I'm sorry, but this is another 'Dean Speech' thread

[WilliamPitt]

because there's an aspect to this issue that I haven't seen covered here yet, and I think it's important. I will take it as a given that Dean was pumping up his people after a disappointing showing. I will further take it as a given that they deeply, deeply appreciated his motivation. Furthermore, the speech in its entirety was excellent.

That's not the point.

The point is that Howard Dean was a national punchline today. That one clip where he bellows the states names and then yowls was broadcast on every single talk radio station from coast to coast, was on heavy rotation in the news from dawn to dusk, made it on to ESPfreakinN tonight, and will in all likleyhood enjoy further play on Leno and Letterman and the Daily Show.

The point isn't what he was doing. The point is how it played in Peoria, and it was damaging. Face it: People heard that and were flipped out by it without having to absorb the media spin. Dean is going to be dealing with that for the next several days going into New Hampshire, and it is going to take him off message.

The point is that blaming the media won't cut it here. Take it as a given that the media is hunting him. When one is being hunted, one should not volunteer to stick one's face in front of the sniper scope. See Bill Clinton for reference. He knew they were hunting him, and he threw himself under the bus via Monica. Dean, full in the knowledge that the media is after him, decided to go full roar on national television, and gave them a clip to die for.

Sorry, folks. I blame Howard for this one. Like it, lump it, but this is the story coming out of Iowa. The fact that he lost is not nearly as damaging as this whole fiasco. He could have easily recovered from a third place showing. This is now the story, coast to coast, and the two combined are bad news.

[HFishbine]

1. Apology accepted (nt)

[Ninga]

19. Maybe the SOTU will get the pundits

to get off Dean's back. Yes, yes, yes, you are right, but don't apologize.

It's not what happens, it's how one reacts and deals with it. The next week will tell the tale. I'm sick at heart, Dean's passion and true advocacy of everyday folks is just not matched in the others.

We deserve that and more.

Given that every office holder has the opportunity to grow into the role, I think Dean is like the little engine that could.......chug, chug onward and upward Howard.

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. it's got to help...

[Guaranteed]

156. That's right. The SOTU is THE story. nt

[KoKo]

2. Once I saw his speech at 4:30 p.m. est for the first time on C-Span link..

I had no worries about whether he would become a "national punch line," "national joke," or whatever!

When I saw that wonderful introduction by Tom Harkin who was so magnificent in the Wellstone Memorial and then saw Dean DEFYING the Media by giving a Blockbuster Speech to cheering waving throngs of young and old folks who were his campaign workers all over Iowa...and the Iowans he PRAISED in this speech....I knew that this gracious loving man was defintly the one I will be with!

The disinformation on DU about Dean's and really Harkin's speech, also was so Righ Wing that it made me ashamed at what is going on with people trying to influence our MIGHTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY! We don't always see the "rot" within....but in the last three years it's much easier to spot than before......maybe since the 60's when we really new...and it was dormant but working it's evil within. (WOW! Chimp has me using the big "E" WORD....!

[WilliamPitt]

5. So I'm 'evil'?

[KoKo]

33. No....you're pragmatic and see your future with Kerry. He's an easy

person to go with. Both Kerry and Edwards are "easy." I could fold up now and go for them. Fine, I'm so tired of fighting. Maybe the "War" was correct....I should be a "true patriot" and fight for "oil for US business and homeowners and SUV drivers."

Just go to sleep......go to sleep.......and let Kerry and Edwards...lull me into our Dem victory.......so much experience...I'm sooooooo tired.....why should I care about ......PNAC/BFEE/IRAN/CORPORATE CRIME/JOB LOSS/NAFTA/GATT/SS/PATRIOT ACT/CAPPS II/KYOTO TREATY/NATIONAL DEBT/TRADE IMBALANCE.........sigh.....sleep....snooze.....whatever....give me the EASY GUYS! I Love Kerry and Theresa.....(yes, they could bring PIZAZZ and ARTS back to AMERICA!)

BUT NO!!!!!!!!!!!! Not with America STOLEN! The COLD WAR???? LIES ABOUT VIET NAM......ALL ELSE? Just to have a new "JFK and JACKIE?"

Yes...Will, I'm being harsh, here......there is evil out there....I'm not saying it's Kerry...but it's easy to be a tool..as we all here know.

:-( (Hey, don't crap at me that this is rambling s**t.) I answered you honestly....I don't want to hear anything......just don't reply.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

83. I hope you're not a Dean supporter - he drives an SUV....

along with the fact that he's Conservative on the following issues: fought against Medical Marijuana bill, Affirmative Action, Death Penalty, not for the Kyoto Treaty, gun control, welfare reform, snowmobiles in Vermont preserves, cut/underfunded programs to mentally ill, fiscal conservative, harsh on drugs, NAFTA, against methedone programs, cuts in medicare/social security, pro-prosecution, pro-prison, anti-criminal defense, pro-corporation, funds from energy companies, Enron, Halliburton, pro-embargo against Cuba, pro-AIPAC, increase defense spending, campaign finance, not for universal health care, not good on indian affairs, not good on diversity, pro-states rights.

[in_cog_ni_to]

86. *Gasp*....No Way!!!! n/t

[KoKo]

105. I don't think you've really been over to Dean's site or checked out the

photo's of the Dean house to see how he really lives. In Vermont folks might need an SUV.....here in the Piedmont of NC one wonders about the practicality...however those folks would say "I go 'off road' in the Mountains...or I drive on the beach."

So...what the hell! Make and SUV that we all can drive that's energy efficient? :shrug: as far as the other stuff....well I don't know any of our Dem Candidates you couldn't nit pik or fault......

[creativelcro]

168. Pragmatic, well put.

[Loren645]

67. Not evil. But very very heavy handed.

I agree with post #3. No commentary was necessary. If commentary
is made, it should come from a Dean supporter (the family), lest it
be mistaken for gloating.

I'm a Clark & Kucinich supporter. And I found some of yesterday's
events to be very sad, for more than one candidate and his supporters.
This is precisely the time to back off and give them/us some space.
IMO people don't respond well to being hammered with the obvious.
They tend to just dig in. It's reflexive.

[GalleryGod]

79. Just "Tellin' It Like it IS",Mr. Cosell!

You all thought Dukakis in a tank was BAD!?
:yourock:

BTW-Why did the folks in the Val NEED to be "fired-up"?

[Loren645]

153. Oh, don't get me wrong, this thread risks alienating Dean supporters

Big time.
And frankly if they decide to look at other candidates,
this could make them reluctant to look at Kerry, and more
willing to look at Clark.

So as a Clark supporter, not especially my business.

If I was a Dean supporter I'd resent this.

[liberalhistorian]

185. You know what?

It appears that any thread that doesn't worship Dean totally and wholeheartedly alienates Dean supporters, and that, frankly, is getting a little tiresome.
Dean is not the liberal everyone wants to make him out to be, he is far more of a centrist, and even a conservative on some issues, than some people want to believe.
You cannot run a campaign on the "politics of anger" for too long, sooner or later you need more substance and more of a reason for people to vote for you besides anger. Dean does, indeed, appear to have a streak of anger and menace that does not bode well for the general election.

[knight_of_the_star]

What rot?

So Howard Dean is the only hope for the salvation of the soul of the Democratic Party? Should I convert and repent my sinful Clark ways? Should I just not think when I vote in the primary and just go by the polls and who has the most money?

On second thought, I think not.

[TennesseeWalker]

27. Phooey. He screwed up.

Not everything is a right wing conspiracy. Dean can recover from that silly speech if he works hard enough and has a thick enough skin.

