Wes and Dennis

[CarolNYC]

A couple of recent threads got me thinking about this.

Long ago, when I hardly knew who Gen Clark was and had no idea, not being aware of the draft, that there was a possibility of him running, I decided Dennis Kucinich was the candidate that best fit what I was looking for...but he didn't seem able to win and I deemed it vital that we get Bush out of the White House.

When I found out about the draft, I decided to check into the General, who had intrigued me in an interview he did with salon.com before the start of the Iraq War. As I learned more about Clark, I discovered that not only did he seem to have a better chance of winning, but he was really a good, good man. The more I learned about him, the more I respected and admired him. Eventually, I fell hook, line and sinker and, although I still do love Dennis, I'm a Clarkie all the way now.

I know I am not the only Kucinich-turned-Clark supporter. I knew others. And, as I've said elsewhere, those I worked with in the Clark campaign who attended, as representatives of the General, events where supporters of other candidates were present said that Kucinich supporters were by far the most welcoming of all the other candidates' supporters, some of whom were downright hostile.

I always just assumed, from my experiences in the real (non-cyber) world, that although on the surface it would seem unlikely, when you looked deeper, there was a real affinity between Wes and Dennis supporters.

Yet, there are some posts on this forum that would make you believe that Kucinich supporters and Clark supporters are on totally opposing and totally irreconcilable ends of the spectrum.

So, finally, my question is, are there any others here who were originally supporters of Dennis, who turned to Clark...or vice versa...or any who actually, like me, think the world of both men?

Thanks.

[Fovea]

1. Both men

are articulate, curious and engaged, deeply care about the well being of Americans and the world at large.

Both have done a lot of soul searching on the role of the military in the shaping of policy.

In short the both are radically different from George W. Bush.
And for that matter, Joe Sixpack, born again NASCAR aficionado and occaisional voter.

That is why we need them either or both near the reins of power.
Because Joe and George both represent dystopic America, ignorant, willful, and bent on destruction.

[Clark2008]

2. I love Denny!!!

He is also a true inspiration and is the epitime of what the Republicans think is important: he's a self-made man, as is Wes.
It's funny that Republicans, neo-cons, included, put so much stock in raising oneself up from his/her bootstraps, yet all of their leaders have been given everything and never had to do that.

[stellanoir]

3. I'd watched the General

since he served in Kosovo. i always thought back then. . .woh. . .a general with a mind and a soul. . .who'd of thunk it possible?

Of course I was fundamentally more spiritually aligned with Dennis, but eternally respected Clark for his infinite knowledge of history and diplomacy. They were both equally though diversely my favorite candidates and seemed to be far less beholdened to the rampant corporate interests. Deaniacs please don't roast me, I know he wasn't either.

These guys just really impressed me, though Dean did as well in a very different way.

Dennis was the only candidate who tried to expose the voting machine problems by posting the Diebold memos on his Congressional web site, which at the time, created a temporary sea change in regards to that issue.

For that I'll forever admire him.

I'll also admire the General for his long time service to our country and for his unbelievable intelligence.

They're both phenomenal men who I hope will be able to continue to participate in the public discourse.

Silly me.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[kk897]

5. I voted Kucinich in the primary...

...but I think Clark was the only candidate who was a serious threat to Bush (which is why the complicit media didn't really cover his candidacy much--how's that for a totally unfounded theory!).

What I really like about both men is that they seem more genuine than most of the politicians you see. Possibly, for Clark, this is because he's NOT a politician, but a leader. For Kucinich, perhaps this is because he sees no reason to change who he is. I really love it when people speak their minds instead of what they calculate will get them the most votes or obfuscate the issues the most.

[Clarkie1]

6. Yes, you are right.

They are both more genuine than the rest...not "typical politicians."

Of course, that doesn't mean they agree on everything. Dennis wanted to pull out of Iraq a year ago after we'd gotten ourselves committed, something Clark would never support. Still, I can respect Dennis' point of view and the fact he doesn't put his finger to the wind like most politicians. Dennis simply says what he believes, and that's exactly what attracted me to Clark.

I am sure that Dennis and Wes could find agreement on more issues than disagreement. And probably more respect for each other since they both are the type that speak their minds regardless.

I remember distincly during one of the early debates Dennis was expressing his view we should withdraw from Iraq immediately. The camera cut away to a view of Clark momentarily. The look on Clark's face had a slight smile of what I took to be approval...he was looking directly at Dennis. I think Clark was glad there was someone expressing Dennis' point of view on the stage there, even if he did not entirely agree.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
-Wes Clark

[CarolNYC]

7. Iraq

Yeah, Dennis calls for us to immediately pull out of Iraq and, at one time, I would have agreed with him that this was the right thing to do...but I've come to think differently on this and I do now agree with Wes that we can't do that. Yet I bet that they could have a fine, very respectful discussion about the pros and cons of the situation, even if they didn't agree.

