Do you support the concept of Universal Conscription (civil and military)?

[Clarkie1]

I've been reading Thom Hartmann's, "What Would Jefferson Do?"

Jefferson wrote,

"It is more a subject of joy that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies...but it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free State."

Hartmann goes on to support the idea of "a universal draft in the United States, with a strong public service option for those men and women who don't want to go into the military."

If those sent to Iraq were drawn equally from all walks of life and socioeconomic classes, I doubt we would so easily haved sent them there.

The community service and "peace corp" type option would also expose all young people to those from other perspectives, walks of life, and socioeconomic classes. It would help create a national community, and perhaps even a world community.

[Career Prole]

1. Sounds logical on its face but never underestimate the ability

of the socially privileged to shirk any duty which would require any sort of sacrifice on their part.
Therefore I must vote no.

[lojasmo]

2. Anarchist need to be exempted. EOM

[Igel]

3. I agree with Jefferson, but don't think he'd vote either yes or no.

He didn't say "the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soliderfor a limited time."

Think Switzerland or Israel.

[Kinkistyle]

4. What if I win a "Trip Around the World"

and I wanted to take 3 or 4 months off from Universal Conscription to do it. Should I just stay out of the country permanently or risk jail time when I got back? :eyes:

[Clarkie1]

9. Conscription means just that - conscription

A requirement that all citizens serve their country though democratically agreed upon means.

So, in that case, you should put your country before yourself and do your duty.

[mike_c]

5. the citizen soldiers Jefferson referred to were NOT...

...instruments of a corrupt foreign policy, nor were they a professional warrior class. They were mostly militiamen serving the common defense when necessary, and otherwise making a civilian living, and their officers were mostly landowners and other assorted "gentlemen" who were likewise part-time soldiers. I think Jefferson would be horrified by what our military has become-- they are precisely the "regular army" he said that citizens must oppose.

[Clarkie1]

7. I agree!

It has become precisely what Jefferson worried about in the absence of universal participation in the army.

[mike_c]

10. well, maybe that's true, but the point I was trying to make...

...was that universal participation in OUR military would be a bad thing, not only from my perspective but from Jefferson's as well, and that his statement should not be construed as an argument in favor of universal conscription unless it is also taken as an argument for dismantling our military, and replacing it with citizen militias whose only purpose is to serve the common defense-- NOT to fight wars abroad, serve as instruments of foreign policy, and so on.

[punpirate]

19. The change in the draft...

... came about after a war that was clearly fueled in large part by that very draft. Our role in Vietnam might have been very different had a volunteer army been in place (it's also worth noting that the post-WWII period is the first time in the country's history where a draft was in place during peacetime).

If one looks at Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, it's very clear that a standing army was to be controlled and limited: " To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;..." It's interesting that this clause has never been repealed, and yet, we've managed to create a standing army of large proportion for decades, largely by ignoring that clause.

There's much more emphasis on militia in that section of the Constitution, which is more consistent with Jefferson's views. Jefferson actually saw a permanent standing army as a great temptation of presidents to use it unwisely and offensively; this view was concurred in by George Washington. Jefferson certainly believed that all should serve equally (when the need to serve arose), but that doesn't mean he would have approved of the national security state the US has become.

[LdyGuique]

6. I'd don't think Jefferson visualized "wars on foreign soil"

when he was discussing universal conscription. He was visualizing serving one's country WITHIN one's country.

The draft was instituted in WWII and continued through the Korean War and then onto the VietNam war.

2.59 million served in Nam -- and deployment rose as high as 500,000 during the later years. Towards the end of Nam due to public pressure, the draft was changed to a lottery, based on birthdate.

As one can see by looking at who served and who didn't -- it's obvious that many more Republicans than Democrats managed to avoid being sent to Nam (expanded from a previous thread on DU)

Republicans

* George H.W. Bush Decorated WWII pilot
* Bob Dole Purple Heart WWII
* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby (Cheney’s Chief of Staff) - did not serve
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” He who attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism. Max lost 3 limbs during his tour of duty.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon! Kyl: did not serve
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