Honestly, there's a reason we just don't annoint our leaders without vetting them. You find out more about what you're made of when you face adversity..."what doesn't kill you makes you stronger...." or some such new age blather...:)

[NashVegas]

42. By Any Chance Do You Have a Direct URL?

I keep trying to play it from C-Span, and it keeps trying to come up in QuickTime - and of course that ain't working with Real Media.

[KoKo]

62. You MUST see this SPEECH! I have Real Audio and it downloaded, do you

have IE....that might work. I have "Quick Time" but that isnt' what C-Span uses. No matter what you think about Dean....you MUST see this speech to decide on YOUR OWN! Do not take the word of the DU'ers who trashed Dean....make up YOUR OWN MIND! Please!

I think it's so controversial that C-Span might replay it...and our DU'ers will do the "repeat" here...for time. Please look for that if your connection doesn't work out for the C-Span link.

[NashVegas]

72. Okay, Got It

Found the full link on the bottom of the page.

[liberalhistorian]

186. I did see the speech, and I must say

I really was not that impressed at all. I'm sorry if people are offended or upset by that. It's just my opinion, unfortunately, a lot of other people I've talked to felt the same way.

[SW FL Dem]

132. Dean's Advisers clearly believe the speech was a mistake

I saw clips of Dean's speeches today in New Hampshire. He
started out by saying that people were going to hear a different kind of speech from him today and went on to explain that his new approach was to go back to the style of speeches that won him several elections in Vermont.

[Rich Hunt]

175. call it what it is

"elitist".

Some states have a populist tradition - maybe they'd recognize the form better.

[liberalhistorian]

184. I'm sorry, I understand the point you're

trying to make, but I must respectfully disagree. Dean looked like a total fool in that speech, and anyone who saw it who didn't know him is not likely to vote for him. My parents wanted to like him and were watching him, and they thought he was drunk, they couldn't believe it. And everyone I've talked to since has felt the same way.

DU is not, unfortunately, representative of the country as a whole. I think those of us who are on here a lot sometimes tend to forget that. And Will is right, that did not at all make a good impression, and I think Dean is going to start sinking after this. I know I can't support him anymore. We have to face the fact that in mainstream America, he is simply not electable, and he's brought a lot of that on himself. I like him tremendously, but I wish he'd bring his temperament under control and quit giving ammunition to the media whores.

All I've heard since Monday from people about Dean has been very negative. It doesn't matter what DU thinks, it matters what the rest of the country, particularly the swing and undecided voters, think, and what they think is, unfortunately, and as much as we hate to think it, controlled and shaped by the media.

[The Magistrate]

3. Indeed, Mr. Pitt

It was a self-evidently grotesque performance for a professional politician; no commentary was necessary. It has cost him dearly....

[MiniMoog]

104. Were this a game of Chess,

I would have considered this a repulsive move, rather than a beautiful sacrifice and note my opponent lacked the vision to see this defense of his King as illusory. A dignified King Castleing is perfered...

If a good rumble of Texas Hold 'em poker, Mr. Dean makes the error of all over zealous players: Betting on every hand, and caught conspicuously bluffing on the River. An unfortunate denouement.

MiniMoog

[Rich Hunt]

174. nothing is 'self-evident'

Nothing of this nature is 'self-evident' in the US. It's a culturally, economically and regionally diverse place.

It's only self-evident to people who think their values are universal. Or to people who haven't studied history.

[wyldwolf]

4. Here is my comment. He sounded like Busta Rhymes

His "yowl" sounded very much like Busta Rhymes in his hit hip hop song "Woo-Hah!! Got You All in Check!"

Seriously.

[ShaneGR]

11. You are right

I'm still waiting for Sharpton to start using Snoop Dog's "G's up Hoes Down" song as a campaign entrance theme. BTW, I love Sharpton.

[wyldwolf]

14. The moment I heard the Dean "yowl" I thought "Woo-ha!"

Got you all in check!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Stop That! You Guys Are Cracking Me UP!

Good thing the door to my office is closed!

ROTFL!

DTH

[KoKo]

110. Just wait until Wes let's out a real Southern "Rebel Yell" and you will

rush out of the room or cower under your desks. He's capable of it....since he knows how to pray in the Southern African American and Baptist Churches with his hands in the sky "Waitin' for Jesus to Come!"

Lots of DU'ers would have big problems with "Waitin' for Jesus to Come" but hey....WTF I'm Southern and can understand all that stuff! LOL's On You ;-)'s

[liberalhistorian]

188. WOW!

Great pictures of all three men, especially Edwards!

[LuminousX]

6. Good or bad

Whether it is an issue or not, there isn't anything we can do about it and trying to figure out if the speech was the cause of a percentage point drop or not is impossible.

I guess a there just can't be enough threads talking about the speech.

[knight_of_the_star]

7. Well put Mr. Pitt, as always

I was listening to Howard Stern this morning on the radio on my way to classes (I know, I shouldn't be, but the station has good rock) and he was having fun running that particular clip over and over and over with ACDC's "Highway to Hell" playing in the background while making snarky remarks about it. I can only imagine what others are doing with this.

[EllieDem]

10. Dean is just damn lucky that Saturday Night Live

is a rerun this weekend.

[ShaneGR]

20. Do they have anyone playing Dean? Read this!

That would be funny. They could do a great debate! They could have someone dressed up as the guy from the Munsters (Kerry), a guy dressed in full military uniform with M16 (Clark), a good looking guy preaning himself with a mirror (Edwards), a guy screaming and yelling (Dean), and a snide little pintsize windbag (Lieberman).

[jpgray]

31. I'd watch that!

Though I think Kerry is better played as the Addam's family's "Lurch", if a supporter's opinion means anything to you. :)

[SidDithers]

114. Jeff Richards does a pretty good Dean...

He's the same guy who does Drunk Girl.

Sid

[indigo32]

163. The only one I've seen

was when they were watching TV and John Edwards was baking cookies.
I don't know who played who... but the only even HALFWAY decent impressions were of Gep and Lieberman. Kerry might have been OK but didn't stick out. The Dean impersonator sucked and Edwards was more of a joke (which was actually a LITTLE funny) than an impression.

[TexasSissy]

21. I think we're gonna see this on SNL.

[knight_of_the_star]

23. Most certainly

SNL would have WAAAAAAY too much fun with Dean if it wasn't.

[liberalhistorian]

190. LOL!

Oh, I'm sure SNL will find a way to get it into one of their skits or news parodies next week!

[incapsulated]

50. Ok, I have to admit...

The Highway to Hell idea is very funny, at least in concept.

Now I won't be able to get that song out of my head...

[knight_of_the_star]

It was geat!

I was laughing my ass off the whole time, they way they played it. They had Dean's clip going with Highway to Hell in the background of the clip, it was REALLY good, but not in a political sense.

[incapsulated]

61. "..but not in a political sense."

lol, understatement of the day! :)

[incapsulated]

8. Your apology is not accepted!

Stop the Madness!

:silly:

[John_H]

18. I think the point of the post was that the "madness" in now a reality

[incapsulated]

41. My point was..

If there are any more "so... about that speech" posts on the first page, they will make up more than 90% of the topics!

[MoonRiver]

9. I agree. Howard's foot was firmly implanted in his mouth with no help

from the media. He had decided that #1 was his to take in Iowa and beyond. When it didn't happen the guy blew a gasket. This does not bode well for his campaign. And I used to be a supporter of his. Sad.

[KoKo]

112. My link from C-Span this afternoon showed a Magnificent "Rally the Troops!

Speech...I gotta believe many of you were asleep last night and just logged on when the "partisans" got going with their Dean Trash. Either that or many are friends of Drudge....:shrug:

[liberalhistorian]

191. Excuse me, but just because

I and many others weren't at all impressed with his speech does NOT mean we are "friends of Drudge!"

