College Republicans mark Professors' doors with Red Star

[CatholicEdHead]

I heard this early on the Ed Schultz show today. At Santa Rosa Junior College, one of the College Republicans thought it would be a good think to mark all "leftist" professors' doors with a Red Star, in an effort to mark them as Communists in disguise.

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050302/NEWS/503020303/1033/NEWS01

"Wednesday, March 2, 2005

By GUY KOVNER
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Santa Rosa Junior College's oak-studded campus is aflame with controversy triggered by the anonymous posting of red stars and a reference to communist indoctrination on 10 faculty office doors.

Instructors quickly saw the action as a threat to academic freedom, but the student who claimed credit for the protest said it was about left-leaning bias in the lecture hall.

The stars, which unnerved some instructors, were accompanied by a copy of a state Education Code section prohibiting the teaching of communism with the "intent to indoctrinate" students.

"It makes me a little anxious," philosophy instructor Michael Aparicio said.

Ed Buckley, the college's vice president of academic affairs, weighed in with a defense of academic freedom, saying in an e-mail to SRJC faculty that it includes teaching "difficult and controversial material."

But political science major Molly McPherson of Rohnert Park said she had only intended to start a discussion about the personal politics of SRJC humanities instructors by posting the stars.
..............................."

[applegrove]

1. A fun lovin bunch who 'bait' to pass the time.

[EVDebs]

287. "I have in my hand a list of 350...", after a few drinks "I have in my

hand a list of 50.." McCarthyist tactics from the GOPs College Breeding Program ? Mon dieu !

This Rovian is so indoctrinated in the mental marinade of conservative claptrap she forgot to consider the 'blowback' of being exposed.

Elitist neocons just can't help themselves. Let's hope upon graduation she locates Ann Coulter and they form their own Operation Mockingbird funded propaganda organization ! But hopefully they'll get off the corporate media welfare program they seem to gravitate to.

[Mugsy]

289. Are we the only ones that see this in its TRUE context? Nazism.

I was very surprised in reading the story that there is no mention of when the Nazi's started putting the Star of David and scrawling "Jude" in the windows of shops owed by Jews, forcing them to wear the stars on their clothing in public to make them more readably identifiable.

I thought FOR SURE the German instructor would have noted the creepy parallel, but the only reference in the story to any "movement" was "McCarthy-ism".

This only highlights the growing Nationalist fascism taking hold in this country.

[illini]

399. No doubt it is fascist in its intent to intimidate.

I only fear it will get worse before it gets better.

[Liberty Belle]

2. The school ought to suspend the student who did this.

It's clearly an intimidation tactic that ought not to be allowed in a public school.

[purduejake]

13. This is intimidation?

What if I slapped rainbow stickers on the doors of a professor because I was offended by his views in class? No damage was done. If I saw that, I would take the red star and throw it in the recycling bin. It's a freedom of expression, and I will always defend freedom of speech on campus. How many of you would want to suspend students for posting signs of Bush and Hitler together?

[ender]

24. how about i stick a yellow star...

on all the jewish professor's doors.

same shit, different color.

[purduejake]

31. Jews are a protected class in that case.

Right wing fundies and liberal professors are not.

[mondo joe]

67. Then you agree it would be an act of intimidation.

Simply against people not in a protected class.

[purduejake]

173. Uh, sure.

But intimidation is legal and liberals do it, too. There is nothing wrong with intimidation when it is used for the right cause.

[The Backlash Cometh]

260. Intimidation is legal? Are you serious? Death threats are intimidating

tactics. Do you believe they are free speech too? When does intimidation cross the line and become harassment, which is a crime? When is it in our interest to stop these abuses because it will encourage the other side to ratchet up a retaliating response? You know, that's how Richard Clarke recommended dealing with enemies of the state. You attack those who attack you. Don't you see where this is going? Especially since those professors were probably not even communist. Unless you allow the right-wing nuts to decide who is communist, and who is not. Heck, using their definition, the fact that right-wing nuts are protecting social security says they have a little communism in them too.

[purduejake]

350. Yes, certain forms of intimidation are legal.

It is a valid tool used by law enforcement (often over-used), by prosecutors, people who threaten to sue others, people who tailgate, people who get together and protest, etc. All of those are intimidation tactics and they are "seriously" legal.

Of course threats of physical violence or ILLEGAL acts is illegal. Both intimidation and harassment can be legal, it depends on circumstance. It is in our interest to try to stop their actions ASAP. I see exactly where these punks were going and I see where they are heading, but they haven't gone their yet. You cannot prosecute somebody and expel them for something that you think they may become (without any proof). If you can prove these people will move on to the point of killing others, do it and I will agree that they should be suspended.

[The Backlash Cometh]

367. You're going off on a tangent.

What law enforcement people are able to do, or not to do is not the issue. It's what ordinary people are allowed to do to each other. People who threaten to sue others are received with a much harsher reaction than what you're seeing in this thread. Case in point: BBV and Olberman & DU. I believe, because the issue festered, DU revoked Bev's privileges and Olberman refused to talk to her at all. IF the same example were used in the red star example, the students would have been suspended. So that's one example down. Tailgaters are breaking the law. In florida, it's a traffic infraction. So that's another example of intimidation which goes down the shooter as a "seriously legal" example. People who get together and protest need to get permission in order to assemble and form their protest. I doubt that the red star graffiti artist got permission. So, "seriously legal" is a bit stretching the truth since each example you gave needs something overlooked in order for it to work for you.

[purduejake]

394. I am not off on a tangent.

These people had a right to access the outside of the professors door and did no damage to it. There is no damn crime. Deal with that fact and stop going off on your own tangents.

[The Backlash Cometh]

411. Getting a little testy are we?

Doing nothing today, is like doing nothing when the right-wing conspiracy started their little echo chambers in the 90s. From Drudge it filtered its way to FoxNews. Now they have the process canned pat. The only way to retaliate is to return that intimidation. Which I think you will agree, would be our free speech right to do. If that means sending petitions to the administration to ask for these students to be suspended, so be it. That is our right to express ourselves. It may not amount to any legal action, but it will send a message that their behavior is not acceptable.

[purduejake]

417. Go for it.

I don't think it's a fair thing to do, but it's your right. I'm not going to stop anybody who wants to teach those Nazis a lesson they'll never forget. They may even deserve it, but I will not attack somebody else's right to free speech for my own personal vendetta against some harmless, clueless college student.

[The Backlash Cometh]

477. Yet you support intimidation which does come forth as a personal

attack? How quaint. It's wrong. But as long as we're going to increase the division in this country, let's do it right. Let's meet their passion with equal or greater passion. If we don't, they'll take our silence for complaceny.

[CAcyclist]

485. You are changing the subject

but I will take your bait:

Tailgating is absolutely not legal - it's clearly unsafe driving, which is illegal in every state.

Threatening to sue others and peaceful protesting are not intimidation acts.

Law enforcement can get in trouble for intimidation,too, but they have to go through training to get their jobs and there are oversight committees. So this is a different kettle of fish.

In a school environment, students do not have the right to deface property or make threatening acts, which these were, in my opinion and clearly in the opinion of others. If your opinion differs, well then, I just don't think your opinion is worth listening to.

I will end this by adding you to my ignore list, because I'm tired of reading stupid arguments. Bye.

[calimary]

180. Exactly. My first thought upon reading this was - SHEESH - when do the

mandatory tattoos start?

Any trains to be loaded into?

This is getting creepy.

[LittleClarkie]

233. Yep, yellow stars did enter my mind too

Sick bastards. God forbid the marketplace of ideas be preserved and someone disagree with him. Worse, here we go again with the Liberal equals Communist crap. So that's okay, but let Byrd call their tactics Nazi-esque and they're all up in arms.

[Bo]

296. I thought the same thing...triangles anyone?

I shuddered inwardly at the thought. Where is my America?

[evilqueen]

240. Yeah, exactly

That was the first thing I thought of... how the Jews were forced to wear yellow stars.

[Catch22Dem]

360. Um...not even close

You're born Jewish. That would be racial discrimination. Any lefty like me would consider pissing off some punk kid repukes enough to earn a red star, a badge of honor.

[Just Me]

36. Going around "marking" any target is neo-fascism at its height.

These young Republicans went on private property and MARKED a group of people!!!!

Going around "marking" so-called "liberal professors" is so freakin' fascist that I cannot believe any American citizen would ever tolerate it,...EVER!!!!! :grr:

[FreedomAngel82]

41. I think these republicans

made mistake and put the stars on the wrong people. :eyes:

[Just Me]

They are the fascist poster boys and girls of our current administration.

Aren't they.

I'll bet Rove is the freakin' hero!!!

[purduejake]

64. I agree, they may be fascists....

but for far worse things than this prank.

[Just Me]

72. I will no longer accept the "prank" defense by right-wing neo-fascists.

I have had quite enough of them not only pressing the envelope but stepping way over the line.

ZERO-TOLERANCE OF FASCIST HATE!!!!

[purduejake]

76. I just hit 1000 posts in this thread.

So I automatically win the debate. Case closed. ;)

[ElectroPrincess]

87. Kudos to you ... purduejake - for 1000 posts. You win? But of course.

[purduejake]

152. hehe, so I get to be right for once! j/k

Screw the rest of these crazy people. I like you ;) </joke about the first part>

[Yupster]

150. funny purduejake

You really did get a rare LOL.

[purduejake]

151. My pleasure.

I am glad I didn't totally piss everybody off and figured everybody needed something to laugh at in this intense debate. :D

[stevedeshazer]

159. Sure, Jake

Baiting Jews and liberals is fun, isn't it?

ha ha ha, I'm just really amazed at your original sense of humor.

What's your next joke? Old ladies and negroes?

[purduejake]

166. I didn't understand your question.

And I am trying to have a serious debate, but people have gotten too emotional and personal so it's turned into a mud-slinging contest. Honest to God... and maybe this is because the rest of you don't live in a city as backward as mine, but I have about 20 better things I can do around here to promote liberal causes. I don't think it's that big of a deal compared to everything else and personally I prefer to choose my battles so I have the energy to fight the big issues first.

[The Backlash Cometh]

261. Well, maybe this is a losing battle for you and you picked the wrong fight

[purduejake]

410. It's not a loosing battle... it's been very successful.

I have caused people to re-evaluate their positions and even enlightened some people. That is one hell of an accomplishment when people tend to be so set in their ways.

Even if I was loosing, it takes nothing away from my cause. It's only one battle, the winner of the war remains to be seen. Although if people like me loose the war, we all loose. It's easy to loose rights, but gaining them back is very difficult and often involves blood. Countless people have died for the right to free speech and offensive positions. Too bad you're willing to squander it because you hate fascists. How ironic.

[mondo joe]

416. To the contrary: supporting freedom to harass and threaten

doesn't do anyone any favors.

[purduejake]

420. It does too...

It is a tactic people use all the time to change people's actions, including fascist Nazis. If they do something ILLEGAL to me, I would probably threaten them by pressing charges and maybe even harass them by spitting on their car every time I walk by it. It's all perfectly legal and/or harmless while being a threat and harassment.

[mondo joe]

424. Pressing charges isn't a threat, Jakey.

And the threats that fall into the "legal" or "illegal" category are mutable and change over time.

By simply lumping them into il/legal you're only pointing out where they stand at the moment.

A cross burning today is illegal. A few years ago it wasn't. By your reasoning, a cross burning a few decades ago in Alabama would have been fine because it was legal, but a few decades later it's not fine because it's illegal.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

95. in my opinion

http://cafepress.com/BushismFascism

[flyarm]

219. these brown shirt kids...

scare the shit out of me..who is raising these little nazi's??
give them to me for a couple of days..iwould straighten their asses out in a heartbeat!!

i hate what my country has become...i hate these f'ing fascists!!

i am getting so hateful...i just dont know how to cope with it anymore...
i am 53 and just retired and should be enjoying my life..and i am hateful for the first time in my life...its a lousey feeling..and a helpless feeling...

wow i find myself passing a flag on the street when driving and i have to turn my head away...i have never ever felt this before...and it breaks my heart!

and i fear for my sons generation...

fly

[purduejake]

58. Wait... I thought it was on their office doors.

Office doors would not be on private property, but if they did actually trespass, yes they should be held accountable for that.

edit: It WAS on office doors. University buildings are often open after hours and no trespassing on to private property took place as far as I know.

[Just Me]

80. Are fascist techniques forgiveable,...in your world?

Ya' know what,...I may be a "liberal",...but, I am a "liberal" with limits.

I watch the right-wing try to DESTROY a professor who simply shared his point of view.

BUT YOU DEFEND YOUNG REPUBLICANS WHO PHYSICALLY MARK "LIBERALS".

There is something very screwy about this picture!!!

[purduejake]

90. I think it is hypocritical...

We as liberals are often accused of hate acts against neo-cons. Some think Americans should not be allowed to criticise the president and call him a fascist Nazi. I think they should be allowed to and I often call Bush a "fascist Nazi" that a foreign government should snatch and put on trial for war crimes. I will not accuse others of hate crimes when I do it myself and feel it is a freedom.

[Just Me]

99. I have NEVER been accused of what you apparently engage in,...

,...NONE of my friends or constituents have ever been accused of such things, and I find your post an irrational, bullshit, accusation that is ONLY ASSERTED by the radical right-wing. If you are a member of the "hate crime" machine,...that is your personal problem and a reflection of your true colors.

And, I might add that,...your true colors are SHINING THROUGH!!!!

[purduejake]

110. I don't know what you are talking about.

I said that I engaged in hate acts against neo-cons. I didn't accuse you of anything. Last time I checked, the radical-right wing wasn't a group that supported unpopular free speech, but maybe you've had different experiences than me.

If you think I am part of a hate crime machine for my hateful statements, good for you. You're entitled to your belief so long as you don't come keying my car.

edit: Please attack the idea and don't make this so personal. Many of us, including myself slip up sometime so I am not trying to be "better than though" or anything like that. I'm just staying we should try to put things in perspective.

[Just Me]

120. You defend this behavior and confess in having engaged in similar behavior

Please do confess your "hate acts" against the neocons.

Btw: it would be really excellent if you would distinguish between political dissent against a neocon governance and the HATE EVENT committed by neo-fascists against professors who fail to pass the fascist test.

[purduejake]

122. I do distinguish between the two and find it offensive.

But what American has the right not be be offended? It's a bad hate event, but not illegal. Sorry... you have to write the laws before prosecuting somebody for breaking it. Tell me what law was broken... and the personal property isn't going to fly because the DA isn't even persuing that from what I can tell.

[Just Me]

128. You advocate no consequences for this behavior!!! Why?

Why are you defending this abhorent behavior? Why?

Do you believe this form of fascist hate mongering should be just left to run amok?

If so, how the hell are you protecting "democracy" by allowing such activities to go on without any limitations?

Do you believe "democracy" without limits on these behaviors?

[purduejake]

133. Please explain to me what law was broken.

These people are assholes. That isn't illegal and they are not even being accused of trespassing except on this board.

[Just Me]

135. Our children don't break laws but get suspended from school for less,...

,...egregious behavior than this.

[purduejake]

136. We aren't talking about children.

We are talking about adults in college. BIG difference.

edit: I would like to add this to one of my posts, and I am not targeting the person I am responding to, but I am sure some people are continuously arguing against me for saying things that I never said. If I didn't say something STOP acting like I did!

[Just Me]

143. Precisely. And they should be held to a higher self-governing standard.

They are adults and should know better than that!!!

They should be held fully accountable for their behavior!!!!

[purduejake]

147. Agreed.

And they are being held accountable. They have people bitching at them and they have to try to defend a weak case and stupid actions.

[Blue Belle]

185. I see your point... Fascists have rights too.

It's kind of like when the Neo Nazi party sponsored a portion of the highway to clean, and of course had the "this Portion of the Freeway is sponsored by the Neo Nazi party of Oregon" sign along that stretch of the road. What they did was perfectly legal, but also strangely offensive.

I'm not poo pooing anyone's right to free speech, or questioning the legality of their methods... but if this whole labeling thing is based on disagreeing with the political preferences of a professor, the best way to confront the problem is through civil discourse... not by placing a scarlet star on their door. That hearkens back to the swastika and goose-stepping days - back when it was better to label, blame, and rally support through fear rather than articulate a defense of your point of view. More often than not, reactionary labeling is done in desperation - the act of a petulant child when there is a loss of words to explain their logic.

