I'm happy about Dean being chair, but let's not fool ourselves

[fujiyama]

into believing that just because he's chair, the party's fate will suddenly turn around.

Dean was the best out of a bunch of bad choices. I think he should be interesting though. He might inject some much need enthusiasm at the least.

Still, there is no indication that the chair can do all that much. I don't see how Dean can really turn the party's chances around in the south...Which is why I'm also not going to either blame him or give him too much credit for how Dems do in '06.

I also hope that Dean becoming Chair will finally end last year's primaries. A small number still seem extremely bitter about that.

[Borgnine]

1. It's going to be a lot of hard work.

Nobody is expecting things to turn around over night. But at this point, it means the bleeding will stop, which is what we desperately need. If anyone is going to help us in that spot for 2008 or even 2006, it's somebody with the passion of a Howard Dean.

[caledesi]

4. Borg? Is that a pic of you? Very nice! nt

[GRLMGC]

7. That's Howard Dean nt

[caledesi]

90. I feel like such an idiot, but I didn't have my glasses and could

not read that tiny print under the pic.

Howard! Wow, definitely cute.

[cry baby]

8. That looks like a young Howard Dean to me. n/t

[Adelante]

36. He was a cutie nt

[gardenista]

61. He had that "bad boy" thing goin' on. nt

[XemaSab]

84. Was a cutie?

Try "is"...

:-D

[Spirochete]

108. Looks like a Dean, anyway

either Howard or James. hehe

[fujiyama]

26. I hope you're right

I am pleased that Dean has been willing and able to pay attention to the grass roots.

I am also hopeful that his win will be a clear warning to the DLC. I will be amused to see what kind of crap they'll be saying in that DLC magazine and website (From, Reed, et al).

[shoopnyc123]

2. The chair is just a fundraiser...

...not policy person. I think he's got a handle on and backing for that.

Hes' essentially a centrist, unlike the media's creation of him. That will be a conflict, I'm sure. Otherwise, I think he'll develop a nice little operation in the south, where we need help.

[Adelante]

40. I think "just a fundraiser" overstates

But it is an executive position responsible for the nuts and bolts far more than party policy. He will have influence, certainly, but it's the job of the chair to carry out party policy, rather than make it. He will be answering to a lot of people who elected him and there is a wide variety of wants and needs that will have to be juggled along the way.

[lojasmo]

46. The DNC sets the entire party platform.

The DNC has a fundraising chair, and a treasurer. The DNC chair is responsible for setting the agenda, and for guiding the direction of the group.

[Toots]

55. He is the face of the party and will be on all talk shows

His is the voice I want to be heard. I am sick of the whiney Democrats that say "We believe that too" bullshit. If we are in opposition then by God let someone with a pair stand up and tell the world so. I doubt very seriously we will be seeing Dean in the Rose Garden with Bush* giving him a kiss or a pat on the back. He may not always be right in his beliefs but he is pretty much alone in his ability to stand up for his convictions. I can't think of a single other Democrat that will do so. They are all to worried about making a speaking gaff and not getting re-elected. Dean does not have that concern. I look forward to hearing what he has to say and the direction he wants to head the Party in.

[tearsofneptune]

78. hey! guess what!

I don't know how ANYBODY could miscontrue us as "in oppositon to god"

check out jesusisaliberal.org ...

I know that even though it's plain as day to me other's won't see it the same way. But we've gotta make SOME effort, SOME plan to split the evangelical right. The works of people like jimmy carter and other RNC dissient evangelicals is something I try to keep a close eye on-33 million Evangelicals. We've GOT to get those votes, regardless of if you view it as futile-have we even TRIED?

[DireStrike]

99. We don't have to court every type of person...

to get every person.

Those evangelicals are also men, women, mothers, fathers, working class, small business owners, etc, etc... we don't have to pretend to believe in their religion or even their values. We just have to show that we will stand up for them and that our interests are their interests.

[Pirate Smile]

121. Hopefully, there will be an outreach to evangelicals. If they are

truly Christian they won't like Shrub's budget plan cutting help for the poor all over the place. I agree there are ways to reach out to people - not everyone is a Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberson partisan Right Winger.

[Rowdyboy]

3. I agree and disagree

1. His selection will not miraculously turn things around, but it is a BEGINNING

2. Dean isn't the "best of a bunch of bad choices". Actually, I think he's an excellent choice. He has the fire and the passion that we so desperately need at this point. I didn't support him for president-I'm not a Deaniac either-but I respect his abilities and admire his passion. He'll do good.

3. His main impact will come as a ferocious party advocate. He's smart and quick on his feet and won't take crap from the MSM.

4. I pray you are right and that his selection will heal some of the wounds of Dean supporters who feel so totally betrayed.

[aquart]

5. From the endorsements he's getting

Many more than the Deaniacs feel betrayed. The comments make it damn clear that McAuliffe was above the local races. Local races are where the neocons first seized power.

[Rowdyboy]

16. Sorry, I don't quite catch your drift?

:shrug:

[aquart]

18. The money didn't trickle down.

[Rowdyboy]

25. Okaaaay....That clears that up....

"So long, and thanks for all the fish!"

[Clark2008]

6. I have a question about the betrayal.

How can Dean supporters feel betrayed when the people didn't vote for him?
Are they blaiming the voters?
We all know the media sucks to high heaven, but what betrayal? That the voters didn't want Dean?
They didn't want my guy, either, apparently (because the media sucks to high heaven), but I don't feel betrayed by the voters.
Sorry, I'm just confused about that.

