Something is really pissing me off: what I am seeing in Christianity.

[coloradodem2005]

All these threads about Christians. It makes me so mad that these blind sheep: militant pro-life/anti-gay types to the woman with her hands together in prayer with a Bush/Cheney sticker on with an adoring look on her face as though Bush is God. Right now, I am so angry it is unfuckingbelievable. All these people are enforcing their will on everyone. I don't know what to say about modern evangelicals. I know Jim Wallis of Sojourners considers himself one. I like him. I saw him on The Daily Show, I get the Sojourners newsletters and I like a lot of what he has to say. Especially about disaffected people coming back to God because they see that it is not all a bunch of conservative idiots like Robertson, Falwell and Dobson. Or for that matter, Bush. Now, instead of being a religion, where they are free to worship in peace, they are getting so self-righteous with their new found power. And my attitude towards them has really taken a huge beating. The other thing is, they cannot seem to understand why I am so angry and hurt with them. I quit going to church because instead of helping me clear things up, I just got more confused. Instead of feeling lifted up, I felt weighed down with all of the "do this. don't do that" rhetoric. Not to mention the fact there emphasis on how people need to suffer in order to improve morally. The problem is, I am always trying to look for God. But these people are making me very angry. When I run into people I knew from my days at church, or someone that I let know that I am seeking, they use it to sell me on all the things that I don't like. Some of that comes to the forefront. When something bad happens to me, they say "Maybe God doesn't want this for you." :mad::mad::mad: Or when I talk about church experiences that left me cold they say, "You need to experience it through Christ and not through other people." :grr: :grr: :grr:

I remember an encounter when I was campaigning. I ran into a guy I knew from my old church and feel guilty about what I said, but put off by him. He saw me and didn't just come up and say hi. He stood back a few feet scrutinizing me while I was sitting at a clearly marked Democratic table. He got a little closer and then tried to start a conversation. After saying hi, he said "I didn't know you were on Kerry's side." I said "Yeah, I'm sure that makes me a sinner to you." He then very abruptly said "No no no." The conversation didn't go anywhere beyond that. God, I am just so mad. I am mad about the self-righteousness on their part. I get so mad about them promoting bigotry and intolerance. Mr. Dobson, if you want to make a difference, why don't you try to help people who need it and not attack a cartoon for promoting diversity and acceptance. The religious left needs to get organized and fast. I cannot deal with the religious right anymore. We as a nation tolerate the intolerant if we ourselves are not intolerant. But I cannot deal with the self-righteousness. I cannot abide any of this fucking shit anymore. When I read a thread on here about what the religious right wants to do next, I feel like throwing something. Well to the religius right, I must say this: "Tell me I'm a sinner, well I got news for you. I spoke to God this morning and he don't like you." Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

[HamiltonHabs32]

1. hear hear

Nice rant, I gave up on the church well over a year now. Once I figure out the diffrence between agnostic, athiest and humanist but once I do I will chose one of them as my new beliefs until then my mind is taking a break.

[A HERETIC I AM]

5. A = Without Theos = God

Gnosis = knowledge thus an Atheist has no god or gods and an Agnostic has no knowledge one way or the other or is of the opinion that the existence of god is unprovable one way or the other. As far as Humanism goes try here; http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html A very dignified and applicable philosophical worldview

[Erika]

2. Take a deep breath

The right wing are running on orgasmic energy. They got their guy in and tax cuts for the rich. I doubt if they have anything to do with Christ. I suspect just the opposite.

[coloradodem2005]

3. Well, people need to be made to realize this.

I want their breed to go away forever.

[mzmolly]

4. Visit a local UCC or find a Quaker meeting if you'd like some rational

Christian "fellowship."

:hi:

Also visit the center for progressive christianity, you can find some churches here.

www.tcpc.org

They have a discussion forum as well.

[autorank]

6. Coloradodem2005, mzmolly is SOOOOOO RIGHT ON WITH THIS! DO IT.

:pals:

[Ellen Forradalom]

88. Quakers rock

I am down with the Quakers.

Finding your own path and a heavy emphasis on peace and justice right here on earth make them very cool. Check them out.

[xchrom]

7. the faith has a cancer in it.

and i'm afraid it isn't going to get smaller any time soon.

evangelicals, fundamentalists, dominionists, etc do not mean peace with the rest of the world.

they are evil and they intend to spread that evil -- by any means.

now they could be blunted severly -- if they could be seperated from their non-believing anti-tax corporate shepherds.

the war liberals, socialists, lefties, democrats, etc have to fight is two pronged -- making it all the more difficult because the target appears to be a moving one.

for me the war on free market capitalism is the important one -- because they use the zealots as foot soldiers to push their agenda -- and to frighten, cow, bludgeon everybody else.

that's my two cents -- but -- you are as right as rain and kudos for some good thoughts.