The trend I find disturbing is, yet again, being set by the Bush Administration... we're showing the generations to come that facts and articulating an alternative point of view aren't welcome forms of discourse. Can't find support for your Social Security plan?? Quick! Call in the Swift Boat Liars to slime the AARP! The most negative word in the English Language anymore is "Liberal"... and Republican's are stamping a scarlet "L", Star< or otherwise on Reporters, or Senior Citizen Lobbyists, or Spongebob, or any other group they deem unsavory to their policies (Liberal just isn't for Ted Kennedy anymore - anyone can be one if you have half a brain!). I said it before, and ever since I read this article, I keep seeing the same things popping up again.. and again. If we're not careful, history could repeat itself in the worst way.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

[purduejake]

197. You start out acting as if you have a right not to be offended.

And everybody here has agreed time and again that civil discource is much better than what they did. I don't know what your point was.

[Blue Belle]

295. My point....

is this student acted out a need for publicity - much like the Neo-Nazi party of Oregon did when they sponsored a street to maintain. Each party stayed within their legal boundaries, but delivered message that was found offensive and got their name in the paper. Each party took a symbol associated with hate and used it to gain a little free press. If this girl really felt that her professor was guilty of indoctrination, she'd have to prove it to the ranking members of the school faculty - and it is my guess that she couldn't, or wouldn't. She took the Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly route of assigning blame to a label and dispersed it to people who pissed her off.

[purduejake]

339. And what did this girl do?

She has people questioning the validity of a regulation she wanted enforced and she has no less than half of the country reading about her stupid stunt, including people who she may later want to apply for a job with.

[Blue Belle]

351. So...

What's your point?

[purduejake]

354. The point is that she pissed people off...

but did not break any laws. Period.

[Blue Belle]

371. AND...

Did I mention that she was guilty of breaking any laws? No. I think you are confusing me with the others down the thread who are crying for her head on a platter. And while I agree with you that her actions may very well come back to bite her in the ass someday, I think that simply wishing her ill karmic will is not the best answer to this problem. The reason why I cited Thom Hartman's article in my original post is I feel people need to wake up to the fact that this is not an isolated case. Fascist acts are occurring all over this country in the name of being "a good American". Their methods are perfectly legal, but their effects are hurting this country. Screeching fear and hate... the noise is so blaring and ugly that people miss the big picture by it's distraction. next thing you know, we're going to wake up and find Pre WWII Germany outside our window... then wonder how we could have been so complacent to let this happen.

[purduejake]

392. I agree with everything you said...

I think we are already well on our way to Pre WWII Germany and have no idea how to deal with it other than try to debate with people about issues, ignore their stupid actions (that really don't hurt me), and spend most of my time focusing on the things that are clearly unconstitutional or illegal. It's a tough battle when you do not have control of the government like the neo-cons, but it's one that must be fought.

Sorry for my mistake about your position on the legality of what happened.

[Blue Belle]

434. The thing I find frustrating is the absence of debate...

I would absolutely LOVE to see a real debate with fact based arguments, and articulate thoughts... but now such ideas may be considered UnAmerican. I think we should start a white rose society of our own - at least while we still have the right to assemble on the blogosphere.

[purduejake]

440. See, we do agree on many things...

And that is why I have consistently told people (at least in notes sent through this website) is that although people are getting ugly and resorting to name calling and becoming grammar nazis, we agree on so many other things and I truly do believe all of you do see in shades of gray... just not on this issue.

I would love a real debate too and think that there has been some of that in here. People make me think about stuff and I hope I am able to do the same instead of just invoke name-calling.

[Blue Belle]

483. People have become reactive rather than proactive...

I understand that you are just trying to clarify this girl's basic right of free speech, but the hate speech/ black and white world of the Neo-cons have made anyone who doesn't drink their kool-aide a little hostile... a little afraid. It's like Flyarm states a few posts up:

"i am getting so hateful...i just dont know how to cope with it anymore...
i am 53 and just retired and should be enjoying my life..and i am hateful for the first time in my life...its a lousey feeling..and a helpless feeling..."

This is how a lot of people feel. They think of the DU as an oasis where they can go and read the views of people with like minds. And though you are merely stating the obvious, that no law was broken, other members see that as a threat... and start reacting and attacking. This is how the Neo Cons are winning. This is how hate speech corrupts normally rational people. I've read your posts down the thread and I see where you have had to rein a few people in when they have taken you words out of context... emotions get in the way of what was actually said. The point is, we need it.

Personally, I'm glad you spoke up and asked me to clarify my post. The observations you made are the same arguments the cons will try to attack me on... better to tighten my argument now - under friendly conditions.

[Name removed]

398. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

358. LOL....

I was wondering when someone would bring out this point.

The profs seem more concerned with this stupid regulation than some wannabe fascist haning a red star on their door.

Is she a fascist? Either that or she is so woefully ignorant of history that she doesn't know the significance of tagging someone. Not from a free speech aspect but rather an effectively getting your message across persepective. And as you have pointed out her stunt is having the opposite effect.

Personally I think people here are happy to have their outrage of the week story. You know like the ones on RW radio where a little girl was told to take off her cross necklace and BS like that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

266. A law would be broken if the university had a rule that all posters

needed to be approved before displaying.

[purduejake]

203. RED WHITE and BLUE!

[The Backlash Cometh]

265. Often accused? I haven't heard of any hate crimes from liberals

to conservatives. Care to cite some sources? We aren't doing anything to Bush that the right-wingers didn't do far worse to Clinton.

[Igel]

316. I'll step in with an example.

Not necessarily a "crime", but certainly appropriate in this context.

Each term I was at UCLA some advocacy groups would get together and march on a professor's class. Outside of class he claimed that the biggest contribution to increased polution and consumption of resources in S. California was immigration. Which necessarily meant from Mexico and Central America. The advocacy groups didn't like it: it was racist to claim such a thing. His class was something like physics.

They--students from MEChA and other ethnic-rights groups--would take whistles and other noise making devices. They'd block students from going to class. Once class was underway, they'd barge in and march around for 10-15 minutes chanting anti-racist slogans and making noise to disrupt his class. Then they'd leave, staying outside to heckle students as they left class.

He went to the administration: intimidation, infringing on academic freedom. Student government got involved defending their constituent groups (MEChA is part of stu-gov there). The student paper sided with the protesters. The university just made sure he was always in a lecture hall that led directly outside, so halls wouldn't be jammed and other classes affected.

[The Backlash Cometh]

322. You know who could have stopped this in its tracks? The parents.

Anyone paying tuition could have started a campaign against the Administration because schools have a public interest to provide safe learning environments for their students. I seem to remember that because of it, schools have wide powers to search and seize items in dorm rooms. If they have that much power to infringe on Fourth Amendment privileges, they certainly have a right to infringe on First Amendment ones if it interferes with other student's rights to listen in on a class that they paid for.

So, it sounds like, in your case, someone wasn't thinking on their feet.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

248. Public/private property

For the 15yrs I worked at UPenn, campus buildings were considered private property (I'm sure they still are), and signs were posted at all entrances saying as much (even service doors and exit-only doors). Campus police seemed to fall on the side of being reasonable, but they were fully allowed (and were right) to remove anyone who couldn't produce a school ID or who were not escorted by someone who was.

Incidentally, every building I worked in (which was around 10 over the years) was locked after hours (and a few 24/7) but those who belonged there could gain access with a key or by swiping their ID.

Santa Rosa may be different, but my point is that just b/c it's a place where lots of people autonomously enter and exit, it doesn't mean somebody's not trespassing. At least at UPenn, office doors were on private property.

BTW, seems like marking doors under cover of anonymity is not only an act of cowardice, but the sneakiness might even cause one to think they knew they were doing something unethical.

[The Backlash Cometh]

263. Most universities have rules that posters need to be approved before

they're allowed to be displayed on campus grounds. If that's the case, then I suspect that a law was broken.

[calimary]

303. Clearly this young lady may be a political science major, but she's

sleeping through (or maybe just ditching) ALL her history classes - especially those studying World War Two and what led up to the Holocaust. But then again, perhaps she's one of those "newthink" geniuses who doesn't think the Holocaust really happened.

[RapidCreek]

231. If you slapped a rainbow sticker on my door and I knew you did it

or you were stupid enough to admit that you had, I'd have your ass thrown in jail for vandalism and criminal trespass. If you asserted I was a communist and I was not I'd also sue you for defamation of character and liabel.

Your freedom of expression ends at your nose....NOT my door.

RC

[FuzzyDicePHL]

250. Beautifully put EOM

[jwirr]

270. Speaking of Hitler:

Was it just free speech that was going on when he and his bastards marked Jews in various ways by using a Star of David on their houses and clothes? It would be harmless if it were not meant to mark out a specific group for discrimination. A red star in a textbook? Sure, free speech. A red star on the doors of a specific group? No, it is meant to signal to others that this group is a target. It is a threat.

[rman]

304. how about a swastika on the doors of RW professors?

that'd be more like a red star on doors then "posting signs of Bush and Hitler together".

[AnneD]

320. It is one thing .......

to stand around at a rally in the open with a sign-that is freedom of speech. It is totally another thing to single out a person, whether by place a label on the door, stalking, or forcing them to wear or carry something that distinguishes-that is intimidation of the individual-hindering their right to freedom of speech. This clearly can be construed as intimidation and thus interfering with free speech (the old your rights end where mine begin). I see a very clear parallel to the Nazi movement. People being singled out for 'special' treatment. What next, pink for gays, yellow for Jews, black for Arab Americans, green for liberal. Wake up America and smell the Gestapo. Germany WAS a democracy before Hitler(who was from Austria BTW), came in and took over. Bet no one in Germany thought it would happen there either.

[Callboy]

375. enough of these republican pukes

if they are so valiant, why dont they suit up and fight the wars they so ardently support. Cripes All they ever say is stuff like, gee, my granddaddy fought a war so i wouldnt have so, so i could run around and put red stars on profs. doors.

I am sure he would be happy to know that that is how you use your freedom. Keep on digesting those talking points, while they pick pocket you with taxes....

[wuwei]

364. hate speech not protected on all campuses..

While its hostly contested if hate speech is/should be constitionally protected or not, some United States universities have speech codes that prohibit hate speech. It would be interesting to know if this was one of them.

What about hate speech fosters an environment of intelligent discourse on a campus?

Using your same logic what if someone but a big N sticker on the doors of all the black teachers? See the difference?

Insofar as your question about students with Bush/Hitler signs, I can certainly empthasize and would probably be amongst them - but I would need a much longer time to evaluate if that is hate speech or political discussion. We all know that the Bush family has ties to Nazi Germany .. even though the repukes would like to "move on" over that one wouldn't they?

[ClintonTyree]

175. Not to mention just plain old vandalism..........

tagging someone else's property is a no-no as well. If someone went to these student's houses and put swastikas in their doors, do you think there would be much of an uproar?

You bet your ass there would. All of the sudden the "Young Republicans" (nazi youth) would be filing "frivolous" lawsuits left and right.

String the little bastards up.

[purduejake]

201. Use the dictionary if you are unsure of a word:

van·dal·ism n. Willful or malicious destruction of public or private property.

Uh, how does this have anything to do with vandalism? Applying tape to the outside of a door (that is probably normally taped on) is not destroying any property. What in the hell are you talking about?

Of course there would be an uproar if people went around hanging swastikas. Hell, teachers hang red stars on bulletin boards in their classrooms and nobody's ever bitched about that before.

[trogdor]

292. I would expel them.

Period, whether there was a specific rule about what they did or not. There has to be a catch-all rule about general misconduct like this. Let the idiot bastard explain to the next dean of admissions why he was expelled, and see if he ever gets into anywhere else other than a community college ever again.

[Name removed]

337. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

362. So,

You don't think that singling out and intimidating professors for any reason is worthy of expulsion. Those that disagree with YOU are fascist? Want to put any sort of mark on their accounts here at DU singling them out?

Singling out professors and marking their doors intending to intimidate them may not be against the law, but it certainly is expulsion worthy for any campus that wants to encourage a free exchange of ideas. Intimidation is NOT part of that.

[purduejake]

423. I believe it would make you a fascist...

but if you were in that position, you could try it. If I was expelled for expressing my personal opinions in academia, I would slap you with a lawsuit. Take that as a threat if you want. It's legal, so deal with it.

[7th_Sephiroth]

3. sounds like an immediate dispellation of the students

hate crime prosecution too if there was a jewish teacher they did this to

[purduejake]

202. What do red stars have to do with Jews?

Uh, why would doing it to a jew be different to doing it to anybody else? Even if this star was some kind of established symbol of hate against Jews, the prosecution would have to prove that they targeted the Jew because they were jewish. For instance, if not all of the people who had a star on their doors were Jews, the hate crime law would most likely not apply. I suppose you can prosecute somebody for doing something that you know they didn't do... but that would be illegal and it appears as if you are suggesting unethical and illegal prosecution of these American citizens. Where's Gonzales... I need to talk to him about this. As the chief law inforcement of the land, I suppose what he said would fly, so maybe you're okay.

[7th_Sephiroth]

312. its a Rovean tactic

get it in the news repeated over and over, even if it isint true, the words Republican and Nazi, it does have an effect

[purduejake]

408. We all can hate Rove...

but he is a brilliant man... even if he is evil. He knows how to push the line and not break laws. You just have to deal with it in an intelligent way instead of over-reacting and trying to shut somebody up through unfair, unreasonable, and possibly illegal methods. As a progressive liberal, I hold myself to the same standards to those I bitch about. If you don't, you're a hypocrite.

[7th_Sephiroth]

484. to defear your enemy, you must know your enemy

you must meet them on even terms, as well, to beat rove, someone must BECOME Rove

[leftynyc]

324. There was a supreme court case about this very thing

burning a cross was the issue. Even Clarence Thomas stated that while burning a cross fell under freedom of speech - doing it on an African-American's property was clearly an attempt to intimidate.

[purduejake]

336. I agree with the supreme court case...

which deals with organizations threatening to beat the hell out of, kill, or run people out of town.

Explain to me how a red star taped to a door by students suggesting people may be breaking regulations is like burning a 20 foot cross in front of somebody's house with a bunch of masked freaks who have a knack for beating the hell out of people?

[Just Me]

4. I'd call them, "The Red Star Fascists"!!!

People, we either get aggressively ahead of this shit,...or appease these extremists.

These little shits need to be reprimanded with a suspension.:grr:

[janx]

156. This needs to be forwarded to other media.

All the media should hear about this, because it's probably not going to stop at Santa Rosa Junior College.

[Bob3]

5. If i was one of those profs I would

print out a copy of the Nazi poster that said (in German) "Germans do not buy from Jews!" and put it up next to the red star just to remind the little darlings where their tactics come from.

edit - so ticked I forgot to write all the words.

[cally]

70. Good idea

I live 30 minutes from Santa Rosa JC. I may know some of the professors targetted. For lurking freepers, they are not communists. I know they try to offer both sides and a try to get a good class discussion. This disgusts me.

I'm going to call tomorrow and offer support. I will offer this idea.

[jwirr]

278. Another idea

would be for the college to address the issue with a educational seminar regarding harassment, historic uses of negative symbolism and the difference between liberalism (democracy) and communism. We used this method to combat negative racial attitudes in the college I attended in the 70s.

[JHB]

282. Yet another idea...

...Buy a bunch of brown shirts, scuff them up, and deliver them to the College Republicans with a note:

"Before you smear someone else, make sure your own laundry is clean"

[vs the introvore]

372. would you believe... more ideas! kinda irrelevant though

i fashionably wear a soviet military hat and a soviet military belt buckle (in season of course) that both feature the red star. well, just the star on the buckle as it is brass but the recognizable insignia (hammer & sickle)is visible. but the hat, green wool (with earflaps and a visor and pointed on the top) bearing the red star is not really fashionable, more functional for the blistering winter so its obvious to anyone seeing my lanky ass loping across the tundra that i am wearing it expressively and although i look like a huge geek, i am an imposing, deliberate and mag-fucking-nificent geek and i know this does not really relate since i VOLUNTARILY mark myself but what i am attempting to convey is that in defense of the profs or of the ideologies, supportive students should jump on the brandwagon (sic) and wear the red star with mofo pride! hell we have white stars on our flag and even the swastika was not always defined as a nazi symbol so friggin claim it, man! certainly this molly kid is some kinda nut who should atleast have to write an essay (am i old fashioned?) or do some community (campus) service but she should not be expelled. where else might she possibly still learn and mature? T-fuckingV? i rest.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

6. Bushism = Fascism

The brownshirts are marching again.

