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Wes Clark seems to be winning the DU Poll for 2008....and seems

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:55 PM
Original message
Wes Clark seems to be winning the DU Poll for 2008....and seems
to be the most popular candidate here on DU for 2008 amongst the regular posters who are hoping to creat a groundswell campaign for him to "jump start 2008."

A "General" in the White House.

Maybe once and for all we can "lay to rest" the Vietnam War...with this?

Acceptable to everyone...because NO One can impune Wes Clark the way they did John Kerry? :shrug:
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. wanna bet?
"NO One can impune Wes Clark the way they did John Kerry? "

Right-e-o.

That is a serious misunderestimation of the GOP and its media pitbulls.

Sue
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
82. And an even MORE serious
underestimation of all Clark's prodigious faults, failings, chinks, etc.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would never vote for Clark
Sorry.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Does that mean you will go republican if he wins the primary?
Or that you won't vote for him in the primary.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I have never voted for a Republican, ever, and am not about to start
I would look at other progressive choices though.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Why? n/t
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BigTentDemocrat Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
105. Sad
I find it very sad that some people don't look at the big picture. If Clark is the nominee, then we need every vote - and then we need at least 10,000,000 more to try to compensate for the election fraud that will take place.

If Hillary is our nominee, we need all of you!

If Edwards is our nominee, we need all of you!

And so on, and so on.

Some people don't support policies like NAFTA - they think it is bad for America. Yet after NAFTA was passed, unemployment dropped as low as 3.9% under Clinton. And anyone who knows anything about economics knows that the Theory of Comparitive Advantage is the way to raise people up - something all good Democrats believe in.....and not just Americans, but people all over the world.

Raising people up from poverty is something that is in all our hearts...that's why we're Democrats! So next time anyone comes on here and slams Clinton, perhaps they should look in a mirror and ask themselves just what kind of Democrat are they.

We need the left, we need the moderates, we need everyone. And we need to shut those abdominable voting machine companies down.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. While the General has a good deal of support here
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 05:59 PM by WI_DEM
he gets about double the support of any other candidate in the polls, but still is usually under 50%. I think he would be a fine president, but it is still early. Also, it should be recalled that Howard Dean led many DU polls in 2003 and early 2004. DU isn't always indicative of who the party will nominate.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. It is way early, and it is too early to expect activists to agree
Hell, we couldn't all agree to really support Kerry before it was crystal clear that Kerry was going to get the nomination.

As someone who supports Clark, all I hope for here at DU is that folks consider him, and people obviously do. And that includes the people who consider Clark lacking in whatever they would need before they could support him. Unlike the mainstream media hacks, we don't play the "let's ignore them and maybe they will go away" game at DU. It speaks to our credit. So does the fact that people were thinking about Gore before it seems he threw cold water on it, and that some people are thinking about Feingold. We don't just sit back and meekly accept the a prefabricated candidate's list prefabricated by pundits with an agenda.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
61. that support certainly didnt translate in the primary polls did it?
I wouldnt make anything out of it, if there was ever a worthless internet poll its right here. Whats more, all this 2008 hubbub is worth less than an outdated lottery ticket and NOBODY has the slightest who will be in the game in 3 years. Its easy to guess which wannabes will be grabbing for it, but pointless to count chickens. Clark aint going anywhere, Dean aint doin nothin, Hillary is a waste of time and money, we already have GW and 3 more years of his efforts dont bode well for our traditional notions of democracy as we call it.
If the American people cant have Gore, Im working towards Kucinich for President in 2008.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
88. Uhhhh, you know -- about Dean and the 2004 primary
I'm not at all comfortable with your phrasing on this (or perhaps framing).

Our nominee was manipulated by the media to a certain extent but especially by certain people in our own party. I would like to have seen how Dean would have done ON HIS OWN -- without being undermined and dirty-tricked out of contention by people in his own party.

But one thing I know for sure: there's no way you can tell ANYthing from the 2004 primary race other than that The (rank and file) People of the Democratic Party didn't get a fair chance to pick their nominee, and that TPTB got what they wanted (blech), for better or for worse.

Just wanted to make that clear.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
131. No kiddin'.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Of cours they can
They'll just make stuff up.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Even as a fan of the General's, I certainly would never put it past
the GOP to at least try to impune his character.

They'll pull out the British Gen. Mike Jackson's quote about not wanting to start WWIII for Clark at the Pristina airport; however, they'll leave out the part about Jackson's particpation in Bloody Sunday and his failure to testify about it during an investigation last year.

They'll trot out Gen. Shelton and William Cohen again to impune Clark's character by raising vague innuendo's about Clark's not being fit for command, failing, of course, to add that Clark was RIGHT about Kosovo and how it should be handled while Shelton and Cohen sat on their asses and did nothing.

The difference between Clark and Kerry would be a matter of rising to the defense sooner than Kerry did with the Swift Liars.
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xkenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. BTW There is More
to the Pristina Airport incident. Contrary to commentary that had Clark recklessly charging in, Clark had approval from the White House to take the airport ahead of the pitiful Russian contingent. When Jackson whined about it, probably because he wasn't in a position to do so, the Brit high-ups got Washington to back off, so they did a reversal on Clark. Clark was proved to be right about safely taking the airport because the Russians ran out of supplies and actually had to be bailed out by NATO.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, that's a rhetorical question if I ever saw one
Of course they will. It's what they do.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Please
I don't vote in polls.

Anyone can be "impuned", we all know that.

Wait for the Feingold movement, then you can complain about him being popular. Or remember the Dean movement that once ruled DU.

Why people have a problem with this, I don't know. They are all good Democrats, for chrissakes.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. Are you accusing incap of lying?
Just curious as to what you mean by that post.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
66. Why should I lie?
Or care what you think?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. there's a poll?
where? :shrug:


dp
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safi0 Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Clark is a clear cut #1 here
With Dean becoming chairman of the DNC ruling out any possibility of his Presidential run Clark has firmly assumed #1 here. While Clark isn't #1 on my list, probably somehwere around 3 or 4, I do like him quite a bit and WI-Dem I think saying he gets less than 50% is quite misleading, most of those polls have 7 or 8 others. He's getting twice maybe sometimes 3 times more than the next closest person. Right now I'd say Feingold and Kerry are second on this board and Edwards is a distant fourth and there are a couple people who like Bayh and Hillary. But none of these people are close to Clark.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. sorry I didn't mean to be "misleading"
That is the thing I've noticed is even if you say something that isn't really offensive towards a candidate there are some gung-ho supporter who will be upset because you aren't lavishing praise on them. I said, accurately, I think, that Gen. Clark leads in all of the polls and usually by 2-1, but he isn't over 50% in many of them--I think that has been the case. The poll today is close--he currently has 49%, but it also includes only candidates who has groups on DU--for instance Feingold isn't included. You are correct that if it is Clark and maybe one or two others he may be over 50% but it will probably be a crowded field. But also it is early and I also stand by what I said about DU not necessarily reflecting the views of Democats nationally, I know since Dean was my candidate in '04 and for the longest time he led polls here too.
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safi0 Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I absolutely agree with that
I wasn't here during the 2004 Primary season but I'm guessing Kucinich had a fair amount of support while in the primaris he was pulling in 1 or 2 percent. Clark doesn't have anywhere near the support outside of DU that he does here. While most people don't want her, Hillary isn't gonna be some pushover, she's gonna be a force to be reckoned with, yet in the polls she's mentioned here she'll get at most 3-4 votes.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
92. Hillary is only going to have the force given to her by
the RIGHTWING and maybe some really stupid or even subversive power brokers (allegedly) on the left.

She's the worst possible candidate I can imagine. I think Cynthia McKinney would be a better candidate. Or Maxine Waters. Michael Moore. Absolutely anyone.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. Sorry...here's the link to DU Primary that was posted as early straw vote:
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:33 PM by KoKo01
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. thanks Koko01
i looked in the latest polls and found it, cast my vote for DK.

i remember the admin had a poll before and thought they'd started another. Too early for that.

dp
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. I sure hope he's the candidate.
But it's guaranteed the Pukes and whore press will go after him. There's just so little to attack with the General!
:loveya: General Clark
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. It is one thing..
... for the GOP to "impugn his character" - it is another for him to lie in the road and take it.

I've seen enough to be pretty sure he will fight back, and fight back convincingly.

One thing I find curious, folks saying things like "he doesn't understand Washington politics" and such. Let me tell ya, the military, at the high levels, is as political an animal as exists.

When I hear him defend his positions, I hear a man who has gone into meetings full of pit bull officers and who sounds like he can hold his own.

He certainly chewed up and spit out light work like Russert; like nobody I've seen before or since.