I remember, at the end of a long, kind of tough week for Gen Clark shortly after he got into the race, I think, there was a debate of some sort on a Friday night that most of the candidates had agreed to attend. As it was, because of flight cancellations or something of the sort, only Dennis, Al Sharpton and the General made it, if I'm remembering correctly. It was supposed to be covered by C-Span but I guess because so few candidates were able to make it, they never did air it. It was covered by CSpan radio, though, and I remember listening to it and discussing it with other Clarkies online. It was such a nice, respectful debate and all three seemed to really like each other. It was one of my favorite events of the campaign and just a nice. peaceful end to a turbulent week.

I do think that Dennis and Wes could work together and I hope they both stay out there, loud and visible. We do need them both.

[Donna Zen]

11. I remember that Carol

It was in SC and monitored by public radio. It was a great discussion and Clark, Kucinich and Rangel were actually asked about their ideas on a wide range of issues. They also talked back and forth. No one else made it because of bad weather.

That was right when the General was losing his voice.

Both Dennis and Wes are honest, extremely honest people. (others may be as well--but, these two raise it to a new level) You don't have to always agree if you are willing to discuss your difference. Also, Dennis and Wes are both spiritual people. They are so spiritual that they never wear it on their sleeves. It is just there.

Authentic.

I never expect to agree with every issue and every solution someone puts forward, I just want the truth.

I sent money to Dennis and have written to him on more than one occasion.

[genius]

14. All the AD's across CA are passing resolutions for immed withdrawal

So Dennis's position is more consistent with what the Democrats in the largest state feel.

[Clarkie1]

19. In the spirit of this thread, I'm going to respond to your post

since I'm a native Californian, a life-long democrat, a teacher, and a union member.

I don't think that it is fair to say that a majority of registered democrats in this state feel that way. Certainly the majority of the dems I come in contact every day feel we have obligations in Iraq and can't just cut and run tomorrow.

I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think so.

[serryjw]

20. We went into Iraq with lies

when will we we able to leave...after another 10,000 kids are killed.....People are now saying we will be there for years......This is another VietNam......We will never bring democracy & peace the country.

[CarolNYC]

8. thanks for the replies

Yep, Wes and Dennis are both self made men who speak their minds.

I remember when Dennis appeared on some show (can't remember which now) and spoke of the tough times he experienced growing up, many Clarkies were quite impressed with how bravely Dennis spoke of those times and how well he'd pulled through and suceeded in making something of himself.

I take it you guys have seen that website that showed the candidates houses. I do so love that Dennis lives in that little blue house. He truly is a man of the people.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. I'm a Clarkie through and through

but I was very proud to support Dennis in our state's caucus, and on through to the State Convention. Voting for Clark was not an option at that point, but I still wanted my vote to actually mean something, as opposed to simply ratifying Kerry's nomination, which he had already won by then.

I started going to the Kucinich meetups and events, and was able to see him several times when he was here in Colorado. I was very impressed with the caliber of most of his supporters, and most of them seemed very open minded towards me and my Clarkiness.

We did manage to end up with 30% at the State Convention, and we won 15 delegates for Dennis, which I believe was a record for any state.

A good number of our local Clarkies ended up supporting Dennis, including one who had come over to Clark from Kucinich in the first place.

Of course, Boulder is full of looney lefties anyway, and the Boulder Clarkies really weren't any different than any other group of Boulder Democrats.

Nice thread, thank you. :hi:

[CarolNYC]

29. Well, it WAS a nice thread....

Believe me or not, I started this thread and posted what I did in all sincerity. I was curious and asked a question and I thank those who answered sincerely.

Sorry if it upsets some of you that there might actually be folks who can appreciate both these men. Maybe division and exclusion works better for you guys. That is too bad.

Whatever, I will still always love Dennis.

[Crunchy Frog]

37. I guess that's one of the things

you have to learn to expect here when starting a positive thread about Clark. There are some people who get offended at the mere mention of his name, and will try to turn a positive thread into a flame thread. There are also people who don't like the idea of any kind of peace between camps. I appreciate your efforts anyway.

[CarolNYC]

39. Thanks.

At least some people responded in the spirit in which the thread was started, for which I am grateful, so it wasn't a total washout.

Looking at some of the threads from today, though, it seems I've unwittingly put two of the people whose mere mention gets people here all in a frazzle, and in the title no less.