[Supersedeas]

276. the Bushist Youth Movement is taking Compassionate Conservatism

and the so-call value based majority to new lows.

[democracyindanger]

7. Krystallnacht, anyone?

[Mojambo]

8. That's a pretty ugly development

It's a step towards open harrassment and intimidation.

The fascists grow bolder every day.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. The Nazi's marked Jewish establishments with stars too.

How long before we leftists have to start sewing stars on our clothes?

Just innocent pranks like Abu-Ghraib and Dachau.

[purduejake]

16. You are over-reacting.

I think it is unreasonable to relate this little stunt to Nazi persecution of Jews.

[VOX]

22. No, this kind of behavior is definitely hate-based...

Of course, it doesn't yet have the magnitude of Nazi persecution, but IMO, it certainly represents a beginning of the kind of behavior that occurred in Germany.

And that's why this kind of crap cannot be allowed to happen in this country.

[purduejake]

25. I flick off people with Bush stickers on their cars...

is that a hate crime?

[VOX]

35. No, it's not a hate-crime. But it is hate-based behavior.

And even then, there's a difference between your flipping somebody off in a passing car, and some students marking specific professors' offices to signify "evil" or something negative. It's more direct, more accusatory, and makes a broader, resonating statement.

Flipping off cars doesn't make it into the news.

[purduejake]

40. Yes, it is hate based.

I hate neo-cons and I call them out and make direct, accusatory, resonating statements against them. I do it to their faces, though. Leaving a letter would do the same thing, but is cowardly.

[blondeatlast]

97. Yet, here you are defending this behavior?

Please explain the difference?

[purduejake]

112. Yes, I am defending the students from excessive punishment.

Accusing somebody of being in violation of a law or regulation is a little different than forcing a jew to wear a certain symbol. I accuse people of breaking the laws, too and I call people fascist war criminals. I will defend that behavior.

[Just Me]

124. Ah, I see. Suspension is too punitive for fascist-like behavior.

These naive guys and gals who MARKED professors with red stars should be slapped on the wrists for replicating Goebbels following.

:eyes:

But, firing a professor for pointing out how the U.S. corporacratic policy has been oppressing peoples around the world,...is FAIR punishment.

[purduejake]

137. I never said it was fair for the professor.

Please don't act as if I said something that I did not.

[Just Me]

144. Their behavior was abhorrent and suspension would not be excessive.

You clearly do not take a stand against their behavior or take a stand that they should accept strong conquences for their behavior.

[purduejake]

148. DO NOT MIS-REPRESENT WHAT I SAID

I have taken a stand against them several times and have asked on many posts to debate me on what I actually say, not on positions you make up for me. They should accept the consequences, if they are fair.

[ClintonTyree]

177. You're defending a losing position..............

rule #1. NEVER defend a losing position. Cut, and run. You're going to get eaten alive here son. Cut, and run, live again to fight another day. Just some advice from your old Uncle ClintonTyree.

[purduejake]

195. Jesus fought a losing position...

Would you have told him to cut and run? Nobody has even attempted to touch my logic because it actually makes since and is applied objectively. I don't have double standards -- one for liberals and one for conservatives. The only people being eaten alive are people who attack me instead of my ideas- because they can't.

And, for future reference, I am not your son and my age has nothing to do with the validity of my point. It's offensive, and perhaps some on this thread would suggest it is hate speech against young people. Sorry sir, I fight the battles that need to be fought, especially ones that concern basic civil rights that are guaranteed in the United States Constitution. Check it out sometime.

[LittleClarkie]

237. Your position is not invunerable

Flipping of a Bush voter, and painting a Nazi symbol on their lawn would be two different things. At the very least, these boys should not have gotten physical. I don't have a double standard either. Neither is acceptable. Once you go from speech to action and destruction of property, you've crossed the line.

I also have trouble believing that speech and/or actions intended to intimidate is considered protected somehow.

[purduejake]

340. You keep up making shit up.

Who in the hell got physical here?

Debate me with facts, not things you pull from your imagination.

[purduejake]

delete

I replied to my post to make a comment about somebody, but that's not fair... I want to have the decency of letting them see that I replied to them so they can defend themselves.

[purduejake]

448. So my logic is correct and actually worked.

You finally shut up when I called out your offensive actions of making shit up and put it in a light that made you look foolish. Hmm, that is the same approach I would use against the people with the red stars!

[Just Me]

65. What these "young Republicans" did is definitely a HATE CRIME.

No one can convince me otherwise!!!

They went on people's personal property and freakin' MARKED THEM!!!

THAT IS A HATE CRIME!!! NO DOUBT IN MY MIND WHATSOEVER!!!!

I don't care if "liberals" are a "protected" class or not. These fascists are MAKING THEM A PROTECTED CLASS BY THEIR ACTIONS!!!

The little fascists are broadening the margin of a "protected" class by their disgusting behavior!!!!

[purduejake]

116. Please stop saying it was personal property.

They were not trespassing from what I understand.

[stlsaxman]

244. The professors were "personally" marked.

My office at work is my property, even though i don't "own" it. It has my name on it. When someone needs to see me personally that is where they can find me- so it's MINE... and that makes it personal property. Just like a Jewish store owner in Nazi Germany may not have held the deed to the building, the store had their name on it. These offices were the offices of these individual persons. And just because the student had every right to be on that campus and declare to his fellows about what he sees as the "impending commie threat" posed by these professors they have NO RIGHT to alter said professors "property" w/o his/her permission or the permission of the land owner, and the student had neither.

Sorry, your stance on this is incorrect. The student DID trespass on these professors, in a hateful, cowardly act. Cowardly because if no one knew who did it- it would be supposed that a "large group" of people "knew as fact" that these professors were "communists".

Kool-aid comes in may wonderful flavors. Careful what you drink.

[Sapphire Blue]

226. HATE CRIME

Courtesy of Webster....

Main Entry: hate crime

Function: noun

: any of various crimes (as assault or defacement of property) when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation)

[Just Me]

43. You come on my damned personal property and MARK ME,...

,...and you are engaging in fascist hatred!!!!

DAMNED RIGHT IT'S A HATE CRIME!!!

YOU MARK PEOPLE, YOU ARE ENGAGING IN A HATE CRIME!!!

[purduejake]

71. Again, it was NOT private property.

And labeling people, while often wrong, is NOT a hate crime.

I hate neo-cons. I just labeled people. Would it be a hate crime if I called them out on their beliefs or exagerated a claim by saying "They like to see torture!!!"?

[Just Me]

75. THEY PLACED RED STARS ON PROFESSOR'S DOORS!!!

Oh,...I'm sorry,...what they did is totally acceptable to you.

We should just let this behavior go as some silly, stupid thingy by the young Republicans.

However, we should FIRE a professor who simply spoke his opinion.

[purduejake]

79. Now you are placing words in my mouths.

I never said that the behavior is totally acceptable -- I said it is not a hate crime, even though it is wrong.

Also, I agree that the professor should not have been fired for his unpopular and offensive beliefs... just like these students should not be suspended. I am not the one being hypocritical here.

[Just Me]

82. You are defending their behavior. You are minimizing their behavior.

You have advocated that their behavior ain't a big deal.

Their behavior is egregious, over the line, disgusting, reprehensible enough that I would imagine even you would advocate some pretty serious consequences.

But, hell,...I'm just reading what you post and know nothing about you.

[purduejake]

86. I think their behavior is wrong... it is simply not a hate crime...

where people should be suspended and thrown in jail. That is fascism. There is a lot of my speech that is allegedly "over the line, disgusting," and "reprehensible" but I shouldn't be suspended or locked up. All I did was accuse the President of this country of war crimes, treason, felonies, and countless other crimes.

[Just Me]

102. It's a tolerable fascist hatred to you to the point that you defend it.

So be it.

I'll take a stand against this behavior.

You can go right ahead and defend it.

[purduejake]

107. Okay.

I am proud to support unpopular and even offensive speech from state punishment whether I believe in it or not.

[realisticphish]

163. so are these people

:thumbsup:

thank you for standing up for the bill of rights, even if these hypocrites don't

[SmokingJacket]

294. I suspect the ACLU would not support marking doors of suspected

Communists with a red star.

We could always ask them.

I think they would support the rights of the professors to speak their minds without intimidation.

They would also support the rights of the the students to write essays in their school paper supporting their positions.

[ClintonTyree]

178. When you tack that to bush's front door..................

you don't think you'd be thrown in the slammer? You can say it, but when it becoomes a physical minifestation, then you've broken the law. This is vandalism, at the VERY least, will you accept that? :eyes:

[purduejake]

199. Get your facts straight...

nothing was tacked to any of these people's front doors. Your arguement is not based on fact to begin with, but I will say that if you tape something to somebody's front door, it is certainly NOT vandalism. Please explain to me how it damaged the door or altered it in any reasonable way, shape or form. Check the dictionary before rolling your eyes at me.

[ClintonTyree]

353. Here's a quote by Hunter Thompson that just about says it all.......

as far as purduejake is concerned anyway......

"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level, than beat you with experience".- HST

Of course I can only speak for myself, but this seems to describe this situation to a tee.

[purduejake]

357. I can accept that.

I am the idiot standing up for speech I disagree with. It may seem against my interest, but in the end I also want the right to say offensive things to people without being locked up. That's the part I think you can't see.

edit: It's the part you DON'T see. I think you are capable of seeing why it is important to protect offensive speech, but aren't convinced of it's importance yet -- You'll know why it is important once you offend somebody.

[Sapphire Blue]

227. HATE CRIME

Courtesy of Webster

Main Entry: hate crime

Function: noun

: any of various crimes (as assault or defacement of property) when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation)

[blondeatlast]

98. MouthS?! Freudian? nt

[purduejake]

117. Sorry to disappoint. It was a typo.

[purduejake]

209. It's funny you would say that...

When I am the one applying consistent standards to everybody.

[Sapphire Blue]

224. HATE CRIME

Perhaps Webster can clarify the issue....

Main Entry: hate crime

Function: noun

: any of various crimes (as assault or defacement of property) when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation)

[vs the introvore]

374. you damned your own property? are you a beaver?

essentially this student was engaged in 'marketing.' i seriously mean that as a pun. yes i do. though i shall forever acknowledge any form of stickering to be the least destructive form of vandalism. and this kid actually invigorated the dialogue didn't she? but i still do think she's trite and my momma always said "it ain't polite to point."

[blondeatlast]

96. Maybe, but it didn't come out of the Nazi playbook like the posting

of the letters.

Congratulations on your ORIGINALITY.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. I don't.

The Nazi's didn't start out murdering Jews. They went after the left first. Then they started with small acts of harassment against the Jews. I suggest you read "I Will Bear Witness" by Victor Klemperer.

[purduejake]

33. I agree... I should.

Again, I flick off people with Bush stickers and I know people who tape rainbow flags on the door of the college republican's office. Would that requires expulsion?

[Paul Dlugokencky]

38. what do the rainbow flags signify?

[purduejake]

44. The GLBTQ movement.

Which has major problems with neo-cons and bigots. Placed on the repub's door can be a symbol of hate and perhaps harassing. Doesn't mean expulsion should take place.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

59. What is "GLBTQ" ?

[purduejake]

60. gay lesbian bisexual trans queer

[Paul Dlugokencky]

73. Is that the same thing, then?

So why would rainbow flags be taped on the door of the college Republican's office? Do they support the movement?

[purduejake]

77. No. It would be to piss them off. Nothing more.

[TankLV]

109. the "q" = questioning, not "queer".

and it's "transgendered" not "trans"

[purduejake]

114. What about the transexuals?

And q can be for questioning for queer.

[TankLV]

131. Don't believe me - I'm gay and very political.

But don't believe me.

We'll believe your bullshit theories instead.

And your idiotic posts trying unsuccessfully to defend brownshirt and nazi tactics.

Transgendered includes transexual persons - that's what the term means.

And it's questioning - as in persons questioning their sexuality.

Queer is another term for gay and is redundant and considered derogatory.

Look it up.

[purduejake]

134. Then I suppose the QUEER Resource Center at Purdue University...

is derogatory toward gays, right? Queer is all inclusive as it is everything other than straight. Arguing semantics with you is ridiculous especially when you pull the gay card on another gay activist - a gay gay activist who happens to be working with the mayors of 2 cities and the office of the dean of students to update laws and regulations to protect everybody in the queer community by promoting tolerance against all minorities, protected classes, etc.

Where I come from q can mean either questioning or queer and trans is an acceptable term as it is totally enclusive of transexuals and transgendered people. But what does a person with bullshit ideas and idiotic posts know about any of this?

edit: clairty

[Just Me]

47. BULLSHIT!!!! These Young Republicans INVADED personal property

to MARK these people!!! Giving the bird is completely different.

Their actions are way over the freakin' line and I cannot believe you are defending them!!!!

[purduejake]

118. A door facing the hallway of a building the students were authorized...

to be in is NOT personal property and they didn't invade anything.

[Gyre]

184. Well, I think a .40 in the face would made them think twice

If they tried to paint a star on my door.

Gyre

[purduejake]

204. Uh, I don't think they even tried painting anything on anybody's door.

What are you talking about? Jesus, we need tougher gun laws.

[vs the introvore]

379. and for thinking twice they might get a 4.0 and a 40!

no message at all. just playing on the subject lines. that's all anybody reads anyway, right?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. Yes, you should. Klemperer was a professor in Germany in the '30s.

Take a look at the slow slide that took place until he was fleeing for his life after what started out as "pranks".

[purduejake]

119. I understand that point...

but it has not yet passed the point of being offensive in my opinion. They did not cross any line where somebody was physically threatened. You do NOT have the right NOT to be offended in this country.

[blondeatlast]

94. Sure; the fun-lovin' prankster thought of this ENTIRELY on his own.

You need to read up on Nazi propaganda techniques; this is hardly the only thing Rove's college republican lowlifes have pulled that are eerily similar.

[purduejake]

121. The America I believe in...

required evidence, investigations, and other measures to ensure justice. The school is free to investigate to see if it was some kind of organized effort and then deal with the responsible group accordingly.

[imenja]

158. attempt by the right to control the last bastion of free expression

They control the White House, congress, the courts, and the media. The only area they don't control is academia. They are carrying out a concerted attempt to change that. It's evident through actions such as these and the constant barrage against liberal academics in the media. Their primary problem is they can only penetrate they academic world through intimidation. When conservatives enter graduate schools, in the liberal arts at least, they are likely to emerge as leftists. This is not because of ideological control but because higher education promotes critical thinking, and it's difficult to maintain a conservative agenda if you engage in honest and thoughtful examination of issues.

I agree that this is not comparable to Nazi Germany, but it is something to pay attention to. Make no mistake about it: their intent is to suppress dissent and freedom of speech in general.

I for one an putting a red star on my office door as soon as I can find one.

[purduejake]

172. I am concerned about this as well...

and we must address this issue. You can do it by trying to shut people up (which only makes them louder) or you can do it intelligently and in a way that builds community against them -- if decent people like those professors are going to be labeled with a star, show unity with those labeled people! When those belligerent punks realize they are actually a minority and a community is going to stand up to them, they shut up real fast.

[jwirr]

284. Good point.

[carnie_sf]

191. This is how it started in Germany also nt

[drdtroit]

194. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

In the words of Thom Hartmann (thom (at) thomhartmann.com)

"First Bush and Gonzales came for the terrorists, but I was not a terrorist, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the enemy combatants, but I was not a combatant, so I did not object. Then they came for the protesters resisting "free speech zones" near Bush campaign rallies, but I was not a protester and so I only voiced my unease".

-- then

"If we - and our elected representatives - do not speak out now, loudly and forcefully, it may not be long before they come for the rest of us".

[Andromeda]

200. No, Jake...

It's not overreacting because this stunt was hate-based.

I live about 15 min. from the J.C. and I've taken many classes there and I'd never encountered anything like this.

Substitute the word "Jew" with the word "Liberal" and you'll see that this is all part of the fascist propaganda machine.