And another post had it right, Dean felt entitled to Iowa and when he didn't get what he wanted, he blew his stack and that does not at all look good for the future of his campaign, nor should it.

[Bread and Circus]

12. Dean was trying to make lemonade from lemons...but...

unfortunately I think his very human emotions and his
very human nature got in the way.

I feel bad about it. You could see how upset and disappointed
he was, trying to cover it up with a smile and a hoot and a holler.
It just looks really bad.

As a Clark supporter, I could feel better about it...instead I
am just kinda sad.

[madaboutharry]

97. Sad is a good word to

choose right now. That is how I feel. The man obviously does care deeply about this country and about the future of the democratic party. He has put so much of his life into this, it also makes me feel rather sad to have seen this happen. Maybe he will overcome this, but I think he is going to have to deal with the fact that politics is very unforgiving.

[jonnyblitz]

13. damn. hard to argue with that analysis

no matter whose side you're on. :thumbsup:

[mlawson]

15. Will, I suspect that Dr Dean would give PLENTY now,

to go back and redo that one. I feel sorry for him; we have all let our emotions go unchecked, exactly at the worst possible moment, and danmed if he didn't do it up royally!!!

But I agree with you; there is no way this doesn't damage his cause.

[KoKo]

115. mlawson....I've always respected you as a totally fair person on DU...Did

you see the speech or rely on DU'ers or the Whore Media or "chosen" sound clips to sway your mind? This doesn't sound like you to me. Please tell me you saw the speech with the Harkin introduction leading into Dean and then Dean rallying all those young supporters who braved the cold of Iowa to be there for him? Did you hear the cheers? Did you hear the energy? I wouldn't have....if I'd listened to some "partisan" Du'ers last night and through the day, until I heard the speech for myself on C-Span? And that was hearing it with crappy video but the audio was great. The cheering crowd almost drowned him out so he HAD to SHOUT! That's the context that's been missing here on DU and in the Whore Media. The Context and the TRUTH!

[liberalhistorian]

192. Many of us accept the fact

that you were impressed by the speech and agree fully with your right to feel that way. Why, then, can't you do the same for those of us who were NOT impressed by the speech (and yes, I DID see the one you're referring to, and not just the media-whore spin). Why do you consider anyone who wasn't impressed by the speech and who thinks it really damaged Dean and showed that he wasn't the God some on here seem to think he is, to be a "friend of Drudge" or something like that? You have the right to feel the way you do, and so do we.

[TennesseeWalker]

16. I believe that's an accurate assessment.

I'm sure Governor Dean was trying to re-energize his supporters, who had worked so hard for him. I'm also sure he was extremely tired from flying all over the country, attempting to nail down endorsements and voters. I appreciate his energy, his committment, his effort and his ideas.

Having said that, the speech really, really bothered me. I can't remember the last time I saw something like that happen live, and it was all I could do to watch. I kept hoping he would recover, and when he didn't, I simply hurt for him and his supporters.

So, the best way to deal with it is with humor, and let him see if he can recover. Laughter can be the best medicine, and people made jokes about Bill Clinton constantly. He wound up as one of the most popular presidents (approval rating-wise) of recent history.

Never surrender, and let the best man win. :)

[kentuck]

22. I think it will stay with him for a few days....

"Dean is going to be dealing with that for the next several days going into New Hampshire, and it is going to take him off message."
========================================

However, I am not sure that it is a fatal blow although it may linger long enough to harm him in NH. It is not what he said as much as what he said is spun by media, opponents, comedians, etc. However, over time, I sense it may be seen as much a positive as a perceived negative at this moment...

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

24. if any other candidate had given this speech...

...we would have heard "he looks energetic and still has fight left in him" and so on...


was it the best speech he could have given under the circumstances?

No, but the way the media and folks here are spinning it is disgusting. I've yet to hear anyone argue issues with Dean. All we get get is an endless barrage of personality smears.

[lurk_no_more]

87. I've yet to hear anyone argue issues with Dean?

Didn't Kerry just recently ask dean for a one on one debate? That was the second time if I remember right, and dean turned him down both times. I don't think any of the candidates are afraid to argue issues with dean.

Maybe, just maybe, if dean would've taken Kerry up on a debate instead of hit and run attacks, dean just may have relayed his message better to the folks in Iowa.

Why is it whenever dean shoots himself in the foot, it's either the media or the folks here spinning? Since coming to DU, all I've ever heard every time dean puts his foot in his mouth and it's pointed out, is a whine fest of blame on everyone except dean himself. We all saw what happened last night, and the only ones spinning are those that refuse to see what was a train wreck.

I feel bad right now for dean and his supporters for what will be labeled as a preview of things to come if dean is President, and I respect those that remain supportive, but I will not be accused in part to what happened as somehow being partially my fault for having the insight of not choosing dean as my candidate.

Responsibility begins at home!


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[GURUving]

102. I agree

and I chose Kerry a couple of weeks ago for some reason.

He did sound a bit strange, but what the hell, he's been busting his ass for months and deserves a bit of understanding.

He was firing up the supporters who were there. Yes, he should have known it would be shown everywhere, but, as others have said, at least he has passion.

If any candidate was perfect, I would be voting for me. I have never agreed with or "fallen in love with" any candidate ever, and I am a million years old. Not.

[liberalhistorian]

193. I'm sorry, but I don't need

to "spin" something I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears, and I'm perfectly capable of making my own judgments and I was not at all impressed.

In fact, I don't think he came off well at all. Now, that's just my own opinion, and I'm sure many others will feel differently. But I have the right to that opinion, just as you have the right to yours, and I don't really appreciate the fact that I and others who feel the same way I do are accused of falling victim to spin, etc., just because we don't worship Dr. Dean. I am perfectly capable of making my own judgments.

[David Zephyr]

25. Like You Really Give a Shit About Dean, Pitt.

You "blame Howard for this one"? One? Did you really say "one"?

You blame Howard every week or so.

Tell us something new.

But hey, thanks for looking out for Howard Dean. Boy, we are soooo lucky.

:eyes:

[robsul82]

63. Seriously, dude.

As much as I'm sure it PAINS you to do so, Dean doesn't need your aching sympathy.

Later.

RJS

[liberalhistorian]

194. Will happens to be

totally right about this, whether you and the other Dean supporters on here want to believe it or not. He has the right to his opinion, just as we all do, and, frankly, the attitude from many Dean supporters on here towards those of us who don't fall down and worship Dean is getting really tiresome.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. "Sounds Like the WWF!"

Totally unprompted comment from my politically apathetic co-worker.

DTH

[TennesseeWalker]

30. So is Joe Trippi the Vince MacMahon of Politics?

....sorry...couldn't resist...and that's the bottom line...:)

[GalleryGod]

85. Apparently.

:silly: :wtf: :dunce:

[AngryAmish]

158. Bang! Bang!

[Jersey Devil]

28. I'm a Dean supporter and it reminded me of Howard Beal

in "Network" when he said, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore." What the hell was he thinking?

[lovedems]

29. I take it you are in Peoria, Illinois?

I am in Springfield and I can't tell you how many times the speech has been aired over and over again. I am not committed to a candidate yet and really like (note present tense) Howard Dean but I don't think that display will play well in the Midwest. I think he had an opportunity to show a gracious side because he did get one of the 3 tickets out of Iowa, but instead he portrayed himself in an almost lunatic fashion. I am not ready to hold it against him but I am interested to see how he acts for the next week in NH and what lessons he learned from Iowa.

There is always the thought that it will be overshadowed by the SOTU, but the reality of the media is they will show Dean's speech and then a calm (but stupid) chimp. That is going to be worse.

