While I applaud the relentless efforts of several DUers

[brindis_desala]

to "prove" that Kerry actually won the last election the greatest threat to democracy resides in the fact that in the two most influential and powerful nations in the world nearly half of their eligible populations is too disaffected and or apathetic to vote.

It is a paradoxical and ironic fact that as corporate influence has increased the people have found themselves less trusting in the power of the ballot box. So while the corporate class can certainly be blamed for creating a political landscape antithetical to the survival of the planet and the well-being of its inhabitants until we can convince the average citizen that democracy can actually work the most unified minorities,(in our case the religious-neofascist right) will continue to set the agenda with dire consequences for the entire world.

It is the sleeping conundrum behind the election fraud discussion: the reason why more people are not moved to action despite the overwhelming evidence is because they have given up on the entire proposition. Somehow we have to reform the system and re-inspire without appearing to be raving at windmills.

Here's the breakdown for the declining turnouts in the U.S. and U.K.
From the WP:

"The report noted that although turnout reached new heights, more than 78 million Americans who were eligible to vote stayed home on Election Day. The group estimated that Bush won just 30.8 percent of the total eligible voters"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10492-2005Jan14.html


http://www.tutor2u.net/politics/content/topics/elections/voter_turnout.htm

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html

[radwriter0555]

1. Yeah, that GOP owned Diebold factor is merely a COINCIDENCE... yep

that's it.

Just a coincidence...

Like 911, the Florida vote corruption, the lies to invade iraq, afghanistan, the heroin trade restarted...

Just a coincidence that the Mossad paid Atta 100K a month before 911 and that FEMA was 'meeting' in NYC the day before 911. and that the hole in the pentagon shows no wing marks from the crashed 'plane'.

Americans are apathetic because they're mired in mass media. MTV is far more important than actually voting... but who wants to take part in the wretched and filthy game of politics? This is why you find few women in the trenches; the game as it is today is too nasty. These people running our gubment are nasty, vile pigs, with only a few exceptions.

Voting gains no one any rewards. People want a payoff, and with the current stakes, there is no payoff. If you vote in the USA, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

[southernboy]

2. kick.

[havocmom]

3. Fact is a whole lotta new voters went to the polls last November.

Despite efforts by the GOP operatives to prevent that from happening.
So, you premise is a tad out of date. More people got involved and it would probably be just the beginning of a trend, were it not for the FACT that they know who they voted for and have a pretty good hunch their votes were disregarded.

So, should we just not worry about the fact that major GOP contributors own and program the machines that count the votes?!? IN THEIR DREAMS!
We have to work to prove the election was fraudulent due to a multitude of problems which were all managed by the same group.

:eyes: Part of the solution of part of the problem? That is the choice we make.

[CrispyQ]

4. I don't think we have a shot at reclaiming our democracy

until we revoke corporate personhood. Everyone I've ever told about corporate personhood didn't even know it exists. They were appalled to find out that corporations have the same rights people have. Of course, I doubt any of them took the time to investigate the issue further, either. Sigh.....when will the sheeple wake up & will there be anything good left of America when they finally do?

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

snip...

Our Bill of Rights was the result of tremendous efforts to institutionalize and protect the rights of human beings. It strengthened the premise of our Constitution: that the people are the root of all power and authority for government. This vision has made our Constitution and government a model emulated in many nations.

But corporate lawyers (acting as both attorneys and judges) subverted our Bill of Rights in the late 1800's by establishing the doctrine of "corporate personhood" -- the claim that corporations were intended to fully enjoy the legal status and protections created for human beings.

We believe that corporations are not persons and possess only the privileges we willfully grant them. Granting corporations the status of legal "persons" effectively rewrites the Constitution to serve corporate interests as though they were human interests. Ultimately, the doctrine of granting constitutional rights to corporations gives a thing illegitimate privilege and power that undermines our freedom and authority as citizens. While corporations are setting the agenda on issues in our Congress and courts, We the People are not; for we can never speak as loudly with our own voices as corporations can with the unlimited amplification of money.

Read our draft constitutional amendment to revoke corporate constitutional "rights" and offer your thoughts.

[brindis_desala]

13. Absolutely. I could not agree more.

Santa Clara vs Southern Pacific was one of the worst decisions the courts have ever rendered. Until we get corporate money OUT of the political game apathy and helplessness will follow. The problem is the lobbyists on both sides have the government by the proverbial balls.

[welshTerrier2]

16. actually ...

i think they have them by the proverbial "bills" ... almost all legislation is now written by, and sponsored by, corporate interests ...