[LiberalinNC]

242. Was thinking the samething about changing Liberal to Jew

Hell, why not make everyone who agrees w/ the "liberal" teachers wear the red stars!

[blondeatlast]

93. That was my thought as well. WhWhat an adorable little prank. nt

[purduejake]

123. It's a horrible prank. People like that make me sick.

[ashiebr]

356. If the Profs had any nous............

...they would make up some star arm-bands and wear them. And ask their supporters and neutrals to wear them too.

You don't duck a challenge, you confront it.

[senseandsensibility]

10. Ed Shultz

called for the college to stand up to these "student", and he sounded very angry when he was talking about it. He is usually too middle of the road for me, but he said the administration really needs to draw the line. Does anyone know what, if any, disciplinary action will be taken?

[Just Me]

12. Well, damn!!! He SHOULD BE P-O'd!!!

I tell you what,...the administration should be directly attached to these fascist shits!!!

I am so angry, myself, that I am shaking!!!!

[CatholicEdHead]

15. There was action this afternoon

From the article:
"SRJC's Academic Senate is scheduled to discuss the matter at 3:15 p.m. today in the Dyle Student Center and may start a move to repeal the Education Code section cited by the student Republicans, said George Freund, a philosophy instructor.

Faculty members were outraged by the stealthy posting and surprised to find the code prohibition on the advocacy of communism, he said.

The code's first sentence says: "No teacher giving instruction in any school ... shall advocate or teach communism with the intent to indoctrinate or to inculcate in the mind of any pupil a preference for communism.""

So the code in question may be repealled, but no apparent action on the student who did this.

[senseandsensibility]

23. Has disciplinary action actually

been ruled out against them? I sincerely hope it hasn't been. Ed was right. The university needs to take a hard line.

[CatholicEdHead]

29. Not that I could tell from the article

the school is probably first taking the education approach. Since disciplinary action has not explitly been mentioned it is off the table, we can assume it is still on the list of possible options.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. I agree

If not then the student could think he got away with it and could go around and do worse things then just put up stickers. :scared:

[Just Me]

32. Did that "code" prohibit fascist activities!!!!

And how the fuck did these hateful scumbuckets manage to somehow manipulate the existing code into an "intent to indoctrinate" such that their fascist actions were irrationally justified?

This group had better face serious consequences for their actions!!!

[CatholicEdHead]

62. Yes it does

Here is the link. Look at C, D, and O.
http://www.santarosa.edu/admin/scs/section1.html

"# Obstruction or disruption of teaching, administration, disciplinary procedures, College activities, or other authorized activities on College premises.

# Physical or verbal abuse of any person on College owned or controlled property or at College sponsored or supervised functions, or conduct which threatens or endangers the health or safety of any such person.

Assault, battery, or any threat of force or violence upon a student or College personnel.

[Just Me]

85. Well,...that particular section says nothing about "fascism",...

,...but it does replicate the "rule of law" that exists.

[CatholicEdHead]

89. Look at the threat of violence

by their actions. This is a itimitation technique, in essense threating violence or some reprimand if the actions continue.

[Just Me]

104. It still does not refer to "fascism" while their is a code about,...

,..."communism". Seems to me a "hangover" from the fascist McCarthy days.

[purduejake]

115. Then I was truly ignorant of that.

I was not around in that era and wasn't taught/didn't pay attention/and or failed to read about the McCarthy days. I can see how the word communist could mean different things to different people.

[LiberalEsto]

69. Will the offenders

be put on double-secret probation?


Speaking seriously, this is a hate crime that is not a whole lot different from drawing swastikas on a Jewish person's door or burning a cross on the lawn of a black family.

Allow this idiot to go unpunished and eventually they and their ilk will want to brand the skins of every lefty/liberal in the US with their red stars.

[purduejake]

125. How is it a hate crime?

Is it putting fear of personal injury or loss into the minds of all liberals? Are liberals around there afraid for their lives because of the star? It didn't seem like it from the article. Their only concern was a regulation that they may have been in violation of (whether the regulation was just or not)

[Sapphire Blue]

228. HATE CRIME

As defined by Webster

Main Entry: hate crime

Function: noun

: any of various crimes (as assault or defacement of property) when motivated by hostility to the victim as a member of a group (as one based on color, creed, gender, or sexual orientation)

[FizzFuzz]

373. "It makes me a little anxious,"

That professor appears to be saying he is feeling afraid and threatened.

Quotes for publication like this are always worded in minimizing language, that's natural for people to self edit, but what he is trying to convey to the reporter is a sense of violation, seems to me.

<<"It makes me a little anxious," philosophy instructor Michael Aparicio said.>>

You seem to be ignoring the experience of the witnesses/targets themselves.

[arcane1]

162. someone needs to put swastikas on those student's doors

:grr:

[purduejake]

176. I understand your anger...

However, using Nazi symbols to intimidate somebody could be classified as a real hate-crime because that symbol strikes fear into the hearts of jews, Catholics, gays, and everybody else who was oppressed and slaughtered by them. If the right wing starts slaughtering liberals and stamping their foreheads with an elephant, there would THEN be a major problem if people went around taping that insignia to doors. I really don't want to hear this crap about being persecuted as a liberal in this country today. Yea, it's bad, but I dare you to bitch to a jew or any other group of people who lived under the Nazi regime about your problems as a liberal in America today.

[CTPatriot]

210. The Tortured Logic of PurdueJake

To discuss the relative evilness or legality of one symbol versus another completely misses the point! What's happened here is that a group of people representing the ruling party has BRANDED specific subset of professors for a public display of their hatred. The intent is to ostracise and marginalize these professors. It goes far beyond a verbal confrontation, a comparison you made in an earlier post.

Speaking as someone who is both Jewish and gay, I can tell you that I find this behavior to be absolutely chilling. And your reaction, if you really are a liberal and not some freeper troll, is equally chilling due to your inability to understand the impact that these "stars" have on those of us who have been targets in the past.

Your defense reminds me of the Nazi defenders in the Jewish and gay communities who, like you, I suspect, also thought it was no big deal to mark those who were hated by the ruling class. After all, at the time, nobody knew of the genocide that was to follow, nor was it illegal to brand people with pink triangles or six pointed stars.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

252. Right on!

WTG CTPatriot! The last paragraph of your post made me think of Log Cabin Repubs -- and I'd bet I'm not the only one (still working my way down the page)...

BTW, I'm fairly new here myself, but Welcome to DU! :)

[PleadTheFirst]

281. Well spoken, CTP.

And welcome to DU.

[jwirr]

293. Jake, my family have many mentally ill and

developmentally disabled members in it. We have reason to fear Nazi symbols but I also fear the kind of symbolism that these kids did at this college. Our own country has been through our own "nazi" experiments and my family was one of their victims. Read Edwin Black's wonderful history of the eugenics movement in the United States "War Against the Weak".

Given the fascist actions of the bushies and actions like these it would be crazy not to be afraid when they begin targeting groups with symbols. And who is to say that this symbol is not a new form of "nazi" symbol. When did the religious symbol - the Star of David - become the Nazi mark for their enemy the Jew? The symbol was innocent until the Nazi redefined it. So what is the definition of the red star to the young people who placed it on the doors?

Are we supposed to wait until they start rounding up some group before we become afraid? Well they already have as listed in the above post. I AM AFRAID FOR MY LOVED ONES.

[purduejake]

341. As somebody else mentioned...

this was not a government organization placing marks on people's doors. My landlord and I fight all of the time and call each other names and accuse each other of being facists. God, next thing you know she could be rounding me up and throwing me into a ghetto! Whatever.

[mondo joe]

407. Sounds like you have some behavioral problems.

Impulse control?

Anger issues?

[purduejake]

413. Start your own fucking thread or stick to the topic.

There are certain ways to deal with people like my landlord who bullys students around because she knows they don't know their rights and don't have money for attorneys. My tactics have actually been successful and have empowered other students to protect themselves from her breach of contract. She lost. I know how to fight fascists and it is with intelligence, not by shutting them up.

Impulse control issues? Yea, I spend all my money or give it away. Those damn impulse purchases can really come back to bite you in the ass!

Anger issues? Yea, but I deal with my anger in a healthy way by choosing battles to fight and then choosing effective AND legal ways to solve the problem.

Any other questions? Give me the link to your new thread.

[mondo joe]

419. What's wrong, don't like being labeled?

[purduejake]

421. No I don't always like it.

But I don't have the right not to be offended so I deal with it and urge you to talk about it in the appropriate place.

But you know what? -- sometimes I am proud of my labels, specifically commie, pinko, faggot, asshole, whatever. It just depends who it's coming from, really. I see shades of gray unlike the rest of the people (at least when it comes to this issue).

[mondo joe]

427. Okay, Freeper. :-)

The problem with your shades of gray is that they're purely arbitrary.

[purduejake]

432. Okay, now you need to be shut up for calling me that.

Just kidding :D Anyway, you are correct, I don't believe in zero tolerance. Things are arbitrary and contingent on the situation, just like threats made against people.

[mondo joe]

433. If you don't understand words you use I suggest a dictionary

In particular "arbitrary".

[purduejake]

437. Okay... Arbitrary:

Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference. I checked the dictionary before I used it. Aparently you didn't before opening your mouth. oops.

[mondo joe]

439. So you think harassment is subject to individual preference?

Funny - I thought it was subject to legal definition and concensus!

That explains your arbitrary approach - you've mistaken your personal preference for an overarching principle.

[Name removed]

442. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

443. Jake, you keep admitting you're losing with these ad hominems

Now let's look again:

Arbitrary: Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference.

Why do you think harassment or threat are based on individual judgment or preference rather than a legal definition?

I mean I know it's more convenient for you to just make it up as you go rather than putting out a standard to be met consistently.

In fact let's see if you can come up with one: define harassment.

[purduejake]

445. Laws are sometimes arbitrary.

You don't seem to understand that.

[mondo joe]

449. Jake, what, not a single principle AGAIN?

You can't come up with a single definition or principle?

Define THREAT

Define HARASS

[purduejake]

450. Words are arbitrary.

Why must you only see things as black or white? Why in the hell can their only be one definition for a word? Take up your issue with publishers of dictionaries, not me.

[mondo joe]

452. Lazy Jake, Lazy

Your stance amounts to "a word means whatever I want it to mean to support my argument in a given post, even if I use a contradictory definition in another post because it suits me there".

Fine Jake, if you want to do lazy-boy debate we can resolve things simply: The red stars are a death threat because I say they are, in my purely arbitrary judgment of the situation, and using definitions to mean something vague and unstated.

That means the students should be imprisoned because this isn't free speech but death threats.

[purduejake]

453. The difference between our use of words is that...

mine look at the particular situation to decide what it means. I would challenge you to reasonably answer why you thought the profs got death threats from a student who does not have a violent past and seems to have just been trying to stir up emotions and offend people.

[mondo joe]

456. There you go with your black and white thinking, Jake

Remember, laws and words and understanding - per your posts - are subject to PERSONAL preference and understanding.

My personal understanding is that these are death threats, so by your standard, they are.

You have offered no standard or definition for what is a threat or harassment, and in fact you have refused to do so. The only standard you uphold is personal preference and understanding, which I have applied here. Since it is personal - and don't forget, you say that is the approproate standard - I need not defend it.

[purduejake]

462. Dammit! You fraudulently implied I said something AGAIN.

I don't have the energy to debate somebody who is not willing to have an honest debate. If you decide that you want to debate without doing shit like changing the words of the definition I povided and then making it look like I said something I didn't, contact me. Until then, you're not worth my attention.

[mondo joe]

464. Jake, you're running away from your own words again, Here they are:

Things are arbitrary and contingent on the situation, just like threats made against people.

Arbitrary: Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference.

Laws are sometimes arbitrary.

Words are arbitrary.

[purduejake]

469. never denied saying them

[mondo joe]

478. Yes you did Jake: "You fraudulently implied I said something AGAIN"

Come on - be honest.

[Warpy]

11. Those little fucks should be expelled

College is a place to learn and to explore ideas that are outside one's family and religious comfort zone.

Perhaps they should have stuck to church.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatholicEdHead]

21. They can be challenged in other ways

expulsion should not be the first option, but it should still be an option for the student who did this.

You can challange "liberal" views without a quasi-hate crime intimidation act.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. That type of challenge

is called a debate. What this student did was out of line.

[purduejake]

126. Agreed. It was out of line.

[chomskysright]

487. USE THE COLLEGE'S OWN DUE PROCESS....

[VOX]

30. Challenge the prof's views **in the classroom**...

Not with some chickenshit, after-hours, semi-anonymous hit that "identifies" or "roots out" persons deemed objectionable.

If a right-wing student has a beef with the profs, s/he should have the guts to confront them in the classroom -- on common turf.

[purduejake]

37. Calling somebody a communist in class is okay?

But it's worse to basically accuse them of that with a little memo and red star?

[VOX]

88. Yes -- the classroom is the arena where ideas and opinions are exchanged..

And challenging one's profs can be part of that process -- to engage them in a dialogue about any number of topics, including the student's opinion of the profs' political leanings.

A memo and a red star, etc. **removes** this aspect of exchange, of discussion, and instead, constitutes an aggressive act, done with out the profs' knowledge beforehand.

[purduejake]

127. In otherwords, it was a cowardly act... one with less teeth than

direct confrontation and actual debate because they know they can't challenge a liberal -- I believe just about any liberal view would beat a conservative one.

[Just Me]

91. OMFG!!! "Calling somebody a communist"? Who does that!!!!!!

In case you forgot, we do live in a so-called democracy!!!

We are living in country that rebuked the McCarthy shit you are spewing!!!

EWWWWW,...are you RED in whole new RED light!!!!

GROSS. ME. OUT!!!!!!

[purduejake]

129. For the last time, I defend the freedom of expression.

It would appear as if I am more "liberal" than you -- and that is just an observation. That's fine, I usually agree 100% with people on here including most of the people I am debating with now.

[Just Me]

146. The expression of hatred, like McCarthy did,...is not a freedom,...

,...anyone should embrace. There are responsibilities attached to that freedom of expression you so strongly advocate on behalf of these hate-mongers.

[purduejake]

149. I believe some religions foster hate-mongers...

Would it be fair to shut down their church? I have hate towards people and I want the freedom to express it in a legal manner that does not threaten anybody... even if it is controvercial. That's what freedom is all about. I can't say it enough... you don't have any right not to be offended and I fully support people's right to offend others, even when they are wrong.

[jwirr]

299. I understand your defense of free speech

just as I support the ACLU but I have often shuddered at some of the people they defend. However, exactly how would you suggest protecting ourselves from the result of the hatred this "red star prank" is based on? I have already suggested several ways but when and where do we draw the line? When does it become a hate act? When do we recognize that it is another attempt of the bushies to take over colleges like they have every other section of our lives?

[VOX]

92. "Liberal views?" You are assuming that the GOP students are justified...

somehow in their actions, without even having heard from the professors themselves. Who even knows for sure whether or not their views are, in fact, "liberal?"

[purduejake]

206. Who cares if they are really liberal?

And what exactly do you have to believe in to be liberal anyway. It's pointless to even dispute this in terms of the law because a concensus will never be reached.

[blondeatlast]

101. Of course they can--in the classroom--and they ought to be.

This is just ugly behaviour and eerily reminiscent of Nazi techniques. Read up on Rove's past while you are at it--you'll see why many of us are steamed.

He pretty much BOASTS about his adaptation of Nazi techniques when he helmed the College Republicans.

[purduejake]

207. So what's illegal about this?

It seems as if you thing somebody is arguing that these people aren't creeps.

[mattclearing]

14. Junior McCarthys.

What was it they said about those who fail to learn from history?

[paineinthearse]

50. Coultor's mentor

From her website.....

Did someone say necrophiliac?

[mattclearing]

54. Like peas and carrots. n/t

[illini]

401. Look at that adam's apple.

[jedr]

17. and so it's started;

soon they will need to have these red stars on their clothing and be placed in gethoes...I never thought this could happen

[purduejake]

20. Who's being put in ghettos?

Uh, I thought a paper star was taped to somebody's door.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

26. Read your history

It's a slippery slope, jake.

[purduejake]

34. Yea, so is allowing gays to marry.

Why stop there? It's a slippery slope and next thing you know you get man on dog. The slippery slope arguement doesn't fly.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

42. is that really your best argument?

