Reguarding the Kerry uproar. Please read.

[Discord]

I will try to be as diplomatic as possible when I say this.

This would not be an issue if there wasn't this constant stream of Kerry on '08 posts and threads being shoved in our faces. Its the relatively small number of people who seem to have not come to grips with the unfotunate fact that Kerry indeed lost the race. Even if he proves it was stolen. They still will not suddenly annoint him president. I didn't vote for him in the '04 primaries, I did vote for him in the general election. I would not vote for him in the '08 primaries but if it so happens that he wins the nomination in '08 I would still vote for him again. I do support the party.

Now I support Kerry 100% as a Democratic Senator. I think that he is doing a good job as MA Senator. I take nothing away from his accomplishments to date, or to what he still fights for to this day.

BUT

Like many others. It seems that every thread that even mentions his name is immediately followed by a Kerry in '08 post, and then, of course, to be followed by someone saving something negative about Kerry or the poster. Result... Yet another threadjack. It has seemingly almost prevented any valid political discussion about Kerry and his current role as Senator, and the tasks he faces in Congress. As a result. The site as a whole suffers.

Would it be at all possible for everyone to just call a truce. Lets forget about '08 for now and think ahead to '06. This has been posted many times, but will echo it here. If we don't gain control of the House or Senate in '06. It wont matter who we run in '08. The president would be rendered impotent by a Republican Congress. All the active members here who participate in a positive way on this site are here BECAUSE they support thier party. Its to be expected that what that party is, where it should go from here, and what we need to improve on will differ with every single person you speak with. We are Democrats. We love and want our country back. On this I'm sure we can all agree.

So please, I ask you all. Can we please just say enough is enough. We've gone over it over and over again. Let the Kerry madness stop!

[LittleClarkie]

1. Indeed.

That's all I want. Just to be able to say his name in conjunction with legislation he's working on or something he may be doing or an event he may have appeared at without hearing "He's through" "I'll never vote for him again" "He abandoned us!" "Too little too late".

Even criticism related to the task at hand like "I think ANWR is off base" would be welcome.

I'm not talking about 2008. But I've got the back of any Dem who's taking positive action. Of course, that includes Kerry. And I'm an unabashed Kerry Democrat.

But that also includes people I don't really like, such as Hillary. I support Hillary's voter bill. That doesn't mean I support Hillary 08. Nor do I want a Hillary voter bill thread highjacked by "Fuck Hillary in 2008" sentiments.

Ya know?

[JI7]

2. sorry, but every Kerry post is NOT followed by an Kerry 08 post

most of them are just ones commending him for whatever the issue is at the moment.

most who attack him or start going on about 08 do it on their own and not in response to someone who brings up 08.

[LittleClarkie]

11. Read her post again

she's talking about those who post the "Fuck Kerry in 08" comments no matter what the subject.

She's on our side (I think she's a she... maybe I'd better check.)

[Discord]

23. Its a he.

And its towards both sides.

[uppityperson]

3. Yup

no threadjacking, (edited to add) no arguing, not even about if you do what is being asked to not do, or arguing that you're not arguing.

[sandnsea]

4. Kerry in '08?

I must be a dolt. I don't see them, or not that many of them. Certainly no more than I see Clinton '08, Boxer '08, Dean '08, etc., etc.

The Kerry people I know think talking about '08 is a waste of time. We've got to unify in order to deal with what's in front of us. There may be no '08 to think about if we don't get our act together.

The only thing I've seen Kerry people ask for is to stop the bashing of any Dem and just come together.

[LittleClarkie]

13. It ain't us the poster's talking about

It's the posts that appear in the middle of a thread about Kerry getting an award, or working on a bill, that say that they'll never vote for him again, or yawn, or that they'll never support him in 08.

I agree of course. That's the kind of highjacking the poster means. The kind where we can't mention his name without a moan fest breaking out.

[Dawgs]

30. Exactly sandnsea...

It's not about Kerry 08'. It's about supporting, and not bashing, a hard-working Democratic.

[autorank]

5. Welcome to DU "Discord." Your call for "Harmony" is refreshing.

Hang on to that last sentence, it's recyclable:

"Let the (insert topic here) maddness stop!"


It will be the sentence that keeps on giving.

:hi:

[Discord]

8. Thank you and thanks

for the tip. I'll keep that in mind when I redo my sig. :D

[autorank]

14. Hey, I like "If not why...why not?" Trippy!

[Discord]

21. thanks. when I first came here to DU.

One of my first posts was a *snip* of the Declaration of Independance, paragraph 2. The sig was tied into that post.

:D

[Mass]

6. I agree it is too early to talk about 08

But is your request only concerning Kerry or all potential nominee.

Just curiosity.

[Discord]

9. Ultimately, I would prefer that we all just

put aside all the '08 talk for right now. The day after the last elections in '06. Let the debating begin!