The other points are valid and I get them.

[Larkspur]

11. The malicious tricks that kerry, gephardt, clark and clinton aides

did to Dean before the Iowa Caucuses is the reason why this Dean supporter and others will not forgive kerry, gephardt, clark, and clinton and their supporters, who took sadistic delight in Dean's downfall.

I'm half Irish and my Irish ancestors say, "Don't get mad, get even!" That's my philosophy right now.

[gardenista]

15. I'm afraid that you'll be disappointed if you think Dean will

"get even" with those who done him wrong, or not, during the primaries.

Dean will be a wonderful DNC chair, and I can't wait to see what he does with the position, and how it changes the party. But those who expect him to exact revenge are living in the past. Dean knows it's all politics. That's why he's the best man for the job.

But the truth is, he (and Trippi, of course) played his own role in this downfall during the primaries. It wasn't "the scream". It was not only the Gephart dirty tricks, but also bad television ads; poorly trained (i.e., not understanding caucus rules), and overly enthusiastic orange hats pissing people off in Iowa; and any number of other factors that contributed to Dean's downfall.

Dean will surprise everyone, I think. Even his long-term supporters. He will also be a great DNC chairman. I cannot wait to make my first DNC donation under his leadership. I even think he oughta bring back the bat!

[Negatron]

29. I disagree. It WAS "the scream."

Let's face it. The media was looking for something, anything. Sadly, Dean inadvertantly gave it to them by getting genuinely excited about his vision for America. That scream sound-bite has been played and re-played, and if you think we've seen the last of it, think again. The media used "the scream" as a golden opportunity to equate "Howard Dean" with "whack-job" in the minds of Repukes, indies, and swing voters, and they did so with success. Mission accomplished. The media mockery of Dean facilitated by "the scream" is an issue we're going to have to face.

[itzamirakul]

49. Sorry, but I think the "scream" has been

overdone by the Repubs and the MSM and now has become "golden" to show the passion of the REAL grassroots Democrats. I look forward to seeing, and hearing it again but I bet we won't. They know that they have overplayed it and it has lost its power to do them any good.

[gardenista]

59. Interesting interpretation. I look forward to seeing what happens.

Either way, I'm pretty confident that Dean will handle it well.

[gardenista]

58. You're right, we'll see alot more of the scream. And of course it had

an impact, but that was not the whole story. And if we insist upon blaming everything on the scream, we will not learn from our mistakes, and will be doomed to repeat them.

Dean's first major test will be in how he neutralizes the emergence of the scream video when the MSM makes their first of many attacks on him in his new office.

[NYCGirl]

62. Did you ever hear Dean's radio ad for Yahoo using the "scream"?

It was great and went a long way toward defusing it and showing what a great sense of humor the Dr. has.

http://www.ysearchblog.com/files/howard_dean_ylocal.mp3

[gardenista]

65. Thanks for the link!

I agree that he did a great job getting ahead of the scream story, and letting his wonderful personality shine through.

He also did a great job on Letterman.

[mandyky]

85. I have a sneaky feeling on Dean Day that Dean will

start listing some states with that mischievous look in his eye, and then say his lowkey "yahoo" as he has done since the Scream night in Iowa. He'll make a jackass out of the first MSM person who brings it up. That is so November 1st!

[ldf]

110. we shouldn't run from the scream..

we should OWN it!

it should be our battle cry. every time possible we should use it.

I WANT PASSION in my leading man!!! i think most americans do.

and everytime they try to use the scream against us, we should play the tape as it actually was. makes a BIG liar out of all of them.

let's kick ass everytime they spew a lie.

again, AMERICANS WANT THE TRUTH. once they start actually getting it we may be surprised at the response.

GO DEAN! (and i so seldom use caps.. :-) ) :loveya:

[Larkspur]

93. Success is the best revenge!

Guest you never heard that.

Dean's success at defeating the Hill Dems who tried to stop his DNC Chair bid is the first step towards complete revenge. Dean's complete revenge is reforming the Dem Party from the grassroots up and helping it win elections again using core Democratic principles as a basis for those victories and for sustaining those victories.

Dean won't go after Kerry, Gephardt, etc directly. It's not his style and would work against his larger vision. His mission is to reform and rejuvenate the Democratic Party from the grassroots up to be a winning Party by being a Party that champions average Americans and the US Constitution. When the Dem Party is reformed and wins elections, Dean wins, and Dean supporters have their revenge on the feudalistic Democrats, like Kerry, Gephardt, Carville, etc., whose myopic vision is killing the Democratic Party.

[Pirate Smile]

96. Are you just eaten up with revenge or what? Your enemy is other Dems

not Repubs? God, that is so friggin counterproductive and I say this as a person who gave money to and voted for Dean in the Caucuses.

Please, drop that shit and focus on the future. I'm half Irish too so I understand the long memory but geez, this ain't beanball were playin'.

[Larkspur]

98. I'm against Dems, like ex-senator Torricelli and his patrons, like Kerry

whose only interest is in their own promotions.

As you must know ex-senator Torricelli was booted out of the senate due to ethics violations but he became one of Kerry's national campaign fundraisers. Torricelli along with some others donated thousands of dollars to a 527 group that ran ads morphing Dean into Osama. These Dems will never get my support, because they don't deserve it. These are the Dems that Dean's new paradigm will drive to extinction. It will take some time, but it will make the Party better and stronger.