[radfringe]

8. what is even more scary

is if you pay attention to the "christian" rhetoric and the rhetoric coming from Mullahs -- the only difference is in which "god" they invoke

just substitute "Jesus" for "Allah" and visa-versa

[mwb970]

9. It's our fundies vs. their fundies.

I consider our fundies scarier and more dangerous. They are already in our communities and are much better at blending in. They are in a position to attack America every day whereas the foreign fundies only get to do it once in a while.

[radfringe]

10. from the Dean-Perlman debate

watched the rebroadcast on C-Span yesterday..

one of the comments made by Perlman fits into this topic

he was asked about Iran/Syria -- he said that they wouldn't listen to reason, and diplomacy is a dead end, they were fanatics

sounds to me like he could be talking about the bushies -- they won't listen to reason, refuse to make more than a photo-op effort at diplomacy and they are fanatics too...

like I said -- not much difference -- just a cut/paste and switch the nouns/labels and it's the same pile of bush*t

[FreedomAngel82]

38. So true

And sad really. *sigh* I thought Allah was God? In the F911 film when they show the woman crying and praying and praising Allah it translates to God? :shrug: Are their God and ours the same?

[DARE to HOPE]

51. Yes. El-Hebrew, Al-Arabic...

...same God, creator of the universe, and of all the dear people in it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Yes, "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God"

Arab Christians also worship "Allah."

[Skidmore]

11. Dobson, Falwell, Robertson and those like them do not

really suffer in order to improve morally or spiritually. They prey on people and teach them this, waving one hand in benediction while the other is busy picking the congregant's pocket. These men are erstwhile members of the singularly American version of a priest class--modern Pharisees who sat by the temple gate condemning all who enter. Throughout history, this class has done much damage to mankind. This is why I have no use for organized religion, particularly of the evangelical/fundamentalist persuasion here. You don't need organized Christian religion to order your life as a moral individual. If that it were true that you did, the vast majority of people in the world would be totally depraved.

[lonestarnot]

15. cults for cash! n/t

[SharonAnn]

61. Oooh, I like that! May I borrow it? "Cults for Cash!" sounds good.

[lonestarnot]

78. Go for it!

[ginnyinWI]

37. It's Fear v.s. Hope

The religious right and the political right have one thing in common,and that is that they both use fear to motivate. Fear of Hell. Fear of Terrorists. Fear of Communists.Fear, fear, fear.

The religious left and the political left use Hope. Hope of a better tomorrow. Hope for unity. Hope of a world without FEAR.

I hope the religious left gets its message together and puts it out, because many people think that the Dobson kind of "christianity" is all there is. Look for liberal Catholics, Episcopalians, Unitarians, and some Lutherans--any groups that don't claim to have evangelical missions. Avoid Baptists, Assemblies of God, "independent" Bible Churches. Of course I'm generalizing here, and don't mean to offend anyone!

I am a former religious right person myself, and former repub. I began my metamorphosis in 1992. :) Now I am a member of the Democratic party, campaigned furiously for Kerry, and don't go to any church at all. But I still care much more about the poor, weak and needy in this country than my supposedly Christian extended family does. So many of the Right's churches just take care of their own.
For example, we gave to the tsunami victims; they did not.

[DARE to HOPE]

69. Well said.

Though even some of us "evangelical" Lutherans (even in the LCMS!) also lean to the HOPE side. :-)

I can imagine what you are surrounded with in some parts of Wisconsin. But that is where I became a Democrat, and a liberal Lutheran, too, in the early seventies. :-)

THANK YOU for your story. It gives us ALL hope. Americans ARE well meaning--we just need to circulate the real information.

[ginnyinWI]

75. it's all good, Dare to Hope!

:) I know about Lutherans too, because I was confirmed in that denomination as a child. I do know that they are definitely more on the "hope" side than the "fear" side. I remember them being liberal and inclusive, not hateful. Even when they had "Evangelical" in their name, they weren't the kind of pushy crusaders that I was talking about.
Then when I got into the conservative churches as a young adult, they were proclaiming denominations like Lutheran to be "dead churches", while only the "born again" churches were legitimate. Now I see that for what it was--blatantly promoting their own denomination for monetary gain. (Ok I am admittedly rather cynical now!)

I'm fascinated by the relationship between faith and politics. Both are very touchy subjects to bring up in mixed (righties and lefties) company! The common tie is how both are related to moral issues, and by that term I mean ALL of the many ways that human beings treat each other and interact, not merely the sexual ways.

Thankyou for your reply; I am reminded about what I liked about being a Lutheran, and might go back and give them a try again, and see what's happened with them during the many years I've been away. :)

[DARE to HOPE]

77. Picture a young clergyman with long hair and a beard, and "love"...

...contact paper on his guitar case. Oh, and sandals on his feet, and a McGovern sticker on his briefcase. :-) That was my sweetheart in the early 1970's. We tried to take on the south side of Chicago--not so easy, as "Democrat" in Chicago did not mean the same thing as everywhere else in the midwest!