[Mass]

12. That would be great.

[cestpaspossible]

7. 06 06 06 06 06 06 06 06

[Darkhawk32]

78. YES, FOCUS ON '06. THAT'S OUR #1 PRIORITY! n/t

[Southsideirish]

10. As one who has never seen the Kerry allure, I've always thought the ever

present pro Kerry posters were his family members or staff. I just don't see his appeal. I did, however, work for his election and put many miles on the car, traveling to "battleground" states to do so on several occasions.

[Withywindle]

15. Nope.

Pro-Kerry poster here (sort of infrequent, but utterly sincere when I do). Never met the man. Not related, never worked for him (for pay), etc. I just know that he has a 30+-year record of being right on most (not all) issues and working really hard for them.

I did hear him speak in person (at a rally) and found him very charismatic -- it's a thoughtful, literate, rational, kind sort of charisma that ultimately is the only kind I really trust. (And for the record I'm a transplanted Appalachian Southerner living in Chicago - that alleged Northeastern turnoff had no effect on me).

And no, I'm not ready to give a rat's ass about '08 yet. I care about who's fighting for us NOW. Kerry's on that list and ranking pretty high up on it.

[sandnsea]

17. How unifying

Thanks for helping the OP out.

[blm]

28. Not family or staff, just one who cares about government corruption and

appreciates the fact that Kerry investigated and exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

Those of us who are concerned with the contents of the National Security Archives and the historic record find Kerry very appealing.

Just research IranContra and BCCI and maybe it would help you understand those who feel as I do.

I don't begrudge honest criticism of Kerry and also believe it's far too soon to push him for 2008, but, I do shudder at the lack of integrity from those who complain that Kerry is somehow undeserving of a voice, let alone any amount of respect. It just proves to me they have no sense of recent history and his enormous role in it, or they don't care.

[jpgray]

16. To ignore '08 with regards to Kerry makes no sense

It has to factor into his political maneuvering, so I don't think DU should just ignore it. I would rather we discuss those motivations without immature flames or people shitting on Kerry, but that's usually beyond DU's ability anyway.

[Discord]

18. Yes it does. He has not even officially announced

that he will run again. He hasn't dicounted it, but HE realizes that its too early and nothing but a distraction to the issues at hand... if you like Kerry so much... then please... why don't you listen to him?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1666817

edit: typo

[Bridget Burke]

19. I regard all threads on the 2008 elections as premature.

We've got 2006 to consider--if we can live that long. If the votes can be counted...

But--why are you singling Kerry out?

[Discord]

20. please refer to posts 6 and 9 for response.

And I singled out Kerry because of timing, (yesterday there we're 3 seperate threads specificly about Kerry.) But the same thought applies to all the talk of anyone in '08.

[WI_DEM]

22. Oh come on, if we have the constant Clark '08

threads we should let Kerry supporters do their thing too. And believe me I haven't been one of them, but the man did get 59 million votes the second biggest number in history and ten million more than Bill Clinton ever got. So maybe he has earned another shot?

[Discord]

24. again. if you read all the posts in the thread...

people want ALL talk about '08 to just be put on the backburner until after the '06 elections. That applies to all the people for or against any person reguarding any running, nomination, chance of victory/defeat, etc having to do with the '08 elections.

[Guaranteed]

25. I like Kerry, especially lately.

I was angry at him for his IWR vote. And I think it's why he lost.

I just don't think he's going to win. He didn't have enough conviction, at least perceivable conviction, and that's going to stay with him until '08.

I LOVE what he's doing in the Senate right now. He's being a real leader. But I don't think it's going to change anything for him.

Us Dean supporters have let go of the possibility of Dean running in '08. Kerry should too, and embrace his role as a leader in the Senate. He and Dean should be working closely together to get a solid, opposing message out there.

[bunkerbuster1]

29. I wish he'd been made the minority leader.

Not that I'm slamming Reid and the job he's done so far, so much as I wish we'd act like an opposition party and get behind our leaders, instead of acting like a guy who came within a few votes in Ohio of becoming the next President was something to be ashamed of.

If the Dems had made him the minority leader, it would've said to the US and the world, "This was our guy, and he's still our guy, and you're not gonna get rid of him."

[karynnj]

26. I agree - arguing about who the 2008 candidate is now is stupid

First, as Kerry himself has said it's way too early and there's a lot of very important work to be done to develop better grass roots and to elect people in 2006. He is even involved in 2 Hillary Clinton fund raisers for her Senate campaign. As she almost certainly can raise money on her own (or with the help of some guy named Bill), this is most likely intended by Clinton and Kerry to demonstrate they want a unified party now.

Second, we do not know what the issues will be in 2008 or who all the potential candidates may be. The actions of potential candidates between now and then may make them more attractive or demolish their chances. I like Kerry, but if some other candidate really seemed to fit better in 2008, although I would still admire Kerry's 35+ year record, I would vote for the other person.