There's another reason I like Clark. In modern history, Presidents seem to come from anywhere but Washington. Americans know that Washington is a sewer and that anyone who has been there for any length of time is tainted by it. That is why they elect folks like Reagan, Carter, Bush, Clinton, and why people who are sitting Senators have one strike against them from the get go. Whether that is fair or rational is moot, it is.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. Now that 08 is decided, can we stop having so many damn polls?
It is obvious which former candidate has the most support here, and I say we don't need any more polls.

What do you think? Are you with me on that? Maybe we can concentrate on 05 and 06.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Great post MF. I completely agree with you, other than the fact
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 06:42 PM by Crunchy Frog
that nothing whatsoever has been decided about 2008.

Those polls are ridiculous and divisive and usually don't accomplish anything other than to trigger yet another flamewar. I would never post one myself and I wish that other people would hold off, at least until after the 2006 elections.

We'll have plenty of time for candidate flamewars then. It would be nice to avoid them for awhile.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. I agree. No more polls until after 06', if then. n/t
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Clark Bayh 2008 Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
120. LOL..... maybe we can run Clark for governor of Florida...
Kill 3 birds with one stone...
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
17. No

There's a consistent 40% in Democratic polling that backs the flavor of the month and almost invariably a Southerner or Midwesterner who is vocal and energetic, and/but has no new ideas.

It's a marked coincidence that 40% of the Democratic electorate lives in Southern and 'safely' Red States.

The Vietnam war is laid to rest now even if/when Kerry runs again. The country has be reliving/rearguing unsettled bits of the past and 2004 was a stretch of the very late Sixties and/or early Seventies. We're (sadly) reliving 1973-1974 now- the Roe v Wade issues via the Schiavo business, the Oil Crisis, Republican corruption, stagflation, military demoralization, and overseas competition hitting U.S. industries (i.e. cars) very hard.
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Clark Bayh 2008 Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
122. I gather you would agree though that to get to 270 EVs...
the NATIONAL ticket at a time of war in 3/08 will have to have someone with broader likability & real military or FP gravitas.... that's not Edwards, Kucinich, or Kerry obviously.

Outside of Sam Nunn or Bill Clinton, I can't think of any other Dem who qualifies. I'm sure we're all wide open to suggestions on DU.
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. Tacky puff piece for Clark and slam against Kerry!
:eyes: :wtf:

Really uncalled for as Kerry's Military Family Bill of Rights passed the Senate today. Way to go!

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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Your Irony detector is broken
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Could be, guess I missed it!
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. THANK YOU.
:thumbsup::applause:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
96. No it's not, as kerrygoddess doesn't put out "Kerry's so cool" threads
Almost all her threads are related to news of some sort. I've never seen "Kerry's the one, so you guys might as well give up" type threads out of her, or "It MUST be Kerry", or "We NEED Kerry."

Just, "Kerry passed a bill" or "Kerry put out a press release" or "Kerry gave a speech." That type of thread for anybody would be preferable robotic cheerleading.

Now if this were about Clark DOING something, that would be different. It's a puff piece.

A shame too, since Clark did do something today. With Kerry. The horror. The horror.
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CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #96
111. you do understand
that this thread was started by soemone who is not a Clark supporter, yes?
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. The OP isn't slamming Kerry
Slamming Clark. :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
80. I wrote it and it isn't slamming or puffing anyone. I asked would Wes
get slammed like Kerry. Could they really go after a GENERAL? Would they succeed. And...Clark is winning the Straw Poll. I didn't "Editorialize" I simply asked a question. :shrug:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
70. And Clark and Kerry worked together on it over at the House
I wish their supporters were more like the men themselves. These men are both honorable and good and both want the same for our military families. That's why they both worked on bills at the same time asking for similar things.

I wish their supporters could get together as well.

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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. i would be honored to support wes clark
but 2008 is a long way off. i think he would make a great president
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. It's far too early to be thinking seriously about 2008.
Yes, lots of DUers like him, although lots of DUers don't like him as well. DU is not a representative sample, and a number of other potential candidates have their passionate adherents and detractors as well.

At any rate, these silly and divisive polls don't get posted by Clarkies generally. They do usually degenerate into pro-Clark/anti-Clark flamewars, which is silly and annoying.

Most of the threads posted about Clark recently involve his current activities, of which there has been alot recently. They are mostly not about him as a potential candidate, although it's no doubt a subtext, as it is with other threads dealing with other political figures.

At any rate, if the Greatest page is anything to go by, it would seem that Kerry is the most popular potential candidate on DU. At any given moment, the majority of threads on that page seem to be about him.

My advice is to just stop worrying about these things for right now. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Focus on the political figures and threads that interest you, and possibly avoid those stupid and meaningless poll threads unless you've got someone that you want to express support for.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
29. Most popular among a TINY SUBSET of democrats.
WooT

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Time will tell,
not you.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Time will indeed tell
I'm simply commenting on the state of affairs as put fourth by the OP
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I think one could have said the same about Howard Dean
Back in 2001-2002.
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. No. Howard had support elsewhere as well.
This is simply the same hundred posters on DU repeatedly voting for wes in poll after poll.

I know that Dean had lots of support because I worked for him in the real world.

We had a bigger DFA list in our county than the number of registered democrats we had.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
85. And, I worked for the General in the real world and saw
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:42 PM by Clark2008
mountains of support.

I'm assuming, of course, it depends on where one lives. In the South, Clark was immensely popular, but Dean wasn't. Clark, basically, lost out at the last minute to Kerry because the media had already crowned him king and some folks - for whatever psychological reason - think they have to vote "for the winner."

I'm not bashing Kerry, mind you. I'm bashing the media, who failed to cover Clark from the time he returned from testifying against Milsovich in mid-December and on throughout the primaries.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #85
108. Woah, do Dean and Clark get along?
Clark has a decent smile on his face, but Dean has kind of a sickly smile on his. I've seen him do that before. It's sort of a paste-on.

Contrast that with the picture in my sig. Genuine smiles all around.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #108
114. Okay, this thread really has jumped the shark now...
You are seriously arguing who Howard Dean likes best by the smile on his face in a photograph?

Several people who were there in Little Rock have said that Wes and Howard spent some time talking one-on-one, and looked very friendly and at ease with each other, and posed for Photos together whenever asked.

But, at the end of the day, you are basing your support on who Howard Dean seems to smile best with?

This does take the cake.

Good gawd a'mighty!

TC
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #85
126. Do you have any stats to back you up
I see this constant theme from you that no one but Clark was/or will be popular in the south. I'd like to see some numbers, because you aren't the only southern DUer I don't think, regardless of the fact that you post as if you were the ultimate authority on what everyone in the south thinks, feels or supports.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #126
137. I'll provide it, but you won't read it.
So it would be a waste.

In any case, I never said "no one" but Clark was more or less popular in the South - I said Clark was more popular than Dean in response to someone else who said he saw support for Dean outside of DU and not Clark. I simply said it was a different story here.
And, yes, by virtue of the fact that Clark came in ahead of Dean in Tennessee and Virginia before he dropped out, I'd rather suspect that he had more support. Clark actually came in second over Edwards in the Dem-leaning larger cities - and this was WITHOUT a fawning media.


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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
30. I would never vote for a General unless I knew every detail of his
military life...especially every little meeting he sat in on with corporations to discuss weapon purchases and designs...then I would want to know how those weapons were rated for necessity, value, cost, profit, performance, if purchased. In other words, was it worth it to our country an dour soldiers or was it just a profit gimmick for the corporation. I would want to know whether he received money from any dealings with corporations. I would want to know where is money has come from. I would want to know if he has belonged to any secret societies.

I would think it would be refreshing to have a President who has not been a Senator or Congressman. Something sick often comes out of those offices in spite of the some eloquent rhetoric and some good works.

I am as negative about military brass as I am about the corporations.

One negative he has is his backing by the Clintons in the last election. I no longer trust centrists. They may be OK in times of peace within our country, but we are at war within our country and we don't need centrists unless they are going to play the role of negotiator with ideas that could work. In the meantime, I repeat, we are at war with people from within who are trying to destroy our country from within even though it involves people from without - such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, India and Britain.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I can understand your hesitation, and suggest you study his record
and positions here: http://www.securingamerica.com/

I love this man and believe he would make the best president our country has ever seen. Although he fought in VietNam and has been career military, he was outspoken against the Iraq war. Clark doesn't hesitate to call it like it is when he believes in a principle, whether it involves war, veterans' benefits, social security, national health care, etc.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Why not a centrist?
If security credentials are your worry, why would you want a peacenik on the far left? We wouldn't lose by a few points in this case; we would get massacred.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
60. Centrist for me as of today is linked with all the people in this country
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 07:45 PM by higher class
who sided with the regime to shoot Iraq for corporate purposes and those who are lukewarm about doing anything about our vote. That is nearly all of our Senators and Congressman.