In any case, our working class parish was pretty straight Republican--we went through the whole thing, Moral Majority attacks from 1980 on--thirty years later our folks are mostly Democrat.

We formed a clergy group that fought for racial understanding and interaction, organized peace marches, formed food pantries, and eventually Hope Community services, fighting poverty and lifting education any way we could.

But the mainline churches are struggling. We still have as many kids as ever to help raise. There are just fewer families that get involved. I know the economy has a lot to do with it. But while the Mennonite, R Catholic, and Lutheran churches are all still here, hanging on through faith and prayer, our UCC and U Methodist churches have closed.

Meanwhile, in the 1980's and 1990's we have seen Assembly of God and unaffiliated Baptist churches spring up in the neighborhood. Invited the clergy to our ecumenical group--their idea of ecumenism was to want to preach in our churches to come to theirs.

Thirty years later we are worn and tired, though still plugging away faithfully. So many consider our parish their home. Yet they do not support it, through time or money. The four generation extended families are all around us, the 20 and 30-somethings too often listening to Rush and O'Reilly. It is so frustrating--if they would only attend church, they would grow into the mature, loving Christians that God means them to be.

Anyway. "Dead" church, huh?

It is nice to know you, ginnyinWI

[elshiva]

90. Thank you for plugging the Episcopalians, ginny!

Also how about Reformed or Reconstrustionist Judaism? Or Sufi Muslims? These groups are Not fundies!

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Don't

all of them have mansions as well? Talk about being humble...

[Vinnie From Indy]

12. For Some Odd Reason, The religious right in this country

have somehow confused fascism with faith.

[tinanator]

13. dont throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater

Religious faith and organizations have brought us some of our finest leaders and spokespeople, MLK jr., Malcolm X, many more I cant think of in this early AM haze, social programs and projects that provide care for the low and no income citizens who might otherwise go completely hungry, threadbare and shelterless. Any discussion based on the teachings of Jesus will be at tremendous odds with the message delivered by the phony hatemongers and power strokers.
Its a better tool than derision. There are so many devout activists it is a crime to dismiss their good deeds by lump summing the cruel hypocrites with the decent folks who do the hard work thanklessly.

[Vinnie From Indy]

23. Religious ideology has also KILLED more people than any other single idea!

I will grant you that it has also produced some of the greatest people and some of the most noble ideals, but don't ever forget that it has also been the source of unimaginable death, suffering and war.

[ginnyinWI]

40. true

Just compare Jesse Jackson with Jerry Falwell. There's the difference in a nutshell! ;)

[FreedomAngel82]

41. In the Bible it teaches

to watch out for false prophets. Obviously they surely fell for these false prophets hook, line and sinker.

[charles_nys]

86. self deleted

[noel711]

14. I hear ya...

so what can we do? Organize.... but most left wing faith based groups are not as organized at the right wing groups because WE are the ones out there doing the work: feeding the hungry, passing out condoms, organizing the immigrants, and serving in foreign missions.

[ClassWarrior]

16. No colorado, these people AREN'T forcing their will on everyone else...

The CORPORATISTS and the NEOCONS are forcing their will on everyone else under the guise of religion. Most church people have as much or as little power as we do. Generally, they're tools being used and abused by the Radical RW, and they'll be tossed away like disposible communion cups as soon as their usefulness runs out.

Know thine enemy. Is yours Richard Perle or misguided Granny Smith down the street?

NGU.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Excellent point! The misguided

"Granny Smith" down the street is not the real threat, annoying though she may be.

(Hmm. . . does she have an apple orchard? "Granny Smith" apples, you know! Maybe it was a "Granny Smith" apple that Adam and Eve ate?)

[MountainLaurel]

91. Maybe

If Granny Smith, say, is a teacher in your child's school and she's spending class time telling your 6-year-old that her mama is going to burn in hell for being a godless atheist, she is the enemy. Or if she's a landlord who refuses to rent to a single mother lest she aid that woman in "flaunting her sin," yeah, she's the enemy.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. All the people in my church

I know are good people in general. They help the poor, innercity people, etc. and just living their lives daily and attend church to worship God. They've been brainwashed and don't even realize BushCo and the people out there are phonies. I bet if Martin Luther King junior was reincarnated and was out there now speaking they would be curicifing him as well. The only way we can win this war is to show them the facts and the truth. Show the lies and hypocriacy of these people. The only way people will wake up is if Bush screws up or if something effects them personally. I hate how he's used and abused these people emotionally. These are people I grew up with and consider apart of my family and friends. Even my own family members (except my grandparents, brother, mom and I). My uncle didn't vote for anybody this past time (his words: "I'm not voting for either of those fools.")

[DARE to HOPE]

63. ..."or if Bush screws up?"