So if you support Dems like Torricelli, you and I will be enemies.

[Pirate Smile]

102. So did you vote for Kerry - your enemy?

[Larkspur]

106. After Dean dropped out of the Primary, I turned ABB

so yes, I voted for Kerry, but I proudly donated $0.00 and 0 minutes to Kerry's GE campaign, and considering that Kerry is sitting on $10 million left over from the GE campaign, I'm very glad that I did not donate to him. If I did, I would be demanding a refund.

[Pirate Smile]

107. Do you want Kerry to lose his Senate seat? Would you rather a repug,

even Corsi had it?

[Larkspur]

111. I'm a CT resident and am not eligible to vote for Kerry

and he's got $10 million left over from his Prez bid, so he doesn't need my money.

Did he ever pay back that $6.4 million loan on his mansion?

[Pirate Smile]

113. You didn't answer my question. What do you WANT to happen - Kerry lose

his Senate seat, even to Corsi?

[Larkspur]

117. Is he running for senator again?

Kerry deserves the swift boat idiot moving to Mass to challenge him. It might be an entertaining election, but unless Kerry implodes, the swift boat idiot will be swiftly floated out to sea.

The question you should be asking me is, "Will I vote for Lieberman, who is up for re-election in 2006?" Lieberman, not Kerry, is my senator.

[saracat]

123. Good then you can live with the fact that you did what you could to get

Bush elected. You claim to support Dean yet you couldn't even do what he asked you to . Dean stumped for Kerry and raised money for him. At the end of the day, especially in this last election, we were all Democrats.It is a pity you didn't see it that way. I, for one, am very sorry that Bush is squatting in the WH but I know I did whatever I could to prevent it.Your actions are nothing to be proud of!

[saracat]

122. Well then, you just might find yourself at odds with the good doctor

because these Dems are NOT his enemies.

[FrenchieCat]

28. I don't understand this "revenge" thing....

and I think that it is sad that any Dean supporter would still be talking this way.

Dean committed his share of "malicious sadistic delights". You don't think he helped bring Clark down by calling him a Republican (like 100 times) when he knew it was not true? Dean also kept saying that he was the only candidate against the war, when that certainly wasn't true, as there were 4 other candidates in the race that were as well....even made a commercial stating it. He sic'd his McPeak military guy on Clark.....this McPeak guy said things about Clark that also weren't true. Howard Dean was no angel in the primaries, and yet supporters of other candidates are not holding a grudge.

It appears that you want to claim revenge for what most call "politics". To say that you and others shall never forget is ironic...because you seem to have forgotten what Howard Dean did and said in the name of the same game.

I have only pity for those who are bitter in this way, but fail to see that there were culprits everywhere. Howard Dean ain't no innocent fellow. He knows his way around the block.

I just pray that revenge (a Bush trait) is not what he will bring with him to the DNC Chairmanship. It would only take away from him as a person, from any legacy that he wants to build, and it would more than anything take away from the party that he was elected to lead in a time when democracy hangs in the balance.

I want to think that Howard Dean is better than that. As for his supporters, I guess it takes all kinds.

[seaglass]

43. I was not a Dean supporter during the primaries but I do not

believe Dean would EVER seek any kind of revenge. It's only some of his most bitter and partisan supporters who let their emotions cloud their reason who hope for this.

What is amazing to me is how they profess an anti-war stance but have a war mentality - no diplomacy, always on attack, revenge is sweet.

They do Dean no favors.

I am hoping Dean does well and I do support him as DNC chair.

[Cha]

76. Yes, and it's not just Dean Supporters

who do their candidate "no favors". I've seen this with all of the major primary candidates.

Also there are perrennial Dean attackers who do nothing else..and that brings out the defense team..and I know this happens for the other candidates, too..Clark, Kerry, Edwards..not too many were defending lieberman, though.

[gardenista]

60. Well said. And I believe that the vast majority of Dean supporters

do *not* seek revenge.

The power of the Dean movement always came from its energy and optimism. Dried up bitter revenge seeking is, as you point out, a specialty of the Bush people.

Most Dean supporters I know are getting educated about the political process and becoming more effective campaigners.

So, as for his supporters, there are all kinds. I hope the "revenge seekers" are few.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Adelante]

109. It's really too bad Howard Dean lied about that

"faux Democrat" thing.

And that you love to repeat that lie endlessly.

Not that you haven't seen it many times before:

Dated January 7, 2002, Pulaski County, Arkansas

[Larkspur]

112. NO, the Media caught Clark on the fact that he was not registered as a Dem

in Arkansas. It was after the Media came out with that fact, supported by Arkansas Voter Registrar, that Clark re-registered as a Democrat. Clark was an Independent and Independents can temporarily switch their Party affiliation to vote in primaries. They do it here in CT.

[melnjones]

127. Amazing that

you can continue arguing this false point even after seeing papers to the contrary.

[madfloridian]

115. WesDem, Clark himself did not think he was registered.

Here are two articles. They both indicate that he and the campaign did not think he was registered.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-10-01-clark-usat_x.htm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20031002-122243-1914r.htm

If he had registered in 2002, why did he not know it himself?
Am I reading something wrong?

[FrenchieCat]

125. The problem is this....

Howard Dean called Wes Clark A REPUBLICAN UNTIL 25 DAYS AGO.

That was a lie, no matter one stands on their head or not.

Whether he was a Democrat or an Independent.....

Dean said at least 100 times "HE WAS A REPUBLICAN UNTIL 25 DAYS AGO".

