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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-21-05 08:14 PM
Original message
Why is Deepa Fernandes leaving FSRN?
Someone PLEASE tell me this is not a re-run of '99.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am DEAD SERIOUS
And I will kick this over and over until I get the answer.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Don't know what happened in '99.
Sadly, most DUers probably don't listen to the excellent FSRN.

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. They Should!
And thanks for kicking :)

www.fsrn.org

VERY SIMPLE
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I agree that FSRN is excellent
but what happened in '99?
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I don't want this thread to turn into a history lesson, but here's some bg
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Looking over those, a question comes to mind...
...is this related in any way to what some refer to as the "left gatekeepers"?

I know that those who propose this scenario are a little fringe, but they have some evidence to support their claims.

Here are some resources, not all of which I agree with:

http://www.questionsquestions.net/gatekeepers.html
http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/chart.htm
http://www.oilempire.us/gatekeepers.html

Just tossing this out there for discussion - I'm not saying it's what's going on, but I'm open to considering it.

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm not mad at you..but that stuff is what is known in polite circles as
BULLSHIT
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well, no offense felt, as I said it was just for discussion.
I do think that the chart is interesting. Can you explain why this is bullshit? I'm not defending the idea, just curious to know why you disagree with it. Is it because Pacifica is included in the "gatekeepers"?

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. To be perfectly honest, reason #1 is my visceral reaction
but reason #2 is the fact that they are taking isolated statements out of context.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What about the funding chart? Any objections to it?
And what statements are out of context? Again, I'm not arguing, just curious.

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. No objections to the chart; they may really have something there
(actually, the fact that FAIR is financed by evil people is really not surprising--it's the kind of 'even-handed' watchdog group, established in media circles you can fund to look balanced, like the brookings institution or the Kerry campaign; not that I think those are like each other in many other respects)

As for my other concerns:

First of all, prima facie this appears to be a group of fanatics (not fanatical for being left or cynical but for being tightly tied to one voice) following Mike Ruppert--who, by the way, is awesome. Just look at their lead topics and their language--Peak Oil, Dick Cheney's responsibility for 9/11, stolen elections, WWIV. Being stuck in a single set of ideas can be dangerous. I may well be wrong in this assessment, but it bothers me.

Second, they reference single articles by people as evidence--admittedly, it would be a good idea with some precedent to establish a front for a specific sniping purpose, but presumably the funding flows at least started before 9/11? Of course, they may have been planning long in advance, but still. It's not even clear to me that independent reporting on this subject would weaken the administration--it might just make us look 'kookier' if we were right. And the slow progress on the 9/11 issue is, I think, based primarily on the secrecy of the administration. Whether that is intimately interconnected with media complicity and would collapse or falter without it, I don't know.

Third, I am not really convinced at all, by Ruppert or anyone else, that there is a powerful case making it seem likely that the government was responsible for 9/11. I think there is a good enough argument that resources should be directed toward it, but the assumption that it is ironclad doesn't hold water with me.

Fourth, despite the fact that Ruppert is awesome, I'm not QUITE sure I trust him. This is for a number of reasons, and my mistrust of him is probably mostly irrelevant, but see Counterpunch. Of course, Counterpunch is on trial here so maybe that would be unfair.

Fifth, even if all of these theories concerning 9/11 and JFK are true (which is quite possible, I would say probable without a pause), you cannot fault intellectuals like Chomsky for not spending inordinate amounts of time, or even really any given their jadedness, on such theories when social analysis is their purview. In fact, I really couldn't blame anyone, even a professional journalist, for not being immediately turned off by THE ADMINISTRATION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11, especially on websites that look very unprofessional. I know journalists are supposed to see past things like that, but hey, we're all human.

Sixth, Bensky is quite right to say that all of these people don't really KNOW each other.

Seventh, with regard primarily to later funding, but also to earlier funding, the funding may be a result, rather than a cause, of apathy with regard to these theories.

Eighth, Even if Katrina van den Heuvel and Alexander Cockburn are dark, twisted monsters who do snipe-work for the establishment, if it is so well hidden does that not acquit Eric Alterman and Greg Moses?

Quoting Chomsky, they speak of the danger of constricting debate to a small sector and creating lively debate within it. What better way to do that than to carry it out WITHIN PROGRESSIVE CIRCLES, particularly when speaking about credibility? I'm not saying that's what's going on, simply that the beliebability of a one-sided evil agenda is balanced by the believability of the other.

Finally, look at this
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/index.shtml
Rampant commercialism? I think so.