I love how strong Kerry has been, using the visibility he has to raise significant questions about Bush policies and appointments. I think he is very sincere in saying he wants to fight for people he met last summer. He seems to be speaking with the same conscience he did in the 70s - which may actually signal that he is willing to lose "viability" to say and stand for what he believes in. I do think that because he has the ability to make very strong condemnations of things Bush has done while appearing polite, reasonable, and intelligent, his comments reach a segment of the population that we need to convert, so what he is doing now will help any future candidate.

[NVMojo]

27. How about focusing on the real enemy instead of each other?

When we fight, we give the RePricks exactly what they want. A bunch of defeatists ninnies who point fingers at each other. Besides, not one person here walked in Kerry's shoes this past year.

[LeftyLizzie]

33. You've got that right!

Why can't we all just love each other? :loveya: Seriously, though, I'd much rather spend time discussing what's wrong with Bush and his admin. than dissing my fellow Dems. Sure, there's always room for criticism, but sometimes it just gets ridiculous.

[Dawgs]

31. Great thread!!!

Explains exactly how us Kerry supporters feel...

[Discord]

32. well the entire reason for this thread

was to just try and get this whole thing to stop. Asking both the Kerry supporters, and those that disapprove of him to just call a cease fire for a bit. What discorages me, is that since posting this thread, the "Wheres the Kerry support" thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1664765


has grown to almost 150 posts. While this thread has recieved around 30. Several I posted myself. Should I just assume that people would indeed prefer to bicker back and fourth endlessly, with not a hint of anything new being posted, just the same things over and over again? Now, as far as I can tell... there is a small number of people who are on a promotion mission for Kerry, and while recently since the spotlight seems to have been shined on this topic, they have stopped posting text that contains it, but still tote around sigs that have the big ol blue banner saying what???

You guessed it... Kerry in '08! You know who you are, and in posting repeated threads and messages with that sig attached spouting pro- Kerry sentiment and not addressing any relavant political material concerning CURRENT issues being dealt with. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that it's not just a blatant attemp to either promote your own agenda, or to post as flaimbait.

I understand that the fair majority of the people who are in support of Kerry ARE NOT LIKE THIS! Most display knowledge of him, understanding of current issues, understand the immediate importance of the '06 elections, and are civil in thier posts. As well, most of the people posting who dislike Kerry, behave the same. Everyone needs to realize that it seems to be a small number of people hellbent on either promoting or bashing Kerry in an unconstructive manner, and everyone else just jumping in to add thier opinions.

[Withywindle]

34. To me a sig file is something different...

It's just something people want to declare or promote enough to have it as part of their sig, I see it as very much background sound to what their post happens to be about. I don't see a problem with promoting your theoretical '08 favorite (whoever that may be) in a sig file. I would be more annoyed by a sig that was a negative statement about anyone since that really could be flamebait.

I wish there were more '06-oriented sig files, though. :)

[MoonRiver]

35. I don't prefer to bicker.

But I'm having a problem with Kerry supporters just brushing aside what happened last November. Kerry promised to fight for us, with his army of lawyers, should another election theft be perpetrated by the Rethugs. Well, as everybody knew it would, this did occur and Kerry folded in absolutely record time. Now, obviously some here completely excuse his behavior. I accept that, but wish they would simply acknowledge the anger and bitterness that many of us feel about Kerry's, imo, shameful and hypocritical (IN)action and refusal to fight for the this country's survival, as well as his electorate. I would like them to try and understand and not simply keep shoving the possibility of him (doing this to us again) in '08. That's all.

[Mass]

37. Actually I am tired to see Kerry appear in all threads

Look at the Feingold08 thread. The initial poster found necessary to criticize him, so no surprise, the thread became about Kerry and not about Feingold. This is just ridiculous. If anti Kerry people did not find necessary to talk about him in all their posts, it would be easier for all.

[MoonRiver]

38. Maybe it's just me, but I thought this thread was about Kerry!

:shrug:

[Mass]

40. Did not say otherwise

I said that if anti Kerry people stopped talking about him nearly everywhere, you would see less people defending him, that's all.

Sometimes, it seems that everything relates to Kerry here.

[MoonRiver]

41. I wasn't concerned about him at all. I've put his betrayal, imo, behind

me. But it is impossible to ignore all the constant cheerleading from Kerry supporters. I just feel it's a little soon, and somewhat resembles propaganda, to have so much positive hype about him so soon after he conceded, in record time, and LOST.

[LittleClarkie]

42. Can we help it he's active?

Others post whenever Dean makes a speech or sends out an email. Same with Hillary. We're just doing the same with Kerry. He's active. We don't just post "Gee, he's so cool, we just love him" and that all. There's almost always an even attached when we create a thread for the peoples.

If we think, on the other hand, that there is misinformation in a thread about Kerry, then we may be popping in to correct it, or at least offer an alternative opinion. Same as the supporters of other folk. Call it propaganda if you like. I prefer "a difference of opinion." And Kerry supporters have as much right to that as any other supporters.