Get it?

[melnjones]

128. The first article

indicates nothing of the sort. Think about it- if the media told ME that I was a registered republican, the first thing that would cross my mind would be, well I'd better check this out to make sure they didn't mess up the paperwork a couple years back (the "technicalities"). When I first registered to vote the paperwork never even went through and I couldn't vote in that first election, so yes, it does happen.

The second article is from the Washington Times- not the most reliable source IMHO. Right up there with FOX.

[Crunchy Frog]

120. Care to provide any evidence that Clark

was campaigning for Bush and Cheney in 2000? If you can't, then I wish you would stop stating untruths as if they were facts.

Of course it's not verifiable that Clark voted for Clinton and Gore. We have the secret ballot in this country. It's no more verifiable that he did than it is that Dean did, or that you did.

At any rate, I really do not understand this obsession you have with Clark that you must bring him up and attack him in threads that aren't about him.

Dean has every right to call other Democrats every name in the book if he wants to. Frankly, I think it would be irresponsible of him to do it in his capacity as Party Chair. I expect that he wants to build up and strengthen the party, not tear it down and alienate its members. But then, maybe I have a higher opinion of Howard Dean than you do.:shrug:

[ginnyinWI]

124. Howard Dean also called John Kerry a Republican

You can read it in the book, The Candidate, by Paul Alexander. This was during the primary season. Once Kerry won the nomination, he was for him all the way. Did you see his speech for Kerry at the Convention?

[Adelante]

33. There were malicious tricks enough to go around

On all sides, including from the Dean campaign, but holding these grudges is a waste of time and energy. Worse, it feeds the fractionating of the party. I certainly hope Dean, as he starts his chairmanship, is bigger than this. I trust he will be, as he is being elected, not coronated, to serve the entire party, and will be answerable to the entire party. He, at least, seems to understand this.

"Sadistic delight in Dean's downfall"? It's politics, everybody is running against each other, and it is delightful, I suppose, when opponents fall. We don't have far to go back in history, for another example: witness the glee as Dean's opponents in the DNC chair race fell only days ago. Double standards don't help.

I remember a great deal of sympathy and support from DUers, of every camp, when Dean met his end in Iowa and outrage at what the media did to him.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasSissy]

92. Dean's supporters were known to be calling voters in Iowa

telling them untruths about the opponents.

We all heard horror stories about what the other candidates' supporters were doing.

[madfloridian]

100. Please post proof of that.

When you make a statement that blatant, please post a source. You should not just say we all know.

[TexasSissy]

130. Sure. As soon as Larkspur posts proof of unethical behavior

by supporters of Kerry, Clark, etc.

[Crunchy Frog]

119. Do you plan to do that by alienating

as many Democrats as possible from their own party? Do you think that's what Dean intends to do as DNC Chair? Go around carrying out vendettas against all the other Democrats what's done him wrong?

I certainly hope that's not what he plans to do. I would also hope that his supporters would be more interested in actually supporting what Dean is trying to do than carrying out vendettas themselves.

Dean is now going to be the face of the party. Let's try as much as possible to not make that face an ugly and vindictive one. It's not doing Dean or the party any favors at all.

[Rowdyboy]

17. I think that some people are still fighting the 2004 primaries....

Like some reactionary southerners still are fighting the civil war. Well the south lost the civil war, and no amount of anger or frustration will change that.

Same with Dean in the 2004 primaries.

Regardless, he'll make a damn fine chairman.

[KittyWampus]

38. Rowdyboy, I'm Not Fighting Primaries... I'm Fighting The Misconceptions

that many Dean supporters have about him, his record, and how he fared in the Primary race.

Dean has a lot to offer... but the REALITY of who he is and is not gets served poorly by many DU'ers posting here.

A lot of those who mythologize Dean are also ones who trash fellow Democrats.

This is counterproductive behavior which I feel compelled to point out.

[Rowdyboy]

51. This whole thread appears to be about re-fighting primaries....

I think we're all confusing Dean supporters/Clark supporters on this board with Dean and Clark. Both men have been ill-served by some of their more outspoken internet supporters.

Regardless of how anyone feels at this point, Howard Dean is all but certain to be the next chair of the DNC. Tearing him down at this point serves no purpose except to further split the party and alienate his backers.

And if his more left-wing supporters choose to see the moderate governor as some sort of corporate-busting hero who'll save the world, what purpose is served by bursting their bubble?

As to ANYONE who spends their time here trashing Democrats, I think they'd be far better served on Free Republic. They have far more in common with our extreme right-wing brothers and sisters than they do with us.

[janx]

52. RB, about this part:

"And if his more left-wing supporters choose to see the moderate governor as some sort of corporate-busting hero who'll save the world, what purpose is served by bursting their bubble?"

Who are these people? I have yet to run into them. :shrug: This seems to be a common misconception.

In fact, we are the ones who will have to "do stuff"...

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2003/danziger2274.html

[Rowdyboy]

53. Oh, over the last 18 months I've run into a few....

But they're just a few. Overall, 95% of Dean supporters know who and what they're backing. They have realistic views both of the governor, and the powers of the DNC chair. But there are a few that feel he is the ONLY answer to the problems facing America. On the other hand, there are a dedicated few Dean-haters who think the man is evil incarnate. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Sadly, those few who absolutely love Dean or absolutely abhor Dean are among the most vocal on DU and, because of their outspokenness, have come to represent the two sides. The world is not black and white, love Dean/hate Dean. There are shades of gray that are far more accurate depictions of the truth.