[purduejake]

45. The slippery slope arguement is bullshit.

Gay marriage, euthanasia, stem cell research, you name it and people can always use a slippery slope arguement. It's the easy way out and holds no water.

[Paul Dlugokencky]

57. Ask Niemöller

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[purduejake]

61. God forbid if they came taping a paper star to my door tomorrow!

[CTPatriot]

216. I hope they do

You obviously don't have a clue how it feels to be publicly branded as one deserving of hatred and contempt, nor do you have any empathy for those who DO know how it feels.

[purduejake]

222. Bullshit.

I'm the big nelly f**got in the flight program at Purdue. But I guess that's not really being branded, is it? I would be happy if I had the luxury of people taping shit to my door. I am stoned at school. My car is keyed. I am the subject of ridicule during class presentations because I am gay. What the fuck would I know about this? A fucking star on my door is the least of my worries... I'd pin the damned thing to my backpack and wear it like a badge.

Don't act like you know me... You have a lot to learn here at DU.

[MadisonProgressive]

234. I'm sorry Jake, but you just don't seem to get it

[drdtroit]

198. The words of Pastor Martin Niemoeller.

He is best known for this powerful statement about the failure of Germans to speak out against the Nazis:

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
-- Pastor Martin Niemoeller, from the Kirchenverwaltung der Evangelischen Kirche in Hessen and Darmstadt

[purduejake]

208. OMG, they're coming to my door tomorrow armed with tape and a star!

NOOOOOO!

[GiovanniC]

264. Hey, That's Fun!

Let me try! "Oh my God, the Nazis are coming armed with yellow stars and armbands! NOOOO!"

You're totally right, mocking people who despise fascism is super ultrafun!

[purduejake]

334. I am "mocking" an over-reaction.

I am not talking about a Nazi organization coming for a Jew. I am talking about students threatening to accuse somebody of breaking a regulation.

[GiovanniC]

347. No, You're Talking About a Nazi Organization Coming For

A perceived "commie". These idiots either understood how marking someone with a colored star was very symbolic of Nazi Germany, in which case they're fucking evil; or they didn't, in which case they're fucking stupid.

But YOU understand the symbolism and chose to mock those it offends.

[purduejake]

348. No no...

I mock their actions. I realize this is offensive to people and I am also offended by it, but to a lesser degree.

These people are "idiots," they're "evil," but they are not really a Nazi Organization. I would call these people Nazis TO BRING UP SYMBOLISM, but they are not people going around rounding up jews and everybody else they don't like and killing them by the millions. I am sorry if you can't understand the difference in offenses.

[GiovanniC]

349. The Offense I'm Referring to Is Yours

I think what the College Republicans did was vile and I do think they should be disciplined.

I think your comments have also been vile.

[purduejake]

352. Yes, freedom of speech protects what you and I think is vile.

Democracy sucks, eh?

[GiovanniC]

359. I Don't Know Where You're Coming Up With the "Democracy Sucks" Part

I am not oblivious to the role that the Freedom of Speech plays in this nation. However, freedom of speech does not guarantee the right of someone to threaten or harass someone. It does protect your right to mock the holocaust though, so have at it.

[purduejake]

393. I never mocked the holocaust...

so don't imply it and stick with the facts if you want an honest debate, okay?

With that said, freedom of speech does guarantee the right of people to express their opinions, especially in public places. You could argue that every time somebody pissed you off, it was harassment and therefore illegal, but that's bullshit. There was no illegal threat and saying that there was a threat of violence is ridiculous. You're making false assumptions about the situation in the red star case and in the case where you just accused me of mocking the holocaust.

[GiovanniC]

474. You're Right, You Only Mocked Holocaust Victims

Oh, no, the Nazis are coming to label me a Jew! I'm soooo scared! Since all they are doing is exercising their free speech and their right to offend and intimidate me!

I am now going to exercise my freedom to label you a moron and leave it at that.

[purduejake]

403. No, I am not mocking people...

I am mocking reactions. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself. People have a right to be offended... that's fine. But when you act like something is some big huge threat and conspiracy to kill you when it clearly is not, I begin to think you are dishonest or delusional.

[purduejake]

446. I was mocking the actions, not the people.

And I despise fascism, so why would I mock myself? I don't get what you are trying to say.

And, actual Nazi organizations chasing an actual Jew with an armband is a little different than posting a red star on somebody's door to bring forth emotion and to offend somebody. I am capable of seeing things realistically and in shades of gray.

[Sapphire Blue]

214. "Then They Came For Me" (Today's version)

by Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.


First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up.


Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California, is indebted to the inspiration of Rev. Martin Niemoller (1937).

http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/Rohde.htm

[SouthernDem2004]

53. Lol, some college idiot is the start of what actually?

[jdots]

19. can't these turd maggots just torture bunnys anymore ?

This will get the little boogers a full scholarship at Pat Robertson University where they can get Bachelor of Ignorance degrees in mercenary wanker fundi insecurity tactical masterbation.

[cindyw]

28. I think this is grounds for expulsion. It is slanderous, threatening and

not to mention disrespectful.

[purduejake]

211. Your opinion of somebody's political preferences...

cannot constitute slander, so what are you talking about. Threatening to have a law enforced and being disrespectful to people you don't agree with is grounds for expulsion? I assume you're talking about some radical private university because public institutions in this country have to at least pretend to allow freedom of speech.

[LittleClarkie]

235. How about destruction of public property then

and I did think there were hate speech laws on the books, though I might be wrong.

Write about it, talk about it, but once you get physical, and this is a physical act of aggression against these teachers, you cross the line.

Or would you argue that placing yellow stars on the Jews was merely the Nazi's way of expressing himself?

[purduejake]

335. What in the hell are you talking about?!?

There are no laws on the books against labeling somebody a communist.

There were no physical threats.

Nobody had any to wear any fucking stars.

You're points are irrelevant. Stick to the damned facts if you want to debate.

[LittleClarkie]

342. The fact is they defaced property

much in the way I saw property here in Wisconsin get defaced with a swastika burned into the lawn. So the residents were labeled Nazis.

Once you deface property in your quest for "free speech" you've crossed over from your own right of expression to someone else's right not to have you deface their property.

[purduejake]

344. No they did not!!!!

They taped something to the door... a door that probably has had hundreds of things taped to it before!

Read the article!

[LittleClarkie]

369. Ah I see now

I bow before you passionately rendered exclamation points.

I still don't like their tactics, though. Reminds me too much of Accuracy in Acedamia. How far to the left these professors are percieved to be shouldn't depend on how far to the right their accusers are. May I at least say I hope that the faculty makes their side of the case with as much force?

[purduejake]

396. Good, I'm glad you now see what the article actually said.

Nobody is arguing for the decency of their tactics. I'd agree that the professors should act on the case with force -- however we probably disagree with the method. I believe professors are their to teach and students are in academia to learn. One solution would be for the office of the dean of students call the students in and have a little chat with them and explain why they think they should not do it again and that they better not cross the line or they will be held accountable per laws and school regulations.

Once that is established, they know the possible consequences the school would be willing to take and can choose to accept the limits or break them. All I want is fairness.

[FizzFuzz]

376. the correct form is "your". Possessive: "your points".

Also, from a previous post of yours, it's "tolerance FOR <specific minority groups>", not "tolerance AGAINST".

Further, in another post you said "Holier than though". The correct spelling would be "thou".


You seem to be so enamored of your own smartosityness, I thought I'd give you some grammar tips.

Oh and by the way, I'm not impressed by your beating your pink-triangled breast repeatedly here, as if that confers upon your views some higher authority as an oppressed person.

[purduejake]

400. You lost the debate.

You can't even respond or criticise my logic so you make personal attacks. How noble. Sorry I am not anal about posts on here because I figure most people are smart enough to figure it out and don't need your help.

My life experiences do have validity and I bring them up when somebody says I don't understand something when they would have no idea if I did or not. You people make stuff up and then criticise me for it as if the information came from me or was true.

[FizzFuzz]

460. you sound petulant n/t

[purduejake]

468. If being pissed about people misquoting me...

is unreasonable, then you're right - I am petulant. Of course what's reasonable is arbitrary and subject to each of our opinions... that renders this debate pointless at this time.

[FizzFuzz]

470. it's just that your foot stamping is corrupting your powers of debate.

IMnotsoHO, the best debate requires that each debater be open to being convinced of the other person's possibly being correct. And then practicing the courage to admit it. Not easy, but it builds character.

No matter whether your position is "better/more enlightened/more truly Democratic than everyone else's" or not--the petulance weakens anything you say. It's erroding your ability to listen to anyone else, unless they parrot your party line.

Debate can't really occur until you're able to calm down.

[purduejake]

471. You're right...

I was just getting pissed and it was taking away from what I was saying. I have honestly considered what people said, thought about it, and then responded. LOL, I am liberal and saying stuff most of you guys disagree with... what party line am I following? hehe.

Anyway, I have admitted when I was wrong on here and would gladly concede if I thought I was wrong at some point. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you are wrong. Maybe we're all wrong... this is all based on opinion, so everybody sees things differently.

And, I will finally concede that in some ways I was getting lazy (as somebody accused me of doing). I was just getting tired of repeating myself over and over and stopped giving each response total thought. It's my flaw and I will accept it and apologize if there are people on here who did not keep forcing me to repeat myself and who deserved better responses. Look how long the post is... I think it has become too much for most of us to handle at this point. Too many topics, tangents, etc. Ugh, I'm worn out! Have a great night!

[cindyw]

380. Expulsion for marking their doors with symbols that say they are communist

I mention disrespectful as a comment not a reason. You have a right to call someone a communist, but you do not have a right to come to their space (office) and plaster it on a door. Just as you can be racist and call someone n......, but if you burn a cross on their yard, that is something else entirely. It is can vandalization and suggests that if you are willing to invade their space and might be dangerous.

[purduejake]

406. I will say it again...

There was no vandalization. Look it up. What is the hell was damaged?!?

[cindyw]

425. So if the cross only burns a 10 in square in the lawn your okay with that?

Okay, whatever you say. If I come to your house and I post a sign in your yard that says "nazi", your okay with that. No wrong has been done to you. Just an exercise of free speech.

[purduejake]

435. No I would not be okay with vandalism...

But if you would like to tape or post a sign in my yard within public right-of-way, that's fine. It's just your opinion and I would only take it down because I am picky about my lawn and wouldn't want people to think that I am a Nazi because I left the sign up. Post whatever you want -- nazi, fascist, freeper, asshole, ass whipe, bonehead, or whatever. People have posted those comments about me and that is fine... they can think whatever they want and I am not going to worry too much about what irrational and/or angry people say.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

255. Don't forget

Cowardly!

[Blue_Tires]

318. very

only a short step before this catches on at other campuses...next, will they go to professor's homes and put the stars there??

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Ugh disgusting

These republicans are so immature. My goodness. Whatever happened to acting like an adult? Respect? Oh that's right. That's out the window in Amerika. I've never seen people SO immature!

[purduejake]

48. I usually find myself in total agreement with most of you...

But I can't believe how many people want suspension for a simple, unpopular statement that threatened nobody physically. It only forced professors to consider if they were being fair in class.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. I don't think

he should get suspension. But he should at least apologize to the teacher for being rude to him. I'm sure we all know what it's like to be treated similiar to this being in this country. Democrats have always had this problem. All the way from JFK to now.

[purduejake]

55. Yea, but are you suggesting they be forced to apologize?

Would that mean anything? It's pointless. If it was an activity of a college organization, then put them on probation. Maybe give the students a warning and explain to them where the line is drawn. College is a learning experience and I often find myself pushing the limits as an activist and extremely liberal person in a conservative town.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

256. Pushing limits as an activist

in a conservative town can make massive strides in opening people's minds. However, it's not really necessary to push anybody's limits here -- we're not a conservative town.

[jdots]

66. I don't want them expelled

I just want to drive up there and show them how it feels to have the shit beat out of them by a 56 year old guy who is very close to the edge with this bullshit facism,you are right expulsion wouldn't fit thier deed and they would become heros to the scummy right wing cowards who have thier brains sucked out along with thier souls .

[purduejake]

212. haha, hopefully they won't hate you for this...

but I like you.

[jedr]

68. being singled out and

then being identified by a red star is a physical threat...college is about ideas and the discussion of said ideas...most tests are blue books, not the memorization of facts...if you want to stay ignorant.. listen to only the ideas that are the same as yours...that's a theocracy; which is what the repugs want us to have

[purduejake]

213. It's a threat of what?

Please be specific because there are legal threats and illegal threats.

[TankLV]

113. Only you think that way. This is but the first step. Read your Nazi

history. They knew damn well what they were doing and intending. Only YOU believe no one was threatened physically with these stars.

You truly are unbelievable.

This is but the latest in a list of steps that this country is taking towards in it's slide into fascism.

Only YOU refuse to see it.

Brownshirts during the 2000 recount, and on Kerry's campaign trail.

And this latest episode.

But YOU refuse to see it.

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VOX]

236. Bullshit. This act crossed the line into harrassment.

Look -- Democrats, liberals, the left, progressives -- whatever we're calling ourselves these days, are under a serious, concerted attack in this country, from the White House on down.

It is NOT -- that's NOT -- okay for some right-wing students to "root out" WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE "Communist" professors.

I cannot fathom why you persist in defending that which is indefensible to anyone who cares about like-minded others and who possesses good survival instincts. There is a clear and present danger now in this country -- that it's okay to start witch-hunts, to intimidate those who are different or who speak out or dissent -- and what these kids did is symptomatic of this.

[kodi]

51. i hate nazis

an education that does not challenge preconceptions is useless.

those nazis are lazy assholes who wish to remain comfortably numb.

[Ellen Forradalom]

56. Wait 'til the first-born of those who did not receive the star die.

Then they'll understand.

(Reference to the Passover story in Exodus.)

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[purduejake]

220. Awwe, can't prove your point?

So you've moved onto the name-calling. I thought this discussion was about the lack of maturity and this is what you have to contribute?

[blondeatlast]

245. Who's calling anyone a name?

I was simply agreeing with Ellen that this is reminiscent of two periods in history--and seriously, you need to sharpen your logic, and read up on Karl Rove's activities in the College Republicans.

Since you obviously missed my point, "ass wipe" is referring to the dimwit who pulled the sick stunt-not you.

I'm sorry if I disappointed you.

[Ellen Forradalom]

329. And I was pointing out the irony of marking a door

since it was by markings on doorposts and lintels that the Israelites were spared in Egypt.

[purduejake]

333. My logic is clear.

The rules apply to everybody equally - That's what it's based on. Sorry if you don't understand the need for equality.

[purduejake]

405. Your forgiven.

HEY NAZI GRAMMAR ENFORCER!! DID YOU SEE THAT?!?

[Cha]

63. And what do we "mark" the College

idiots with?

What do we mark on their "door" to denote what we should beware of from them?

Fascists with a Slash through it!

[Democrat Dragon]

74. College Republican=Hitler Youth

[msongs]

78. star-posting students are alleging ILLEGAL CONDUCT for which.........

a faculty member can be fired from their job at best or be subject to prosecution at worst.

the action, posting a symbol - a red star - and alleging communist affiliation along with illegal behavior, is exactly the same thing the nazis did against communists in their day, and the same as posting stars of david or the infamous yellow star, accusing the person of being jewish even if not.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[purduejake]

81. I've threatened bigoted neocon professors...

with the University Rules and Regulations before and warned that if they continued to express their views about homosexuality in an aerodynamics class, they may be subject to termination. Was I being a Nazi?

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[purduejake]

192. The warnings are up... Attack the idea, not the person.

[mondo joe]

387. Notifying a professor of a concern is not slander

Publically labeling people with a distinction that could cost them their livlihood is harassment.

[ElectroPrincess]

84. I say we give these young republicans a choice ...

Just like the one's that were faced by many of my older brother's buddies:

"Do you wish to serve hard time in jail OR would you like a clean record and the distinguished opportunity to serve your country (In Iraq or Afghanistan)?"

Don't you love it when a plan comes together? <eg>

[snippy]

100. How very republican.

I think all of the faculty members and every student who is a decent American should begin wearing red stars on their clothing.

[rodeodance]

103. The labeling/thrashing others comes from the Whitehouse who set the

example for this kind of behavior!!

[snippy]

106. True. It is pure Bush. Hatred is a republican moral value. n/t

[mitchtv]

130. Lynne Cheney to be precise

she is compiling the blacklist

[sendero]

111. Finally...

... a simple and appropriate solution.

