if you have a good education and job skills.

We talked about giving young people the chance to get a good job in the place they grew up. Because you shouldn't have to leave your family or your hometown to get ahead.

We said, Virginia will never prosper if all the good jobs are in one area, and other places get left behind.

And then we said something that a lot of people had never thought of - you can like NASCAR - you can like hunting - you can like bluegrass music - and you can still vote for a Democrat.

We did all this because we recognized that if you're going to offer people economic hope, you can't spend all your time talking about the same old social issues that have divided us for too long.

You can't move forward if every discussion is about abortion and guns.

Those are all important issues, and we can't ignore them. But they create passion that often distracts us from more fundamental issues.

And let me say it again - if we can do it in Virginia, we can do it for America.

We have to do it for America. Because America deserves better than failed fiscal policy. America deserves better than an economy that leaves millions of people and whole communities behind.

And Democrats offer better. We offer optimism, and we offer hope for the future.

Now as you might guess, a lot of Republicans and Independents supported us. And since then, a lot of them have asked me, Mark - Why exactly are you a Democrat?

And I just smile. Because if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.

Amy Tuck clearly wouldn't understand.

I am a Democrat because since Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence - and since Jackson spoke for the common man - our party has never been the party of the status quo.

Instead, we have been the ones to see a challenge - and do something about it. Let's be honest - it hasn't always worked perfectly. Sometimes it has gotten us in trouble. Sometimes it has split us apart. But sometimes, those are the wages of progress.

And yet, I am a Democrat because the greatest and most noble political experiments of our time had their birth in our party.

I am a Democrat because the New Deal literally saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

I am a Democrat because a generation after a Democratic president started the Peace Corps, you can still find faded photographs of John F. Kennedy on the walls of homes from South Africa to South America.

I am a Democrat because fighting for working men and women is always the right fight.

I am a Democrat because our party led the struggle for civil rights - in the tough places like Virginia and Mississippi - and because we recognize that discrimination and bigotry are not dead - and that we must continue to seek equal opportunity for all.

I am a Democrat because despite our failures, our missteps, and our excesses - we know that waging a war on poverty does not mean fighting the individuals who are poor.

I am a Democrat because we know that today's battle is about the future versus the past - and it's time to put aside yesterday's battles of us versus them.

I am a Democrat because we know that criticizing success won't create a single job.

And most of all, I am a Democrat because when my three daughters go out into the world to make their lives, I want them to find a world where there's less hopelessness - less selfishness - and less violence.

I want them to find a world where there is more opportunity - more understanding - and more hope.

That is the mission of this party.

That is what we work for.

That is why we get up every morning.

That is why we're here tonight.

And our work is not done. "

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/8/03116/3996

[Elise]

18. Talk is cheap

So is what is passing for most Democratic 'principles' these days.

I am sick to death of voting for the evil of 2 lessers.

As someone else posted, there are a lot more socialists here. I'm leaning that way myself.

What to do, what to do ...............

[Pirate Smile]

44. Maybe there should be a Socialist Underground. It seems like people

come here sometimes to just bash Democrats instead of looking for solutions. I know that isn't Saracat.

What should a disrupter who hates Democrats because they aren't far enough to the left be called?

We know the freepers think we are too far to the left. Is there a term for people who think Democrats are too far to the right?

I actually think there is a wide spectrum of Democrats from far left to the center.

[ChiciB1]

53. I Can Agree With You Here

But I'm still sticking with my version of the Democratic Party. Seems to me that some of you have fallen into the TRAP the Repukes wanted you to fall in. Check in as an Independent or Green or whatever! Bet when they read these posts they're really yukking it up!

Why do we KEEP HAVING THIS DISCUSSION?????? Do you really think when it comes time to vote that you'll really SWITCH???

The only way I would EVER abandon the Dems is if they compromise on women's rights or become FUNDAMENTALISTS! I don't see THAT ever happening! If that day should dawn, then the Party isn't Democrat anymore, it's something else. I don't think they would be called Democrats then. Maybe Democratettes?????

[Pirate Smile]

56. I'm not going anywhere and I'm not threatening too. I'm a Democrat and

and probably a more moderate (boo, hiss) one then most people here (or at least it seems that way considering the people who tend to be the most vocal).