Personally, I prefer to just look forward to Dean shaking up the political establishment a bit, ruffling a few self-satisfied feathers, and maybe giving a voice to those who currently feel left out by the party.

[ultraist]

66. I agree Rowdy Boy! Leave the Dem bashing to the freepers

Why are people stuck in the primary wars? The candidates have moved on. Dean endorsed Edwards after Dean dropped, Clark campaigned for Edwards when he was running for VP. They appeared TOGETHER at events.
Edwards never once, trashed Dean or Clark. What's up with the nasty, Repuke like attacks?

Dean is going to make an excellent chair and I hope the few Clarkies that are saying things like, "Dean can't be trusted" or "Dean plays dirty tricks" etc get a grip.

Dean was the best choice for chair and I hope ALL DEMOCRATS support him in that position. Taking down our OWN DNC LEADER is counterproductive.

[melnjones]

129. Take a look at this thread...

What starts the majority of these little "fights?" Someone bashing Clark. The truth is however that a good number of us even support Dean for chair, myself included.

edit for clarity

[XemaSab]

87. One poster made the excellent observation....

...that the different candidates in the primaries represented different futures for the party, and that by refighting the primaries we're advocating different directions for the party to go in.

[corbett]

31. Second That!

My thoughts, exactly!

---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1570951#1571206

[Liberty Belle]

9. How about a DNC newspaper to turn the party around?

Dean is seriously considering launching one. If we can get the real news out and bypass the mainstream propaganda machine, Dean could make all the difference.

This was posted earlier tonight elsewhere at DU:


Dems Will Win (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-05-05 07:07 AM
Original message

Met Howard Dean! DNC could make their own newspaper! Article ideas??

Edited on Sat Feb-05-05 08:06 AM by Dems Will Win
I am the consultant that suggested and created The Dean Times during the IA and NH primaries. 275,000 copies.

I went to Burlington and met with Howard Dean's top staff and we explored the possibility of making a regular DFA newspaper.

I am here asking DU would you subscribe to a DNC newspaper that would be published by a DNC run by Dean?

and secondly, please suggest below the issues you think the media has failed on and what you would like to see reported on the paper. Also suggestions for charts, interviews, stories, framing, how the newspaper can be used to organize, etc.

I think we could soon be open for business, BABY! 1 million copies for the first issue, about half the size of the NY Times. That oughta keep the press on their toes! America will be shocked to read the truth for once.

"Become the media" - That's my motto.

[NYCGirl]

42. Before we start passing that idea around, Dems Wil lWin met with DFA

He did not meet with anyone associated with the DNC, so the newspaper is not a done deal. There is a difference between publishing a newspaper for a campaign or a PAC than publishing one for a political party.

[Liberty Belle]

74. Thanks for clarifying. His post asked if we'd support a

DNC paper published by a DNC run by Dean, though. So it clearly implies he's hoping for a DNC paper rather than a DFA paper.

Either would be a good move, however.

[Guaranteed]

10. "Dean was the best out of a bunch of bad choices."

Dean was a bad choice?

My friend, this was the job he was BORN to do.

[fujiyama]

23. I think I worded that comment wrong

I would say though, that his competition wasn't very impressive and the rest were bad choices for the most part...So when I said "Best of bad choices", I meant, otherwise really terrible choices...so no, I am not calling Dean a bad choice. I'm not sure if he's the ideal choice, but then again I can't really think of anyone else that is.

All that said, I'm happy Dean will be chair and for one, he'll make Sunday morning shows almost watchable again (I'm looking forward to watching him take on Melman).

[janx]

44. The more I think about it, BGL, the more I agree.

Some of us were a bit ambiguous at the thought of this run for DNC chair. Now, though--wow. If you think about Dean's abilities to diagnose problems, to manage money, to make political assessments, to motivate people with hope, and to stand up for real morality...

He's made for it. There's no doubt.

My S/O had CNN going (I don't watch much cable), and good ole' Candy Crowley graced us were her downplaying of Dean--how the "celebration" was premature, how the DNC chair was only a "fundraising" position and didn't set policy, etc.. Then she quickly went on to gush about Laura Bush: the dress she was wearging, comportment...blech! Such transparent writing of Crowley's spiel I have never seen.

I had to laugh. ;-)

[madfloridian]

12. Why are you trying to relive the primaries?

We have had many get in trouble for bringing it up. Was that wise?

There are many, not just a few...and yes, bitterness. I have quit posting on Dean here at all until I saw this. I have been accused of reliving the primaries. I think your post is meant to cause us to do that. If one group can not relive, then others should not either.

It is not good thing.

[fujiyama]

24. I'm just hoping that having him in a leadership position

can heal the wounds. I'm sorry if that's offensive in any way.

As for your posts about Dean, I'm sorry that you have quit posting about him. I enjoyed reading about him.

[madfloridian]

64. You could have said it without the remark about the primaries.

It would have been just as effective. You brought it up first, you started it. We have had a lot of people lately who are not permitted back here at DU. A lot of us have backed off, and now you bring it up.

Thanks so very much.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Looks like it hasn't ended the bitterness about the primaries at all.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

14. Many of us have effectively left here to avoid this.

This time it is NOT our side bringing it up. Fair is fair.

[CoffeeCat]

19. I'm a total pessimist when it comes to this issue...

...sorry to be a sopping, wet blanket--but I believe the only reason Dean will become chair--is because the Dem leaders want him out of 2008 contention.