Speaking of misinformation, take your comment about conceding in record time, for instance. The only person in recent memory to concede slower was Gore. By the standard of other candidates before Gore, Kerry was actually quite pokey. Are we to never concede another election again?

I'm glad he's still alive to fight another day. And he is still fighting. Hence all the emails. What can we say. He's a busy boy.

But in the words of Kerry himself, and he HAS said this, REPEATEDLY, it's too early to worry about 2008. We have battles to fight now and in 2006. So when someone posts about part of that battle, it would be nice if someone else didn't pipe up with "I won't support him in 2008." That's nice, but besides the point. The action is the point. Support any positive action, no matter who coughs it up, no matter who you plan to support in 2008. I support Hillary's actions, for instance, but I certainly don't want her for 2008. See what I mean.

Come on. Let's work together. That's all I'M asking for, anyway.

[MoonRiver]

43. Well, like I've had to do so many times over the last 5 years,

I need to just let this whole issue go. I have major issues with Kerry's IWR vote and how fast he conceded, but those are just my feelings as a Democrat and American citizen. Others can choose to differ. I'll probably be waxing on and on about my candidate come 2008. Peace.

[Discord]

45. sorry to notify you...

but it goes both ways. there have been posts made by both sides. don't just start blaming all the bashers because just as many threadjackings start with a pro Kerry pitch as a anti-Kerry post.

[Mass]

67. You're right

threadjacking is wrong whatever. The only problem is that this seems very disproportionate in one direction.

[Discord]

68. thats how you see it.

I see it coming from both directions.

[LittleClarkie]

39. Seems to be the way here. Positive threads sink like a stone

Negative threads eat their Wheaties.

I suppose it's more of an internets thing than a DU thing. Message boards, not just ours, thrive on snark.

[THUNDER HANDS]

36. its tough to focus on '06

because we're not winning back the House and the Senate would be considered a HUGE victory if we got within 1 or 2 seats of a majority.

No. 2008 is the year this party has to look toward. Simple math says the Senate might turn in our favor by then.

Unfortunately, it'll take until AT LEAST 2012 for the House to go our way.

[welshTerrier2]

44. the problem i see is ...

there's entirely too much focus on candidates and not nearly enough focus on issues ... there will never be peace and harmony when it comes to candidates ... those proclaiming their puppy love for any given candidate, Kerry, Dean, Hillary or anyone else, are not doing anything productive ...

until we implement a process, both within the Democratic Party and on DU, that finds a fair way to establish "the Party line", we will all be going nowhere in a hurry ...

for those who think calling for unity without addressing the deep differences that exist on the issues will result in unity, it won't ... you can whine all you want and say that those who are making policy demands are the source of the problems but you'll get nowhere with your pleas ... frankly, because i am exclusively focussed on policy and not on candidates, i find the attitude of those who want to win at any cost most distasteful ... they accuse me; i accuse them ... and here we are ...

just as i am told "why can't you just ..." i say the same to the candidate pushers ... "why can't you just ..."

it's the issues, stupid !!! i want to win too but i want to be fighting for the issues i believe in ... if you expect blind loyalty to a Party that violates my principles, and then you go further and disrespect my principles by saying to me "you're not perfect" and i have a "holier than thou" attitude, what unity do you really expect to result ???

the way i see it, the Party is desperately in need of reform ... Dean has talked a lot about it but so far, i haven't seen much ... if he needs more time, no problem ... until the entire Party is represented, and those on "the left" do not generally feel they are, we ain't going nowhere ... i hope things change ... i'm trying to change things by working from both inside and outside the Party ... i'm not at all optimistic ... i see the Party's elite as tightening, not loosening, their grip on power ...

[LittleClarkie]

46. It's frustrating, because I keep repeating too "It's the issues, stupid"

but then I just see another "I'm not supporting him in 2008."

Fine. I don't care. Support Mickey Mouse. Support Pat Paulson. Support Joe Walsh. Or my personal favorite: Ringo Starr!

But the issues you want to address are being addressed by warm bodies in the Senate, some of whom we are not terribly fond of.

I support Hillary's election reform bill. I do not support Hillary.

I support Dean as the DNC Chairman BECAUSE he is the DNC Chairman, not because he is Dean. I also suspect the reform you're looking for may come from People Powered Howard. Or it may come from the peoples themselves, since there are alot of them who haven't stopped yet since the election. We shall see.

I don't expect people to collapse at Kerry's feet. But if he's trying to do something positive, as with ANWAR, I would like people to react to the issue even if they don't support the guy.

Kerry himself has said it's too early to worry about the next election. He's trying to get the Republican Governor out of Massachusetts. He's fighting for ANWAR. Reid is fighting for SS. Clinton is fighting for election reform. Let us support their issues, if not them.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

I'm sorry, but I take offense at your "puppy love" comment. My interest in Clark could have been described as puppy love, as it was shallow. However, I spent too much time checking out Kerry and discovering who this man was I was fixing to support last election for someone to come along and call my continued support "puppy love." That does a disservice to me, and the Dean supporters and the Clark supporters as well. Some may fit your description. But I would wager most do not.