I think your response is probably meant for someone else.

[Zhade]

64. "...is if they compromise on women's rights..."

Here's hoping you don't have to live up to those words, though some recent choices by the Dems sure make it questionable.

[Zhade]

63. "Is there a term for people who think Democrats are too far to the right?"

Yes: realists.

[ChiciB1]

67. No I WAS Agreeing WITH You....

about the WIDE spectrum of Democrats. I was simply stating which TYPE I was. And it seems I'm drawing a lot of fire because of it. I can respect your views, and I can understand if you're more moderate. I just don't feel comfortable about hearing so many people BASHING those of us who want to stay.

[Pirate Smile]

69. I see what you mean now. It seems like some people want an umbrella

instead of a big tent.

I want everybody to stay.

[saracat]

22. Warner is known as weak to moderate on abortion.

Early in his career he supported abortion but as Governor he signed a series of anti abortion measures, probably to ensure his political viability. He would throw women over the side if it would guarantee a win. Great speech. He will say anything to win.

[DaveinMD]

24. those measures

passed the Republican legislature with veto proof majorities. There was nothing he could do. He's a good Democrat and was endorsed by NARAL in his campaign.

[Pirate Smile]

31. What were the measures?

[DaveinMD]

46. I believe

a parental notification law

[Pirate Smile]

49. Was there a bypass for abuse or other reasons?

[DaveinMD]

50. I couldn't say

I think there was, but I'm not 100 percent sure.

[Pirate Smile]

59. Well, then geez. What is the problem? This is where we start to lose

people in the middle.

People we need. Pro-choice people who think this is a reasonable restriction.

If you want to be part of a party that never wins any real national seats then join another party.

[Zhade]

61. "Now I support our troops and their efforts to change the regime in Iraq."

Wow. Yeah, he's great.

I know that's out of context, but DAMN, when a guy as reasonable-sounding as Warner says that an illegal war to remove a (horrible, no doubt) head of state who DIDN'T FUCKING ATTACK US...!

The support for the illegal war and illegal occupation is really making it hard to like even likable Dems.

[Pirate Smile]

71. I believe the speech was back in 2003. I was against the Iraq War too.

My daughter heard my Mom and I complaining so much about the Dem's not fighting against it during the run up that she said "I don't like those Democrats either." She was 5 years old. What could I say - their supposed to be the good guys - we just expected a lot more.

I don't know what he has said about it since then. As a Governor, he probably doesn't have to say anything but be supportive of the troops.

I can't get all worked up about it anymore. I guess I made my peace with that when I supported Kerry.

[jody]

17. There are many issues that divide voters. The only way for Democrats

to regain control of congress is to adopt a more central position on enough issues to attract a majority of voters. To dream of retaking congress and simultaneously holding left or extreme left positions on all issues is an impossible dream.

The problem then is to choose the issues on which a compromise can reached.

[Zhade]

74. Compromise is fine, to an extent, but...

...can we first decide on what kind of position is "extreme left"?

For example, the extreme right's position on abortion is "none, period, don't give a damn about rape/incest/health of mother/woman's right to self-sovereignty over her own body, execute abortion doctors".

What is the "extreme left" position on abortion?

[keith the dem]

20. Please look at our system of government

In the parliamentary system, the elected officials decide who to sleep with, in our system we must decide who to sleep with. Most of us would probably vote Green Party if we had a parliamentary system; however we don't. Stay with the party, push to the left but recognize that we need a majority to govern. Splitting off would only give the fascists more power without any way to overthrow them.

[DaveinMD]

21. Warner is a great Democrat

he's done some very good things in Virginia. He even got the Republicans in the legislature to fight over the best way to raise taxes. In the end, they passes a package that is helping them spend more money on health care and education. There is no reason to think that Warner isn't a good Democrat.

[saracat]

23. To some. He is a centrist. I won't vote for one. He is a moderate on

abortion and panders to the right.

[DaveinMD]

25. he doesn't pander to the right

he governs well and is doing great things. He's the first Dem to win in Virginia in 12 years and has moved the state to the left. And he's doing all this despite a two thirds Republican majority in both houses of the legislature. He understands the importance of economic populism.