As a Clarkie who likes and admires Dennis, does that mean I'm twice reviled...or maybe three times? First the people who can't stand any mention of Clark or the fact that his supporters exist. Second, those who can't stand any mention of Dennis or the fact that people still like and admire him. And third, the Kucinich supporters who can't stand that a Clarkie would admit to liking and admiring Dennis also??

At least my fellow Clarkies won't jump ugly on me or cast me out for liking Dennis..............will they??

[Crunchy Frog]

40. I don't think your fellow Clarkies will revile you

for liking Dennis. In general, I've found Clarkies to be more tolerant and openminded than most. Maybe it's because Clark attracted supporters from accross a wider range of the political spectrum than most candidates did. That sort of forces people to be more accepting. The other reason is that alot of the more liberal Clarkies had to overcome some prejudices and preconceptions of their own, and in so doing, had to become more openminded and accepting.

At any rate, alot of Clarkies like and admire Dennis, and even voted for him like I did, so I don't think you'll be cast out for it.

Please also remember that DU is not an accurate reflection of the real world. If it was, I would have given up and switched to the Green party a long time ago.

[CarolNYC]

41. Thanks

I think you're right about Clark supporters and DU and the real world.

It is a bit disheartening though to come here and find out that people in "my" party can be at least as intolerant and close-minded and inflexible and unwilling to hear anyone's views that don't match theirs as anyone on the "other side". :(

[kevsand]

10. Whenever I took one of those tests

that matched one's position on the issues with those of the candidates, I always came up closest to Kucinich or Nader.

I had been interested in Dean early on, but had reserved judgment for reasons I can't fully explain even now.

I had been watching Clark on CNN, mostly with Aaron Brown, since well before the invasion of Iraq. He was the only talking head whose opinion I trusted, because he was the only one who didn't seem to have a bias or an agenda.

When he started hinting that he might run, I put every other candidate on hold and crossed my fingers. ("Oh please, oh please, oh please...")

I officially came into the fold shortly before he announced in Little Rock.

I still think that Kucinich and Clark were easily the two bravest candidates of the field. Dennis will always have my respect and my attention for voting against the war. But once the General publicly said yes, I have been his to command.

[Sparkly]

12. Definitely

I always loved Dennis' progressive idealism and social conscience. I also loved Dean's honest, outspoken stance from the moment he stepped into the national spotlight.

And then my husband said, "You know, General Wesley Clark -- he might run!" I wrote a letter for the draft. And once I saw him speak at a townhall forum, there was no going back.

Not to take anything away from other Democrats -- we have such a wealth of great leaders and I applaud them -- but I think Clark is one in a generation, and perfectly poised to upset decades of rightwing stereotyping and disinformation. He's an amazing combination of intellect, heart, conscience, leadership, courage, discipline, and commitment.

I hope with all my heart he runs again.

[genius]

13. Dennis is better informed on dep uran and on the Sch of the Americas

He's opposed to both. I think Clark could make a good Vice President for Dennis but he will need to understand the dangers of depleted uranium before I will consider backing him. None of my Greens who backed Dennis will vote for Clark in the general election because of the Butcher of the Balkans thing.

[Donna Zen]

16. Dennis is definately opposed to DU and SOA

This is true. Nevertheless, who could actually go to the Pentagon and stop them? Hmmm? Clark said he would shut down SOA today if the old practices were found to be going on. About DU, if the evidence becomes scientifically overwhelming, which is shows signs of doing, again, who could use the bully-pulpit to the greatest effect.

As for the Butcher crap. Yes crap. Wellstone pushed for that move because he knew what was going on. The thing that bites my butt about that, is that the very people who yell out those names, would be pointing fingers just as they are doing about Rawanda if we had let Milosevic kill another 400,000 people. Milosevic said before the war, and on record at the Hague that the Kosovar Albanians were not humans. They need to stop, think, and do some actual reading by people who were on the ground. You can't make progress unless your moving forward.

Yep.

I'm not one of your California Greens, I'm a Serbian American.

[dogman]

18. I doubt that.

Clark was instrumental in reforming the SOA which no longer exists. Clark's hobby is physics and I think he has a good understanding of DU. You might mean that Dennis agrees with your view and therefore you think he's better informed. Clark has stated that if the problems related to DU are proven he would take a stand against it. He has also said if there is evidence that the revised SOA is guilty of it's former deeds he would close it down. He is not closed minded on these subjects but he is not convinced by the evidence he has seen. There are a lot of "scientific" facts on the internet and in books that are not really scientific but anecdotal evidence and the desire to believe them convince many of us, who don't have enough knowledge to determine the truth, to accept them as fact. I have noted before that well known ecological activists support Clark. Gaylord Nelson, one of the founders of Earth Day, was a Clark supporter in '04. The Audubon Society gave Clark an award for protecting a bird species from construction on a military base. Many Greens in the last election supported Nader and were not a factor, other than assuring four more years of B$$$. If they would prefer the genocide of Milosevic they have real mental problems anyway. I really wouldn't want the support of them for Clark or Kucinich.