[welshTerrier2]

58. mostly agree ...

i have a couple of responses to this ... first, i agree that any Democrat should be commended when they do the right thing ... i totally agree with your argument that when Kerry fights for ANWAR, we should welcome his support ... i've argued this very point myself regarding Kerry's push for getting health coverage for every child ...

the ONLY reason i supported Dean for DNC Chair was because he seemed most likely to bring about reform ... I understood this to be a promise he was making to Democrats ... that many others are working for Party reform is great but I still hope to see real leadership, i.e. continued leadership on this issue from Governor Dean ... he's new in the job; i'm prepared to cut him tons of slack ... for now ...

"I keep repeating too "It's the issues, stupid" but then I just see another "I'm not supporting him in 2008."

it sounds like you see a disconnect between those two phrases ... i don't ... there a world of difference between "Do you think Hillary could beat McCain if she had Edwards on the ticket as VP" and "I will not vote for any Democrat who votes another penny for war" ... you may or may not agree with the latter but the statement is based on the weight one gives to the issue ... it is "issue focussed" ... the candidate is seen "through the issue" ... the former statement is candidate focussed ... it's based solely on "winning" an election ... it offers no thoughts about the direction of the country beyond "my candidate will make it better" ... it establishes no values and no platform ... and it's the best recipe for losing elections i can think of ...

finally, the comment about "puppy love" ... no offense was intended regarding your support for Clark ... as you correctly pointed out, if the shoe fits, wear it ... the comment is intended for those who are only willing to accept positive comments about their favorite candidate ... there are some posters on DU who seem to only post "I love my candidate" threads without showing any tolerance for those who deeply disagree with them ... as you stated, "Some may fit your description. But I would wager most do not." ... i completely agree ... my intent was never to suggest that this applied to many DU'ers ...

it makes no sense to call for Party unity until the processes through which unity could possibly be achieved have been put in place ... and calling for unity in the same post that you insult someone because they criticized your candidate (not saying you do this) seems at least a bit absurd ...

[LittleClarkie]

59. I understand what you're saying

And I guess the disconnect for me in this paragraph

"it sounds like you see a disconnect between those two phrases ... i don't ... there a world of difference between "Do you think Hillary could beat McCain if she had Edwards on the ticket as VP" and "I will not vote for any Democrat who votes another penny for war" ... you may or may not agree with the latter but the statement is based on the weight one gives to the issue ... it is "issue focussed" ... the candidate is seen "through the issue" ... the former statement is candidate focussed ... it's based solely on "winning" an election ... it offers no thoughts about the direction of the country beyond "my candidate will make it better" ... it establishes no values and no platform ... and it's the best recipe for losing elections i can think of ..."

Is when I or someone posts "Sign petition for ANWR" and get a response "Fuck him, I won't support him in 2008." It's, as you say, not everyone who does this, or even that many people really. But that's the disconnect. I didn't say support him in 2008, I only asked that a petition be signed or a call be made. I'm talking about specific actions regarding issues, not general positions on these issues.

In other words, it's not "Vote for Kerry, he supports ANWR" it's simply, "Hey, there's a petition to be signed. Would ya mind?" The disheartening thing in the second kind of thread is when you get the "He shoulda thought about action on Jan 6th" or the aforementioned "Fuck him."

Do you see what I mean? I agree with you about candidates and their issues. But it's the action threads that bug me the most when they get negativized.

Well, I suppose that's not completely true. If someone posts a "Kerry gave a speech today" post, that's not calling for action. But it would be refreshing if the posters who get negative in that regard were negative about the issue at hand. I suppose it will always be this way. But sometimes I wouldn't mind seeing a criticism about the speech, or the issue he's supporting in the speech, or his past history in regard to the issue in the speech. But no, we often get the "Kerry who?" the "Jan 6th post" and the "IWR" posts instead. It would be nice to get a IWR post in an IWR thread, and an ANWR post in an ANWR thread at the very least.

Oh crap, I think my caffine is wearing out. I'm rambling, aren't I. Eh, see what you can make of it. Sermon ended. Amen.

[Pallas180]

49. The party is in need of a new party - one with backbone that adheres

to the principals democrats USED to stand for.

[Carolab]

47. Even Kerry says it's too soon to talk about '08 and to concentrate on '06.

I say he's right.

[Pallas180]

48. Fool me once, shame on you...Fool me twice, shame on me

Ex democratic party hard worker.

Mrs. Kerry I would vote for.

for John Kerry, quitter, betrayer of trust, liar and squanderer
of free resources.. I asked to be taken off the mailing list, as many many have...

so his campaigners with about 300 posts - newbies - come here to solicit.

Support John Conyers' efforts. We know he's sincere and not a quitter. He's proved it.