**Gannon**

:-)

[ClassWarrior]

72. Yes, but the truth will NOT set us free.

We need to reframe the debate for these people, or they'll never see past the Radical RW's mind control. If people from your church are attending a forced pregnancy rally, go along and take a sign that says, "How Many Unborn Children Have Bush's Bombs Killed?" Ask them how they propose to care for millions of children once forced pregnancy is mandatory. Ask them why Bush** hasn't outlawed abortion even though he's been in office for four years with a friendly Congress. (Answer: He doesn't want to outlaw abortions. He wants to use the issue to divide his opponents.)

NGU.

[CANDO]

17. I suggest this book; "What's Wrong With The Christian Right" ....

by Jan G. Linn. I got it on line through www.barnesandnoble.com. It's an excellent read and puts the right wingers on notice that they don't own Christianity. As the author puts it, these people are really the modern version of the Pharisees. Also look for a local Unitarian Universalist Church.

[Touchdown]

35. Another book to recommend.

"Eternal Hostility" documents the connections, drive, and agendas (the real ones, like stoning adulterers to death) of the RR.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=aF8BrzcAuA&isbn=1567510884&itm=1

Read it after your done with yours.:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Also don't forget

the book "How the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get it." The "God Politics" book. The author of the book was on the Daily show not long ago and talked about the book and it seems really good.

[DARE to HOPE]

64. The Reverend Jim Wallis.

Have known him and his journal "Sojourners" since the 1980's when we were all fighting Bush and Reagan the last time. Good man. :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

18. Are you aware that

a lot of Muslims consider us infidels and believe it is not a sin to kill us since we're infidels? A lot of them also actively support killing Americans because of our government's actions. But that doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, does it?

It's the same with Christians. We all get angrier with Christians not living up to their faith because most of us were raised with at least a nodding acquaintance with Christianity. We KNOW what Christians are supposed to do.

In fairness, we should speak out against Muslims and Christians--and Jews, Buddhists, Hindus --IF they are perverting their faith to their own ends. We should all work to live by our principles, whether religious or not, and call on others to live by theirs as well.

As for the people from your old church, I'd suggest NOT discussing religion or much of anything with them when you run into them, since what they say only angers you.
Just make small talk. Remember that when someone asks you a question, you DON'T have to answer it! Another tip, ask THEM a question that will put them a bit off guard or allow them to talk about something important to them but not annoying to you. Get them talking and you won't have to say much.

Keep looking for God and you'll find what you need. I feel confident about that because I'm old enough to have been through a lot of what you're going through now.

Peace. :hippie:

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. Let's look at the scoreboard shall we?

a lot of Muslims consider us infidels and believe it is not a sin to kill us since we're infidels? A lot of them also actively support killing Americans because of our government's actions. But that doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, does it?

What planet are you people from? We, a supposedly Christian nation, have just killed tens of thousands of innocent Muslims with our bombs and bullets and you make the observation that SOME Muslims do not believe it a sin to kill Christians. Not only have we killed over 100,000 with our bombs and bullets, we have killed, by some estimates, over a million Muslims over the last decade with our sanctions. Who are the killers here?

It is clearly obvious that IT IS THE CHRISTIANS in OUR country that do not believe it is a sin to KILL MUSLIMS.

[No Exit]

20. You are being court-martialed from God's army

for insubordination!

Sorry, guy, we're tearing the stripes off your uniform (just like they did to that guy in the old TV show "Branded"!)

The pigs who currently pose as Christians, and low-level military, have a LOT in common. They are trained to accept, without question, orders from above.

Sorry--you just don't fit in! You are now an outcast--doomed to a life of seeing beyond the confines of a small cage, doomed to think and understand what is way beyond the comprehension of millions of sheep-like followers. Well! I just hope you're satisfied!

[BlackVelvet04]

21. I understand

and I have struggled with this for a while. I no longer go to church but I haven't "thrown out baby Jesus with the bathwater" as someone here so aptly put it.

There are MILLIONS of non-fundamentalist, non-evangelical Christians who are struggling. We have rejected the dogma and politics of the right, but often we aren't welcomed on the left either.

Consider this: Television personality Bill Maher, host of HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher," says Christians and others who are religious suffer from a neurological disorder that "stops people from thinking." They believe in religion, which as – I think it was Jesse Ventura who had that quote about religion is a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers."

How arrogant and hate-filled and erroneous is that statement? Mankind has always congregated in groups. We have organizations, clubs, political parties and liberal political forums. Let's face it, if we didn't have a need to be with like-minded people we wouldn't be at DU....we would be posting and standing alone at conservative political forums.

The left needs to be careful and not trash all Christians because of the fundamentalist/evangelicals. I share the disgust many on the left feel toward them, but I think we need to check ourselves and make sure we aren't becoming as hate-filled and exclusive as they are.

Will the left embrace those of faith or shove them aside forcing them to choose between their faith and their politics? I am an administrator and post on another predominantly liberal forum and I stand alone as a Christian.....sometimes the rhetoric and insults directed at all Christians is pretty hard to take, but for the most part I let them pass.