I can only support someone who will do all in their power to keep from killing anyone and who will stand up to profiteers. I don't know what you call that person - I don't call them peaceniks. I call them religious, spiritual, optimists, idealists who desire and attempt to inspire others to rise above killing so that every person born on this earth has an opportunity to realize their highest potential and can live and survive without the threat of death by the hand of a brother - but live in humanity - without the threat of death and theft from war.

We don't really believe in children if we keep on holding, memoralizing, and celebrating war.

I can only tolerate the military for defense on the road to getting everyone on board to a life of peace. If humans are not going to try we should just stop procreating.

We were not born to kill. I can't believe in the overthought that it is preached to us - i.e., 'there will always be war', because it means there will always be people who profit from death and who kill to enslave. It doesn't have to be ordained. The people of this country are as good as any other for creating peace.

Profiting from killing is not human, is not defensible.

It's time to say it again...

Wellstone...
First vote in the Senate - against Bush War I.
Last vote in the Senate - against Bush War II.

What did you call Wellstone? Meaning...how did you label him?
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. I was a big fan of Wellstone. He was progressive in my sense of the word
And he did vote against this disastrous war.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. Wellstone was great.
Apparently he was a fan of Wes Clark, and pushed very hard for us to get involved in the Balkans.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #60
141. You claimed that people are actively attempting to destroy us.
And then you, in the same breath, want us to sing kumbayah? That's where I saw the contradiction, buddy.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Did either Clintons "endorse" Clark? If so, I must have missed it
if they did. I know that Michael Moore, McGovern, Madonna, the Washington Blade (large Gay Newspaper), and the Native American Times all endorsed Clark. I don't know if they are considered Centrists or Centrists publications. Are they?

Gore did endorse Dean, though. Was Gore Centrist establishment? I guess once he lost his race, he was no longer. Right?

I heard Howard Dean call himself a centrist. Is he?

I think it's good that Clark cannot be labeled as easily as many might want to. I think that means he's hard to peg and label. Good for him!

Labels make me puke.
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Clark Bayh 2008 Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
125. Since Hill wouldn't run in '04 I believe they did encourage him
so that he could take the VP slot in 2008 for Hillary.

If Hillary doesn't run, I think she will endorse WC in summer 2007 to save the party a long drawn out primary campaign to focus on the general election.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #37
127. Of course they didn't endorse Clark
You don't endorse your stalking horse. That's not smart politics.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #127
138. Been reading the Weekly Standard again, I see.
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 10:39 AM by Clark2008
:eyes:

Or maybe even, the *cough*, AP.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. Clark almost started WW3
Clark is a war criminal... Clark supported Bush Cheney Rumsfeld Wolfowitz and is now flipflopping... Clark is mentally unstable .. Clark killed innocent civilians... Clark was promoted without merit by Clinton ... Clark was fired by Clinton.... blah blah blah

The Republicans can and will do this shit. If we get the same Wes Clark who ran the miserable campaign in 2004, we are toast. Maybe Clark learned a few things last time around, but that remains to be seen.

We need someone who has the killer instinct without appearing ruthless, and I'm unconvinced Clark is that candidate. I'll support him if he gets the nomination, but I think nominating him is not a smart idea.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. hahahahahaha
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 07:18 PM by FrenchieCat
So BushCO. will call Clark a War Criminal? How Quaint! In your wildest dreams, maybe. If anything, Wes might be called that in the primaries by extreme leftists prodded by the RW....but not in the general election.

WWIII has already started, or hadn't you heard. Someone by the name of Bush started that one.

Clark won the last war we ever fought AND WON without a single American Casualty and with relatively few civilian deaths (approx 500)....a war against Genocide that even the Late Pope found to be a "just" war. Do you actually think that the GOP will actually come up and take a chance that these facts would be hightlighted? NO, it's just too close to home.

In reference to Clark being mentally unstable; that didn't work during the last primaries. When folks see Clark and how he carries himself, they get the message pretty quickly that the man is as stable as it gets. He has gotten too many positive reviews over the years from Republicans and Democrats alike to be considered unstable...all of the sudden out of nowhere.

In reference to Clark running a bad campaign....that was the MSM meme, and wasn't proven out although many bought (obviously...like yourself) into the "not ready for primetime" label slapped on him. Just like many bought into the meme that Edwards could talk owls out of a tree.

Those not giving Clark credit for having a campaign up and running in record time, are not being fair to his skills. The man entered in mid September without a personal fortune....and by January '04 had raised the most money for that quarter (beating out Dean). Remember that he had to hire left-over campaign strategist (since there were 9 other campaigns going on), had no experience running before, had to develop position papers in record time (was not a life time politician with a ready made staff)...and was attacked relentlessly by both parties, as he was everyone's nightmare if he did well.

Because he chose not to contest Iowa (due to too short a time and too little resources)....he missed the big media blitz that blew Kerry and Edwards onto the finish line.

Still less than a week prior to Iowa and left out of the whole media blitz, Clark was polling 2nd in New Hampshire, 4 points behind Howard Dean, and 1st in Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, North Dakota and 2nd in South Carolina.

Regardless of the media slams and the media ignores, Clark still managed to come in third in New Hampshire (after the two favorite New England sons, Kerry and Dean), win the only primary besides Kerry that wasn't his home state, and won second place (without free publicity help that Kerry and Edwards both got in spade) in New Mexico, Arizona and North Dakota. With all of Edwards' press, Clark still outdid Edwards on Mini Tuesday's primaries.

Coming in third in Tennessee and Virginia (due to receiving no press, while the media sold us Kerry and Edwards) was his signal that the media had ruled him out, and with no publicity, it was near impossible as the "sheeples" barely knew he was still running.
IMO, Clark did great with his campaign, if one considers the circumstances! Plus, he didn't wear out his welcome, and left the race gracefully and in a dignified manner.

Clark's problem was always winning the primary (with the RW inspired he's not a real Democrat; he voted for Reagan), not the general election, which is why Drudge and Gillespie worked overtime to slime him before it was too late. To think that 4 days prior to New Hampshire, Clark got slammed in the NH debate for respecting Michael Moore's right to call Bush AWOL demonstrate that it wasn't Clark's campaigning that was bad, but the way that the corporate media chose to report on it.

Always remember that the Corporate media is not your friend. Please don't repeat their lines. Not Newsweek and its partners MSnbc, NBC, and CNBC, and the WAPO. Not Time Magazine and its wife CNN. Not Fox and its Drudge alliance. Reading "not ready from primetime" really meant "let's bring him down, before anyone realizes that this could be the guy". Unless one actually attended his rallies or watch his town halls, most have no idea how effective Wes Clark actually was. He was the only one talking Values and slamming Bush on 9/11 time and time again. The media just didn't want him to be heard. He made too much sense, he was too charismatic, he was too southern, and carried himself like too much of a leader (he was after all a retired General, supreme Commander of Nato, and the most decorated since Eisenhower). To allow the Democrats that kind of firepower was not what BushCo and Corporate media anticipated. That kind of combination with reasonable media coverage would have spelled Bu-Bye to Bush).
Couldn't have that.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #32
110. not this cannard ... this drizzly shit AGAIN!
How many times will we hear this discredited piece of shit?

General Jackson was a hyperbolic, hysterical punk ... AND perpetrated human rights abuses in Northern Ireland. Screw him.

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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #110
139. It doesn't matter if it is discredited.
The Republicans can and will use it. You guys need to recognize this. All I see is spirit, but the mind and body of Team Clark aren't completely here yet.

I learned from the last election that having a good bio, and even military experience, won't win us elections. Bill Clinton and W. Bush have less than superlative bios, but they did well because of they way they play the political game. Given the events of the last primary, I'm not convinced Clark has *any* game.

Let us take the mind. For starters, when I was supporting Dean, I told the hordes of Clarkies here that winning Iowa and New Hampshire are worth millions in free advertising a piece and winning Iowa was especially important. No no no, Clark was the greatest thing since sliced bread I was told, and I was just believing people who hated Clark, despite the rationality of winning these two primaries. Well, Kerry won Iowa, used the momentum to win NH, and steamrolled his way to the nomination.

By the body not being here, I mean that mechanics matter. Election 2000 was close because Gore gained a few points at the end because of the way Team Bush handled the DUI charges. They had Bush out in the middle of the night in front of a brick building being interrogated by reporters -- he looked like a criminal instead of a statesman. Most Deaniacs refuse to acknowledge that he toasted his candidacy in part by the wild-eyed scream -- they think it was a media conspiracy, voters should be rational, the DLC was out to get him, blah blah blah.