[adadem]

You are correct n/t

[dreissig]

32. The Gary Hart Thing

Gary Hart didn't think reporters would follow him around, look in his window, poke through his garbage. He relied on his belief in propriety, that such behavior was beneath even journalists. When they did it anyhow, he was right to call Foul. It is now a given that whatever the sleazo's of the media choose to do, the candidate should have seen it coming. It sells newspapers, I suppose.

The British have had their gutter press for years, but they also have a real press that chases down real stories. We don't have that. There's a whole list of questions I have about events taking place right now, and we'll never get the answers.

It's hard to know people like say, Tim Russert, live with themselves. I remember his question to Hillary Clinton that began with something to the effect of When are you going to apologize for saying you trust your husband? (I know I've got the details wrong, but it was something to that effect.)

I never watch Tim Russert anymore ... never turn that show on. I thought I'd miss it but I don't. It's been several years since David Broder said anything that offended me. I am going to forget George Will's name soon ... give me another month or so. This liberation is a gift of the terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center, making my television inoperative since September 11th.

[Fleshdancer]

34. thank goodness we have yet another thread on the subject

I would hate to talk about anything meaningful. Instead, let's all waste the entire week pretending to be pop psychologists and over analyze this to death. :eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

40. You deny that this is the story coming out of Iowa?

You deny that it has been played ad nauseam on radio and TV? You deny, therefore, that such an airing will have an effect?

Denial ain't just a river in Africa, I guess.

[NashVegas]

49. From the Little I've *Seen*

Emphasize SEEN -

the audio portion is much more damaging on its own than w/video.

Bad enough, but at this point, I'm done worrying about it.

[Fleshdancer]

55. Do YOU deny that GD2004 is littered with dozens of these threads?

[Jerseycoa]

149. I wish I had kept count

It feels like a hundred times I've heard it today.

[tridim]

35. The real story is..

Why isn't Bush a national punchline? The guy is a pathological liar and he belches more lies every time he speaks. Seems a bit more serious than Dean's 30 second "gaffe". What you wrote isn't wrong, but all things are relative, and this speech means exactly nothing. Smart Americans will understand this is 99% media hype.

[NashVegas]

45. Because No One But Jon Stewart & Company Have the Balls

to show Bush for what he really is.

[Gman]

36. The post mortem of the Dean campaign will in all likelihood

be that the primal scream was the moment that ended it. Being colorful is one thing. Having a reputation for being emotional and a hot head is another.

Sorry if this offends Dean supporters but sometimes you just can't control a candidate that self-destructs. And I really do like Dean.

[liberalhistorian]

195. He does, indeed,

have a reputation for being emotional and a hothead, with a hair-trigger temperament, a reputation which is well-deserved, IMHO. And, like it or not, that doesn't go over too well with the people whose support he needs in order to even come close to winning.

[Ripley]

37. So now it's a fiasco for a candidate to be a real person.

Face it, you guys, like the media hate anything that is "reality" not that pseudo-reality crap like phoney posturing on battleships.

Give it a rest. He acted like a real person, not a tired old limp noodle of a politician trying to make a victory lap with the help of viagra or anti-depressants.

How it played in Peoria...who gives a fuck? 3 percent of those Iowans bother to caucus, so who cares?

Besides, I believe it was John Kerry who did a gesture like he was smoking a joint of marijuana while the cameras rolled. How does that go over on the good nice Christians in Peoria? I guess it's better than an honest candidate yowling from his heart and gut. :eyes:

[beaconess]

53. Real person? I hope not...

How it played in Peoria...who gives a fuck? 3 percent of those Iowans bother to caucus, so who cares?

Exhibit A for why 82% voted against Howard Dean.

[The_Counsel]

183. Way To Pile On, There...

"Exhibit A for why 82% voted against Howard Dean."

Uh huh.

You are aware that better than 60% "voted against" the eventual caucus winner, no?

[KittyWampus]

38. Also Blame His Supporters

Every time Dean screwed up, his supporters showered him with money rather than confront him.

It is like rewarding a child who repeats inappropriate behavior.

[adadem]

44. Amen n/t

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. and i'm sure more are doing it today

they are trying to buy this myth that he's teflon coated but there isn't enough money to get this slide.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

39. where was the coverage

for "is our children learning" and other bush screw-ups?

[Catholic Sensation]

99. they were busy worrying

that if they made any mention of Bush's fuck ups they would be declared OH MY GOD liberal.

[KoKo]

116. EXACTLY! Coverage must have been like it was on DU: Dean is a Maniac!

He needs meds.....my children ran from the room when they saw him....he is totally freaking out...he's yelling in Spanish....what's he saying??....he didn't thank his Iowa Supporters....what is this screaming....would you want his finger on "The Button?"....Dean has totally lost it.....I can't believe I thought Dean was a candidate I could trust....Dean has totally lost my vote...Dean is a WWF Wrestler...he's like a coach.....he's turing me off....on and on and on... That's all I heard last night since I refused to turn on the TV!

Trash DEAN....Kill Dean.....A Failure. It was disgusting last night and today here. Until I heard the actual speech I thought he had cracked up!

I should have known better......Don't trust anyone.....Even the folks you "Think" you should trust, here. :-(

[Imajika]

43. Excellent post...

..reminds me of why I always keep an eye out for your commentary and opinions.

I agree with your analysis on this subject 100%.

Imajika

[Southsideirish]

47. Howard - persecuted by media - Buchanan & Scarborough agree.

This isn't' me talking - last night on Creepy Matthew's post caucus analysis - quoting Scarborough - "I'd like to see ANY candidate take the beating in the media that Dean has received the last 5-6 weeks and survive it!" Sentiments echoed in spades by Buchanan.
In other words its not just we Dean people that have witnessed this sewering and I feel that Howard *has* to address it.
They ruined Al Gore in 2000 by their nasty aspersions ("liar") - now they did it to this year's front runner. Wake up Democrats - none of our candidates are safe from these insidious SOB's. Now its Dean- if your guy is ever front runner - it will be him.

[lancdem]

71. What do Scarborough and Buchanan think happened to Clinton??

Don't they remember N.H. in 1992 with Gennifer Flowers, draft-dodging, etc. He not only survived, he won the friggin' election!

[ecstatic]

119. if they succeed this time, we'll never get to choose our own candidates nt

[democracyindanger]

48. Oh Will

I've just lost so much respect for you.

Not really, I think your post is dead on, but the above was going to be posted by someone sooner or later and I just wanted to be first. :silly:

[SoCalDem]

51. What we have here, is.....

another Wellstone-ian moment.. People will see what they want to see in it..

Could he have been more reserved?? Sure..
Should he have been more reserved?? Probably..

What's done is done..

If he wants to "recover" from this, he will "use" it himself and not allow the media and the pundits to use it against him..

The problem with modern technology, is that there is no escaping it.. Before the wall-to-wall coverage, there were lots of speeches just like this, but they were only viewed by the people who were there.. They would be talked about and written about, but unless you were there, it was impossible to translate the "moment"..

Thanks to video and the cutting room, the public personna of anyone who goes before the camera, can be manipulated to show whatever the editor wants to be seen,,

Most people will only see that small clip..

[MoonRiver]

60. Right! Dean's mantra will now be:

'who are you gonna believe; me, or your lying eyes.'

[displacedtexan]

52. Network news added the "Sit down and shut up" clip.

Not only are Mr. and Mrs. Middle America wincing over the "YEEEEEAAAGGH" speech. Now they're being shown the relay of the freeper incident (which had almost disappeared down the memory hole).
This is bad on many levels.