If I want at times to talk to other people who feel the same as I do and that makes me weak, then so be it.

[Touchdown]

42. Neither Ventura nor Maher are "on the left".

Both are libertarians of sorts, and Maher is a self proclaimed reformed catholic.

What you are hearing is not the words of this supposed monolithic "left" but of those who do not worship/believe in a diety. The athiests and agnostics are just as welcome in our big tent party as Christians. It would do you well to compartmentalize your feelings on those who truly insult you,, as opposed to castigating an entire political movement for the opinions of a few religious skeptics. Otherwise, you're no better than they are for saying all believers are delusional.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. That's one reason why

I love being a democrat. Our party is so diverse and full of people who are from different walks of life. I was watching the video of the DNC 2004 and one day I was watching and saw a Muslim girl! If you watch the RNC conventions it's mostly made up of one type of group of people. Older white men/women and not too many teens and young people. :shrug:

[Touchdown]

57. That's right. They even wear the same purple band-aids.

:evilgrin:

[BlackVelvet04]

65. I disagree

as I've heard it from many liberals. And my feelings are just fine, thank you.

[Eawyn]

70. Bill Maher's quote sounds an awful lot like some from our founding fathers

although I agree trashing Christians is a non-winning political approach, and that there are a majority who call themselves christian who are also wonderful people....and yet from my personal perspective, I applaud Bill Maher, and those who say like things. I see such huge swathes of destruction, emotional, physical....caused by religion. The big, conquest oriented religions (go out and convert someone) are the worst. And the wonderful people who are members of those religions always seem surprised by this, and really don't do much to stop these excesses.

[Felix Mala]

22. As they get further and further from anything resembling Christ's

ministry, they really start to get on my nerves, too. What would Jesus do? Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's! I'm getting so frustrated, I can't even go to church with my family anymore. I even suspect my liberal, Christian friends.

[DARE to HOPE]

25. The Church is larger and more rooted than this heretical movement...

...arrogantly calling itself "Christian"--the Dobsons and Falwells seize the word "evangelical" with the media's help, but the word really means love, NOT hate, "the Good News," literally, the Gospel (ie, John 3:16.)

Lutheran churches, in Colorado also, still have "evangelical" in their name, and "good news" in their preaching.

The thrill, the joy of the Christian life is that God is Love, God IS Love, and restores us to Himself, and spreads love out into the world through us. The letters of John, Jesus' teenage disciple, speak to this: "For love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." I John 4.

The problem in our country is that few know history, let alone Christian history. To think that the Mormon "church" has grown so powerful in American life and politics when the blueprint of this cult was purportedly found under a rock, complete, and anachronistic, in King James' English!

All this Dominionist, fundamentalist business does NOT represent the Church at large, but has grown due to money and population (and ignorance) just as the Mormons. Doesn't mean its TRUE, just POWERFUL. And IMHO the media and Bush money have everything to do with that power.

People have asked on DU "what is a Christian?" Well, not to bind anyone's conscience, but wouldn't the Creeds which held us all together for 1200 years be a place to start? And holding the teachings of Jesus to our hearts--anyone who reads the NT books of Paul SHOULD KNOW that our daily life is informed by the New Testament, NOT stuck in Leviticus!

And I'll tell you what really makes ME angry! The anti-choice movement and anti-gay movement DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT IS IN THEIR OWN BIBLES!! Right after the 10 Commandments, in Exodus 21, the list of laws specifically states the difference between losing an unborn child, and losing the woman, in the event of a fight. The woman's life is held as a human life lost, with the life's requirement for murder to be paid. The fetus is judged a potential life, for which money to the father is sufficient. And this from almost 4000 yrs ago.

I do believe, just as they invaded the press with Operation Monarch, the BFEE/CIA/whatever has invaded the fundie churches (paying assets like Falwell) to spread this errant form of the faith, manipulate and use it, just as Hitler sullied the churches in Germany in the thirties.

The fact that you are repulsed, that you reject the hate, is a sign that God is leading you. There are MANY churches all around you where the true faith is preached. I urge you to follow His guidance, and find one.

[me b zola]

50. That was a beautiful post. Thank you.

n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. Print out 4 of these

and call me in the morning. (Just kidding)




Actually, I print out batches of these and then I stick them on fundie cars and in the Left Behind section of my local book stores. I always makes me fell better afterwards.

[DARE to HOPE]

30. Hey, I love that poster! Thanks!

Do you have a website that sells prints? I don't think my printer is up to all the colors.

Also, who thinks Maher and Ventura are mature thinkers in the spiritual department anyway? I did love Maher's show on Gannon.

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Here's a link

to a file with 4 cards per sheet. They should print out pretty well on any cheap printer. The trick is the paper. If you use a high quality Inkjet paper, the pics will look better.

shttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/DoYouEverWonder/Misc/Jesus-George-stepped-up.jpg

(Delete the letter 's' at the front of the link)

[independentchristian]

27. Incorrect post

Bush is a "Moonie" and his administration is bought and paid for by Moon, and they are furthering "Moon's agenda" from the White House.