Similar behavior exists within the Clark camp. Clark's concession speeches were crap. The best way to go is to have the candidate behind a raised podium significantly in front of a massive crowd in the background. It gives the candidate stature and makes it look like everyone loves him. Edwards did this well losing in Iowa, which partly why he had continued success. Clark, however, had a very small amount of people behind him in NH compared to the other candidates, and wasn't sufficiently in front of the crowd nor was raised on a tall enough platform. He looked diminutive.

There are good reasons not to be excited about Clark, and I'd wish you guys would stop trying to ram him down everyone's throat.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. Is the door still open for others to run....or is it Clark hands down?
Just wondering. Yes, he most definitely has the most support here. He really truly does. But can others still run in 08? Does that mean no other candidate can get back in the running at DU or anywhere there are polls which Clark wins?

Other websites have talked about these polls as well. Just mentioning a few things.

This is real life we are facing our troubles in now. Internet polls do not necessarily reflect that real life.

You would do your General a favor not to have so many polls.

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. You are assuming it is Clark supporters who are posting these polls.
And you are wrong in that assumption.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. So who is posting the polls?
And why?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Various posters on DU.
None of them in recent memory have been posted by dedicated Clark supporters to my knowledge. I guess people are just curious?

It might be interesting if someone started keeping formal track of the posters who are posting these polls and their candidate preference. Better yet would be if everyone just stopped posting the polls. They are needlessly divisive.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. I agree with you about the polls being divisive
Though I do think that threads will real information about the candidates would be helpful.

I am no fan of Clark, for a great many reasons, and I am hoping to see Kerry "re-elected" since I believe Greg Palast's analysis of the 2004 election. However, I really like Kucinich and Boxer has done some things I really like over the years. I am open to most of the candidates though, and I'd like to actually learn why people are voting for their candidate.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. The silly thing is there are no "candidates".
We just lost an election, so why are we re-enacting the 2004 primary? I admit that I want Clark or Feingold to get the nomination, but this is so far away that it's ridiculous to put a lot of energy into the notion. Nobody has officially stated he/she is running in 2008, yet we DUers are already battling it out! Oh, well. :D
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
54.  "I am no fan of Clark, for a great many reasons".....Whoa!
Such mystery! Such allure!
Pray...Please do tell! :popcorn:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
86. Straw Poll....Here's the link:
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
58. Would you mind posting links to these polls that have been started
by Clark supporters? I agree with you that they are not doing the General any favors by posting them. I just don't know who they are, and would like to find out so that I can have a word with them about their activities.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. Do I search under each name or under polls? or how?
I agree with you that many are trying to start something, but I will not have a clue how to search for that.

Am I under some obligation to prove anything? People are always accusing me of attacks, but I don't. Then when I say to find something, they won't.

Searching for all the polls here could be very time-confusing. I will give you that there are trouble-makers, but not all. Not my job to prove anything. Not my job at all.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. You're under no obligation to prove anything,
but generally, when someone makes an assertion, it's best to back it up with some kind of evidence.

You seemed to me to be asserting that many of these candidate polls are started by Clark supporters. I haven't seen any evidence for that myself. I guess I was hoping that you would provide some evidence to back your assertion, if that is indeed what you are doing.

If I'm mistaken about that, please tell me. But I simply can't take seriously a claim that Clarkies are posting lots of candidate polls to DU, unless there is some evidence provided to back that claim.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. You totally misunderstood what I said. I am talking about something else.
I am talking about organizing to go and vote in polls at so many sites. Everyone does that on things like when CNN or MSNBC put up polls about something. We do that here.

I am talking about something else which is to the extreme almost. Is it really wrong? I guess not. It is really annoying to others? Yes. Is it a picture of the real world? No.

We all did a little of this during the primaries. But never this much. There is no one running, and if someone tries to start something by posting a poll, just ignore it. Organizing to vote in polls when no one is running is just a little much.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #67
89. Here....my bad for not including it in the post...
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #67
94. Mad, chill!
I'm not accusing you of anything, and of course it's nobody's job here to do that! I was just responding to your post with some random musings, that's all.

By the way, I really do appreciate your postings about Dean's doings. It's something I can't get from the MSM. Keep up the good work! :-)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I wish folks would quit telling me to "chill." I am not even mad.
Not at all.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #95
128. You seem fairly chilled to me
:shrug:

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
76. Here's a link to the poll...sorry ...should have posted it originally:
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. Yes, I'm quite familiar with that poll.
I was asking to see links to polls of this nature that have been started by Clark supporters. The poster who started that poll has clearly stated that he's an Edwards supporter.

I'm specifically looking for evidence for claims that seem to be getting made that Clark supporters are somehow mainly responsible for the posting of these polls.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Oh...sorry, can't help you with that. I don't know the affiliations of DU
members unless it's in their posting name...:shrug:
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Where were those claims made, Crunchy?
:shrug:

Did I miss something?
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CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #98
112. I'm not Crunchy, janx,
but don't you think "You would do your General a favor not to have so many polls." gives the impression that it is Clark supporters starting the polls? Unless we have the power to delete polls posted by someone other than ourselves, I just don't see how we can "do our General a favor by not having so many polls" if we aren't starting the polls ourselves.

Maybe it's just a badly worded sentence....
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #112
130. You got an impression and someone is supposed to back up
You got an impression and someone is supposed to back up, with facts, something she never actually said, because of your impression. And you expect her to go searching around DU wasting her time because of your impression. Interesting.
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CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #130
135. Whoa Molly...
Step back a bit. I never asked anyone to do anything...just answering a question, OK?
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #98
124. There seemed to be some insinuation that these polls were being
started by Clark supporters, but I admit I may have been imagining things. It's no big deal.:shrug:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
99. They'd do their General a favor by not acting like streetcorner preachers
with campaign tracts in their hands.

"Do you know the General, brother?"
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #99
140. Well, the corporate media certainly didn't provide any info on him
I think that's why we Clarkies are so well-versed in Clark's positions.
I've had many people ask me about Clark and why they didn't have any more info on him or why the media didn't provide such.
The problem is with the media - not the candidate.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. AAAWWWW, Eisenhower Was A General Too!
And my father constantly complained about him being on the Golf Course!!!

Just a bit of humor. I could do an Edwards/Clark hook-up. I'm BIG on Edwards, not simply because of his ambition and youthfulness, but because of ELIZABETH! She tops the list for First Lady!

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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
71. Too bad her husband has such little experience.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:19 PM by Clark2008
I like Elizabeth, too, but I'm no fan of her hubby. Maybe she should be the candidate.
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woosh Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
45. After watching the Frontline on Rove last night
I'm starting to be won over to the Clark camp. This is no small feat, I was a registered green who just changed to Dem.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. There were a lot of Greens supporting Clark in the meetups
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 07:25 PM by Clarkie1
during the primary. Especially in Marin County (California Bay Area) I remember there was a particular meetup where the diversity and number of NEWLY REGISTERED democrats supporting Clark was just astounding (Greens, Republicans, Libertarians). I don't remember the details offhand, but the local paper printed an article about it.

I'm an environmentalist too, and I do believe Clark really understands its importance. His 100-year vision statement states correctly that the two most important things we will leave our children and grandchildren are our physical (natural) environment and our constitutional environment.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #48
107. Greens?! But the Pentagon (USA, Inc.) is one of the worst polluters.
Not only does the Pentagon fill our drinking water with jet fuel and cover the world with depleted uranium, it is destroying ocean wildlife like whales and dolphins with sonar testing.

Worse, the Pentagon is fucking with the ionosphere with the HAARP project and even screwed with the Van Allen Belts that trap charged particles from the sun when it set off a 150 megaton nuclear bomb in the atmosphere in 1962.

Anyone who even knows there IS and environment should be screaming at the Pentagon, not voting for it.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #107
116. Did you see "The Pentagon" running in this poll? I didn't. n/t
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #107
119. ON the slim chance you're confusing an individual with an institution.
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 08:52 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Part One (too long for a single post)

Here are Clark's answers to the League of Conservation Voters Questionaire from his 2004 race (you may want to particularly look at 30c) John, and also 2c):

League of Conservation Voters Questionnaire

Introduction
This questionnaire is designed to elicit your responses and your ideas regarding what environmental groups consider the most important national environmental issues of the day. In some cases, we refer to certain bills or environmental positions, which are before the Congress or the Executive at this time. Where you may differ with the position as stated or implied by the question, please give us your views on these goals. If you have an environmental record, please cite examples of your past accomplishments. LCV is, however, looking for your vision of leadership on these key issues, in addition to your record.
This questionnaire is due by close of business on Monday, August 4. If you have questions, please contact Betsy Loyless at 202-785-8683. LCV’s fax number is 202-835-0491. Thank you.