[brindis_desala]

18. I sit corrected. Touche

[welshTerrier2]

15. "we can never speak as loudly"

i have argued for some time now that TV commercials paid for by revenue-generating corporations should require equal time, free time, to citizens who oppose the message being advocated in the commercial ...

for example, if Ford tells you to buy their great new car, citizens in favor of mass transit (in lieu of automobiles) should have an opportunity (i.e. "free speech") to respond ... points about tens of thousands of annual traffic deaths, air pollution and the heavy dependence on imported oil could all be raised ...

without providing free, equal time, the nation only hears the very loud, omnipresent voices of corporate America ... when commercial interests can buy more "free" speech than American citizens, what kind of democracy remains?

[msongs]

5. the Dem party is NOT interested in getting rid of vote fraud.....

except for a few very public diehards like Mr. Conyers,the Dem party as a national organization is doing nothing to restore integrity to the voting and vote counting process.

sad to say it is as beholden to the corporations as the repubs.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[radwriter0555]

8. The dem party doesn't KNOW about the voting fraud. What makes you think

our lawmakers are smarter than the average american? THEY ARE the average american. They do what they're told and are in it for the payoff that suits them the best.

[Al-CIAda]

9. The Undoing of America: Gore Vidal

The Undoing of America: Gore Vidal on war for oil, politics-free elections, and the late, great U.S. Constitution

"In other words, I put the case that Bush was never elected--not in 2000, and not in 2004. This is a new game in the world. Through the magic of electronic voting, particularly through Mr. Diebold and friends, you can take a non-president and make him president. But how to keep the people, including the opposition who should know better, so silent, this introduces us to a vast landscape of corruption which I dare not enter. "

http://citypages.com/databank/26/1268/article13085.asp

[ElectricIron Sweeney]

6. When there is nothing to vote for

It is hard to get most people out of the house. They know. Not voting is a no vote. Give them someone to vote for, and they will find a way. Let them vote on everything, and they will choose what to vote on. Debs said: I would rather vote for something and not get it, than not vote for something and get it. If we are a democracy we are a piss poor excuse for one. Like Bush said: Democracies do not attack their neighbors. Our neighbors are the world, and if we attack because of an unrepresentative body made daily more unrepresentative all dragged out in the dress of liberty then who is fooled besides us? We do not need the courage to vote. We need the courage to act on our votes. We need to realize our democracy is root bound. It needs to be dug up, cut up, and re planted. We need to understand that there are many forms of democracy. A mobocracy is a democracy, and so might a parliamentary monarchy be. To me, a man with a gun is the best democracy; because his vote counts, and he is certain to defend his rights. We can neither defend our rights nor demand them, and without the courage to act as individuals on our vote our democracy is the empty exercise of futility.

[Bridget Burke]

7. So--getting a gun will make the slugs leave home & vote?

One needn't have been in love with John Kerry to realize he was far superior to George Bush.

[ElectricIron Sweeney]

21. We are superior to bush

Kerry was a lousy candidate, and what is more important, he took louse advice. None of them have the guts to get up and call a spade a spade. In addition, all Bush had to do was hold his base, and since most people are incapable of admitting a mistake or changing their behavior he had a huge advantage from the start.

[NVMojo]

24. I agree. He isn't a murderous, lying coward, who sens others to die

in place of himself.

[havocmom]

10. Hate to repeat myself, but there were a lot of newly registered voters

in Nov. Even more of them would have voted had it not been for GOP operatives tossing out the registration forms of people who registered as Democrats. Voter apathy is actually lessening. Why are you advocating the opposite?

[ElectricIron Sweeney]

23. An insignificant number

is nothing without the assumption that a mere majority is enough to give the government great power. I do not buy it. The purpose of government should not be to divide and conquer. That is the job of an army or dictator. The common good is the purpose of government, and empowering the minority is the means of doing good. This is not to say that those who already have wealth, security and property should also control government. Rather, the least in society should have say. Consensus is a goal that is difficult to achieve, but one that should never be lost from sight; and if we see that our very government plays upon the fears and insecurities and animosity of the population to keep itself in power with a slight majority and a frustrated minority, and that that ability is a function of the structure of our government then we do not have a democracy, but a mockracy of what government should be. I know there are many Democrats out there who are elitists. I know they would prefer not to put their affairs in the hands of so many bubbas and bubbbaettes from Jesus land. We refuse democracy on the basis ignorance, and withhold education to justify withholding democracy. If we were to elect the best person in the world to congress they must first swear to uphold the constitution even while recognizing that we deal daily with the failures of that constitution to meet our most basic needs.

[MoonRiver]

20. WHAT? A "man with a gun is the best democracy"?????????

What are you going to do, shoot the computer that "tabulates" your vote????????????????????????