[w4rma]

32. With that attitude you will have the opposite effect of what you appear to

attempt, saracat.

[Pirate Smile]

43. No moderate Democrats on abortion sounds like a good way to get more

RW Republicans elected. There are many areas of the country that won't elect a very liberal Democrat but they will a moderate Dem so what would you rather do?

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Most people are OK with some limits on late term abortions if they include the exception for the health of the mother.

Many people are OK with some parental notifications as long as their are options for bypass in certain circumstances.

You never answered what abortion restrictions Warner did that pissed you off.

Gay rights - civil unions are now OK with a majority of people (I think it was around 60% or so). This is new and a breakthrough. Marriage still has lower numbers but there has been a lot of movement on this issue so take heart and give it some time.

[Zhade]

76. "...some limits on late term abortions..."

Those ALREADY exist. No need to moderate any further, it's been done already.

[Pirate Smile]

84. The laws vary in each state. I'm not advocating any changes. I'm

just saying don't reject someone outright if their stance on abortion includes approval of those limits.

You are in a fighten' mood tonight. We don't even disagree on this.

I think the RW has created a caricature version of the Democratic Party that Republicans and a lot of Independents (maybe even some Democrats)believe but which doesn't exist.

We haven't done a very good job fighting the PR wars.

[Zhade]

100. Agreed!

NT!

[lojasmo]

27. We'd have to go LEFT to be more center. N/T

[Zhade]

77. THANK you.

NT!

[Misskittycat]

28. We take the party back. eom

[TankLV]

33. You're basic premise is wrong. We are already right of center.

The party would have to move LEFT to be at any center.

If they move right - they are moving FURTHER away from the center.

If they do this - I will NOT vote democratic. I will no longer vote "anybody but a repuke".

I would withhold my vote for the first time ever.

The bigger question is, what is the Democratic Party going to do to RETAIN my vote?

The party will have to EARN my vote this time around!

They can no longer take me for granted.

[cyn2]

34. I'll go back to being an Independent n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. It's already far enough right for me to register Green.

And, vote Green with few exceptions (my rep and one senator who voted against the war).

[damntexdem]

36. I don't know.

But it wouldn't be with the DINOcrats.

[ljm2002]

37. A move to the center...

...would actually be a move LEFT by the party.

The Democratic party has given up on its progressive roots, and for what? We see where it's gotten us, and *who* it's gotten us. The worst, sorriest excuse for a President in U.S. history, bar none. Not to mention minorities in both houses of Congress, and a Judiciary that is in *'s pocket.

And still people claim the party should move right.

What we should do is get back to our roots, and move to the left of the so-called "centrists". A move back to the center would be a good start. That would be a move left, compared to where the party is now.

[jonnyblitz]

38. still vote for them in elections because they are the only

viable choice we have against republicans at the moment. I say this as someone who is WAAAAY to the left of the Democratic Party and who never is enthused about the candidates. I don't know what else to do besides waste my vote on a third party that will never have a chance of winning (the way the system is currently set up)or abstain from voting all together which is NOT my nature.

[saracat]

39. You are in the same quandry as me. I am working as hard as possible to

take us left. I believe that is the only way to offer voters a choice, but if the Party chooses another direction? I just don't know!

[jonnyblitz]

42. it is hard.

because, in the end when nothing much changes, what do you do? vote 3rd party? abstain from voting? I appreciate your and anybodies efforts to move the party to the left btw. :hi:

[NurseLefty]

40. If principles are deserted, then what?

We've already tried to be republican lite. As someone who has voted for Dems all my life, I considered myself to middle of the road politically, and bought the argument about moving to the middle to win.
No more.
It does not work! What we have to do is convince Americans that our PRINCIPLES are in their best interest.
I will NEVER abandon my beliefs, which are hardly radical. They are only framed as being such by republicans and the MSM.

*women's rights
*reproductive rights
*patients' rights
*civil rights
*freedom of speech
*stewardship of the environment
*seeking alternate energy sources
*ETHICAL business practices
*social justice
*responsible foreign policy
*fair labor practices

I am sure I'm leaving something out. Simply put, if Dems abandon any of these, they will lose my support. The alternative? Moving to a democracy where these principles do get a fair shake.