They are not "pushing a 'Christian agenda" through the White House, duh.

As for these "Christians" who run out and vote for Bush, they are just as dumb to the real issues as most people are.

They have been had, period, just like most of the Bush administration's supporters have been had.

After all, one of the points of Fascism is to "hijack" the main religion in a country and use it to your advantage to get votes, although you yourself, may not even care about the religion.

That's what the fascists in the White House have done, and excuse me, but I'm not stupid enough to believe they are doing "God's work," unless you consider Moon to be God.

[Vinnie From Indy]

28. Good Post!

You are EXACTLY right about fascists using the dominant religion in their country to achieve their goals. Hitler said that exact thing and wrapped himself in religious rhetoric on several occasions.

[EVDebs]

29. Founding Fathers were mostly Freemasons. Research the basics

of Freemasonry and you find that tolerance and the search for enlightenment with the help of TGAOTU are essential for a decent society to emerge.

George Washington, the Freemason, is an example to us all on this President's Day !

BTW, that obilisk of his is the "G" in a street design of D.C. with capital steps, WhiteHouse, Jefferson Memorial as the "square" and then
Lincoln Memorial at the west end being the top of the "compass", all showing the Masonic symbol compass/square/"G". The Capital building is in the East, where wisdom emerges, symbolically.

Dan Brown would be proud.

[ArkDem]

32. What was that old Nat King Cole song?

Ramblin' Rose?

[Democrat Dragon]

33. Like the saying goes:

"The Christian Right is Neither(Chistian or right)"

[pstans]

34. I totally agree

In America no one should ever impose their religous beliefs on you. Today, it is rampant and it turns a lot of people off. Here is an example.

After the tsunami, my wife and I were talking to my Christian/Republican mother-in-law. She said that this was a good chance for churches to get set up over there and convert people. When people see the help from Christians they will become Christian was her argument. I was so dumbstruck that I didn't respond. In a horrible event such as the tsunami, that is the last thing that should be thought about. I should have said, "You know, they have their own god to worship over there."

[FreedomAngel82]

36. I know how you feel

Sometimes it's hard to stay a part of a church when you know majority of the people are pro-Bush. In my age group all the kids there are pro-Bush like crazy. Yesterday in the class we had a guy who was subbing for our orignial teacher and he asked if Christians were persecuted today. One girl spoke up and said she thought so because of how if you're pro-life and against same-sex marriage and all that. I really wanted to speak up and tell her about being a democrat. About how people wish you were dead. About the Constiutition. I really wanted to piss off but I knew I'd just get really angry.

[DARE to HOPE]

43. A quiet question might be for you to bring up the war...

Lying about WMDs isn't Christian. Bombing a modern city half filled with children under 15 isn't Christian. Taking away the necessary hospital care for our returning young soldiers isn't the Christian thing to do either. And shouting at people who may think a little differently than you rather than looking for common ground isn't Christian.

Perhaps a little "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control" would be the way the class you are in wants to show itself to the world, with you there to suggest it.

[coloradodem2005]

48. The problem is...

...I mention to one person I knew from the church how the Iraq war is at least as bad if not worse than Kosovo. He launches into a whole "I'm going to have to disagree with you on that." I say that we helped Iraq in the 80's. He's like "Not really." There is no reasoning with these people.

[DARE to HOPE]

55. Yes, (chuckling) I can see what you mean...

...you know them by that zombie look in their eyes. :-)

Nevertheless, just the picture of you sitting under that Kerry tent, just the words that you offer in reasonableness rather than hate--God will use it all, even if you don't see the results.

Don't forget, you are in a defense contractor state, filled with folks whose bread and butter depend on their support for Bush. But, my brother-in-law also lives there, a good Christian DEMOCRAT who, though a businessman, really lives his faith. You are not alone. And you are not wrong either. It is hard to break up relationships that were important to you. I have family members, aunts and uncles in Ohio, who are just as clueless. I just keep praying for them, and for my country.

God bless.

[coloradodem2005]

59. What.

Will God use the part where the guy said to me "I didn't know you were on Kerry's side." and I said "Yeah, I know that probably makes me a sinner to you." Will God use that?

[DARE to HOPE]

66. Your confused friend was probably pretty shocked...

...just to see you, who he knows is a Christian like he is, sitting there under that tent with "Kerry" on it!

Your statement "Yeah, I know that probably makes me a sinner to you" is sort of a protective statement on your part, but also to give him a little room to recover. :-)

He now has to think about that "truth"--maybe NOT all Kerry supporters are heathen sinners after all.

If he was anyone about your age, or a closer, rather than a distant, friend, maybe you should check with him once in awhile. There have been rather a few Bush voters expressing buyers' remorse since this last "election." (See the DU post on the WSJ survey this weekend--only 34% now think Bush is doing a good job.)