Natural Resources and Public Lands

1. Public Lands
This nation’s 630 million acres of public land are a resource enjoyed by Americans today, and are a natural heritage legacy for future generations. These public lands include America’s parks, wildlife refuges, national forests, and lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Wilderness areas are protected within all four management systems.

1a. Would you support designating the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge as a wilderness area, to put it permanently off limits to oil and gas development?

Yes. We should pass this pristine wilderness on to our children just as we found it.

1b. Would you support the moratorium on new road construction and logging in the roadless and undeveloped portions of our national forests?

Yes. Wild places should stay wild. Building new roads in the undeveloped portions of our national forests makes no sense economically or environmentally.

1c. Do you support more snowmobiles, jetski and ORV use in our parks?

No. I think we should ensure diverse recreation opportunities for all Americans on our public lands. Decisions about which lands are suitable for different uses should be supported by environmental impact analyses and full public involvement.

1d. Would you reverse the Bush administration’s decision to deny future wilderness consideration of BLM land?

Yes. The Bush administration policy does not even permit land managers to analyze whether wilderness is the best use of the land. It is an unbalanced and myopic approach.

1e. What policies would you institute to protect communities at risk from forest fires?

I would instruct the Forest Service to thin fire-prone forests and underbrush near homes and communities. I would help communities and homes most at risk by increasing fire fighting capacity and helping people fireproof homes. I would insist that Congress provide adequate funding to accomplish these steps. I would not allow logging of older, larger trees (which tend to be more fire resistant), particularly when those trees are located miles from homes and communities. I would also explore ways of using my National Civilian Reserves Plan to send volunteers who have been properly trained to assist in fire prevention and fire suppression.

1f. Do you support continuing protection for offshore areas from oil and gas drilling?

Yes. These continuing protections exist for important reasons, including the protection of coastal ecosystems and the concerns of those living in coastal areas with respect to oil and gas drilling.


2. Wildlife
The Endangered Species Act (ESA), passed in 1973, provides protection for threatened and endangered species of plants and animals. The law preserves these species for their own sake, and serves to maintain the overall health of larger natural systems necessary for the preservation of other species. Critics claim the law unduly restricts private property rights and interferes with reasonable economic development of land. Some observers believe the ESA should provide incentives, like tax breaks, for private landowners to encourage them to help save imperiled species.

2a. Do you support the goal of this law? Do you believe that current efforts are sufficient to recover our declining plants and wildlife?

I strongly support the goals of the Endangered Species Act – to protect the ecosystems upon which threatened and endangered species depend, to protect the species themselves from extinction, and to implement our obligations under international conservation agreements. While I believe the ESA has been quite successful in the 30 years since its enactment, more needs to be done to stem the tide of extinctions. We should once again pursue multi-species habitat conservation plans over wide landscapes. These plans protect species, as well as the economic interests of landowners. As Professor E.O. Wilson has said, allowing species to go extinct is the folly future generations are least likely to forgive us.

2b. How, if at all, would you propose to modify the law in regard to its application to private landowners?

I would not be inclined to seek changes in the law from the current Congress or any similar future Congresses. Instead, I would focus on administrative reforms. The current law – through administrative efforts such as habitat conservation plans, streamlined processes, candidate conservation agreements, and “no surprise” assurances – can readily protect species and address private landowner concerns.

2c. Would you support additional exemptions from the ESA for the Department of Defense?

No. Additional exemptions aren’t needed. I spent a lot of time in the Army and, in all my years of service, complying with the environmental laws never compromised the military readiness of troops under my command.


3. Oceans
Conservation of the ocean’s living resources, particularly fish populations and the marine ecosystems they support, has never achieved the same priority as other environmental initiatives. Management of living resources within the United States 200-mile exclusive economic zone is the responsibility of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Fisheries Service (NOAA Fisheries) under authority of the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act. The Act was amended and the conservation provisions strengthened by Congress in 1996, but NOAA Fisheries has been slow to implement the changes necessary to protect declining fish populations and threatened marine ecosystems.

3a. Do you support rebuilding fish populations that have been overfished in order to protect marine ecosystems and preserve long-term economic benefits, even if this results in adverse short-term economic impacts?

Many fish populations, especially commercially fished populations, are classified as “fully fished.” This not only threatens our fragile marine ecosystem, but also threatens the American fishing industry. Currently, declining fisheries are producing far below their potential at a cost of billions a year. Yet, government estimates show how managing our marine ecosystems in an environmentally sustainable manner could generate many thousands of new jobs. If this results in some adverse short-term economic impacts, we must provide support and assistance to affected individuals and communities. Significantly, in many places around the world overfishing can be addressed by phasing out costly government subsidies for overcapitalized fishing fleets. However, the long-term economic and ecological benefits make these adjustments imperative. I believe we need to manage our marine ecosystem in an environmentally sustainable manner to ensure healthy marine life and a plentiful supply of fish for generations to come.
Protecting the environment is necessary for a healthy economy and healthy citizens. The human side of the story is in the fishing communities themselves. We want to help preserve the culture of these fishing communities, and if conservation is not enhanced and over-fishing continues, these communities will be devastated.


4. Mining
Right now, mining on public lands for metals like gold, copper and silver is given preferential treatment over all other uses of the land. This type of mining produces more toxic waste than any other industry, and has polluted 40% of the stream reaches of Western watersheds, according to the EPA. Metals mining has also contaminated water with acid and heavy metals, destroyed landscapes and wildlife habitat, and damaged public spaces. The 1872 Mining Law is one of the major culprits in this story – the antiquated law contains no mining-specific environmental or cleanup standards, and allows companies to mine on public lands with virtually no return to taxpayers.

4a. Would you support changes to the law to allow other uses of the land, such as hiking, clean water, wildlife habitat, hunting and fishing, to be weighed equally against mining when determining uses of public lands?

I would support such changes to provide additional clarity in this area, although I believe that current law in fact allows federal land managers to treat hiking, clean water, wildlife habitat, hunting, and fishing the same as mining in determining uses of public lands. With wise management and strong enforcement of current laws, we can achieve a balance in our use of public lands that has been absent under the Bush administration.

4b. Would you support changes to the law to require environmental and cleanup standards that apply specifically to mining?

I would support appropriate changes. However, I believe that existing laws -- properly administered -- are sufficient to compel cleanups for existing mines. We need sound management and strong enforcement of current laws.

4c. Would you support a royalty system for metals mining comparable to what the oil and gas or coal industries have to pay for mining and drilling on public lands?

Yes. It makes no sense that the gold industry, for example, pays nothing to take minerals from the federal taxpayer.
Global Warming; Energy, Transportation, and Land Use


5. Global Warming
Global warming is caused by pollution that comes mostly from cars and power plants and builds up in the atmosphere trapping heat like a blanket. Global warming is the most far-reaching environmental problem our civilization has ever faced. The hottest 10 years on record have occurred since 1980 culminating in 1998, the hottest year ever recorded. The world’s leading scientists warn that if the nations of the world fail to cut greenhouse gas emissions, we are likely to commit the world to massive irreversible damage—rising sea levels, crop damage, heat-related deaths, mass extinction of species and the spread of infectious diseases.

The U.S., with 4% of the world’s population, is the largest emitter of gases that cause global warming; it is responsible for contributing over 23% of world carbon dioxide emissions. Two- thirds of the U.S. carbon dioxide pollution comes from transportation and energy generation. We have the technology and know-how to lead the world in energy efficiency and clean energy, while creating good-paying jobs here at home and strengthening America’s economy.

Virtually all of the other industrial nations have already committed themselves to start acting to reduce their own carbon pollution. We cannot stop global warming unless all important contributors to this pollution problem do their fair share. But, the average American is responsible for 10 times as much global warming pollution as the average Chinese, and 20 times as much as the average Indian. We have the know-how and the resources to lead the way forward to new clean technologies that produce energy without pollution.

5a. Do you support a reduction in U.S. emissions of carbon dioxide? Do you support a mandatory cap on U.S. emissions of carbon dioxide and other global warming pollutants?

Global warming is a problem we can fix. America leads the world in the know-how and the technology to start cutting global warming pollution immediately, while at the same time, enhancing our quality of life. However, President Bush has failed the test of leadership and stewardship on this issue. He says we should rely on the coal and oil industries as well as on the power and auto companies to police themselves. He opposes any limits on carbon dioxide pollution. He even refuses to call it “pollution.” Under his do-nothing plan, global warming will just keep getting worse.
Solving this problem requires real accountability. As president, I will reduce global warming pollution from our power plants, factories, and vehicles using the market-based “cap-and-trade” approach that has worked so successfully to combat acid rain. I will take action under our current clean air laws and work with Congress to enact new ones that curb all major pollutants from our power plants and reduce global warming emissions from the industries that contribute to this problem.