[slay]

41. Democrats -stand up to election fraud in congress on Jan 6th or I go Green

And I feel sure I will not be the only one. If the Dems want to let the Republicans steal the election, then they will pay dearly as the Democratic party falls apart. At the very least, the people deserve an investigation BEFORE Bush is installed as a supposedly fairly elected leader, not afterward. At this point, we are at war with the Republican party. Perhaps the Dems are too owned by the corporations to truly fight the Republicans the way that they should. If so, they leave us no choice but to go Green. Whichever party convinces the people they have what it takes to bring down the Republicans, and fight election fraud, will eventually win. I would have voted Green this year, but after all the backlash against Nader in 2000, I didn't want to risk not defeating Bush. But the Dems had their chance, and they seem to have allowed the election to be stolen. I still hope they prove me wrong. But should they ignore election fraud, they are dead to me. It may take 12 long, hard years before the Green party wins the office of the president, but I will never again vote for a party that doesn't make sure my vote is counted.

[Zhade]

78. Excellent post. A promise I made to myself as well.

I imagine many others have, too.

[snippy]

45. I will continue to support and vote for most democratic candidates.

I have always seen the democratic party as more closely alligned with my values, morals, and interests than any other political party but I have never cared a great deal about the party or its leadership. And I have never agreed with all the things the democratic party has done or supported. I have always seen it just as the most useful tool available for accomplishing many of the political things I consider worthwhile.

In the past that sometimes has included limiting the power of the republican party even though it often was controlled by fairly decent Americans. Now limiting the power of the republican party is the most important thing to me. Decent Americans who vote republican have no control over their party. Control of the republican party lies almost entirely in the hands of the Neo-Cons and Theo-Cons. The Tax Cut Monkeys are the only other republicans that have any influence in the party, but even they are subject to Neo-Con and Theo-Con control.

Neither the Neo-Cons nor the Theo-Cons see any value in the rule of law or the US Constitution. They want to spread death and destruction and US domination internationally and sharply curtail personal and civil liberties, social safety nets and many other socially valuable programs domestically. Social justice and dissent are anathema to these people and they will always strive to eliminate both. But these goals will not be satisfied when the entire "Axis of Evil" has been bombed and destroyed and when the US has reverted to pre-New Deal labor, tax, and economic regulatory laws and the elimination of personal and civil liberties and valuable social programs.

Neo-Con and Theo-Con appetites for their goals will never be satisfied. New countries will have to be dominated through violence or threats and their laws rewritten to remove the concepts of social justice and economic regulation. That is the nature of such people. History teaches that they never stop in their quest for control and domination.

For these reasons, limiting the power of the republican party has become more important to me than ever before. All other political objectives are secondary to that. And I see the democratic party as the most useful tool available to accomplish that. I worry about the likelihood of success but I am convinced of the necessity of trying. I am disappointed about some positions taken and possible changes in the democratic party but I would rather live with that disappointment than not oppose the current republican party with the most useful tool available.

[Pushed To The Left]

90. Amen!!

We need to knock out the radical right, and the Democratic Party is in the best position to do so.

[Moderate Dem]

52. If the Democratic Party goes Right(More Center) I will...

...enjoy myself immensely, because it probably means we won a damn election for a change!

The far left is not the only part of the Democratic Party, last I heard...

[saracat]

54. Ah! Yes. Like we have been winning as moderates currently!

The repukes realize the middle doesn't work .That is why they are RW. We don't stand for anything and don't give people a choice. No one will vote for Repug lite!

[DaveinMD]

70. I want to say this

its not a left v right thing right now. We didn't lose this year because we were too left or too centrist. We lost because we never made an argument based on economic populism. When we make that argument, we win.

[Zhade]

79. Hard to run on economic populism when your candidate supported NAFTA.

Otherwise, I fully agree with you.

[DaveinMD]

80. still possible

Clinton did it. I hate NAFTA, but there are other issues. It was Clinton's biggest mistake.