[coloradodem2005]

71. He knows I am disaffected.

Looking for answers and unsure of what I believe.

[DemGa]

46. That's why I consider myself a gnostic thinker

[XemaSab]

49. There ARE liberal churches

I managed to find the most liberal church in my Freeper town... it's full of gays and other folks who got kicked out of the other churches in town. It's a service-oriented community focused on helping the poor. Free food, free clothes, social justice, and fellowship in Jesus' name.

Don't give up! It's better to be a member of a liberal church and teach the fundies what Jesus' life was all about than abandon the faith to the right wing.

[newportdadde]

53. It has been my experience in life..

That those who proclaim to be the closest to Christ are often the farthest from him in deeds.

[coloradodem2005]

54. It is also my experience that...

...those who decry what they perceive as someone elses shortcomings posess those same shortcomings. Which would go along with what you have said.

[Vinnie From Indy]

60. I'll give that a rousing "Amen". I share that experience of people

that profess to be "closer" to God than others. I always want them clapping so I know where there hands are at all times.

[NAO]

56. The Bloodguilty Churches - Bush/GOP Platform is anti-Christian, anti-Bible

Bloodguilty Churches - Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God By Katherine Yurica

http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

excerpt...

George W. Bush, his administration, the Republican controlled congress as well as the Republican Party itself, and most of the churches in America (including evangelical, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic), stand indicted—not by men—not by this writer—but by the very Holy Scriptures the religious-right and Mr. Bush profess to uphold. Weighed against the Bible, the Bush actions are not only morally corrupt—they are unchristian and unbiblical to the core. In this essay, the Bush agenda is weighed on the scale of God’s standards and it is found wanting.

Contents

In the Beginning
Invade Iraq or What's a Preemptive Strike?
Lies About the Threat of War
What Does the Bible Say About Preemptive Strikes?
The War Fairs
What Does the Bible Say About Profiting from War?
Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo
Does Mr. Bush Have the Moral High Ground?
Bush's Agenda for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid
What Does the Bible Say About How a Nation Must Treat the Poor and the Sick?
Mr. Bush's Immigration Plans
Deregulate Health and Safety and Environmental Laws
What Does the Bible Say About Rigging Devices?
Mr. Bush’s “Justice” Versus the Bible’s Justice
The Development of the Biblical Justice System
Be Careful Not to Commit Judicial Murders: The Texas Clemency Memos
Is Mr. Bush's Tort Reform Biblical?
The Bible's Criminal and Civil Code System
What Does the Bible Say About Abortions?
GOP Operatives as Slanderers and Hooligans, Scorner's and Ridiculers
What's Wrong With Today's Churches and 'Christians'?
Profile of the Man God Hates
End Notes

full article at

http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

[NAO]

58. Jesus Condems the Social Conservatives AND the Economic Conservatives

The "Christian Right" has got it WRONG on both the "values agenda" and the right wing economic/abolition of social programs agenda.

On Being a Christian Nation

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ
- Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)
- Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsitility?
- Seperating the Sheep from the Goats, Based on Domestic Social Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)
- Not My Responsibility? The Pharasee and the Levite Had Excuses, too (Luke 10:30-37)

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy?
- What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

**********************

Part I: Jesus vs. The Social Conservatives - Culture Wars in the Time of Christ

Let Him Who Is Without Sin Condemn the First Gay (John 8:3-11)

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Foreign Objects in the Eyes, or Jesus Teaches Us How (and to Whom) to Apply Biblical Laws (Matthew 7:1-3)

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Part II: Jesus vs. The Economic Conservatives - Did Jesus Teach Personal or Social Responsitility?

Seperating the Sheep from the Goats, Based on Domestic Social Policy - Subsistence Programs (Matthew 25:31-46)

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Not My Responsibility? The Priest and the Levite Did'nt Think So, Either (Luke 10:30-37)

In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

Part III: Putting Parts I and II Together - On Being a Christian Nation

What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply to Nations and to Government Policy? What Parts of the Bible Should we Apply only to Individuals?

The Religious Right frequently emphasizes that God will Judge us "as a Nation". They combine this notion with their condemnation of certian behaviors of individuals, and this is the basis of the "culture wars". They rally for the government to pass laws that uphold Biblical standards. They want to outlaw sodomy, and ban gay marrige. Thus, they maintain that as Christians, we should not only observe God's commandments, but enact them as govermental legislation.

Curiously, when passages such as Matthew 25:31-46 are discussed, they typically quickly assert that charity - helping the poor, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, and so forth, should be left to individuals and to the churches. They do not agree that these programs should be on the national agenda, nor do they beleive that welfare and other subsistence programs are properly the duty of the federal government.

Well, there you go. Those passages are so incredibly obvious, it boggles the mind how Christians can miss them so completely.