[ElectricIron Sweeney]

22. The best democracy

Is one where people are willing to defend their vote with their lives, and if you do not even have that ability, what do you do but discuss your frustration. If your vote counted do you think you would be sharing your rights with the machine? Do you believe you would be struggling so in a rich country for social programs, the environment, retirement and health care and education? The government says the people are sovereign, which means they(the government) are sovereign; but then the democratic party says it is the voice of working people. If they have my voice I want it back. I do not trust their judgment as to when to raise it. I think it is the greatest irony that the party that is most aware of the misuse and abuse of government is foremost in the disarming of the population. We want peace. The government wants peace. We believe in peace before justice as fixture in ancient cannon law going back to the earliest days of the church and remaining to the present. When you surrender your right to self preservation to the vicissitudes of fate you deserve what you get. Now do I believe you should hand a rifle to some one who can't spell gun? No, but I do believe if we were educated and not simply indoctrinated it would be because our votes counted and someone feared to be caught manipulating them. We are no democracy

[omega minimo]

11. This is an important component of any hope for a legitimate "next time"

Since the Nov. 2 farce, how many MORE voters will disenfranchise themselves?

I spent election night talking with a neighbor who is young and well-informed, very savvy about all the subjects DU'ers discuss, and somehow convinced that since corporations run everything, it doesn't matter which party is in power. (He's a recovering Right Winger who was a kid in the Reagan Nightmare, so.....) I couldn't get him into the "Anybody but Bush camp."

What multiplier would we use for the people he represents? x100; x 1,000; x 10,000?...x1,000,000?)

Re-encouraging voters will be very important, along with having legitimate voting mechanisms. Paper trails won't matter if folks (especially new generations of savvy cynics) don't vote.

Please, DU, don't misunderestimate the psi-ops impacts on the voting public of the second hijacked election.


:kick:

[brindis_desala]

14. Bingo. We have a winner. That's the game being run here.

[welshTerrier2]

12. is the "big tent" really a "glass house"?

is democracy dying?? ... would all agree that democracy requires a yin and a yang? would all agree that merely offering the right to vote does not a democracy make? the other piece of the equation requires an educated, informed electorate who actually DOES vote ...

you have highlighted one of the most devastating symptoms about the sickness coursing through the veins of our American democracy ... our democracy is dying ... it is not dying BECAUSE people are not voting ... that's only the observable symptom of the disease ... it is NOT the cause of the disease ...

could the cause be any clearer than it is? it's easy to label these non-voters as apathetic ... it's easy to say "well, they deserve what they get" ... that's all well and good ... but the truth is, it still remains the responsibility of those in power, and those of us who see that we must not turn our backs on fighting for democracy, to effect the changes necessary to give ALL citizens a sense of empowerment and a genuine opportunity to have a voice in the political process ...

and under the heading of the cliched "people in glass houses", perhaps we in the Democratic Party need to put our own house in order ... tens of millions of those who no longer vote, ever, are, or were, registered Democrats ... if we are to accept responsibility, or at least do all we can to open a dialog with these non-voters, we must find a way to make the Democratic Party far more, well, democratic ...

the Democratic Party is in critical need of reform not just to reach out to non-voters but to address the constant drumbeat of those on the left who feel increasingly alienated from decisions and votes cast by elected Democrats ... this does NOT mean that the Party does or doesn't need to agree with those who feel alienated ... that is to be determined by a dialog after reforms are implemented ... but to not find a way to share power and provide a real voice to ALL Democrats puts the Party at risk of continuing to lose voters ... Democrats may not realize this yet but "lesser of two evils voting" (aka ABB) died after the last election ... if the Party's rift with its "democratic wing" is not healed soon, we will all suffer ...

as a country, we need to understand that our democracy is dying and we need to do all we can to refresh the idealism on which the country was founded ... as a Party, we need to understand that reaching out to disaffected Democrats and to those who no longer vote or participate will not only help America return to its democratic ideals, it will help the Party politically as well ...

[brindis_desala]

17. what I should have added is that

personalities are not the problem per se. Take Tom Delay. It is not his skills as a politician that provide him with his power it is the clout he gets from his religious and corporate deep pockets neither of which should EVER have been allowed to corrupt our political system. We buy the products its time we tell the corporations that we won't condone their anti-democratic tactics directly.

[omega minimo]

19. This thread deserves to live-- don't pull the feeding tube!

:kick:

The OP states:

"It is the sleeping conundrum behind the election fraud discussion: the reason why more people are not moved to action despite the overwhelming evidence is because they have given up on the entire proposition. Somehow we have to reform the system and re-inspire without appearing to be raving at windmills."

Sleeping conundrum indeed! The thread unraveled early on. Before it did though, the divergent responses touched on SO MANY issues that could each be a separate thread, and are interconnected, and are woven together on this thread relevant to how we work our way from fraudulent elections to whatever comes next.... WHY?

That's the interesting part. So many issues show up here that are a laundry list of DU concerns.

REFORM THE SYSTEM AND RE-INSPIRE.

What do you think?