[Generator]

50. I'm sorry but almost every word of your post is offensive

I have over 300 posts. I'm not a newbie. I don't come here to solicit. But enough about me :)-who gives a crap about that.

The offensive part was about Kerry-I believe he's the exact opposite of a quitter, a liar, and squanderer and a betryayer of trust. So because I feel so strongly about him and that he is the one (besides Dean) and only that is truly and absolutely the oppostion to this thing called Bush.

I do, however, support and admire Conyers greatly.

But really- I have to say the one place that made me almost MAD enough to put my Kerry sticker back on my little car was DU!

Really, can you have it both ways? Why care if Bush won if Kerry is all those horrible things? I know how bitter you and many are about the election concession. I,myself refused to watch. I despised the speech he gave. I've watched everything he's done since that time and he's not let me down. I've come to realize there was no way he could have won against the machine he was up against. I forgave that. I saw someone post in the election results forum that he had proposed election reform in 2001.

I don't know how much we expect of one man. I know he tried. And yes he FAILED. I can forgive him. I'm finding it much harder to forgive the rest of the people in this country that voted for Bush or not at all or continue to place all the crimes of the Bush adminstration from the war in Vietnam! to Iraq on down on John Kerry.

It took me awhile to warm up to Kerry. He wasn't my first. I liked Edwards. I liked Dean. I was anybody but *.

But I will always have a place in my heart for the man that really won the election, that took on the thing that is Bush, that has to suffer the fools of this country, and continues to fight day after day no matter what anyone says.

[Pallas180]

51. Generator, didn't mean you - and don;t be sorry - you're entitled

to your opinion, just as I am.

I worked out of the campaign hq that hit the Wash Post as the busiest
and most effective in the nation.

Never again.

Like I said, I'd vote for Theresa. She's got the balls in the family.

On edit - and I'm sorry if that offends you - but at least she said
recently and publicly " The election was stolen by machines that were rigged" and she is absolutely right.

I polled voters on entrance and exit. There's no way the greedy lil
puppet won.

There is going to be no democratic win anywhere ever again as long as
the no paper trail machines are used that can be hacked and changed within 9 seconds. 9 seconds!

We'd be better off with paper ballots. At least they'd be large and heavy enough to make it difficult to hide.

[politicasista]

56. Your personal attacks aren't going to change what's happened

You might want to take that somewhere else.

[marcologico]

52. "Stop supporting Kerry"?? Are you kidding me?!?

You're saying stop supporting a Dem who is actually acting like a Dem because you happen to think you won't be voting for him in your personal '08 primary?!?

Give me a break!!!

This is DEMOCRATIC underground. If Kerry is too Democratic for your taste maybe this is not your forum.

[Pallas180]

53. No Marco. Too Bush lite for my taste. But I wouldn't vote for

Hillary anymore either.

Pandering to the rethuglicans is not acting like a democrat.

Moving to the center when the center has moved to the far right, has no relation to what used to be the democratic party.

LIke Dean says, I used to be from the Democratic wing of the democratic party. ... when Liberal was not a dirty word.

Or who was it who said, I didn't leave the party - it left me.


And don't tell me , cookie, whether I should be posting on DU or not.

I was here before you even learned to type.

:)

[marcologico]

54. Bush lite? Tell me you're joking.

The record says you're wrong. Kerry, Kennedy and Boxer are about the only Dem senators who aren't Bush appeasers.

Check his voting record and get back to me.

[politicasista]

57. You need to get over the primaries

Kerry is doing something right, yet you criticize and berate him for it. You should lift dems up, not tear them down cause you didn't get your way. :mad:

[NYCGirl]

76. Al Gore said:

"I didn't leave the party — it left me."

[Discord]

64. ummm... marco...

we're you the one posting the daily Dean bashing threads?

[marcologico]

65. Apples and oranges.

One fights while the other feasts. My money stays on the fighter.

[Discord]

66. your opinon. your entitled,

but you might not wat to advertize your hypocricy. How can you sit there, and try to convince others who don't like Kerry to support him while you continiue the bash the DNC chairperson without supporting him. I'm sorry but you lose all credibility in your argument if you can't take your own advice.

[marcologico]

69. If he was doing any kind of job I'd support him too. He isn't. Sorry

to be blunt. :(

[Discord]

70. repeat:

If you can't take your advice. you lose credibility in your argument. You have your opinion, and you are entitled to that. But if you can blatantly claim, that someone should support someone they don't like, without being able to do the same, you are a hypocrite. to be blunt. :(

[MoonRiver]

71. I think Dean has been in office all of 2 weeks,

yet he's supposed to have miraculously transformed the entire American polical system by now! :eyes:

[marcologico]

72. Over a month, and a pretty brutal one at that, and still not a peep

out of Dean to the national media. Meanwhile Rice, Gonzales, class action and bankruptcy sail through, Gannon walks away and ANWR goes down in flames.

Sorry, Terry was an infinitely better spokesman.