[genius]

21. Your info on the School of the Americas is not correct.

If you want the real scoop, I suggest you contact Blaise Bonpane of the Office of the Americas, an organization founded to fight the School of the Americas, for up to date information on this travesty. The School of the Americas still exists. Clark gave a speech there a while back.

[genius]

22. No one who has posted so far is anyone I recognize as a Kucinich supporter

And I've been on this borad for a long time. You might want to check with the people in the Kucinich forum. I think you'll get different responses.

[Padme Amidala]

23. You are right. Not one of these has previously shown support for Dennis.

It's sort of like Republicans for Kerry or Democrats for Bush. It's an interesting tactic. I think people are wise to this one though.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. Are you trying to tell me that I didn't vote for Dennis

in my state caucus?

I'm sorry but there seems to be an awful lot of hostility here of a nature that I did not encounter among the Kucinich supporters that I encountered out here. Of course, maybe they were just pretending to be nice to me because they cynically wanted me for my vote while secretly despising me.

Well at any rate, I think I find the "how dare you like my candidate!" attitude rather charming.

[dogman]

28. It is correct.

http://www.ciponline.org/facts/soa.htm
The new name is Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation
(Former School of the Americas) Fort Benning, Georgia.
You choose Blaise Bonpane, I choose Wes Clark. As far as I know Dennis is still a Democrat. If he chooses to become a Green Party member he will only become a shadow of Nader, that would be a real shame.

[CarolNYC]

30. genius, thanks,

for your thoughts on the matter. I hope that you one day have the chance to meet General Clark and confront him with your concerns about the SOA. If you do get the opportunity, I hope you take advantage of it.

[CarolNYC]

34. SOA

BTW, here’s an interesting page with some further info about the SOA and Gen Clark, in case you’re interested in reading (I fully understand you may not be):
http://mediaprima.com/clark04/clark_and_soa.html

And here’s Gen Clark’s statement on the SOA:
http://clark04.com/issues/soa/

Thanks for reading.

[dogman]

15. Both men are great Democrats.

They are probably closer in there domestic policy. I have read Dennis' personal conflicts in foreign policy and am more inclined to agree with Clark on these matters. I would prefer to live in the world Dennis envisions but I don't think the rest of the world is there yet. I just feel Clark has a more realistic grasp of the world situation. I feel both men sincerely want peace and what is best for this country.Since Clark had withdrawn, if I had not been a Clark delegate, I would have voted for Dennis in the Primary based on principle.

[pauliedee]

17. Both are good men

Both are good men, especially Clark who would be a great SOS or SOD or VP. But Kerry is the best candidate to finish the job started in 2004. He has the domestic and economic policy experience that Clark lacks. I'm sure he'd utilize Clark for a cabinet position.

[Gemini Cat]

25. That was my dream in '04 Clark/Kucinich.

Since that didn't happen, I hope to see it in '08.

[The Traveler]

26. Dennis, Wes, and Howard

are all a lot closer in viewpoint than is generally recognized. There are also significant differences which in my view lead to a creative tension productive of good policy. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you want a strong America 25 years from now, throw these guys into an office with a research staff and lock them in together for a few weeks. They'll figure out how to get us there.

[CarolNYC]

31. Oh, I like that...

I wish we could do it.

[JNelson6563]

27. Keepin' it fresh

I've noticed a new approach to keeping certain names out there instead of letting them slip into the dust bin of history. I admire the creativity and much prefer the current approach to the tiresome crushy threads that made us all look like morons.

Appreciating the creative efforts--

Julie

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Yes, it's all a diabolical conspiracy.

And we all take our marching orders directly from the General.:evilgrin:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. TheTolstoy Ticket ! "War and Peace"

[LWolf]

33. No.

I am an original supporter of Dennis, and Clark never entered the equation at all. I ignored him until he declared his candidacy, and looked at him briefly. He wasn't as bad as I expected him to be; I found things to like, but not enough to put him in the same category as DK as my candidate of choice.

I don't think poorly of Clark, but I don't think the world of him, either.

[goodhue]

35. Not me.

I started with Dennis and stayed with him all the way to Boston.
Dennis outlasted Clark if I recall.

I'd would have a hard time supporting a former military general who supports the school of the americas as a presidential candidate, but if he were our nominee I would certainly get on board.

[faithfulcitizen]

38. Both very pasionate, sincere, and stand up for what they believe

although I liked Kucinich, I didn't didn't agree with many of his positions and didn't see him as a real contender. jmo...:)