[Zhade]

81. Possible, sure. Still harder than someone who doesn't support NAFTA.

I understand Kerry wanted to "tweak" it (though how you can tweak corporate-written law when you've been funded by corporations in the past is beyond me), but just having initially supported it will leave a rancid taste in many workers' mouths - and those are exactly who you have to reach with economic populism.

Still possible, but an uphill struggle. And I agree, Clinton really fucked us over on that - promising worker protections, than dumping those and signing it anyway. Betrayal of workers both here and abroad, IMIO.

[DaveinMD]

82. what was worse

is that he pushed it before health care reform. That was a major reason health care reform didn't pass. He should have promised businesses he'd fight for NAFTA if they got behind health care reform.

[Zhade]

83. I agree, provided he had kept in worker protections.

Okay, see, here's the funny thing - some call you a moderate. Others who are really DLCers here call themselves the same.

Yet you and I can agree on NAFTA, while some DLCers support it AS IS! Why is it that you and I see eye-to-eye on this, yet some alleged Dems DON'T? Are they just horribly misinformed?

[DaveinMD]

85. the truth is

I'm not moderate. I'm a pragmatic liberal. My first job out of college was at the AFL-CIO. I've done work for NARAL both nationally and locally. I think all the left right thing is bullshit. I thought so when the DLC pushed it. I think so when others push it. I believe in populism.

Lots of Dems have bought the lie that all free trade is good. A lot of this is that most economists preach this all the time. Even some liberal economists believe this. Of course, its not accurate. Free trade with worker protections and standards is great, but NAFTA doesn't have that.

[Zhade]

101. I completely agree with your post.

NT!

[DaveinMD]

102. great

I think most people I know would find it funny that people here think I'm a moderate. I'm glad we agree on so much.

[Pushed To The Left]

91. That might be a good strategy

At the Conceptual Guerilla website, the author says that it all comes back to cheap labor conservatism. It's based on economics, but he shows how social issues are related to cheap labor conservatism as well.


http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/

[Pushed To The Left]

92. That might be a good strategy

At the Conceptual Guerilla website, the author says that it all comes back to cheap labor conservatism. It's based on economics, but he shows how social issues are related to cheap labor conservatism as well.


http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/

[lojasmo]

86. Ah, but Kerry DID THAT, and we LOST.

So your theory doesn't hold water.

[Pepperbelly]

55. thta's not even an issue right now ...

this is about who any of us support. This is about the survival of at least a two-party system and the system of checks and balances, rights, and safeguards against a tyrany of the majority.

Who gives a fuck about this inside baseball shit?

We have some HUGE fish to fry here and now and we better start taking a good, long, suspicious look at every single thing these bastards do. We have to protect the fillibuster through whatever means we can bring to bear.

I fear for the country.

[Capn Sunshine]

89. Just remember,to find the "Center"

Look to your left.
You won't find it to the right.

[nascarblue]

93. If no seanator stands up, I'm out

There are very few truely free Democrats anyways. And for the most part, they get sabotaged by K street before they can get any power. Until the public gets so sick of that, things won't change. The media doesn't help by their attaching "conspiracy theorists" and "tin foil hats" to anyone that dares dig up the truth.. We have an evironment right now that makes Watergate and Iran Contra look like Sesame Street and no big media will do anything about it. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld could be charged with murder and war crimes right now no problem.

[moggie12]

94. Center is better than Right-wing

Winning with Warner or Bayh would be a lot better than losing in '08 to someone like Bill Frist. Old adages are true: "Politics is the art of the possible" and "Half a loaf is better than none". Old fogie 45-year-old, minivan driving mommies like me aren't going to vote for someone like Dean -- we're just not, trust me!! I hang out with a lot of middle-class people!! Don't you remember when Dean said he was "unwilling to pronounce OBL guilty without a trial"? Dean is a well-meaning man, but he is political cyanide for the Democratic Party.

[The Zanti Regent]

95. I will work for secession.

Bush killed my son.

The only thing I have left to lose is the chains the Jesusistas put on me.

[stepnw1f]

96. I Will Leave This Fascist Country

I will not invest my time in something so conplicite to corruption. Or maybe they are all in it together after all.

[IStriker]

97. Leave

[Piperay]

105. Still vote Democratic

I'm a yellow-dog BUT they won't get any money from me.