[MoonRiver]

79. Oh yes, Terry was so good he lead us into three disastrous elections!

Terry virtually ignored the black box voting issue, thereby helping sell us down the river. Dean has been addressing this problem from the get-to. I'll put my mondy on Dean vs. McAulliffe getting Dems into office any day.

[Discord]

81. wow... then shouldn't you be directing your

frustration with the ones who can actually VOTE on these issues? Or would that be expecting too much from you, I agree, its easier to just come onto a forum and spout of negative streams clearly bashing Dean, while at the same time bashing people who disapprove of Kerry.

[marcologico]

83. I am supporting the ones who vote. The question is, why aren't you?

:eyes:

[Discord]

85. have you bothered to actually read and

understand my posts?

sounds like you didn't to me...

[marcologico]

87. If you "support Kerry 100%" then please

quit crying in your beer if you'll pardon the expression.

:)

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marcologico]

94. This is the kind of thing Kerry got in trouble for not blowing chow over.

But you'll never catch him OR me stooping to personal insults so I think I'll follow suit. :)

[Discord]

84. and as far as being a spokesman...

I think you might be having some unrealistic expectations about Dean and his role as DNC Chair. He has been doing exactly what his mission statement said he would. He's working on the grassroots operation, he's attending fundraisers in deeply red states, and being successful at it. He's getting out to the public by being with the public, in the public.

<SNIP>
Your Interview with Governor Dean
We received hundreds of questions for DNC Chairman Governor Howard Dean. Governor Dean answers your top concerns in our Democrats.org online conversation.

http://www.democrats.org/chat/20050311dean.html

<SNIP>

Like taking time to.... *GASP* Talk with regualr people???!!!???


You obviously have simply not wanted to see anything that Dean HAS done because you are undoubtedly biased in your viewpoint. All the things you mentioned in your post...

"Over a month, and a pretty brutal one at that, and still not a peep out of Dean to the national media. Meanwhile Rice, Gonzales, class action and bankruptcy sail through, Gannon walks away and ANWR goes down in flames.

*BOGGLE*****

I didn't realize that Dean got to vote on these...

Oh, didn't get media press coverage? Wow, this is news to you? Haven't been reading the MSM threads much lately have you.

[NYCGirl]

77. You are correct, Discord. NT

[Discord]

93. thank you NYCGirl

:)

[Geek_Girl]

55. I think some posters are just playing politics

They see Kerry really getting into the Grass roots game and getting people active in what is going in the House, which I think is great and he's doing a good job too.

But I know some posters have candidates that they have in mind in '08 and maybe they think Kerry is starting to gain momentum among the Grassroots.

[LittleClarkie]

60. I kind of find it funny how transparent the playing can be

Like the "Let's talk about 08" game as if it's going to be a general thread about who we should run, when the real objective is to suggest ones own candidate. Oye.

I really don't care about 08 right now. I really don't. I got a Dem Governor to save. Kerry has a Republican Governor to get rid of. We're both focused elsewhere. I'll start paying attention to all that crap after 06.

[Discord]

62. Thanks you.

I was starting to think the whole point of this thread had been threadjacked by the same people I was hoping would stop.

Its very disheartening to see.

I can see both sides, I'm not a Kerry-Hater, but not a Kerry actavist either. Both sides have valid points. Some continue to post disruptive and unproductive comments meant to slander those with differing views.

Let me put it like this.

1. As long as Kerry is a Senator, I will continue to support him, and others should too. (this seems to be a main point of the pro-Kerry posters, and on this I agree with them.) Will I agree with every single thing he does or every vote he makes? Of course not, but theres many other Senators and Reps that vote against the party more often than Kerry,

2. Am i upset that Kerry conceded too quickly? You damn right I am. I could get into depth of my reasons, but for now I'll summarize. The longer it takes to recount, the better able the criminals will be able to cover thier tracks. This needed to be done immediately, this needed to be done loudly, and yes, it very well have could have hurt his political future, but then to me, I see that as abandoning us for his own personal agenda. I cannot support this action.

3. I think that both sides just need to take a step back. The pro-Kerry posters will not change the opinions of those who dislike him. Thos who dislike Kerry will not change the opinions of those who support him. Think to yourself, what am I really trying to accomplish by posting this, that hasn't been said before, that might have a purpose other than to contradict the opinions of others.

4. We are ALL entitled to our opinions. To discredit anyones opinion, reguardless of whether you agree with it or not, is outright WRONG!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Discord]

63. please. these are the personal attack laden

posts that are uncalled for. calling her a little girl, and accusing your community of being from the DLC because they don't think like you do is wrong. there is no defending it. can you please refrain from this?