[patricia92243]

54. I liked the speech.

[meow mix]

56. YEEEEYAAHHHHHH! its everywhere

on radio, even during the traffic and weather segments!

u just hear it played quietly in the background.
YeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaah!!
and then friggen traffic guy starts laffing.

[KoKo]

118. It was wonderful if you heard it in context! It was a "rally cry." and

not the wierd way you and others are portraying it. Why don't you post the link before you comment about it?

[meow mix]

136. i did hear.. however

the point is - sure the dean supporters loved it.

but that doesnt mean it was the best idea! it wasnt
becaussse..
most everyone else did not love it.
and you NEED most everyone else to join you
(not running away scared or laffing)

so, are you glad dean chose to give you this rally cry cookie? even though it hurts his run at the presidency?
wouldnt you rather he had given an entirely different speech?
just wondering

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redneck Socialist]

59. Damn it Will...

Ya beat me to the punch.

I'm a Dean supporter and when your candidate is featured on both ESPN's Around the Horn (The Crossfire of sports talk for those of you who don't know.) and The Howard Stern Show it is not good news.

If Dean pulls it out and goes on to win the nomination I am afraid the clip of that speech will be the 2004 version of bobble head Mike and the tank. Unfortunately Dean's speech (and how it is being reported) crystallizes every fear and concern of those already uncertain and uneasy with Dean.

Mr Pitt I wish you were wrong, I wish I was wrong, but I don't think we are.

[Duder]

64. Pure genius...

Made news of Kerry's win insignificant today.

Tomorrow will be SOTU coverage.

[Jacobin]

65. Yeah. Hollering is soooo much worse than voting for illegal war

:eyes:


Yeah. He got carried away. So fricking what? If the media brutalized Smirky for his idiotic sociopathic smirking and giggling over signing death warrants and being unable to pronounce a word over two syllables, Murkins would be upset with Bush*, too.

Why fall into the media trap and chew up and swallow what they serve as "news"?

[WilliamPitt]

68. "Why fall into the media trap..."

Because that's where 90% of the voters are right now. Gotta play the ball where it lies, and Dean put it into the lumber yard last night. Res ipsa loquitor.

[Jacobin]

80. I would dispute your arithmetic.

"90% of the voters" will not vote for Bush.

Part of Dean's charm for luggards such as I am, rural folk, as it were, have no problem with someone going over the top from time to time.....even a presidential candidate.

Maybe this will offend in the easily offended. So be it. Don't we need rural votes and the support of the not-so-sophisticated?

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

:-)

[KittyWampus]

103. So Howard Dean Is The "Jerry Springer" Candidate?

:think:

[Jacobin]

109. There's a comparison I wouldn't have made before last night

or this morning. Jerry Springer strikes me as completely staged and very manipulative. I find Dean to be the antithesis of that.

Jeeze, could Limbaugh be right? Are we all so thin skinned? Are we populists so unwelcome in the ethereal realm of "liberal" democrats? Is a raw human emotion in a time of stress simply unthinkable in a human being?

How unforgiving we have become.

[KittyWampus]

122. I Apologise For Not Being Clear

and expressing myself so very poorly.

It is the over-the-top nature of the Reactions that led to my comment.

[Tatiana]

66. This is what pisses me off.

Was gonna respond to your response in another thread about this aspect of the whole speech thing. The story out of Iowa should be all about Comeback Kid Kerry and Darkhorse Edwards. But instead, everyone's pointing (and laughing their asses off) at Dean.

They're saying this proves once and for all that he's crazy... a loose cannon. Voters are asking themselves if they want that man who yowled/yelped with his finger on the button.

And beyond that, Dean is setting himself up for failure by proclaiming victory in the states of his opponents. He isn't going to win Oklahoma or Arizona or North Carolina. He may squeak out a victory in South Carolina, but with Clark and Edwards campaigning strong there, I seriously doubt it. And Massachusetts??? With Kerry's big surge? He wasn't being honest with his supporters. This is going to be a long race to the finish.

The whole thing was unsettling, unprofessional, and uncharacteristic of a future President. Dean needs to get it into gear.

[incapsulated]

69. I know it's mostly fatigue

on my part, but the more I watch and read about this, the more funny it gets. Every time someone writes "YEEEEEAAAGGH!" I start cracking up.

The best way for Dean to have delt with this would be to wave it off as a joke, for laughs. Instead of saying "ok, I'm going to be serious now, like I was before..." Why does that campaign feel the need to announce their strategy? Doesn't that kinda miss the point?

[Walt Starr]

70. I saw the speech. It was great

Fired me up for more.

BTW, I don't accept your apology.

NBD '04

[molly]

75. That's OK Walt. People need leaders - not demogeauges

:nopity:

[Walt Starr]

77. Leaders like Dean

not demagogues like Kerry.

[molly]

78. Sorry that you won't be voting for a real hero

[Walt Starr]

81. I see only one REAL hero in the pack

and it sure as hell ain't Kerry.

[ulysses]

73. "the only thing worse than being talked about

is not being talked about." Oscar Wilde

there isn't a *single* thing he could have done that would have been "right" to people who don't support the man. Sure, he could have gone meekly out and done the usual thing...and then it would be all about the rest of them today.

Honestly? It really doesn't worry me.

[RoeBear]

74. Is this the kind of person we want...

...with their finger on the nuclear button!?! :smoke:


Somebody in one of these threads must have said this right? :D

[KoKo]

123. Yes.......the danger of the "nuclear button" has been much on the minds of

the anti-Deaners. Like Dean would be more dangerous than the Chimp....?

LOL's :D.....The Nuke button......PNAC's finger is on it already. You'll have to pry their cold, dead fingers off the thing, no matter who is the next Resident!

[leftwingconspiracy]

76. Hi

I'm a Dean supporter and have been kind of frustated with how bad he's being treated sometimes but this time I he may deserve some criticism because he did maybe go to far last night. My husband and I are big fans and think he's great but thought he seemed kind of strange last night. but we didn't think it was a big deal. BUt so many people at work today mentioned it maybe it was a big deal.

[Jacobin]

84. Hi and a BIG welcome to DU

:hi:

:hi:

(especially a Dean supporter :loveya:)

[beaconess]

88. Thanks!

[xultar]

82. I agree with you, That is why I told the Dean supporters to get out there

and frame the message. I was concerned about the newbies as well and how it would play. That is why the Dean supporters need to consider this an opportunity. They do have a tough road to go.

[Julien Sorel]

89. Yep

The point isn't what he was doing. The point is how it played in Peoria, and it was damaging. Face it: People heard that and were flipped out by it without having to absorb the media spin. Dean is going to be dealing with that for the next several days going into New Hampshire, and it is going to take him off message.

And in a way, his little yowl is emblematic of his entire campaign: focus on his supporters, deal with the mainstream as if it were an afterthought, and when your behavior outrages or offends the mainstream, go into damage control. Deny. Lie. Attack your opponents for being 'Bush-lite' or 'Republicans.' Blame the media, or concoct other fanciful conspiracy theories. Dean should have had this campaign locked down two months ago, but he's so astonishingly inept at doing anything but attacking everyone around him and putting on a carnival sideshow for his followers ("the paperwork for our donations was taller than I am!!!!!! Wow!!!") that he has been utterly unable to reach beyond about 20% of the Democratic voters. He's a little man running a little campaign, focused on a little group of people. But this is the guy who is supposed to lead this party in an election that will demand large numbers of mainstream voters take him seriously? No wonder the Republicans can hardly wait. If Dean somehow gets the nomination, there will be quite a few "Yeeeeeeeeowls" across the country, but the people doing the yowling will be smart enough to do it away from the cameras.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

121. BB!

Glad to see you around. :-)

DTH

[newsguyatl]

90. and i know you're just heartbroken over it all.

so he wrote this book.