Let the star hangers find out what it feels like to be a ridiculed minority. Excellent!

[purduejake]

221. Oh gawd, are you one of those "compassionate" liberals?

[blondeatlast]

249. What, pray tell, is wrong with being "compassionate" or "liberal?" nt

[purduejake]

343. Nothing.

Sarcasm is waisted on the... nevermind.

[FizzFuzz]

377. that's "wasted" as in "for naught", not "waisted" as in "Weight Watchers"

just helping again.

[purduejake]

397. I see you can't debate me with rationality...

so you resort to the old tactic of changing the subject by bitching about somebody's typo. Thanks for the help because I'm sure nobody else in here knew what I was talking about because of the misspelling. You're so fucking smart.

[FizzFuzz]

461. sorry, but you still sound petulant. n/t

[sendero]

251. No..

... but I'm not a dumbass that doesn't understand how the right uses symbols and images as a primary means to further their cause either.

[purduejake]

332. Neither am I.

I know how strong symbols are and so do most of the liberal activists I know. We use those symbols to further our cause. Maybe we should be locked up. I disagree.

[coffeenap]

108. All of the profs should put a red star on their door---

remember when a whole town did this kind of thing in support of Jews who were targeted?

[purduejake]

132. That's the best idea I've heard all night...

You aren't going to beat these idiots by bitching about them and trying to force them to shut up. They will always find a way to piss you off and ultimately it comes down to a judgment between what is worth fighting and what is not. Personally, I don't think this action is worth a crusade against these people's livelihoods or freedoms. I like to concentrate on stuff that I personally feel matters more. If this is what people want to fight for, I won't stop them... go for it. I really don't like the assholes and it's really none of my concern.... until you guys start going after the people who voted for the war criminal... and then the people leaving a copy of regulations and a star on somebody's door... and then ME for trying to express how I see things. It is then implied that I am all of these things that I am not. I am very liberal and share most of the views with everybody in here, so if I'm so bad the rest of you are guilty by association. I'm done debating this, but everybody realize that we are all fighting for what we believe are democratic and liberal causes and agree on how to go about doing that much more often than not.

[imenja]

155. I had already decided to do that

Any ideas where I can find one? I suppose I could make it myself.

[janx]

167. You might not have to. This doesn't sound like something

the political science major dreamed up by herself. Look for more of it.

[Endangered Specie]

138. I have never understood the logic behind the conservative tactic of

calling profressors "liberal" or "liberally biased", especially political science ones with a large brush.

Think about it...

You are accusing one of the most intelligent groups of people of being, overall, opposed to your own views! Seems kinda odd no? I do agree that professors are liberal... perhaps they KNOW SOMETHING!

[Endangered Specie]

139. I keep trying to deny it to myself... but the more and more I try...

the worse these 'college republicans' do. I know quite a few of them types... its amazing. Comrade Bush can do no wrong!

They are like Hitlers Jugend :crazy:

[juslikagrzly]

140. It's reprehensible behavior

and a constructive response would be for all professors to sport red stars on their doors. Turn it around on them. Red stars stand for academic freedom.

Go with the resistance and use their own energy against them.

As a college professor I am getting just a wee bit nervous about all this focus on "liberal" professors, etc. and while I agree somewhat with the gist of your argument purduejake, I will state emphatically that we must take a stand and admit that we are intolerant of intolerance. Paradoxical huh?

[ailsagirl]

141. That's Dem representative Lynn Woolsey's district

Woolsey is working for election reform, along with Boxer.

Santa Rosa is in Sonoma County, which is one county above liberal Marin County, and two counties above San Fracisco County, FYI...

[smoogatz]

142. First they came for the intellectuals

David Horowitz and his little cadre of brownshirt thugs are doing everything they can think of to silence leftist professors at universities all over the country. But we are an ornery lot and not much inclined to be intimidated by a bunch of puling little rightwing milktoasts. In the immortal words of the President, Dick Cheney, they can go fuck themselves.

[janx]

153. Yep. It's an extension of the "Conservative Bill of Rights,"

of the targeting of Churchill, all of it.

But I have to wonder: What were the criteria? How did these students decide which instructors were "liberal" and which weren't?

[smoogatz]

165. B- or below, you get a red star.

It's all about punishing professors you don't like, or who have the temerity to give you the grade you actually deserve.

[lolly]

179. Criteria?

Any professor who asks you to read and respond to anything that doesn't align 100% with your world view deserves a red star.

Even asking these people to study an opposition argument so that they can refute it intelligently gets you into trouble. You're not supposed to imply that there ARE any arguments out there on the other side.

I'm not exaggerating; I have had students like this.

[IndianaGreen]

145. The GOP wants to turn the clock back to the 1950s

They want TV shows in which a husband and wife wear heavy pajamas and sleep in separate beds, if not separate rooms, like Ozzie and Harriet.

It appears that now they also want to resurrect the glory days of Joe McCarthy.

What's next, loyalty oaths?

[FuzzyDicePHL]

262. Loyalty oaths?

Didn't ppl already have to sign a loyalty oath to get into some of the campaign rallies for rethuglikkkans last fall? Loyalty oaths for loyal oafs.

[imenja]

154. I'm going to get a red star and put it on my door at school

The way to disempower such symbols is to appropriate them.

[zulchzulu]

157. Wow. A Santa Rosa Junior College Repug Club...talk about stupid...

Farm kids of hippy parents who did too much Meth and classic rock after working at the Taco bell on the strip in high school...

Don't give these knucle-dragging fuckweeds any publicity.

If I was a professor there, I'd make sure to have plenty of Army sign-up sheets available for the Repug kiddies.

[Anakin Skywalker]

160. My ORIGINAL Take on This. Hope You Like.

I think this was just an innocent attempt by the College ReTHUGlicans at hinting that these professors give them stars like how their elementary teachers used to do. These little brats haven't outgrown the grade-school mentality, see?

:)

[zulchzulu]

161. Make sure to have plenty of ROTC literature available for the Repug kids

If I had gotten a red star on my door, I'd immediately go down the hall to the ROTC office and make sure to have plenty of the Army brochures available for those that want to stop by and gawk at the star.

Let's see who really backs the GOP...

[Anakin Skywalker]

169. Yes! I Agree! Let's See the Rethugs

walk the walk! These spoiled punks need to sign up at once for the Great War waged by their Supreme Holiness G.W. Bush that they support. Little chickenhawksh*ts!

[Virginian]

164. What is the opposite of the red star? A swastika? n/t

[annabanana]

239. sadly, yes...

If there were to be a straight "tit for tat" against these students, a swastika would be the right thing, as the most identifiable symbol of fascism. But since it has been used (since WWII) strictly as an "anti Jewish" symbol, it's use in this case wouldn't be appropriate.

I think that perhaps the next-most identifiable symbol might be the "SS" patch, with a red circle and line superimposed on it.

[LiberalPersona]

168. Not surprising

College republicans are the worst brand.
I would consider that a threat.

[LittleClarkie]

170. How left they are depends on how far to the right you're standing

Reminds me of Accuracy in Acedemia, the pathetic offshoot of Accuracy in Media.

[dansolo]

171. Should someone put a swastika on her door?

If she is so gung-ho about marking people, then she should be marked by her own ideology as well.

[ComerPerro]

174. Find the dorm rooms of College Rethugs, write "coward" on the door

Actually, that's not a bad idea.

Maybe try to get some copies of enlistment forms, then write "Coward" in Yellow. Put it on their door...

[Guaranteed]

182. I grew up in Sonoma County- this is the heart of liberalism

in California, too. Whatever fascist piece of shit...Molly McPherson, it looks as if her name is...has some serious cajones.

I say lambast her.

[WiltedFlowerChild]

183. The sons and daughters

of Joe McCarthy are alive and well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

186. As a former academic who had colleagues get hate messages on their

doors, I cannot see this kind of "hit and run" taunting as a harmless prank. It is not a "harmless prank" when a professor has "kill the Jew" scrawled on his message board or a female colleague finds a pornographic photo pinned to her door.

It was not a "harmless prank" when someone went to my study carrel in the Yale Library thirty years ago and wrote anti-Asian slogans all over the books and notebooks I kept there.

Only cowards do stuff like that.

If the Santa Rosa students think the professors' ideas are so out of line, let them find facts (not transcripts from Fox News) to refute them with and construct logical arguments.

I suspect that the student in this case (or a friend or two of hers) got a bad grade from a philosophy or poli sci professor because of turning in a paper consisting of undocumented ditto spew or referencing only right-wing sources. (I saw papers like that as a reader for senior honors theses.) My comments always said something like, "You can believe anything you want. But in an academic paper, you have to understand all sides of a question and substantiate your opinion with facts."

Right wing students hated that.

[pedestrian]

187. This is comparable to posting swastikas

on the doors of conservative professors - but I don't think these students should be expelled for it. It might be a good idea to establish an explicit rule against posting anything on professors' doors, with the consequences for violations of the rule clearly spelled out. But this time I just think the students should be called in for a talk with some of these professors, some victims of McCarthyism, and some Jews. The students probably just don't have nearly enough sense of history to understand why this 'branding' makes historically-minded people feel sick, why they are at a loss of strong enough words to describe their reaction.

The Pedestrian

[baron j]

188. My visceral reaction is that this is harrassment. If they'd

stuck the moranic, immature, sad-attempt-at-an-epithet "libtard" on those doors, I might view it as an asinine prank. But we all recognize the feelings stirred up by the spectre of McCarthy. An essay of apology to those professors is in order.

[NNguyenMD]

189. outrage and punishment will only matyr them and get them the media

attention they wanted. Don't think that they didn't already think this through. This is precisely what they want. If an open debate format held on campus is what they're asking for (what they really want is media attention), I say that a public debate is precisely what we should give them. It takes away their ability to frame what the professors represent.

Mind you that open discussion is not what these Repubs want, its provocation and sensationalism. Its not far from the goals terrorist seek in committing attacks. Its draws attention, and causes widespread unspecific fear, its meant to scare students into thinking that they're being indoctrinated without knowing it.

Open debate format, one guy from their team, one guy from our team, broadcasted on campus close circuit TV, and independent fact checkers to keep everyone honest is a solution worth looking into. It'll totally throw the College Republicans off too, since they'll be expecting outrage and get an open ear and honest discussion instead.

[Zerex71]

190. What next? Stars, numbers, and catcalls of "Juden!"

I mean, how far off is it?

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

193. Damn. Aren't they the ones always complaining about tactics like this

from the Left? I wonder how they'd feel if liberal students started marking conservative professors as Fascists? Wouldn't like that at all, I'd bet. Oh well. Getting upset over this only gives these nitwits credibility. I'd say ignore it, and don't give them what they want.

[magellan]

196. Imenja's idea of appropriating the symbol is the best response

Young or old, Rethugs are adept at stealing power from people by dividing them. Take that away and they're reduced to their essence: whiny, hate-filled brats who can only stomp their feet in frustration.

The other instructors at Santa Rosa should show a united front by putting red stars on their own doors.

[Sapphire Blue]

205. Curious that RED is associated with both Communists & Republicans

Perhaps these ambitious young republicans should just tattoo red stars on their own damn foreheads, volunteer to fight & pay for their Great Leader's wars, pay off his astronomical deficit, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

[flyarm]

215. kick those kids asses out now!! n/t

[purduejake]

223. YEA! Get rid of dissent in our public institutions!

Damned kids.

[flyarm]

225. thats not dissent ..its

mc carthyism!!
they can dissent in shcool papers, or assemble and discuss it with the professors or deans...what they did is fascism!

fly

[purduejake]

331. I fail to see how expressing a point of view is fascism.

Nobody was threatened with harm. People were pissed off and offended. I piss off the religious right and offend them every day -- and they are the ones running this country and I am not being locked up and expelled! If I was, I'd make every effort to flee the country and run to someplace with stronger civil rights, like maybe Mexico.

[sonicx]

365. Would you be OK with christians marking the doors of atheists?

[purduejake]

402. That question made me think... thank you...

for actually bringing up debate instead of checking the grammar of my posts like others. I really do appreciate it... Now I will respond.

I would not be okay with marking people based on religion. Religion is interesting because there are all kinds of Christians. If they simply want to "mark" my door with information about a religious gathering, that would be fine. However, if it was done by a religious organization or person known to mark people like abortion doctors before slaughtering them, it would not be okay. There is a difference and if you cannot differentiate between things... you see just black and white like... uh neo-cons do, there is nothing I can possibly do to help you.

[fleabert]

229. I'd like to offer my support of your position and methods!

You've been attacked a lot, and supported a little for your response on this thread, so here's some support to tip the scales a bit. I think you are right on target here. Free speech is free speech, and while disgusting, this behavior was not illegal. Lest we forget that this was not elected officials placing a star on someone's house, it was a student, bitching about teachers.

If my governer, an asshole, posted a red star on my front door, I'd be freaking out; but this can be settled with the local student Dem group handing out red stars to every student and teacher that supports the 'suspected communists'. These were dumb kids doing a dumb, but not illegal thing.

Should there be a response? Yes. Should it be handled by the courts? No. Unless the school finds that some law was broken.

Big Kudos to you for sticking it out in this thread.

[Sapphire Blue]

315. Would you also support

your neighbors posting a red star on your front door, if you, for example, were a known representative or member of NION or ANSWER? What if quite a few of your neighbors were obviously supportive of the posting of this red star on your front door, and no one spoke out against this action? What if this led to someone burning a cross in your front yard next week? What if your children went to school with their children.... might you worry about your children's safety? Would you be able to sleep at night?

Perhaps it's helpful to walk a mile in another's moccasins.


Today's version of....


Then They Came for Me

by Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.


First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California, is indebted to the inspiration of Rev. Martin Niemoller (1937).

http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/Rohde.htm

[fleabert]

319. did you read my post?

yes. I would be upset. This didn't happen on private property. I said there should be a response, and it should be led by the school, not us or anyone else. This is very closely tied to free speech and should be handled very carefully. Emotional reactions to thoughts and ideas that we don't like end up with book burnings and the like.

Supporting free speech means supporting speech you don't like. They wanted to call attention to speech they didn't like, now everyone is talking about it. Was it ugly, yes. Was it illegal? No. Should it be illegal? I don't know.

Read, people.

[Sapphire Blue]

326. Yes, I read your post

I agree that the response should be led by the school.

I also believe that the right not to be attacked by hate speech or hate actions anywhere needs wide societal support.

As far as the legality of these kinds of actions, hate crime legislation should be revisited regarding the targeted groups covered under the law.

As far as responding emotionally to your post, yes, I did. It’s a very personal issue to me. I shall now read a book, rather than burn one.

Peace.

[fleabert]

382. thanks for your response...

We seem to agree, mostly! I love it when that happens. I have no trouble pouncing on the stupidity of those responsible and questioning their motives and letting them know that it is thisclose to labelling that occured in Hitler's reign, but as of today, what they did was legal.

Should political affiliation make one part of a protected class? I'm not sure about that. If we take a step back and apply that law to ourselves, then the words we use so often here to describe and label our political opponents might become illegal. I know I want to be able to call a spade a spade, when and where I see one. Would I put up a brown circle on the doors of those I want the world or community to know are assholes? doubtful.

What this person was trying so clumsily to say was not that these professors are liberal, but that she believed they were promoting Communism in class, a class she paid for. If I had a professor promoting facism in class, I'd be pissed as shit! I'd handle it differently, but who is to say that she didn't go thru other channels first and wasn't heard? I don't know enough of the situation prior to this event to be judge, jury, and executioner. I'd want the same benefit of doubt if I were in her shoes.

Anyway, this kind of discourse is essential to figuring this stuff out. I am not above saying that my mind could be changed with new perspective or information, so my door is open. :-) I know a lot, but I don't know everything.

[mondo joe]

390. A legit complaint is not the same as threats and a smear campaign

These professors were in effect threatened to be labeled communists in a state with regulations regarding teaching of communism.

It's akin to identifying a teacher as gay - whether he is or not - in a religious school that opposes homosexuality.

Free speech and harassment are not the same thing.

[fleabert]

415. that's true, and why it should, at this point, be left to the school

to work out...there are intricacies to this case to which we are not privy.

The government placing physical identifiers on citizens is very different from students labelling professors.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

345. Take your straw man elsewhere

These idiots have been bitching about "leftist bias" for ages and NOBODY suggested they be expelled for that.