[American in Asia]

73. We should change the title of this thread

to "FREEPER ENTERTAINMENT FOUND HERE"

This is pathetic. We berate Lieberman and others for tearing other Dems down. And then do it ourselves. And we're 2 months into the 2nd term. I'm so dang discouraged by how these two months have gone and so royally enraged at the Republicans. Do you guys have really that much excess energy and hatred boiling around that you can afford to spend it speculating on candidates for 3 years down the road? Or each other? I just don't have the energy. And it's terribly counter-productive and demoralizing. Of course, I'm a newbie, so maybe my opinion isn't worth much.

[marcologico]

74. Nobody's forcing you to post and you can "ignore" threads. Personally

however I think it's better to hash this sort of thing out sooner than later.

[marcologico]

75. p.s. welcome!

:)

[Geek_Girl]

90. I'm just making an observation is all

Most of the anti Kerry '08 hijacks I believe are from posters who are trying to gum up the works for Kerry's grassroots momentum. I'm neither condoning nor complaining just giving my opinion.

[paineinthearse]

80. here here!

I agree with the original post.

If you are a Kerry supporter/detracter, discuss those issues in the Kerry forum and leave running/not running // support/oppose out of the current events threads.

Even though my senior senator on 2/28 said "the Kerry 08 campaign starts here", MAY I PLEASE HAVE MY JUNIOR SENATOR BACK for at least 2 years?

Thank you.

[earth mom]

82. We need to remember that NONE of these candidates is perfect

and that's what some forget. I'm looking at ALL of them with a magnifying glass these days and I think we should all do the same.

I have a issue with people trying to control or stifle what is posted about whomever because since I joined DU I've felt that the forums are being used and manipulated by pro Clark, or pro Kerry or pro Hillary etc., supporters or campaigns as a way to sway votes. Trying to control what people post-negative or positive-about any candidate-is similar to trying to sway votes. More than anything, we must be brutally honest about the candidates-it's the only way to keep it "REAL". Because no doubt some of them-if not all-are reading DU and using DU as a barometer of sorts. IMHO, it's a good way to keep them honest and accountable.

My .02

[PATRICK]

86. Controlling or stifling

is not what is happening, just the usual Internet chat problems of warring causes. We seem to be getting bigger than than individual poster personalities, I think. It is as easy to spot a fan or detractor of a particular candidate as it is a Freeper so it is not very insidious.

The main issue is to remind the fans/enemies what a goddawful waste of bandwidth this pre-primary stuff about the past redux is. Kerry says it is too soon. Judy Woodruff, more intent on instigating flame wars like these, keeps harping on the ridiculous. I t=IS too early. There are NO apparent messiahs who have shown they are up to fighting the crime machine or anything else in the fraudulent system. The grass roots are still poking up through the baked topsoil.

We need to raise Dems up not extol or punish the failures of the past. We have made immense progress with Dean and the locals taking over yet we still argue about the "stars" undercut and naively complicitous with a ludicrous status quo of defeat.

The stars are in your selves not in your big name politicians during the long Democratic retreat since Reagan.

[rodeodance]

88. I have said positive things about Kerry and health care and the next

thing I know there it is---Fuck Kerry--It is rude and beyond irratating!!

[PATRICK]

91. It may be rude but

it seems apparent that Kerry is still building for his own viability and not come to terms with HOW he got defrauded. So we are all stewing unconstructively in a hopeless past.

I think most of us can move beyond the persistent echos of defeat and recrimination.

[MoonRiver]

92. And not to take anything away from what he has and is doing

as a Senator, I would also like him to come to grips with his blitzkrieg concession, and the deep bitterness many Democrats feel about this. He must address what happened, including why it happened, and acknowledge our feelings. That is IF Kerry wants another shot at the WH.

[hollowdweller]

95. Kerry's doing now what he should have been doing the last 10 years

Letting people know who he is, where he stands on stuff. If for say the last 5 years he would have been as vocal I think he would have had a greater margin in the last election

[ClassWarrior]

96. What "Kerry uproar?" You mean a handful of disruptors trying to slam...

...an honorable man? Just ignore them and they'll crawl away.

NGU.

[marcologico]

97. Have you noticed that Kerry supporters don't endlessly bash other members?

That's because we don't need to. :)

[Discord]

98. get a clue. read your own posts.

you've been trying to insult or bash anyone who said they don't like Kerry. You even attacked me, though NOT ONCE have I attacked Kerry. I asked people like you AND those that bash to just stop. but you don't take a hint very well. If you think your innocent, then you need to step back and try to be objective. Read your own posts. I have read yours. You have been crude, condesending, hypocritical and unswayably biased.

[marcologico]

99. I rest my case. Thanks for demonstrating my point! :)

[Discord]

100. yes. I admit it.

because none of the other Kerry supporter have tried to push Kerry harder while bashing other Dems at the same time. I don't pick on all of them, and atm most of the others have realized that it is simply causing alot of people alot of anxiety. More anxiety that any of us us need right now. But you just keep on persisting to push Kerry, as I noted to you in your other post on other thread, and continue to bash Dean. I'm not picking on everyone. I'm picking on you because you have shown that you don't care for anyone here but yourself and your agenda.