[WilliamPitt]

92. Questioning my motives

does not disprove my premise. As a matter of fact, foisting innuendo about my motives instead of addressing my premise pretty much means you are not capable of disproving my premise. No points for you this round. Bob, can we have the next contestant?

[Walt Starr]

93. I may have to write a book

if the likes of Ann Coulter can be a best selling author, hell, I outta wow 'em.

[WilliamPitt]

96. Good idea

Write a book about your process of deciding on a candidate. A 2,000 page tome will be good reading for me this summer.

:)

Teasing, of course.

[Walt Starr]

106. Nah, I have a better idea

A book about internet punditry. That would still weigh in at about 2000 pages, but exposing the self righteous sophistry of the hundreds upon hundreds of political insider wannabes would certainly be fun.

[WilliamPitt]

107. Go right ahead

I'll be right here. Waiting.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

143. Um...

"Do not take your disagreements off the message board and into the "real world," and do not do anything to try to harm or harass any member of this message board in the "real world.""

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[Walt Starr]

154. I really don't understand what's up, Will

I really see some potential for my idea for a book. I've been inspired and will definitely work on it. I've been posting on political message boards now for more than a decade and have a lot of experience in this area.

What's the old adage? Write about what you know. I've seen more internet punditry before 2000 than I have after. I was watching FR long before the 2000 campaign.

This is an area that is absolutely ripe for the picking! My gosh, Howlin over at FR would be worth six chapters at least!

It'll be pretty comedic, too!

[Walt Starr]

155. Just adding that the scope has been altered a bit

I've widened the scope of this project to be about internet communities. The Internet pundit will still be examined, but on a smaller scale. Internet pundits by themselves are not really worthy of an entire book. I really don't even think a chapter should be devoted to the persona, but certainly a paragrph or two should be included ina book devoted to the subject on internet communities.

Again, thaks for the inspiration, Will. We'll see where this goes.

Sorry to hijack your thread...

[quaker bill]

91. Sad isn't it.

At one time strong rhetoric was the cornerstone of politics. (See FDR or Harry Truman for reference)

Now in the age of image managed and well coifed politicians, a well written speech delivered with some emotional content is seen as "outside the envelope".

It is a sad comment on the decline of our democracy.

If the greatest sedition is silence, then what you term as a well written speech delivered with emotional content and intended to inspire participation in our democratic political process, would seem to merit your praise rather than your criticism.

[WilliamPitt]

95. Again, the point is missed.

My comments have zero, zip, zilch to do with the substance of the speech. In fact, I praised it. My comments are about how it has been played in the media, and that perhaps a slightly lower key would have saved some trouble.

People see (or read) what they want, though. If I didn't know it before, this thread reinforced the lesson in spades.

[quaker bill]

127. No, your point is taken and summarily dismissed.

I agree that the media has made much ado over this. That in and of itself is the tragedy when you look at the larger picture.

The phenomenon drives the dialog toward the bland and parsed. It simply robs political discourse of it's soul.

An emasculated political dialog is the equivalent of silence.

Ever watched "question time" on CSPAN or BBC? While stated in the Queen's English, the questions carry emotional content and are far more challenging than anything Dean or any other in this crop candidates has come up with.

Strong rhetoric is the cornerstone of their Democracy. I would prefer it to be ours again as well.

I had no problem with the speech, but I am concerned about the role this sort of criticism has on our political discourse.

[CWebster]

167. isn't that the truth

stated in such a quiet unassuming way.

[Le Taz Hot]

94. Yeah, we needed ANOTHER

"Howard Dean's speech" thread. 478 weren't quite enough. :eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

98. Thanks for kicking this one, though

:eyes: right back at'cha.

[arcos]

125. this thread should have been locked like the other dupes...

I don't know why was it so hard to post this reply in another thread instead of starting another one.

Yes, I kicked it, I don't care. It shouldn't be here anyway.

[Jerseycoa]

150. You know, I bet

most of these Dean speech threads have been started by Dean supporters. Maybe if y'all'd just drop the damn thing it would help.

[TheDonkey]

100. Dean made a tragic mistake, but Kerry sadly has also messed up BIG before

with that puff the magic dragon stunt.


But Dean is definetly imploding and that "rally" was sad and scary at the same time.

[Ramsey]

101. Aaaarrrrghhhhh!!!!

OK, that's it, that is absolutely all I can take.

I am taking a break from this freaking forum!

[molly]

111. I know you and respect you

however, you must know a different character than the one we saw on national TV. I must admit that I have not been a HD fan since he began his attacks on the other candidates. He was like a bully on a playground. He demeaned everyone that he considered a threat and belittled those too new to fight back. Did Joe Trippi make him do it or just merely enable him? None of our candidates is perfect - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm sorry to say that HD did this to himself. He let his arrogance and rage rule his logic.

[fishnfla]

108. The "howler dean" name comes next, I'm sure

I mean, really.

[windansea]

113. Dean is toast....he won't win a primary

not a single one....I feel sorry for all the people who worked so hard for him...unfair as it might be...when you are mocked nationally it's over

[KoKo]

120. Ah....the Dean workers I'm sure love to hear your condolences, but to be

"Mocked" is not the end of the world when one is an "underling." It's only serious when one has enormous power like THE CHIMP!

So, I imagine you are young and have much to learn about these things, so I will let your comment pass. Let's wait to see which side the "toast" is buttered on before we discard it. After all....you didn't say "Burnt Toast" but then.....that would be a distinction.....and too much to deal with.....:-)'s

[kaitykaity]

117. I love what Randi Rhodes did with this.

It makes me wonder what kind of a country we live in, where
everybody is obsessing about this speech, when the liar in
chief is getting ready to come on TV and spout more lies,
and this is the most important issue of the day.

What a fucking mess.

You want to blame Howard, go right ahead. I think this
is a symptom of a larger malaise.

[Mz Pip]

124. Sorry, I have to disagree

about it being an excellent speech. Basically, Dean shrieked a geography lesson. It was a "How many states can you name at the top of your lungs?" speech.

Nothing excellent about that. But you are right about one thing. It may have played well to his base of hard core supporters but it looked out of control to all to many people who we will need to beat Bush in November.

MzPip
:dem:

[WilliamPitt]

126. There was more to it than that

The whole text is quite good, imo.

[Mz Pip]

135. It may very well

"read" in a more favorable light than the way it was delivered. But what people see is much more powerful than what people read.

As a friend of mine said: "I think the Minnesota Vikings are looking for a coach."

MzPip
:dem:

[genius]

128. Dean never has been able to control his mouth

One night on Charlie Rose some commentators were discussing his "mad mouth disease." I would like to have a nominee people who knew how to speak.

[bitchkitty]

129. I give up.

I give up. There's no point in trying to stand for anything, if we have to be careful of how the corporate media will spin it.
And Will, in spite of what you may think, America is not fascinated by Bill Clinton's genitals. I do not give a flying fuck about Bill Clinton's dick or where he chooses to put it.

[Catherine Vincent]

130. I kinda liked that Yowl though. I really digged that.

[wyldwolf]

131. Here is a world premier! Busta Rhymes featuring Howard Dean!

http://www.liberalresurgent.com/whoohadean.mp3

[Catherine Vincent]

140. I just listened.

Thanks for the laugh!

YYYYYYYeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

[HuckleB]

133. I think you're overplaying it by, well, a long, long way.

As of now, it's a non-entity. SOTU just dumped it. And it wasn't close to the entity you played it out to be. The only folks that paid any attention are the hardcore, and they aren't going to change based on that.