5b. Do you support U.S. participation in a binding international treaty that caps emissions of carbon dioxide and other global warming pollutants?

Global warming is a global problem. While we must begin to clean up our own emissions, we cannot safeguard the American people from the dangers of global warming solely by action here at home. We need the cooperation of all nations that contribute significantly to this problem, and American leadership in this regard is essential. But President Bush unilaterally walked away from the global warming treaty talks without proposing any alternatives.
As President, I will re-engage with other nations to craft a fair, effective, and enforceable international treaty that uses the free market to cap and reduce global warming pollution at the lowest possible cost. And I will work to ensure the engagement of all critical nations in a framework that safeguards our environmental security, protects the global environment, and advances economic growth and development for all.


6. Energy efficiency
Automobiles are responsible for 20% of the U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. One way to reduce this pollution is for our vehicles to use fuel more efficiently. Because of an exception in the current vehicle fuel efficiency laws, light trucks such a minivans and sport utility vehicles (SUVs), which account for nearly half of all new cars sold, are permitted 25% lower fuel economy standards (20.7 miles per gallon) than passenger cars (27.5 mpg). Fuel economy standards have not been significantly modified since the 1980’s.

6a. Would you support legislation sufficiently increasing fuel economy standards for cars, SUVs, mini-vans and other light trucks? What goals and timetables would you set?

America’s oil dependence is a grave threat to our national security, our economy, and our environment. Americans send more than $100 billion overseas each year to pay for imported oil. We already import more than half our oil, and if nothing changes, imports will increase to two-thirds by 2020. Our dependence on foreign oil limits our freedom to pursue other goals, including the war on terrorism. Also, emissions from our cars and SUVs worsen global warming.

We now have the know-how and technology to make cars and SUVs that go twice as far on a gallon of gas by using more efficient engines and transmissions, including hybrid cars that use both gasoline and an electric motor. As President, in consultation with scientists, environmental groups, industry, and others, I will set new standards to raise the fuel economy and reduce the emissions of cars, SUVs, and light trucks. The choice of specific goals and timetables will depend on a careful analysis of the existing data on technology, trends, and emissions from this sector as well as policy approaches to help industry meet those goals. We can clearly achieve a great deal in this area. With better, cleaner cars, we can fight global warming, reduce our oil dependence, and strengthen our economy.

6b. What additional means of reducing transportation-related
emissions would you support?

First, we need to provide tax incentives to get hybrids or other highly efficient vehicles into the marketplace and out on the road. With currently existing technology we can make great strides in reducing emissions. Second, I will put a stop to President Bush’s interference with California’s pioneering program to cut global warming pollution from new vehicles. Third, my Administration will lead an aggressive effort to promote the development of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which hold great promise for the future. Fourth, I will increase support for better public transportation and other measures to clean the air in new highway legislation.

6c. Would you support a renewable energy standard that would achieve 20% renewable energy by the year 2020?

Renewable energy has an enormously important role to play in our energy future, because of the opportunity it presents to reduce pollution, clean the air we breathe, and mitigate climate change. I endorse the standard supported by Senate Democrats for inclusion in the energy bill. A 20% standard by 2020 is aggressive, but it's the kind of goal we should set our sights on and then work with Congress to devise the right kind of policies to achieve.


7. Power plants
The electric power industry is the nation’s largest source of air pollution. Our power plants emit 40% of all U.S. carbon pollution – 10% of all carbon pollution in the world. They also release other dangerous air pollutants that cause up to 40,000 early deaths each year, as well as thousands of asthma attacks and hospitalizations.

7a. Would you support legislation that controls all four air pollutants that come from power plants including carbon dioxide, does not weaken current law, maintains safeguards for national parks and prevent local pollution increases?

President Bush has proposed new legislation – mis-named “Clear Skies” – that actually would weaken current clean air laws and let the nation’s power plants continue to pollute at unsafe levels. For this President, environmental policy is all about rhetoric, not action. His plan would be much worse for the health of our children and all Americans -- especially those at risk for respiratory illness -- than enforcing current clean air laws. His plan does nothing to curb the carbon pollution that causes global warming.
President Bush has also weakened long-standing clean air standards. He has let power plants, oil refineries, and other big factories undertake huge expansion projects without modernizing their pollution controls – increasing dangerous pollution in neighboring communities – simply by mis-labeling their projects as “routine maintenance.” We have already given polluters a free pass for thirty years since the passage of the Clean Air Act by not requiring them to use the best available technology to control their pollution unless they build new plants. And now that the time has come for them to install the appropriate technology – technology that was developed in the United States and installed on nearly every power plant in Germany and Japan – the Bush administration wants to change the rules of the game. Not only is this bad for the environment and the health of our community, but it is also bad economic policy. We need a level playing field: one that is fair to the utilities and refineries that have complied with the law as well as those to which this administration has sold out by changing the laws.

We have the technology and the know-how to do better. As President, I will carry out our existing Clean Air Act fairly and firmly, and I will work with Congress to enact legislation that curbs all four power plant pollutants that threaten our health and cause global warming. I will maintain safeguards for local communities and for our treasured national parks. We can do this. We will save thousands of lives and create thousands of jobs by doing the right thing.


8. Nuclear Materials
The U.S. has had a policy in place against reprocessing nuclear fuels since the Ford administration. One of the greatest security threats to the United States today, and of paramount concern to American citizens since September 11th, is that nuclear weapons-usable materials will be stolen, seized or secretly diverted from nuclear facilities. It would then used by terrorists to develop and deliver a crude nuclear explosive device, or by a hostile proliferant state to develop more sophisticated nuclear weapons.

8a. Would you oppose the U.S. reprocessing nuclear fuels? Would you support exporting nuclear fuel reprocessing technologies?

I believe reprocessing spent nuclear fuel creates serious environmental and security risks without securing us a reliable, safe energy supply. It is critical that the U.S. maintain its 25-year opposition to reprocessing. Commercial reprocessing fuel creates bomb-grade nuclear material; I believe that we should be working to reduce, not increase, the supply of such material. I oppose changing U.S. law to support the reprocessing of nuclear fuels to produce plutonium either at home or abroad.
I also believe we should stop focusing on the power supplies of the 20th century, such as nuclear, coal, and oil power, and instead develop the energy supplies of the 21st century, such as hydrogen, wind, and solar energy. These sustainable energy supplies will advance our national security interests, create sustainable jobs, and facilitate the development of our renewable resources.

8b. How would you improve security at the places nuclear materials are now stored, both internationally and at home?

Secure storage requires, at a minimum, physical protection, material tracking systems, detection capabilities, and rapid response plans. Where these are missing or in doubt, we must work to establish and maintain them. Our nation's nuclear power plants are potential terrorist targets, and thus, we must do everything we can to prevent the devastation that a successful terrorist attack on a nuclear power plant would cause. When the Nuclear Regulatory Commission conducts mock assaults on our nation's nuclear power plants, they tell the power plants beforehand. The Commission also allows the plants to have extra guards for the day of the drill--guards that would not be on hand in the event of an actual attack. I would insist on surprise drills of our nation's nuclear power plants, so that we can get a more realistic assessment of the plants' preparedness level. If terrorists ever attack our nuclear power plants, they won't give advance notice, and so neither should our regulators. In the years ahead, international co-operation and additional resources will be needed to improve security measures and protect against sabotage. I would show international leadership and work with our allies to enhance security at all of the world's nuclear power plants, because this is a global problem.


9. Nuclear waste
Nuclear waste, whether low-level, transuranic, or high-level, is lethal. Environmental groups believe that federal nuclear policies must be based on science and that protection of public health and the environment are paramount. The current administration is aggressively preparing a license application for the proposed Yucca Mountain facility in Nevada and making efforts at Department of Energy (DOE) sites nationwide to either relax nuclear waste cleanup standards or void regulatory obligations. As an example, and despite a pending court challenge, DOE is planning top abandon significant amounts of high-level radioactive waste in Washington, Idaho, South Carolina and New York.

9a. Do you oppose weakening of environmental and public health laws regarding nuclear waste disposition?

Yes.

9b. How would you propose to deal with high-level radioactive waste in leaking storage tanks presently in Washington, Idaho, South Carolina and New York?