Regarding quotations:

http://www.oilempire.us/gatekeepers.html#palast
I think you'll find that the idea that McKinney suggested there WAS foreknowledge, particularly when she was in the position to advocate an investigation, fits better with Palast's account than with oilempire.us's. Besides, Palast is talking about media irresponsibility, meaning they are supposed to take VERY LITERALLY what people say, in the interests of being objective. As for the deliberate fabrication of a quote, there are two ways of interpreting that idea. One is oilempire's, which is that there was the idea that a quote existed, the content of which is made up. The other is the existence of a quote, the existence of which is made up. To my thinking, that is the more direct track of thinking. Anyone familiar with Palast's use of quotation marks will know that he is by no means necessarily referencing a reference by NPR to the existence of a 'quote', meaning that NPR said the word 'quote'. As for the appearance that the whole discussion of whether what McKinney said was equivalent to an indictment or a direct intimation is nitpicky, I have two responses. First, nitpicky is what media critics often are. Second, McKinney's position is that of, I think, many journalists and progressives--heavy suspicion, but not an irresponsible jump to conclusions. I do not suggest that FTW or oilempire have made such a jump; they have, after all, put in more time on the subject of 9/11 than we have. But it is possible.


Also, what is wrong with Bill Moyers? I see no lines leading funding IN. What's wrong with the Carnegie Foundation? Besides, the fact that dirty money flows into an entire FOUNDATION should surprise no one.

I choose oilempire because it seems to me the most responsible of the three links you gave me.

I'm getting really tired so I'm stopping now, but I'll be back.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I think your post just blew my mind.
Very good stuff, and I largely agree. I respect Ruppert for his exposing of CIA-crack connections in SoCal (where I now reside), but I'm not sure of his credibility or agenda. I don't distrust him, I'm just wary.

Palast is, IMIO, very credible (though some disagree strongly). The McKinney thing was a travesty. She was railroaded, and I am so damn happy she's back in office. She's a champ.

Not a thing wrong with Moyers, he ROCKS and speaks truth to power very well. I'll have to consider the other funding questions and get back to you.

Thanks for this thread, it's turning out to be quite an enjoyable exchange!

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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Regarding why Fernandes was fired, I think it may have to do with
the ridiculous and evil management (as distinct from the workers!) at WBAI. The shows are still good, but after winning the '99 battle I think some at Pacifica have a false sense of security. As for the accusations of 'left gatekeeper'-watchers, to my mind it bears all the markings of an angry lashing-out by researchers who have been ignored, whether in indignation (assuming their information is correct or worth looking into) or in craziness. I just want to throw in one thing about Chomsky, which is that he is quite right that there was very little change after the assassination of Kennedy(wanna know who REALLY created Saddam Hussein?!), and while it may have been an important PR event or coup by a different power group, Chomsky's underlying thesis is quite right. This is all not to mention the fact that the money is traced from foundations, who give to EVERYONE, not to corporations or to individual actors or organizations. How many times have you heard some random group go "we are supported by the Macarthur Foundation" or the "Rockefeller Foundation"? I'm not contending that what these people do may serve the interests of some power structure or other, but even if they do, it doesn't mean they are being forced to. Regarding 9/11 issues, I doubt the CIA would have been behind it, for several reasons. First, this pervasive complicity doesn't really work with what I have learned from the likes of Thomas Powers. Second, it is clear that there was an interest among the violent radical Islamist/pan-arabist community in attacking the WTC, as evidenced by the previous failed attempt. I don't see why persons interested in an anti-democrat coup resembling the Kennedy one (though they are by no means necessarily affiliated with each other if they exist) would perpetrate a Reichstag, whether successful or not (the very existence of terrorism often buttresses the power elites), during the Clinton administration. I know I'm rambling, but I'm kinda strapped for time and I want to get out my most important responses. I don't pretend to be a professional critic, but to be terribly honest, the people to whom I refer seem to have little more expertise in the area of media criticism. The one funding source I think might be extremely dangerous, ironically, is George Soros, who tends to take a more 'hand-on' approach to those whom he funds, in contrast with the (at least apparent) apathy of groups like the Ford Foundation. Soros, unlike many other groups (including Wal-Mart) seems to have far more strings attached. He has also been affiliated with the Carlisle group. As for CIA funds, who has any idea what kind of tangled web they weave? Would they really do anything so obvious? I honestly doubt it. As for the Pacifica allegations, I think that proves only that the grassroots must become stronger--so SUPPORT PACIFICA!! The Pacifica management is unquestionably evil, but that does not yet, in my estimation, impact the credibility of its broadcasters. I am still, however, unfathomably pissed at the departure of Deepa Fernandes and somebody had better give me an answer.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. Re-Kicking
Sorry--I know it's kind of petulant, but I am extremely frightened. The whole 'gatekeeper' thing is ridiculous by my analysis, but the fact that there is an evil management at Pacifica (as distinct from its programs) and at WBAI in particular is no secret at all. I think we should all get ready to write a major open letter/petition. Deepa has been an incredibly dedicated journalist, and if she is leaving for any reason other than her own free will, I am going to be among what I hope will be a very large group of very pissed people.
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kamqute Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-24-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Research People--can you find a way to contact Deepa?
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