[Exgeneral]

134. In all fairness

and without reading 162 replies, it seems pretty darn orchestrated that everywhere you turned this morning there was that clip. EVERYWHERE.

Saturation job of the worst ilk.

[Sly Kal]

137. Ok

:puffpiece:

[Walt Starr]

139. Ayup

:puffpiece:

[shance]

138. Overblown and blaming the messanger and victim yet again

So, we know you are a Kerry supporter, so why continue bashing Howard Dean?

That disappoints me when I come to DU for some quality discussion. Oh well, silly me.

Ive said it before, but unfortunately some of you guys seem to care less about the damage you are doing to the Democratic party.

Keep pumping up that Republican party****Knock yourself out.

[9119495]

142. Will, How does Kerry win the Electoral vote?

[HuckleB]

144. Speaking of... just got back from the neighbor's gathering...

I just got back from a chat next door with about a dozen neighbors, including the lone Limbaugh dope, who was out to get his digs in on SOTU night. Of course, he brought up the Dean speech. Interestingly, no one else understand the hype about it. And, excepting myself, there are no other Dean supporters in that crowd, which included three Republicans (in addition to Limbo's pal) and a Kerry supporter, with the rest all in the Clark camp. They all looked at it as the press hyping nothing in something. And I didn't say a word on the subject.

[WilliamPitt]

146. That's refreshing

[dusty64]

145. Its disgusting and amazing

the play this speech has received while outrageous and murderous crimes and lies by rethugs are ignored daily. I am beyond loathing the media and their whores and the people who buy into the crap.

[beaconess]

147. Of course, this could be avoided had Dean not given them the ammo

It's more than a tad disingenous to play for the cameras and then whine about being on television.

[beaconess]

148. Did anyone else notice that Bush's rattling off a list of nations who

supported us on Iraq was eerily reminiscent of Dean's recitation of states?

[pasadenaboy]

151. Your crocodile tears about Dean are pathetic and disengenous.

[Paragon]

152. With all due respect...

...anybody who buys into the "Dean is Scary" meme is full of shit.

Kerry is Boring and Has a Crooked Face -- there I just started a new one. :eyes:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

157. to make Will's point..... I submit this

[diamondsoul]

165. G-Dammit!

It's official, if I never hated the press before I most definitely DO now!

If Spite were a criteria for choosing my candidates, Dean would be in second place right now. Since it isn't I believe I'll place him 3rd for the moment, but then again if the stupid shit keeps being dumped on his head, he may overtake Kerry yet.

Look here, folks, I dislike the fact that I percieve Dean as less than straightforward, that's a done deal- But G-Dammit if it's wrong for Dean then it's just as wrong from the feckin' media whores! Now I'm pissed! That's TWICE I've gotten seriously pissed in defense of Howard Dean in as many weeks. This crap is starting to completely freak me out!

*I'm done flipping now, back to your regularly scheduled smash Dean discussion.:puke:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

169. Hey. Howard gave them a tiny opening

and they cracked it open and ran with it. It's part of his problem. He knows no restraint, and as right as that may be in real life- even for governors- it does not translate well into the image of "President".
The intangible is made real.

[diamondsoul]

177. They "ran with it"

as dishonestly as they've run with anything else.

I didn't see the speech Monday or even yesterday. I finally watched a video clip today. He didn't look anywhere near as lunatic as he sounded. The pic posted from the front page of the paper just solidified my utter disgust. I know that expression- that's the expression of someone fighting to overcome a momentary weakness in their own body. In Dean's case his voice was trying to give out and he was fighting it. He took a chance on seriously hurting himself to pump up his supporters, and by damn I respect him for that.

The rest is bullshit spin to make him look bad and, man, I see no need for that. Hit him on the issues, hit him on inconsistencies, fine, have at it. Don't hit him because he's doing everything he can to keep his supporters where they are and has a rough night.

It's as assinine as the pie chart on the radio bash.

[Lexingtonian]

159. the Letterman video of this thing was devastating

It showed Dean's head exploding (with a balloon pop) at the end of his primal/bloviating, bellowing. Cruelest video I've seen in a long time- it just had masterful comic timing to the head exploding part. Independent of whether you have Dean sympathy or not, it was surely politically unintentional but just 'got' Dean so well and hard that it's going to be hard to recover from. It was really like that little boy who walks up to his daddie smiling and happy- and then kicks him devastatingly in the nads without warning, because it was funny when the other little boys were trying to do it to each other at recess that day.

[windansea]

161. got a link?

missed it

[bloom]

182. Not a good image to see....

Dean's head exploding. I think anyone would have to admit that.



And I also agree with the people saying that there is lot to be angry about and it does not make sense to pretend otherwise.

[TopesJunkie]

189. Baloney! --

The whole thing has been so overplayed that people are numb to it. It's meaningless now. It has no power. In the end, it has left Dean in a far better position to take a big win in New Hampshire.

[Monument]

160. Poof: Dean's support from women goes up in smoke

the speech was a disaster. I'll say it again, that speech was a disaster.

[Rich Hunt]

176. speak for yourself

I guess women are that dumb, eh?

[GumboYaYa]

162. All I can say is, yes, you are correct.

I've been a longtime Dean supporter. Dean gave me an opportunity to do something positive to take back our country rather than just bitching about Bush on Internet message boards. I don't regret my commitment to the campaign and will most likely keep working on it for the time being.

Nevertheless, I do recognize that there is absolutely no way that Dean can defeat Bush given Dean's image in the press. Much of this image has been woven out of lies, half-truths and innuendo. Dean knows the way he is being portrayed in the corporate media and fed right into it Monday night. He personally has now given the right-wing all the ammunition they need to Gore him through 2004. I'm not willing to bet my children's future on Dean being able to deliver his message through the cacophony of howling conservative pundits.

I hope Dean stays in the race and uses his war chest to hammer Bush as longs as he can. This will help draw fire off the other candidates and give the Dems a platform to continually hammer Bush.

I hope other Dean supporters do not give up the fight, but transfer their energy to the ultimate winner. Dean has done the country a great service in igniting a grass roots force. We need to use the power of the Dean movement to win in 2004.

[evil_orange_cat]

164. I don't wish to offend Dean supporters... but that was sad...

I was disappointed in Dean. Dean was my number one candidate and that speech after his Iowa loss was just abysmal. Dean (and maybe Clark) had the anti-war message that resonated with me. He spoke directly to my heart when he criticized Bush. But in politics, the message isn't the only thing. I have to look at how the candidate presents himself, his charisma, his personability, his ability to stand in front of crowds and inspire; and frankly, Dean isn't the right man for the job.

[CWebster]

166. "The point is that Howard Dean was a national punchline today.

And Kerry will be tomorrow....though without as much derision from the establishment party because Kerry doesn't represent a threat to the status quo. Kerry, like Clinton, is driven by ego--he is enamored with the image which he believes befits him, but he is not driven by the issues, he tests them to decide where he stands.

See what the media does to Kerry and then come back and build a case about Kerry being damaged goods. After all, it isn't like they are ever gonna "hunt" for Bush.

[patricia92243]

170. If Bush had made the exact, same speech it would be o.k. Pubs "whitewash"

[WilliamPitt]

171. ...and that's a whole separate problem

[Rich Hunt]

172. hey, man

Leave Peoria out of this!

;)

[redqueen]

173. I agree the media will not stop with this

But I doubt it will matter much. ALL of our candidates will have some 'oopsie' moment that the media can dig up and hammer away on.

This is stupid. If we wait for a candidate that the media won't tar and feather we'll be waiting forever.

Some may think Dean is more likely to give more ammo to the media than others, but that's a subjective opinion. Everyone has to weigh the canddiates' positives and negatives independently.