But branding professor door with red stars??? That's SO reminiscent of Nazi tactics it isn't even funny!

It's indefensible. There's only ONE reason I can conceive you see no problem with that, but I'd rather keep my mouth (fingers) shut about it lest this post be deleted.

[purduejake]

404. I believe the Nazi's actually had a plan to harm people...

that they marked. Don't act like this girl fires up an oven and kills people by the millions after she marks them. She does not. She wanted to make a point and it was stupid what she did. To be so fearful is not reasonable. Nobody in the situation was afraid of being assaulted or having something illegal done to them. The only people scared for their lives is a bunch of people on here taking things out of context and blowing them out of proportion. Get that?

NOBODY WHO HAD A RED STAR ON THEIR DOOR FELT LIKE SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO GUN THEM DOWN OR BEAT THEM!!! THAT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE AS TO WHAT LEVEL THIS OFFENSE WAS.

[mondo joe]

409. Jake, why do you think physical harm is the only real threat?

Look up the Blacklist.

There are plenty of ways to threaten and harass people.

[purduejake]

412. That is not my position... stop making shit up!

DAMN! I have never argued that this is not a threat! I've NEVER argued that, so don't pretend like I did. However, there are LEGAL threats and ILLEGAL threats. GET THAT IN YOUR BRAIN. That is my point, this threat was not illegal because it did not carry a realistic or credible threat of physical harm. That's as simple as I can make it for you.

[mondo joe]

414. Jake, you repeatedly state that it WOULD be a threat IF it were

a cross burning because it's from a group known to beat people up or kill them, and ditto swastikas.

Whenever the point of threat is brought up you resort to the argument that this can't lead to being killed or beaten.

And look at what you say right here: "That is my point, this threat was not illegal because it did not carry a realistic or credible threat of physical harm".

I'm telling you again, there are threats - illegal ones - that don't include specific threats of physical harm.

[purduejake]

418. Yea there are threats -- illegal ones...

but this is not one of them. It does not carry the weight of swasticas or flaming crosses because there is no reasonable reason to think it is a physical threat given the nature of the offender and her true intent.

[mondo joe]

422. Again, physical threat is not the only threat. Wish you could learn that,

Nor is it the only illegal threat.

Threats of workplace reprisal, of blackmail, etc are real and illegal.

I don't know why you persist in shrieking "not a physical threat" as if that's the only sort of threat.

[purduejake]

426. Okay, this is the last reply you get.

I am tired of repeating myself over and over again. Read my posts before you reply them, please. How many times do I have to shriek that there are physical threats and legal threats before it registers in your head? Those kinds of threats include many types... I don't know how you feel it's okay to act like I said stuff I didn't and then criticize me for your delusion.

[mondo joe]

428. I'd like you to stop repeating yourself also.

There are physical threats and non physical threats.

There are legal threats and illegal threats.

And what you keep forgetting is that the legal status of threats is subject to change.

[purduejake]

430. I never forgot that...

In fact I was the first to bring it up. Things need to be seen in shades of grey... they need to be seen realistically and therefore a red star on somebody's door is not always legal or illegal. The legality is subject to change based on the intentions and credibility of a claim of physical threat.

Read my posts before you accuse me of forgetting something that I seem to be the only one in the room can comprehend.

[mondo joe]

436. No Jakey, the legality is subject to change based on changing

understanding of the law and the nature of the threat. Once again: A burning cross wasn't illegal, then it was. In fact it was a more overt threat when it WASN'T illegal.

And again you keep thinking physical threats are the only illegal ones: "The legality is subject to change based on the intentions and credibility of a claim of physical threat."

Bucko, you've forgotten a whole lot of other illegal, non physical threats.

[purduejake]

438. My decision is based on logic.

And is sensitive to each situation, Joey. Your misinterpretations about my positions are unfortunate, Bucko.

[mondo joe]

441. Not logic at all. Just your arbitrary whims, as you've admitted.

You've already admitted your arbitrary approach, which by definition is not logical.

[purduejake]

444. Well... lets look at my actual positions...

People should be allowed to freely use offensive speech. That's logical because I want the right to say and do things that other people think is offensive... like hold hands with my boyfriend in the mall.

Another position is that acts need to be looked at with individual judgment (check the definition). Things are not always black and white. I guess it would be difficult to use logic to make that statement, but please mix up my positions on each topic.

[mondo joe]

447. Jake, things need to be looked at with a consistent standard

Not arbitrary ones, which are what you use.

A consistent standard doesn't mean things are only black or white - but it does mean there's something other than your whim as the basis of judgment.

You can't even keep a consistent topic in your own thread - you bandy about whether offensive speech SHOULD be considered hate speech then jump to whether or not it IS, then use HATE SPEECH and ILLEGAL interchangeably. Tch tch.

But your inconsistency is not something you'll easily give up because it suits your lazy debate style.

Try defining your terms and sticking to them, or you'll always sound like an angry boy with attention deficit disorder.

[purduejake]

451. I do use consistent standards and that is why people have attacked me.

I feel that if liberals are allowed to legally express views that some find offensive, then so should the god damned neo-cons... as much as I hate them.

That's principle and most of the time you guys stick to it.

[mondo joe]

454. First you're for arbitraryness, then consistency. And still responding!

Let's see, first you argue in another post that the world is arbitrary, the law is, words are, you are...

And then you say you've been consistent.

And in a thread in which you already said you wouldn't respond to me!

Very inconsistent Jake.

Now people are by and large allowed to express views some find offensive. That's not the question at all.

The question here is not whether the act was offensive, but if it was harassing in such a way that it a) violates the code of conduct at the school; b) violates laws or SHOULD be found to do either of those things.

[purduejake]

457. I am perfectly consistent with each issue...

You want to attack my position and are lazy so you simply take certain positions I have on each issue and then act like I had one position on on another issue.

[mondo joe]

458. That's quite impossible since you can't identify a consistent

standard for threat, harassment or much of anything else.

Frankly, I don't think you're up to it.

[purduejake]

466. You're right about one thing...

I'm not up to people who use dishonest debate tactics and misquote me and there are too many of those people in here. I'm done.

[purduejake]

467. If you want to reframe the question...

Then you should let me know before acting like we were debating something we weren't. BYE BYE

[mondo joe]

479. Not reframing - just organizing your multiple takes for you

Since you can't seem to keep the many variations you use straight, I'm organizing them FOR you.

[Name removed]

455. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

459. I'd expect you to focus better if you were on Adderall, frankly.

[purduejake]

465. Oh I have been perfectly focused...

just because you disagree with me doesn't mean that I am not focused. Hell, I've made more posts on here than anybody else because I am focused.

[ArtVandaley]

355. That's an authoritarian position

This is still America, and I won't play the freeper game of "punish those I disagree with." There should be heated debate on college campus's, even over the top stuff like this.

[mondo joe]

391. Targetting employees for a smear campaign is not debate.

Debate never includes anonymous threats and intimidation.

[Enquiringkitty]

217. It's starting already. First the fundamental right wants to censor those

who actually think, and now it has spread to the right wing students censoring the teachers. I can see how this would make them nervous. It would be a very large jump to a threat.

The big deal is that this is the next generation of voters and lawmakers, doctors, preachers, teachers, everyone who shapes the nation. The day may well come that we can only remember freedom as we know it instead of exercise it.

[Binka]

230. I just email my mentor and friend at SRJC

He teaches history there and is a great man and good friend. I asked for the lowdown as The Press (REPRESSED) Democrat is a puke rag. He will give me the real skinny. BTW IMHO the Sylvia Wasson the article quotes is a Nazi HAG. I had a dust up with her when I was editor of the SRJC paper.

You guys might remember the poli-sci prof who was hassled by the FBI (over an assignment of writing a threatening email to Bush) and who subsequently was found dead in his Guernville home last November was a teacher at SRJC. His name was Michael Ballou and he was my poli-sci teacher and friend. The very last class I took at SRJC was his.

This is a WONDERFUL school but the Dean (Robert Agrella) is a fascist and his policies are worrisome. I once referred to his strong armed tactics as Agrella-Warfare in an article for the paper. No love between me and Bob.

[blondeatlast]

246. Please do keep us informed. Thank you. nt

[Binka]

247. I Just Started My Own Thread Check It Out

Come give it a jump start before it sinks a quick death.

[Blue Belle]

298. Yes... please post after you hear back from your friend.

[B Calm]

232. Wow, history knows how to repeat itself. and they get PO when we

call them NAZI'S...

[Bark Bark Bark]

238. Already Argued To Death, But MyDD Has Interesting Details

http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/3/2/194246/9774#comment_top

They link to, and discuss, this li'l bit from 2001:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1213-05.htm

Lynne Cheney-Joe Lieberman Group Puts Out a Blacklist
by Roberto J. Gonzalez

AN aggressive attack on freedom has been launched upon America's college campuses. Its perpetrators seek the elimination of ideas and activities that place Sept. 11 in historical context, or critique the so-called war on terrorism.

The offensive, spearheaded by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, a Washington-based group, threatens free speech, democratic debate and the integrity of higher education. In an incendiary report, "Defending Civilization: How Our Universities Are Failing America," the American Council claims that "colleges and university faculty have been the weak link in America's response" to Sept. 11. It also asserts that "when a nation's intellectuals are unwilling to defend its civilization, they give comfort to its adversaries."

The report documents 117 campus incidents as "evidence" of anti-Americanism. More than 40 professors are named, including the president of Wesleyan University, who suggested in an open letter that "disparities and injustices" in American society and the world can lead to hatred and violence.

While we're all arguing about the Brownshirts, we're ignoring Hitler and Gobbels.

[cosmicdot]

489. thanks for the mydd link

"Even after revealing themselves, they have not offered a single substantive example of how the ten professors were observed 'inculcating communism'."

I really don't know what it is that these students want to hear or not hear ... if it's 'indoctrination', it certainly isn't working ...

if anything, opposing views might improve their antithetical skills

do they want history lessons saying Hitler was right?

that the working class in America didn't deserve better working conditions?

that TR shouldn't have bust trusts?


do they want 2 versions of the same course set up:
Philosophy 101 for the Narrow-minded and Philosophy 101 for everyone else ...

there were, what, 10 profs singled out by this student? ... are these all profs she had, or did she have to conspire with others? She's "president" of her campus chapter.

The future Karl Roves are sharpening their devious skills ... and, when we have a congressman from Nevada making irresponsible remarks about "liberals" ... a Governor of Michigan inferring that Democrats are terrorists ... and FL congressman Feeney throwing a fundraiser to celebrate Dan Rather's overthrow ... it all sets an example, a tone ...

If fear is instilled in just one person through this act, it's one too many. Instilling fear, intimidation, threatening are acts of terror.

Can't have civil discourse with the republicans these days ... they're the radicals

[slor]

241. And yet people get upset...

with comparisons to the Third Reich.

[Maestro]

243. Friggin' disgusting

Must think like I do or else...rethuglican mantra.

[zalinda]

253. The last line in the article

got to me.

"McPherson said the Republicans hope to hold a public forum on the issue. "One-sided education is indoctrination," she said."

Wouldn't you say this is what is happening in our media?

zalinda

[The Backlash Cometh]

254. Vandalism and intimidation.

Like the yellow stars they gave Jews during the Nazi era. These Republicans don't fall far from the tree.

[MojoXN]

257. Well sir,

I think that this bunch are a bunch of fucking retards to try to consciously intimidate liberal professors. But not necessarily because I find the concept somewhat repugnant, which I do. More so because, like nearly all of the Bushy's 'clever' tactics, they end up backfiring on them. This one looks like it's already started to boomerang. Now there's national media attention making this band of students look foolish at best, and downright criminal at worst. Were I one of the afflicted professors, I would use the incident to make my political views more vocal and present them to what may otherwise have been a largely apolitical audience. In other words, I would use this as a catalyst to spread progressive views. Starting with, oh, I don't know, "You'll notice that there are those who wish to censor me. That is not the American way. We have the right to express our opinions, of course, but only a facist wishes to resort to intimidation, or restrict the expression of political views which are not the same as their own."

I should think that this would be rather effective.

MojoXN

[blondeatlast]

258. Developing; here's another thread with an interesting twist on

the story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1635034

[leesa]

259. Those students should be suspended or kicked out.

[Stuckinthebush]

267. Post it with pride!

I would love to see those 10 professors keep the red stars as a sign of pride, and then have their colleagues all put red stars on their doors as a sign of solidarity.

Foolish children. You go to college to learn to think. If you want to stay ignorant, watch FOX News.

[Totentanz]

271. Stars

I sent an e-mail to the college republicans at Santa Rosa asking for a star and notice of my own to put on my office door.

I haven't read through all of the discussion but I can say that this could definitely be intimidating. Most of these people are identified in the article as instructors meaning they are probably not all full-time faculty. As community college instructors they get term by term contracts for each class they teach. Anyone wanting to do a good job or writing a new class is making less per hour than minimum wage. Many of them live in poverty. These are not the opinionated tenured professors you remember from college. I doubt many of them have been saying anything too radical.

For the last twenty years, conservative donors have been funding political clubs and newspapers on campuses across the country. People remember college as a very liberal place, but it just isn't true. Conservatives have destroyed that atmosphere and now they want to turn colleges into crucibles for their agenda by attacking any thing that smells leftist.

The e-mails for many of the people discussed are easily available. I urge everyone to write to the college in support of free speech. Personally I think the college republicans should be shut down. Oftentimes these groups get additional money from student fees programs. Everyone is paying them to spew their threats and hatred.

[Stuckinthebush]

279. Welcome to DU!

As for the more conservative nature of colleges and universities, I concur. I teach adjunct for a large university, and I have experienced push back from Ph.D. students when discussing critical social theories. We had a long discussion about what it means to be a Ph.D. and that they need to start opening their minds a bit more. I have made great strides with these students, but I can imagine that undergraduates are less likely to open up if they are ideologically closed. This is especially true if they are members of a large conservative organization that lends support to their close minded view of the world.

When academicians stand together against the type of intimidation displayed in this story, then they can teach the thousands of other open minded students a valuable lesson. Those few closed minded students who cause the majority of trouble can be marginalized.

[Binka]

283. Here is SRJC's Website

http://www.santarosa.edu/

It is easy to navigate and has a lot of contact information.

See my other thread about the FBI and a poli-sci prof's suspicious death in November 2004. He was an adjunct professor a part timer who was always treated shabby by admin at SRJC.

[humanriteswritlarge]

272. My husband is a college professor

and I can guarantee you that if someone put red stars on certain professors' office doors, it would be taken as a sign of intimidation and suppression of ideas. If the person/s responsible are identified, they should be at least put on academic probation or expelled for trying to intimidate professors. That is the only point in this whole discourse---intimidation without any kind of discussion. The purpose is to make the professors fearful of what they are encouraging their students to consider. Being a college student means exposing oneself to different ideas. But trying to limit what those ideas are is really, really obnoxious. We will follow this story with interest. And I think the idea of all the other students wearing red stars in support of their professors is an outstanding idea.

[Stuckinthebush]

280. Welcome!

Yes, those stars are an attempt to intimidate professors. Since the perpetrator put the stars up anonymously, it is a clear act of intimidation. This student needs to be severely reprimanded for this action.

I think that this episode can be used as a teaching moment for professors at this school. They can point to it to illustrate a number of concepts - freedom of speech, academic freedom, intimidation, the need for critical thought, an understanding of what "educated" means, etc. I hope that the faculty circles around those "starred" and supports them through in class discussions and out of class statements of solidarity.

[janetle]

288. So is my husband who lives in his office

And frankly, he lives in his office and it is like his second home. This is such a disturbing story. It makes me personally afraid. A few years ago, a disgruntled student who was having severe emotional problems managed to easily and legally buy a hand gun and he killed his professor in his office in my husband's building.

This is private space--geez--this is just so disturbing.

[mondo joe]

395. I agree completely. This is threat and intimidation, nothing more.

There are legit channels for students to make complaints.

There are public forums in which heated debate can take place, even on the quality and content of education.

This was nothing but a smear campaign.

[sinkingfeeling]

268. Hey Jake, I agree with you! This was a vile thing to do, but I do

not see it as a cause for suspension. The community, in this case SRJC, will discuss the ethics of the 'crime' and probably, after some soul-searching, realize that the action was unacceptable. I also 'mark' people by holding up signs calling Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc. 'fascist' and 'killers'.