I love Dean. I caucused for him in Iowa. Everyone defected for other candidates and I stood alone for him. He's amazing.

I have a tough time believing he will make a difference, because of the DLC crowd. They don't like Dean. They treated him like dirt during the primaries. They don't want the party moving in a progressive manner, and this is obvious by their own Republican-lite agenda.

I have a tough time believing that these DLCers really like Dean and his ideas now. They may use him to court the liberals/progressives--because the party is falling apart. They'll take our money also.

I'm concerned about Dean, too. I believe he may become frustrated. The DLC-brigade may set him up--to appear edgy, explosive and off balance--to discredit him in the long term.

[tkmorris]

21. Don't agree

The so called "Dem Leaders" seem to have in fact done everything in their power to stop Dean from getting the chair. They have just failed, and pretty miserably at that.

It looks as if the state level DNC members, the ones who actually decide who the chair is, have themselves become quite disenchanted with the DLC crowd. They are looking for more support, and more power within the party. Dean is onboard with that.

There was a fascinating inside look kind of article on here a day or two ago which told the story pretty well. Let me see if I can dig it up.....

[tkmorris]

22. Found it

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=GC1nbWBk1KawulpqPq3uRR%3D%3D

Originally posted by Moggie12 in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1565021

[janx]

47. Absolutely!

For once the Dem organization worked the way it was intended to work. Instead of a select few making the decisions, the DNCers in all of the states are voicing their opinions.

It's not over yet, but it's looking good so far.

[candy331]

56. TwoSparkles I hope you are wrong and I sure believe you too hope

you are wrong but I have to say I concur with you. I truly didn't want Dean to run for Chair but he is a big boy and hopefully knows what he has gotten himself into and if that is his choice so be it. That being said I will support and root for his success as Chair.

[madfloridian]

20. I am off again....want to say that Dean folks did NOT start this thread.

We get in trouble for reliving the primaries, so I now back to my not posting about Dean here.

Just wanted to get a subject line to point out we did not do this.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. All the original poster said was that he hoped Dean being

DNC chair would end the rehashing of the primaries and the bitterness. You acknowledge feeling bitter in one of your posts in this thread. Where's the harm in what he said?

:shrug:

[fujiyama]

30. Thank you

for understanding what I said in my OP.

[madfloridian]

63. There is much harm in reliving the primaries.

There is much bitterness, and a great deal of it is directed AT us.

The bitterness is not as much with us as with those at loose ends who would rather relive the primaries. If one side can keep reliving, why not the other?

I am not bitter about the primaries per se. I get angry when I see those who rejoiced in Dean's primary loss gloating. I am angry because I see the same things going on now. Other Democratic boards are thinking of ways to undermine his position already.

I feel very sorry for Howard Dean, as it does look like it will be his position for now. I and many others know exactly what is coming. It is what he wanted, and we are behind him.

We don't have to wait for the mainstream media to attack him, we can do it right at our Democratic forums.

Take a look at who has been reliving the primaries. It has not been Dean supporters, it has been those who are trying to bait us. I left rather than take part in hurting the party, but I may have made the wrong decision.

It takes two to relive primaries.

[Upfront]

94. Wrong!

He said they were all poor choices. Thoroughly pissing me off and every Dean supporter here. Get on board, give the man some room, or get to hell out of the way!

[ultraist]

67. I hope you and other Deaniacs come back and post about Dean

After he WINS the DNC Chair. We need to build support up behind our DNC leader. Tearing down our DNC leader will only make the party weaker. We should be focusing on building UP our support.

[madfloridian]

71. You never know.

I left because I had a bullseye on my back. I just got tired. Seeing this thread has made me realize how desperately we need to get our country back.

Others are not permitted back, sadly.

I think it is not us who relive the primaries. However, I will defend, and I will present what material I have if necessary.

We can not have a viable party when our Democrats are being petty.

[demwing]

32. Dean will Redefine the Office

"I'm happy about Dean being chair, but let's not fool ourselves"
into believing that just because he's chair, the party's fate will suddenly turn around."

Fujiyama, there's NOTHING that will "suddenly" turn around the fate of this party, just as there was nothing that could have "suddenly" stopped the Titanic from hitting an iceberg. But Dean's ascension into the role of chair could bring "eventual" change to the party, possibly even "inevitable" change. Who cares about "suddenly?"

"Dean was the best out of a bunch of bad choices. I think he should be interesting though. He might inject some much needed enthusiasm at the least."

Talk about damning someone with faint praise! Obviously, you don't expect much from Dean. A nice show, a little enthusiasm, jeez, maybe he'll dance and sing for his supper? That would be interesting!

I don't accept your latter statements in this thread backing away from these comments. It's clear you think Dean is a poor choice for the job. Yeah you siad that you were "happy about Dean being chair" but that seems born more from the fact that you think the other candidates were even less qualified, and that you hope to throw a bone to the Dean supporters after last years primaries (Now maybe they'll get over it, right?). You haven't given any other reasons why you're happy to see Dean in the job.

"Still, there is no indication that the chair can do all that much."

You sound like James Carville in his latest rant about the DNC chair. Don't we get it? Don't we know that the chair is supposed to be a rigged deal? Don't we know that the chair is just a fundraising job? Don't we know that Republicans don't do things this way?

Yeah. WE know. lol.....