* George W. Bush: he failed to complete his six-year National Guard got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.
* Andrew “Andy” Card (Chief of Staff to Pres) - did not serve
* Ken Rove - did not serve
* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. “Knee problem,” although continued in NFL for 8 years.
* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits & Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’)
* David Limbaugh - did not serve
* Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* John Wayne: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Jeff Gannon. Ex-Marine. He served alright. $200 and hour or $1,200 a weekend.
* Frank Gaffney - did not serve
* Rep. Joseph “Joe” Scarborough (R-FL) - never served
* Gary Bauer (ouramericanvalues.org) - never served
* John Bolton - did not serve
* Rev. Jerry Falwell – did not serve
* Dr. Marion “Pat” Robertson - did not serve
* Brit Hume - Did not serve

Democrats

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Lost three limbs.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars and Soldier’s Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.
* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
* Wesley K. Clark - 4-Star General

[Clarkie1]

8. This is precisely the kind of outrage that would have sickened Jefferson.

He referred to the armies of most of the world being made up of "desperate paupers."

That's why he believed EVERYONE should serve.

[mike_c]

11. I'm beginning to wonder whether we're talking about the same...

...thing. Jefferson did not believe that "everyone should serve" in an imperialist army. He believed the everyone's service was necessary to maintain vigilence against the creation of such an institution. I do not think he would approve of universal service in the U.S. military as it's currently constituted and with the role it presently plays in national affairs.

[Clarkie1]

16. Do you think Jefferson would prefer a volunteer army

comprised of an abundance of those at the lower socioeconomic levels of society, many who have no other options in life?

You have to look at Jefferson's ideals in the context of today's realities. The best way to guard against the kind of army he feared is participation from all levels of society.

And, what I am advocating here is a year or two of service which could be military service, but could also be some form of community or "peace corps" type service.

[mike_c]

20. that's just it-- Jefferson's ideals do not fit the context of today's...

...realities, and WE are in many ways the hegemonists that Jefferson fought against. You can't have Jeffersonian approval of universal service without recasting that service into the model that he had in mind. I do NOT think Jefferson would advocate universal service in the U.S. military. Personally, I think Jefferson would more likely advocate universal service in opposition to the U.S. military, kinda like, well, jihad.

[leanin_green]

12. When I was in Europe during a Nato exercise in '79. . .

we were in Germany. I met a lot of soldiers from other countries that require a two year stint in either the military or some other kind of national service sometime before the age of thirty. This wasn't conscription but an obligation to serve. I thought that was a good idea.

[cliss]

13. It sounds good. But, trust me.

I was reading a book by Robert Kiyosaki and he wrote, "The Rich will always find a way".

They always find ways to make sure they get out of obligations, and everybody else has to do theirs.

They will send their kids to Switzerland, to Madagascar to do some archaeology digging, or they will heavily bribe the recruiting officers.

That's the way they are.

[welshTerrier2]

14. not with a corrupt government

if we could ever empower a government that was truly of the people, by the people and for the people, then perhaps universal conscription (civil and military) could be considered ... perhaps asking every citizen to "give something back" would make some sense ...

unfortunately, all conscription would do today would be to provide free labor to the military-industrial complex ... today's government only serves its corporate masters and that's all conscripted citizens would be required to do ...

so, in today's America, in fact in the America of say the last 50 years or more, no, i do not support any form of conscription ...

[DaveinMD]

15. I do

it would make our politicians more likely to think twice about going to war if the ruling class actually had to make some sacrifice.

[orleans]

17. i don't know. but i don't think so.

if we were interested in exposing kids to all walks of life, etc., let's do something about it through the public school system. sometimes they actually do--as far as the clubs kids can join.

and let's teach them some of these wonderful things while they are young--at home and in school.

how do you make someone care?
how do you force someone to be nice?

if people don't want to be there or doing what they are doing then how effective is it in the long run? what is the positive impact it has on those who were "forced" into it?

some people want to be teachers or firefighters. i don't think i'd want my child being taught by someone who was forced into teaching or i wouldn't want to *have* to be rescued from a fire by someone who really didn't want to be doing their job.

sorry for the ramble. in essence--i don't think conscription is a smart idea.

[union_maid]

18. No. I'm a big fan of personal freedom

I remember when there was a draft. It wasn't all that hard to avoid fighting in the war du jour. Beating the draft by enlisting in a safer branch of the service was an excellent solution. But tearing people away from their lives for years at a time, against their will...that never seemed like a thing you'd want in what's supposed to be a free country. A situation like WWII might well be different and according to my parents' generation, most wanted to go anyway, but not for anything that's come after that.

[Carolab]

21. I think military service should all be voluntary.

And I think the government should honor its promises for benefits.