I sincerely hope this 'issue' isn't going to be beaten to death all week here. I expect it from the media, but come on!

:eyes:

(Exception - the Lounge - I think we all need MUCH more comic relief, and THAT'S the place for discussing 'the speech', not here.)

[felix19]

178. A nearly perfect dissection of Media Misbehavior

by the former editor of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/01/21/iowa_campbell.html

Innocent in Iowa
by Cole C. Campbell


Who created the frontrunner dethroned in Iowa for a new front runner? It was the campaign press. But on the morning after, the campaign press pretends it does not exist. Cole Campbell, former editor of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, comments.

Given the political worldview defined by this kind of pressthink, several reflexes kick in and take over coverage this time of year. Two of the most obvious leap out in the Iowa caucus coverage.

1. Candidates are slotted into pre-scripted categorical roles: These are the BIG WINNER, the BIG LOSER, the SURPRISINGLY STRONG FINISHER and DEAD MEAT. The candidates’ objective in any early test is claiming not delegates to the nominating convention but the (temporarily) coveted crown of FRONT-RUNNER. Hence Calvin Woodward writes in his Associated Press account:

With a decisive victory in Iowa, John Kerry reclaimed the high expectations that ushered in his presidential candidacy, staggered Howard Dean and moved on to New Hampshire as the newly minted front-runner.
Kerry, a four-term Massachusetts senator and decorated Vietnam War veteran, and North Carolina Sen. John Edwards buried Dean in third place Monday night in the Iowa presidential caucuses … For Gephardt, it appeared the battles were over..


2. In the early primary season, the point is not winning or losing as defined by party nominating rules, but meeting, exceeding or blowing expectations. Bryan Keefer lays it out in the Columbia School of Journalism’s new Campaign Desk blog that Iowa and New Hampshire “are the playing field on which reporters set the bar for the expected performances of the candidates. Exceed these expectations – as John Kerry and John Edwards did in Iowa – and the press is positive; fail to meet them, and the press warms up the funeral dirge for your chances, as Howard Dean is finding discovering.”

These two elements of pressthink are so obvious, routine, ritualized and repeated year in and year out it almost seems trite – it is trite – to trot them out again. But it is important to connect them to the third axiom of the press in the early primary season. Political candidates must fill certain roles for campaign narratives to work. Political candidates must be sorted, and expectations are a great device for sorting. Who better to assign roles and evaluate expectations than the uninvolved, politically innocent press?

3. The press is the central player in politics to political insiders – not the candidates, not the voters – and insiders acknowledge it even while maintaining as orthodoxy that the press is innocent of influence.

With a good deal more at the link.

The media creation/destruction cycle (for Democrats and "opponents" only) goes on independently of whatever really happens. Thus, had Dr. Dean been all solemn and rational addressing his troops after the Iowa results, the script would have ruled anyway. It doesn't much matter what any of the candidates do or don't do. As long as they have that Devil D after their name they will be subjected to constant Big Media harrassment and eventual dismissal.

Surely Will Pitt and Scott Ritter -- two "opponents" who have been pretty well vindicated by events -- have been dismissed by the very media that once provided a platform. It doesn't matter what you do. What matters is where you fall on the story arc.

[PATRICK]

180. Yes, Calvin Woodward

that was the schmoe's name. If isn't on the Rove payroll he is wasting his time twisting things perfectly and strategically against the Democratic candidates. I mean you have to look at the whole structure, as innocuously traditional as it first seems.

Using Iowa to trash Clark? Ignoring Edwards? Doesn't make sense unless you start an article like that with an agenda as too often seems the case with some news service reporters. And yet the papers, who supposedly have people who can type and watch TV too, ran with this feature masterpiece.

Why? Did they think writing the story themselves might infringe on the right of the over-Press?

[PATRICK]

179. A test of Teflon if

there ever was one. Yes the SOTU and timing rushed the 24/7 attack dogs past it but I have to admit, after being really impressed with Dean and his governorship credentials, it really hit hard- and NOT like Muskie crying in New Hampshire which was part set up, part cruel twist of nature(snow on face), and part media circus.

The timing could not have been worse. Hell, nothing could have been worse. LBJ swinging his beagle by its ears, Carter dueling withe rabbit, Dukakis riding the tank were cheap shots by comparison. Visceral dismay in all cases, even if nothing else about the candidates had really changed.

Better have Teflon steel a foot thick and grease it liberally- but not too liberally.

I hate to watch skating championships where it is too often determined by who falls the most. I cringe, but I can't put them back on their feet. With a close contest like this promises to be I hope it is less to be decided by the negatives, but things have to give somewhere.

[LoneStarLiberal]

181. Will's On To Something That I Think Is Being Misunderstood

The Dean speech in Iowa didn't horrify me or make me fear for the future of the party if Dr. Dean wins the nomination; the only feeling I had about it was that the barbaric yowlp at the end was cheesy.

To the uncommitted Democrats out there (for the primaries) and the uncommitted voters in general (for the general election) this will be yet one more stumbling block for them to get over when it comes to taking a look at the substance of Dr. Dean.

I've seen the repeated admonishment that "if Bush did this then it would be spun to be heroic or OK." And...so what? "If Bush did this" "if Bush did that." I personally don't give a crap about what George Bush can get away with that our candidates cannot. Know why? As Will wrote earlier on this thread, it's a different issue. It's the difference between what he does that we perceive to be unfair and the substance of what he does. We need to focus on the substance, not the perceived difference. Focusing on the perceived difference is playing right into Republican hands.

The idea that if we all simply moan about how unfair the blatant double-standards are for President Bush versus any of the Democratic candidates or for conservatives versus liberals that said moaning will make a difference. It won't. The only thing that will result if that is the only mass action we take against this odious behavior is that the Republicans will laugh at us all the way to another four years of George Bush and complete dominance of the Senate and even greater dominance of the House. Then we're all screwed regardless of who we supported.

Dr. Dean's speech like every other public appearance in an election year by a candidate, regardless of who it was intended for or what he intended to portray, is public domain. That the media will try to pick it apart should be accepted and expected from the very first word which is why there has to be the consideration of ramification along with the fundamental desire and need for spontaneity. Failure to understand this and every other speech as public domain misses the most crucial point of the setback that this speech has dealt Dr. Dean: Image matters. It matters now, it will matter down the road.

I know a lot of people will disagree with my previous statement, but I don't write the rules for political campaigns. Image does matter. It matters a whole lot. If you want to run a campaign and a candidate that are going to change that then you had best abide by those rules until you actually win something. Otherwise you'll just be another tombstone of well-meaning intentions in the political campaign graveyard. You have to win before you can start changing things. Simply assuming you can start changing things before you have at least a party-wide mandate is one of several key factors that

Dr. Dean is well positioned to bounce back from this, but there needs to be a understanding of the problems he and his campaign face when it comes to other Democrats and undecided voters before this bounce can take place. Dr. Dean's got one of the best messages on health care and the experience to really drive this issue home against George Bush; in addition he's got the passion, charisma, and intelligence to put it together on all the remaining big issues. But uncommitted voters simply aren't going to see those things if Dr. Dean and his campaign don't sit down and accept come cold facts about the role of image in American electoral politics.

I think he'll put it together and remain a strong #1 or #2 through the remaining primaries.

[killbotfactory]

187. I don't care anymore. You win.

If this takes him down, this country is fucked. Politics is all image and the media has lobotomized the political process. They will have taken my hope for a better country and one who answers to the people, rather than the corporations, and destroyed one of the most impressive grassroots movements ever seen, along with a damn good candidate who is sincere in wanting positive change in the country.