BTW--before Teddy Roosevelt was President, there was no indication that the Presidency could be used as such an effective "bully pulpit" either. Talented people use the tools they are given in dynamic and exciting ways. I fully expect Dean to change our perception and expectations of what the duties of the DNC chair ought to be.

I think many people are in for an awakening.

"I don't see how Dean can really turn the party's chances around in the south..."

Then you have not been listening. The party elite say that to compete in the South we have to become more socially conservative. Dean says that to compete in the South we have to change the way people think about politics and not let Republicans and Republican-lite brews draw the agenda and define the terms of the debate.

Dean sees that there is one way we can become like Republicans that will be effective and not compromise core Democratic principles - and that's by competing for office at the lowest level of government.

All politics is local politics. Dean gets this. If the Democratic party learns to dominate local politics in the South, then we'll have no problem competing for higher office in the same area.

"Which is why I'm also not going to either blame him or give him too much credit for how Dems do in '06."

Well, there's not much to say then, is there? Even if Dean succeeds, you won't give credit where credit is due.

Again, I think some people, including yourself fujiyama, are in for an awakening.

"I also hope that Dean becoming Chair will finally end last year's primaries. A small number still seem extremely bitter about that."

Some of us have already forgiven any perceived slights or betrayals, and moved on. But even amongst those who forgave, there are few who will forget. The primaries are over, but the spirit of that primary season, the fight for the heart and soul--and control--of this Party, is very much alive and kicking. Perhaps that's why we seem bitter? Because we won't shut up?

We'll, if you--or anyone else--have been waiting for the Dean supporters to shut up and get back to business as usual, you've been fooling yourselves.

peace :)

[fujiyama]

39. I'm expecting no one

to shut up.

That's part of the fun in all of this. ;-)

Hey, Dean's success is all of OUR success (I want Dems to start winning as well dammit!), and I was probably a bit quick to say I wouldn't give him any credit were Dems to pick up seats in '06 (hell even being able to defend them would be fine), but still call me pessimistic. I just don't see much changing.

Part of my reason for feeling this way is that I don't even think it's about Dean. It's about the political atmosphere in this country in general (regardless of who is chair I see major problems ahead). I also am worried that people have defined Dean so much already as a cariciture (and I think this was a combination of the media and mistakes he made during the campaign) that he can't back away from this. Some of the mistakes have been from WITHIN the party, particularly those by the DLC (ie, he's 'soft on terror' BS). He'll be a forceful advocate. I'm not disputing that. Still sometimes it's hard to escape stereotypes though.

I'm not for a rigged process like Carvill though - as amusing as I find the ragin' cajun', I'm not fond of his connection with party hacks (particularly the types pushed by Hillary). My guess is he's already tryin to get her to run for '08.

I AM glad that Dean was the winner. I know I didn't sound very enthusastic, but I am more hopeful with Dean being the chair than say a DINO like Roemer (it'll be hard to forgive Pelosi for peddling that BS idea).

[Adelante]

34. fujiyama, I've thought, too

That there may be overexpectation of what any chair can accomplish. We need to focus on restructuring the party mechanics toward winning elections and reforming the overall election system, or none of it will matter.

[KittyWampus]

35. Bad Choices? I Think Not. And Sorry, Lowering Expectations Won't Fly

the soft bigotry of low expectations....

Sorry, Dean supporters have been tauting him as the savior... he'll have to live up to the hype or THIS DU'er will certainly point out the bullshit.

[CTLawGuy]

54. I'd expect nothing less...

[madfloridian]

75. He will be kept in line.

And so will we. :spank:

[CWebster]

41. Hopeful changes

Reason enough for optimism.

[janx]

45. Well I'm not bitter.

;-)

What a bold experiment we have undertaken now to elect our DNC chair, and what a pity that Carville and those like him don't approve. The rank-and-rile talk to their precinct leaders or country chairs, who then talk to their DNC representatives and state chairs, who then elect a DNC chair. (Or, some people talk to as many as they can and send letters to their state chairs...)

d-e-m-o-c-r-a-c-y in a republic.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

[lojasmo]

48. Since we've gotten our asses kicked for the last 3 election cycles...

I'll surely give Dean plenty of credit if we make significant gains in 2006 and/or 2008

[NYCGirl]

50. Hell, I'll be happy with

even modest gains in 2006!
:evilgrin:

[lojasmo]

82. I will consider ANY gains to be significant!

Top that!

[NYCGirl]

86. You got me there, lojasmo!

LOL!
:thumbsup:

[RetroLounge]

57. "A small number still seem extremely bitter "

Yeah, and they attack Dean on every thread.

Why is that?

RL

[moggie12]

69. I'm SICK AND TIRED of the Dean bashing

I didn't support Dean during the primaries, but I think he'll do great as the DNC Chair. I think if people are REAL DEMOCRATS they'd stop re-fighting old wars and buckle-down and get to work doing anything they can to help Howard Dean (and Harry Reid, too, -- I see Dean and Reid as the two people most important right now in the battle to stop Bush and the GOP from further wrecking our country).

Check out this recent DU post. A Clark supporter asked DUers to do a poll saying whether they's support Dean as DNC: Most said "Hell, yeah", even if they'd supported other candidates during the primaries. To me this says that there are just a few people out there who can't "grow up" and put old wounds behind them and work together for the good of our Party.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1567064

Also check out this post: I asked people to brainstorm ideas about how to support Dean. Most people were very constructive!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1567741

[ultraist]

70. It's not just Dean that gets attacked, it's Edwards too

It seems to be an organized effort.