That they ALSO miss the point of the passage from Matthew 25 (Jesus vs. the Economic Conservatives) too is even more baffling!

And as if that were not enough - they are working to have the values agenda (which is nothing more than the condemning of others based on the Laws of Moses) built into the structure of government...but when you talk about building the helping of the poor, the feeding of the sick into the structure of government, they immediately launch into right wing talking points about how THAT is not the proper role of government, but should be left to private individuals and charities.

Now the words of Jesus quoted above indicate, beyond any doubt, that the exact opposite is correct in both cases. Adherence to the Laws of Moses SHOULD be left to private individuals and at most, the churches. We have been commanded by Jesus NOT to engage in the moral condemnation of others. Conversely, we have been commanded to feed, clothe and shelter those in need.

If Christians REALLY want a Christian nation, they should vote for a ban on condemning of sinners (unless of course you are 100% sin free, in which case feel free to blast them) AND they should provide a MANDATE for social programs.

[SharonAnn]

62. Thank you for the excellent summary. These are the passages I

turn to time again and am puzzled why the "Christian Right" isn't paying attention to the words of Christ?

Should they perhaps call themselves the "Old Testamentarians"?

[mwb970]

68. They do take the "Christ" out of "Christianity", don't they? n/t

[chalky]

83. Matthew 23, baby.

In it's entirety.

23:27 "How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look fine on the outside but are full of bones and decaying corpses on the inside.

23:28 "In the same way, on the outside you appear good to everybody, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and sins."

...

23:33 "You snakes and children of snakes! How do you expect to escape from being condemned to hell?

23:34 "And so I tell you that I will send you prophets and wise men and teachers; you will kill some of them, crucify others, and whip others in the synagogues and chase them from town to town.

23:35 "As a result, the punishment for the murder of all innocent people will fall on you, from the murder of innocent Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the Temple and the altar.

23:36 "I tell you indeed: the punishment for all these murders will fall on the people of this day!

23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone the messengers God has sent you! How many times I wanted to put my arms around all your people, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not let me!

23:38 "And so your Temple will be abandoned and empty.

23:39 "From now on, I tell you, you will never see me again until you say, 'God bless him who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

I've decided, I'm having a t-shirt made with "MATT 23: Read it and weep." on the front.
Because THIS is what rings out in my head whenever I hear a neocon fundie rant about SpongeBob.

[Eawyn]

67. One of my friends is a liberal, democrat, southern Baptist

was approached by a neighbor wanting to start a bible study. This person told him that in order to be a true Christian, you had to vote Republican.

[DARE to HOPE]

73. Hope he laughed in his face...

...and asked for a scripture reference with "Republican" in it!

[Eawyn]

74. he was really offended by that...he really hates the Republican party!! :-

[bobbieinok]

76. a black female pentecostal democrat in 2000 (an acquaintance)

reported to the local party get-together that one of the people she talked to doing canvassing for Gore pointed to a republican sign in the window.......she reported she told him "That's all right, sir. Don't worry. God loves republicans too."

[mzmolly]

79. LOL

:)

[kitkat65]

80. I honestly don't see how the right wingers vision of Christianity within

American government is any different than the Taliban

[jojo54]

81. Personally I don't see how religion & politics go together

I mean, there is such a thing as separation of church and state. And since when does the bible say you should campaign for one person or the other? This crap from the religious right makes me sick. How dare they try to infringe on MY beliefs, whatever they may be?

[Erika]

82. My Lutheran friend/co-worker

is on the regional board of directors for the Lutheran churches. He is totally against pre-emptive war strikes, as a violation of Christ's Golden Rule, and he is totally against Bush's cuts for funds to the needy.

[Sugarbleus]

84. I feel your pain Colorado....

Been there, done that.....I'm over it now.

If I meet a former "church" friend on the street and we strike up a "normal" conversation I can be civilized.......BUT if they start with the religious dogma I react.

As much as I miss the idea of a Loving God/higher power/Christ, I'm pretty much disgusted with Christianity at this point in time--haven't given up entirely on the concept of God yet but... I actually think Christians have all been duped. It's been a sickening, sinking feeling coming to terms with this idea, but the more I look the less validity I see. It's all been a huge man made ruse.

Maybe I'll feel differently in the future...

[mainer]

85. be sure to differentiate between evangelicals and fundamentalists!

Evangelicals believe in spreading the word of god, but they're not necessarily nasty about it.

The latter are.

[charles_nys]

87. This site is a MUST read ...

I hope everyone on this board reads this site and please pass it around to others too.


http://www.elroy.net/ehr/focus.html

[chalky]

89. There's a phrase for this kind of behavior--it's called "gang membership"

From the link:
"Nonetheless, our young man goes to all the right meeting and prays all the right words and wears all the right clothes, and he quickly becomes accepted as a part of the 'family.'"

The fact that American Christianity is now indistinguishable from the Crips and the Bloods should tell you in what direction we're headed.