As a general matter, the government must take responsibility for protecting its citizens from dangerous waste created as part of our weapons production programs. I would need to review the specifics with respect to each of the storage sites involved to determine in detail the proper action to be taken at the site. The action, obviously, should be based on the best available science and untainted by politics. The workers at these sites and their families living in the area have already made sacrifices for our national defense by virtue of their work on these weapons. It would be highly irresponsible to apply less rigorous environmental and scientific standards to these areas by virtue of this commitment to our national defense.


10. Nuclear Energy
Nuclear power plants now supply about 20% of U.S. electric energy. While the nuclear industry argues that nuclear power should be seen as a solution to global warming, the entire nuclear fuel cycle (from uranium mining, milling and enrichment to waste disposal and reactor decommissioning) is (1) a potential source of material for nuclear weapons or terrorist activities; (2) inherently subject to serious accidents (and fully dependent on taxpayer funded safety net in the event of such a serious accident); (3) damaging to land, water and air (e.g., the uranium enrichment process in this country has significant carbon emissions); (4) produces radioactive waste that will be dangerous for hundreds of thousands of years; and (5) cannot compete in the energy marketplace without significant federal subsidies for existing reactors and for research and development.

10a. Do you support the current administration’s $400 million in subsidies to the commercial nuclear industry for research and development in new nuclear reactors?

No.

10b. Should issues such as environmental impacts, cost-efficiency and vulnerabilities to terrorist threats be considerations in deciding whether nuclear power remains a viable energy option?

Yes. Issues such as environmental impacts (here including waste disposal as a critical issue), cost-efficiency, and vulnerabilities to terrorist threats should always be part of the equation in deciding the makeup of the country’s energy portfolio.


11. Sprawl
Many Americans now consider suburban sprawl -- low-density, automobile dependent development beyond the edge of service and employment areas -- to be a fast growing and obvious threat to their local environment. Suburban sprawl is contributing to the loss of farms, forests, wildlife habitat, wetlands, open space and water quality. Longer commutes and increased traffic congestion causes air pollution. State and local governments are beginning to pursue sprawl-fighting, smart growth strategies.

11a. What role should the federal government play in helping communities address this fast-growing threat to their quality of life and environment?

Smart growth is not synonymous with no growth. Although land use planning is ultimately a local choice, the federal government can ensure that local communities have the resources and expertise to protect their communities, and that federal policies do not encourage sprawling development. The federal government should support mass transit and other measures that would mitigate runaway sprawl.

11b. Would you support changing federal policies and funding priorities that contribute to or encourage suburban sprawl? For example, would you support providing a greater portion of the Highway Trust Fund for transit and alternative transportation choices rather than highway construction and expansion?

I believe the federal government should review its policies and funding priorities to ensure that they do not encourage sprawl. One example is to spend less on highways and more on mass transit.

11c. Would you support federal tax incentives to help local communities set aside open space, protect water quality, and clean up abandoned industrial sites in urban areas? What other measures would you support to address these problems?

Yes. Tax incentives are a powerful and effective tool to help local communities protect the environment and improve quality of life. In partnership with the federal government and state governments, local communities should be given every tool they need to preserve parks, ball fields, trails, and other open space in their neighborhoods, as well as cleaning up their water and any abandoned hazardous sites. When we protect our environment, all Americans benefit.
International


12. Global Population
World population is increasing by 77 million people per year. Continued human population growth aggravates virtually all environmental problems including deforestation, extinction of species through habitat loss, land degradation, global warming, air and water pollution, and freshwater scarcity. With these problems increasingly challenging the governments of developing and developed countries alike, slower population growth and eventual population stabilization are critical to environmental sustainability. Through its assistance for family planning services, the U.S. government has contributed significantly to the fertility decline that has occurred in developing countries since the 1960s. By law, no U.S. foreign assistance funds may be used to provide abortion services.

12a. Do you support increased funding for the U.S. portion of international population assistance necessary to achieve universal access to contraception by the year 2015?

Yes. The U.S. should increase its funding for international population assistance, which advances U.S. foreign policy goals by promoting sustainable population development and health. This funding supports family planning and related reproductive health services through programs administered by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). Such programs directly benefit tens of millions of couples each year, improving both maternal and child health and contributing to slower population growth rates. Despite the fact that the United States is the largest bilateral funding source for population assistance programs, the United States is still not contributing its fair share of the funds needed. From the perspective of national wealth, the United States is dead last among donor nations in overall development assistance, contributing only 0.1% of its wealth. As President, I support giving women all over the world access to information they deserve to make crucial personal health decisions -- decisions that ultimately affect the ability of our planet to sustain healthy populations.
Increasing our funding for international population assistance reflects my vision for a New American Patriotism and shows our willingness as an international leader to address the needs of developing nations.

12b. In 2002, the United States withdrew its $34 million contribution to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), which supports family planning programs in over 150 countries. Do you support reinstating a U.S. contribution to UNFPA with safeguards to ensure that no funds provided by the United States are used by UNFPA for abortion or in China?

Yes. The United States needs to reinstate its $34 million contribution to the United Nations Population Fund. While the United States should always reserve the right to ensure funds contributed by American taxpayers are spent on programs representative of American values, the UNFPA is a program that deserves our support. The UNFPA works to promote reproductive health in the world’s poorest countries, helping to ensure the safe delivery of healthy babies, even in unsafe environments. Through educational programs and contraceptives, UNFPA aggressively fights the spread of HIV/AIDS as well as reduces the need for abortion. As a result, UNFPA saves thousands of women and children’s lives every year. Officials at the UNFPA estimate that the $34 million contribution from the United States prevents two million unwanted pregnancies, nearly 800,000 induced abortions, 4,700 maternal deaths, nearly 60,000 cases of maternal illness or disability, and 77,000 infant and child deaths.
Additionally, as anti-American sentiment grows, we could help mitigate this trend by continuing our commitment to international organizations, especially aid organizations. Supporting UNFPA shows the U.S. is committed to addressing health issues facing developing countries.


13. Trade
The North American Free Trade Agreement and the World Trade Organization restrict domestic and international law in order to promote international trade and investment. Dispute panels under these agreements have ruled against a number of environmental and health laws, including clean gasoline standards, sea turtle protections, and food safety standards. In order to comply with the rulings, governments may be forced to weaken laws or regulations. In other instances, the U.S. government has proactively weakened environmental standards to comply with international trade rules. For example, the U.S. has established weak standards to control imported tree and fruit pests in order to avoid trade conflicts.

13a. What steps would you take to prevent international trade bodies and international trade agreements from weakening public health and environmental laws?

I believe in free and fair trade. I believe that, properly negotiated, trade agreements can open markets for U.S. products while ensuring that U.S. environment and public health laws remain the strongest in the world. While efforts to open markets can provide important mutual benefits to both countries, its critical that we work to ensure that trade agreements are always designed to raise all boats and never lead to a race to the bottom on either labor standards or the environment. I think that it is critical that prior to the conclusion of any trade agreements the United States should undertake a full environmental impact assessment. In order to be certain that U.S. laws are protected, we need to make the dispute mechanisms in NAFTA, WTO, and other agreements less secretive and more accountable. NGOs, including environmental groups, should be allowed to present their case in front of NAFTA chapter 11 tribunals and other trade dispute bodies. We will work to address the unintended negative consequences of NAFTA chapter 11 so that foreign investors do not have special standing to challenge U.S. public health and environmental laws. Future free trade agreements must contain similar built-in controls that ensure the environment will not suffer as a result. As President, I'll make sure these protections are central to all future trade agreements. With these steps and others, we make sure that a fair and open trading system promotes economic growth while improving the environment around the world.

13b. Would you increase congressional oversight and public involvement in trade negotiations to better ensure that future trade agreements protect public health and the environment? How would you do so?

Congress and the public have an important role to play in crafting trade agreements. As President, I'll work with Congress and environmental groups closely on trade. I'll improve the current practice of conducting environmental reviews of trade agreements, promote openness and transparency in the negotiation of trade agreements,f and push to open trade dispute processes to the public (for example, by allowing non-governmental organizations to file amicus curiae briefs in cases involving the environment).


14. Biodiversity
There is a consensus among the world’s leading scientists that one of the greatest long-term threats to human welfare is the loss of species and their natural habitat, collectively resulting in the massive loss of biological diversity. The international Convention on Biological Diversity was negotiated in 1992 to help provide for a coordinated international effort to deal with biodiversity loss problems. The Convention has been ratified by 187 countries—nearly every country on earth. In spite of the fact that the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations overwhelmingly approved ratification, the United States (along with Iraq and Somalia) is one of only seven countries that has not joined this important treaty.

14a. Will you work to persuade the Senate to ratify the Convention?