I am so not into tearing down Democrats like this. Granted, I have said my share of negatives about Lieberman but this nasty bashing is so UNDemocratic. It's vicious and destructive.

[FrenchieCat]

89. I haven't seen any "attack" Dean threads.....nor Edwards, for that matter

I HEAR a lot of complaining about this phenomenon, but see little evidence of it. I know that Clarkies have been accused of this, but I really haven't seen these "Organized efforts" threads that are spoken of so often. Do you have some recent DU links examplifying this behavior? If so, I'd like to see them....as I am getting just a wee bit curious as to what the real scoop is here.

I could easily complain to say the same thing about Clark bashing threads....on Kosovo, on having been the anti-Dean, etc.,etc., etc. (I have those threads bookmarked and many ended up locked--so if you want examples, I can provide them). I would also could say the same thing about Kerry bashing threads...that start as a positive post, and end with bashers coming in and saying really nasty things.

So, what I will say is that I have seen instances of a poster starting a POSITIVE thread on an individual (e.g. Clark), and small clusters of posters will come and piss on the threads. I can't say that this happens to Dean or Edwards exclusively...in fact, that's why I asked for an example. I would even dare to say that it actually happens more to Clark and Kerry (not that this is a contest, mind you).

[madfloridian]

103. Well, then a quick search will enlighten you.

Pissing on threads is done a lot not just here but at other forums. It is becoming a joke.

I have a couple of things saved to my hard drive that border on threats. Now that is sad, isn't it?

[madfloridian]

72. Sadly, you are right. That is what is happening.

And WE get the blame. Someone wrote me a note when I stopped posting about Dean a couple of weeks ago, and they said I was acting cowardly.

I think they might have been right.

[RetroLounge]

79. I've been watching you post about Dean and DFA.

Cowardly is NOT a word that comes to mind.

Don't stop.

RL

[sendero]

68. It is a positive development...

... just one of a string of many needed to effect any real change.

But it is a start, and a reason for hope!

[DFLforever]

73. I like your sticker.

It captures the essence of Repubs.

[sendero]

81. Thank you :)

I try to capture the essence :)

[tearsofneptune]

77. I don't really know about 06..

How long can seniors and consumers really be fooled into beleiving they're making money under bush and that he's god like? by 06 social security and medicare will be gutted, And the seniors (When they look at their returns, rising cost of prescriptions, etc) will be forced to realize they've been screwed. I know many of you don't think the public is "Ever" going to wake up, but seriously, defeatism is just a bad idea all around. If you beleive you're going to win you're more likely to suceed.

Besides, I really think that 06 is going to draw a bush/mccain schism. Don't qoute me as the best reader of future events but mccain has always had honor, Screwing seniors is really not up his alley.

Sooner or later there has GOT to be some sort of rebellion/consumer revolt. How long are people going to stand back and be screwed by the "Right"? it's only a matter of time.

[OneTwentyoNine]

80. Who cares,I'm ready for change and thats Dean! nt

[mzmolly]

83. "Bad choices" ... please share your thought on who might have been a

good choice.

Dean is not only an excellent choice, he's the BEST choice in the entire nation.

I have no qualms about saying that. Further, you just watch the "party's fate" because Dean will make huge strides.

[ultraist]

88. I choose to be inspired! Dean is going to take us in the right direction.

This is an exciting time, a time to restore our party to what it once was.

[Debi]

91. I'm sorry you're so disenchanted

Maybe Dean being Chair will energize more people to be involved...vote...knock doors..make calls..give money (any amount).

Maybe that's enough to change the Party

:kick:

[madfloridian]

95. Is this still floating around? This is pure baloney.

No one thinks the party's fate will just "turn around." That is pure baloney. There are groups of people here who will, to put it bluntly, do anything they can to sabotage his job.

The people can turn it around, the party can not. The chair can not.

This is baloney, and it was most certainly was meant as a swipe at us as Dean supporters.

I am very sad that certain people are waiting breathlessly, as some of the posts above show, for him to make any mistakes at all.

Our party is a wreck, he is brave enough to try. I find it shameful that people say we "lowered the bar" of expectations. That is baloney.

[lojasmo]

118. You're being generous, MadFla

These people are salivating to stir discontent within dean's constituency.


It's sour grapes left over from pushing a sure loser in the primaries.

[mvd]

97. Dean will hopefully..

help a lot to craft our message and get it out there. That would do quite a bit. Also, his strategy of improving things locally could have an impact in the South.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mvd]

105. Actually, Dean believes that extra gun laws..

should be a local decision. While that's not my take, this position could help the party.

We have a large pro-choice base and should not compromise very much on that.

[John_H]

114. I'm worried about the hero worshipers.

who refuse to believe that Howard Dean is a politician, and thus subject to the same tendencies and temptations that all politicians, however noble, are subject to. Im worried that this is going to create two problems: Folks so euphoric that Dean is "in" that they neglect holding Dean's feet to the fire (like one might do with any politician) to make sure he does what he says he's going to do. And if, partially as a result not holding dean's feet to the fire, Dean moves a little too much toward the status quo, a mass backlash from the left in which dean's onetime strongest supporters cripple his chairmanship.

[madfloridian]

116. I am worried about our party.

You do not need to worry about us at all.

[Hippo_Tron]

126. Agree, cept for the best out of a bunch of bad choices part

Dean will do a good job. But Dean as DNC Chair can't win the elections alone. The candidates themselves are much more responsible for their own fates than the DNC is.