[Richard Steele]

273. Holding up a sign is one thing.

Do you anonymously tape those signs to their office doors in the dead of night?
DIFFERENT.

[sinkingfeeling]

325. I would, if I could....can you get me a White House pass??

[Name removed]

269. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[larryepke]

274. What's the matter?

Is cross burning out of fashion? Has the Black Hand lost it's effectiveness?

[MsTryska]

275. is it okay if soemone marks their dorm room doors

with swastikas in return?


i think that's a freakin good idea.

[Larkspur]

277. Agree. Let's see how this college Repuke likes a swastika on her door

[jwirr]

313. And then we have dropped to her level. Take the high ground.

[Larkspur]

366. Taking the high ground got Dems boosted out of power

I say fight fire with fire and mark the Repukes for what they are -- fascists.

[mondo joe]

385. You mean the winning level?

[ekwalsy]

285. triangle colors

black anti-socials and/or gypies; blue emigrants; green criminals; pink homosexuals; purple jehovah's witnesses; RED political prisoners; yellow two overlaping jews; it is a hate crime

[GOPBasher]

286. What a bunch of infintile losers. nt

[CatBoreal]

290. Here's a link to ...

the faculty list at Santa Rosa.
http://www.santarosa.edu/faculty_staff/pdf/faculty.pdf

It might be a nice thing to do to write them a letter of support.

This scares me. If these people feel free to harass and intimidate their teachers for teaching from a different political view from theirs, how long before they start attacking the members of the biology department for teaching evolutionary theory because that doesn't mesh with their religious views?

[UL_Approved]

488. This is a damn good question

The march to "revise" science is a disturbing trend that we will see in the future as a primary practice in this nation. We will get to have a situation somewhere between NAZI Germany's pseudo-Christian society and the anti-Enlightenment attitude of Medieval Europe. This trend, I hate to say it, will only stop when people are willing to fight it. This may involve a revolution of some sort. But hopefully, we heed the lessons of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr...

[prodigal_green]

291. gawd, the ignorance

kids who are in college today have little to no memory of communism or what it is. To them, it is simply, "stuff I don't like" or anything to do with labor rights.

Any professor who teaches anything but the whitehouse line is a communist? The facts of labor abuse in American history are just that, FACTS. Just because you don't like ugly history doesn't mean you shouldn't learn about it.

These people are brownshirts and should be exposed as such.

Could you imagine if the professors got together and produced a list of students who were ignorant conservatives, creationists and disruptors and published it in the school paper or posted it around campus? They'd all be fired.

[tom_paine]

297. What? No Yellow Stars?

Fucking Nazis

[joeprogressive]

300. College Republicans in Junior College

Is equivalent to high school bullies giving wedgies in the locker room. They are mental midgets compared to the people they tried to defame.

[CTLawGuy]

301. I have one thing to say

College Republicans are NOT the government!

I see a lot of people on this thread saying "what will happen next?"

These are a bunch of spoiled kids defacing the doors of professors they don't like.

It is NOT the same thing as A GOVERNMENT ENTITY in Nazi Germany forcing Jews to wear stars on their clothing.

Comparing this to Nazi Germany trivializes what happened in Nazi Germany. You people should think about what you are saying.


Now, if it were the FBI or homeland security forcing professors to wear stars, then we should get worried.

The College Republicans are no more powerful than my high school student council.

[Skidmore]

306. In this day when the Republican government practically

owns the nations media and pays off church leaders for support, who knows where this bunch gets its support.

[CTLawGuy]

309. you're right

who knows :shrug:

but somehow I don't think they're working for Homeland Security.

[AnneD]

346. there is no trivialization intended, but think on this......

the brown shirts (and the wanna be junior auxillary) started blocking the Jews path. Harmless really- you just ignored it-they will go away. It is just a little thing really. Then they start blocking your path, maybe knocking your books or parcels out of your hand, maybe tripping you and laughing when you fell. Don't say anything, they might get mad and hurt you. Don't bother calling the authorities, cause it's your word against all of them. Next thing you know, they are taking you into an alley and beating the crap out of you. That star you just got issued is a hunting license and you are fair game. It is a short trip from bulling to work/reeducation/extermination camps. I don't intent to wait for homeland security to start issuing id cards to start protesting. They will give as much crap as you are willing to take. Wake up and smell the fascism. This is the first baby goose steps.

[LynneSin]

302. Found: Yearbook photo of the college students who did this...

[Bridget Burke]

305. No--these Young Nazis are in uniform.

How many of the Young Republicans support the war in Iraq--& any other war their fearless leader cooks up?

How many will ever wear a uniform?

[thinking is sexy]

307. tongue-in-cheek, check

This seems to be an alarming trend. At my alma mater, there is a disturbing group called Young Conservatives of North Texas who keep holding media-seeking stunts/demonstrations at SMU or at UNT. Their 'Capture an Illegal Immigrant Day' caused a stir recently. Before that, they married cats and dogs and squirrels and rocks, etc. to protest civil unions/gay marriage. Their website once (and may still) listed "liberal" professors at the college. Which isn't as direct a marking as the red star but still unsettling to consider.

There had been suggestions that some mandatory tolerance seminar might be in order for the offending students, but while a good idea, it would probably be ineffective. These kids already seem well-set in their narrow-minded ways. There's hope for change but I don't think it will be through the students. It may lie with the professors.

It seems that the targeted professors are taking the response I myself would take ... which would be to turn their symbol back on them. We should all grab the word 'liberal' back from the negative spin conservatives have spewed all over it and wear it proudly. Either in conversation or literally -- a button, a tshirt, a star, whatever.

Did these students cross a line of free speech? Is this a startling premonition of the societal trend towards nationalism/fascim?

(The societal trend, by the way, is far worse than government-mandated fascism ... as Eddie Izzard jokingly points out, Mussolini told Italians they were fascists but all they wanted to do was to ride around on scooters and say "Ciao!" -- they were gatheing in masses to inform on their neighbors and wear matching uniforms and stamp out all free thinking/speech ... apparently a growing number of young people in this country would be happy to participate in such activities.)

I don't think we'll agree on an answer to either of the questions posed above, but I think that we can agree that something must be done to protect the rights of all Americans to hear, read and understand many sides to every argument, and the only place that's being taught right now is on university campuses.

It's out of the press, it's out of the government ... Rather than a few students driving the intellects of this country to silence, let's take a stand and turn their proganda around on them.

So say it once and say it loud, "I'm liberal, and I'm proud!" ;-)

[liberalitch]

308. Next all liberals will be forced to wear red star....

then the arabs then the immigrants then the jews then the socialists then the hindus and buddhists then the unmarried, then the childless.... anyone who has an abortion will be tatooed

[AgadorSparticus]

310. it should be okay then for professors to make a list of these brown

shirt neo nazi fascist students and display it during class while they are teaching. if i was a student there, i'd walk around with a red star in solidarity of the teachers.

maybe my tin foil hat is on a little tight lately, but it seems to me these "college republicans" are being helped in a big way. i remember reading something last year about the RW machine hiring people to become college students and stir up shit. i can't help but wonder who is really behind this nonsense....

[CatholicEdHead]

311. ***Followup News Story***

Here is the latest followup from the newspaper along with a pic of the student who posted the stars.

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050303/NEWS/503030331/1033/NEWS01

"The Senate took no action, but it could come up again at the next meeting, which is scheduled for March 16.

McPherson and Carter, president and secretary, respectively, of the SRJC Republicans, said their point was not a personal attack on instructors but a protest against what they claim is a left-leaning bias in the classroom.

"I don't pay to be taught what to think," said McPherson, a political science major.

..............
Both instructors and the Republican club's leaders agreed on one point: the need to organize a public forum on indoctrination and education and, as Aparicio put it, "the significance of the distinction.""

[nashville_brook]

314. OMG! that's no polysci student! that's WEIRD AL YANKOVIC!

she said "I don't pay to be taught what to think." -- that's the point here. a college education is not a commodity. you don't pay the money, do the time and just get awarded an education. you might get a degree that way.

unlike the Busniess School and other departments of the universite, the human sciences like polsci, phil and soc demand that students learn. jesus christ how can you be a MAJOR in polysci and not WELCOME knowledge in other economic/political theories. that's what you are THERE to do. she needs to find another major, like interior design.

[LynneSin]

317. Santa Rose Junior College???

Pul-Lease!!!

Although I respect the fact that there are junior colleges out there to help give folks from all walks of life a chance for college education, in my neck of the woods Junior College is where you go when you couldn't get accepted anywhere else.

[Webster Green]

321. Man, thats a really lame post....

I guess I take offense at that statement since I spent a couple of years at SRJC recently. Their web-development and web design program is one of the best in the country. I understand the culinary program, and all the rest of their programs are excellent too.

Are we all supposed to be wealthy ivy-leaguers or be labeled as losers?

Thanks a lot!

[Bridget Burke]

323. Remember, Bush was a wealthy ivy-leaguer.

Be glad you got a real education.

[Binka]

328. Yoozah Web Green I Agree SRJC Was A Haven For Me

The social science department was so great with Marty Bennett and Marco Giordano in the English department gave me what I needed to go on to Cal. The fucking school rocks. It is like a mini and better Ivy league experience. I am more than offended that this school is treated like a play ground.

SRJC is no shitty JC and it is exactly why the RW fucks are attacking it. They know what happens there and they want to stop it.

Grads of SRJC go to Cal or Sonoma State or Chico. Gotta cut that LIBERAL shit off at the knees.

I was pissed when I read that drivel glad you responded first. I might not have been so cool.

[ArtVandaley]

363. Not cool dude

That's a somewhat elitist point of view. A lot of kids go to Junior/Community college because they can't afford a to go to an expensive private school, or because the public school system they went to was so poor that it didn't prepare them for college, so they improve their game in junior/communty college and transfer later. I know a lot of very bright people who did that and then went on to be successful. It's not just a bunch of rejects.

[Sequoia]

368. (Update) Get off your high horse, this is one cool junior college

on a very beautiful campus with lots of bright students. This college was in the news last year over another incident.

And while I'm at it, Santa Monica College is great too!!

Here's an update on the story:

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050303/NEWS/503030331/1033/NEWS01

[martymar64]

383. Santa Monica College Rocks!

I got my AA there and eventually went to University of Washington. SMC was such a great school. I saw Cesar Chavez speak there! I went because I could afford USC or UCLA.

[vs the introvore]

384. announcing the LynneSin tuition grant for arrogance. apply asap.

WTF LynneSin? Please go back to your neck of woods where REAL college grads consider junior college to be a proper noun like some national franchise. Also please pay my tuition. Or better yet, pay my room and board and miscellaneous expenses and books and gimme a friggin bus pass so I don't have to bring home the proverbial bacon and I can just sit around the union and muse and mock and pity lesser students. peace.

edited to be less antagonizingly defensive by closing with the salutation, "peace."

[DianeG5385]

431. Not everyone has your advantages.

You are talkng about one of the best JCs in the country. Why does your simple mind think it was targeted? Maybe to continue the dumb down theory of world domination??? If you're cool with that, see ya!

[UCLA Dem]

327. are we in the 1950's??? this is insane.

[Lisa]

330. Bring it on! I'll wear one in class -- and do my "Western sheriff" accent

One of my colleagues had a "Rage Against the Machine" poster prominently displayed in his office; and the guy whose office I'm sharing now has a large picture of Che Guevara on his wall. My guess is that they would both be hurt and miffed if they didn't get red stars too!

[merh]

338. Is that vandalism?

Is that a hate crime?

:think:

[LittleClarkie]

370. Vandalism. No. Hate crime. I don't think so. Hate speech. That's possible

No sir, I just don't like it.

[merh]

480. Why do you say it isn't vandalism?

just curious.

I think the students should be subjected to a disciplinary hearing for violating campus rules.

[durutti]

361. Leftists in Nazi Germany were made to wear red stars. n/t

[lies and propaganda]

378. wow.

sickening and disgusting. I cannot believe that this can happen in 2005, and in the North Bay, wtf is wrong with these kids. They very much should be punished, with harassment at the very least.

[martymar64]

381. Sue the pinche pendejos!

THese twits may not have broken any criminal statutes, but . . .

What they did however is actionable under civil law (slander, possibly libel and definitely intentional infliction of emotional distress).

They did this with the intention of intimidating and silencing the professors in question. They could have filed a complaint with the college administration if they really had a case, but they chose to perform an act that was with the intention of evoking ridicule and hatred upon private citizens, possibly to the extent of costing the professors financial harm through losing their jobs.

If they think that their actions are defensible let them defend them in a court of law.

I would recommend suing the students and the College Republicans jointly. That way, under the rules of discovery, we could access the records of the college republicans to determine the level of collaboration.

This method can work, it was used effectively in California against Neo-Nazi Tom Metzger and in Idaho against Richard Butler and the Aryan Nations church. The goal is to break their bank so they won't be able to operate.

PErsonally, I'd like to take a crowbar to these fuckers but I rather give Tort law a try first.

edited for spelling

[AnneD]

481. I seem to remember.....

something about the Jr Neo Nazis (aka young repubs) were being encouraged to act up by the national group (remember the hey hey ho ho Social Security has got to go)and they may receive funding. I think maybe some blog research could come up with some interesting info that could be useful. They should be hauled into court-they can be banned from campus for breaking rules-wouldn't that be sweet.

[marmar]

386. I have never run across a College Republicans group...

that wasn't composed of a bunch of complete and total moronic assholes.

[mondo joe]

388. Looks like harassment and threats to me.

To notify people that you will somehow publically label them in such a way that could cost them their livlihood is harassment.

[Nameless]

389. Oh my God...

It looks like I'm not the only one reminded of this


:cry:

[DianeG5385]

429. I live in Rohnert Park and My daughter went to SRJC.

It's one of the best JCs in the country. It's being targeted for conformance...yuck!!! Sorry little conservatives if you are NOT OPEN to actual THOUGHT...that's what going to college is all about...thinking, not polluting the discourse by some particular political party line. If actual thought frightens you, why are you in college? If your beliefs are that fragile why are you trying to shove them down the throats of those who are more open to the marketplace of ideas? You who are limited because you are a tool of a political party, are incapable of independent thought and that makes you dangerous to democracy. You are what our founding fathers feared most.

[purduejake]

463. I am going to declare victory and leave.

When people CONSISTENTLY accuse me of saying things I didn't or imply it, it's not an honest debate. And why would somebody be dishonest? Because they cannot reasonably attack my real position so they change it around a little bit so it can appear as if their attack is reasonable. The attack would be reasonable if I actually said it.

CYA

[izzie]

472. I can believe college kids will do this.

Not letting you find out about Mark has always been a thing with some. I never could understand it my self. How do you know about some thing unless you study it? It has been going on since I was in High School in the 50's.I guess the GOP nuts for got that even the Russians hated what Mark was about. Course most right wing nuts for get SS was Bismark and not Marks, who did not do mush in life but write.

[CTPatriot]

473. CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM IN NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005378

EXCERPT:
...
From 1938, Jews in the camps were identified by a yellow star sewn onto their prison uniforms, a perversion of the Jewish Star of David symbol. After 1939 and with some variation from camp to camp, the categories of prisoners were easily identified by a marking system combining a colored inverted triangle with lettering. The badges sewn onto prisoner uniforms enabled SS guards to identify the alleged grounds for incarceration.

Criminals were marked with green inverted triangles, political prisoners with red, "asocials" (including Roma, nonconformists, vagrants, and other groups) with black or--in the case of Roma in some camps--brown triangles. Homosexuals were identified with pink triangles and Jehovah's Witnesses with purple ones. Non-German prisoners were identified by the first letter of the German name for their home country, which was sewn onto their badge. The two triangles forming the Jewish star badge would both be yellow unless the Jewish prisoner was included in one of the other prisoner categories. A Jewish political prisoner, for example, would be identified with a yellow triangle beneath a red triangle.
...

[Frederik]

475. Why not yellow stars too

when they're at it? and don't forget the pink triangles.

[sniffa]

476. i found a pic of them at work

[Protagoras]

482. Admission standards there are obviously too lax

if they let in trogs like this.

[chomskysright]

486. use the college's Due Process to overview the student's behav

[Webster Green]

490. Here's the flyer the repukes were posting....