Yes. Loss of biodiversity is one of the greatest environmental challenge facing the world today. U.S. participation in the Convention on Biological Diversity would help make the treaty a more powerful for meeting this important challenge.


15. Participation in international environmental agreements
The biodiversity and climate change conventions are only two of the many multilateral environmental treaties to which the United States is not a party—including important agreements on persistent organic pollutants, hazardous chemicals and wastes, the law of the sea, environmental impact assessment and public participation. The consistent failure to participate has transformed the United States from a leader to a laggard in global environmental cooperation, jeopardizing not only our shared environment but also our ability to influence new international rules in these areas.

15a. What will you do to speed ratification of important environmental agreements and restore the United States to its historic leadership role in global environmental issues?

Nowhere is the failure of President Bush’s unilateralism more clear than on questions of global environmental security. America is not an island. There are no barriers that separate us from the global atmosphere or the oceans. Our health is protected and our economy prospers when we engage and lead in international efforts to protect the earth’s shared atmosphere, oceans, and living resources.
As President, I will work with the leaders of the Senate to rebuild the consensus for U.S. participation in critical environmental agreements that have languished under this administration. I will reach out to re-engage with other nations on the global environmental dangers we all face.

Environmental leadership is also an important component of American leadership for democracy around the world. Our own environmental laws are models of open government, public access to information, and participation of those with a stake in their government’s actions. As the leader of the free world, we can, and should, be a strong voice for these values abroad.


Pollution and Public Health
16. Clean Water
The Clean Water Act has been the foundation of clean water protections for over 30 years, protecting rivers, streams, lakes and ponds from pollution and destruction. Small rivers, intermittent streams, and so-called “isolated” wetlands play a crucial role in maintaining water quality. Efforts are underway to limit the ability of the federal government to protect up to 60% of the nation’s waters. Also under development are regulations to limit the ability of the state and federal governments to control runoff from farm fields, animal feedlots and city streets.

16a. Would you support and promote legislation to reaffirm the historic scope of the Clean Water Act to protect all of the nation’s waters?

Yes. All America’s waters need to be protected and a clean environment is of the highest importance to the long-term future of the American people. I believe that the Supreme Court erred in its 2001 ruling in Solid Waste Agency of Northern Cook County v. Army Corps of Engineers, when it overturned the federal government’s power to protect wetlands, streams, and other waters that may be considered isolated. The Administration has contributed to the damage caused by this decision by failing to issue guidance interpreting the court’s ruling. These actions have endangered the ecological balance in significant portions of our nation’s wetlands. Consequently, I support the Clean Water Restoration Act of 2003, which would clarify that the Clean Water Act of 1972 applies to all of the waters of the United States, and would delete the word “navigable” from the Clean Water Act. All waters of the U.S. need to be protected, not simply ones deemed navigable. I would support legislation that extends Clean Water protection to all United States waters to the full extent constitutionally permitted.

16b. How would you act to assure that sources of polluted runoff are appropriately controlled?

I believe that polluted runoff is one of our nation’s most pressing environmental problems because it is the single largest source of water pollution. It is crucial that we ensure strict control in this area. The fact is we cannot meet water quality standards if we don’t address runoff, particularly from stormwater. Here too the Bush administration is moving in the wrong direction by weakening EPA’s capacity to control water pollution. I believe the Total Maximum Daily Load program (TMDL) that was established as part of the 1972 Clean Water Act to control the amount of both point source and non-point source pollution should be continued and strengthened. The Bush administration’s proposed rulemaking would make the EPA’s responsibility to intervene when TMDL standards are not being set by states optional instead of mandatory. Therefore, I oppose the Bush Administration’s attempt to rewrite these rules. In addition with tax incentives, I would support state and local land use planning efforts to address runoff. Ensuring all Americans have clean water to drink, clean water to swim in, and clean water to fish in is not subject to political bargaining.


17. Wetlands
Wetlands - the marshes, bogs, bottom land hardwoods and estuarine areas where water meets land – act as nature’s water filters and as sponges that help prevent flooding. Our nation has lost over half its original wetlands and continues to lose over 100,000 acres of wetlands each year.

17a. How would you act to reverse the steady erosion of this natural resource?

My administration would begin immediately to enforce a “no net loss” policy. I would ensure that all wetlands, including isolated and seasonal wetlands, remain subject to the protection of the Clean Water Act. I would ensure that the Corps of Engineers and the EPA maintain regulations to protect these waters of the United States and I would call on Congress to reauthorize the Clean Water Act with these protections in place. I would ask Congress to regulate drainage and conversion of wetlands under the Clean Water Act.


18. Clean Air
According to the American Lung Association, at least 137 million people live in areas where it is unhealthy to breathe the air due to ozone or smog pollution. During the 2001 smog season, there were more than 4600 violations of EPA's health standard for smog in 42 states across the country. The elderly, children and people with asthma are especially vulnerable to the effects of air pollution. Scientists estimate that up to 40,000 Americans die prematurely each year because of fine particle pollution, or soot.
The electric power industry is the nation’s largest source of air pollution. Electric power plants produce one third of the nitrogen pollution that causes smog, and two thirds of the sulfur pollution that forms fine-particulate matter, acid rain and haze. And they produce 40% of carbon pollution, the heat-trapping chemical that causes global warming. Power plants are the largest sources of mercury emissions, which contaminate fish in our lakes and streams. The current administration has announced a “Clear Skies” proposal that purports to deal with this pollution, but would actually increase harmful emissions and air pollution compared to effectively enforcing the Clean Air Act and this proposal completely ignores global warming pollutants from this industry.

18a. What measures would you take to protect public health from air pollution?

President Bush has weakened clean air standards and programs that are supposed to protect Americans from soot, smog, and toxic pollutants like mercury. My first act to clean the air will be to restore requirements that big polluters install modern pollution controls when they expand their plants and increase their pollution. Every American has the right to breathe clean air. As President, I would roll back the Bush Administration’s effort to allow older power plants to continue polluting at high rates even as they undertake massive expansion. I think the so-called “Clear Skies” initiative is similarly misguided and shows a callous disregard for the health of all Americans, particularly those in lower-income communities.

I would support a cap-and-trade system, to reduce four major pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury and carbon dioxide. (Some areas such as those within close proximity to national parks would be subject to strict limits and might not be eligible for the trading program.) Further, as President, I would work with the EPA to set realistic and enforceable timetables to phase out and/or upgrade the dirty obsolete coal-fired power plants grandfathered by the Clean Air Act. I would also provide federal support to help develop cleaner safer energy alternatives.
My EPA will work together with the states to meet health protection standards for soot and smog, as required by law. And I will set tough new standards to curb the mercury emissions from power plants and other industries that are contaminating lakes and streams in nearly every state.

18b. Do you support comprehensive efforts to address ozone, mercury, particulate and carbon pollution?

Yes. Phasing out old plants and passing a four-pollutant cap and trade law (see 18a.) will make a large dent in both carbon and nitrogen oxide—the precursor to ozone. In addition to these measures, I'll push to close the "SUV loophole" in fuel economy standards and improve fuel efficiency. Simultaneously, the federal government should assist to develop clean and sustainable energy technologies. As part of the job plan outlined under “New American Patriotism,” the United States can be a leader in sustainable energy technologies. Not only can these technologies help the environment, but they will also provide sustainable jobs to this country. Finally, we need to re-engage with the international community to address carbon emissions and global warming more broadly. Whether it's rejoining Kyoto or finding other multilateral approaches, we have to address this global problem with global leadership. And global leadership is environmental leadership.

18c. What efforts would you support to address issues, such as acid rain and regional haze?

The most important step to combat acid rain and restore visibility is to enact comprehensive power plant legislation (see answer 7a). I will also carry out and strengthen new vehicle emission standards and limits on sulfur in fuel. Together with measures to improve energy efficiency, these measures will help restore the health of our lakes and forests and bring back the magnificent vistas that make America uniquely beautiful.


19. Food Safety/ Pesticides
In 1996, Congress enacted the Food Quality Protection Act to assure that America’s food supply is safe from dangerous pesticides.

19a. Do you support implementation of this law to assure that children and other vulnerable people are fully protected from dangerous pesticides contaminants?

Yes. Chemical contaminants have no place in our nation’s food supply, and FQPA’s new standard for regulating pesticides --- reasonable certainty of no harm --- imposes the proper level of protection. While I am mindful of the difficulty involved in implementing this new standard, I believe that the EPA can and should do more to meet the statutory deadlines for various regulatory actions mandated by this important legislation. As President, I will work with the EPA to ensure that every effort is made to implement the FQPA.

19b. Would you oppose efforts to delay the food safety requirements of this important law?

Yes I would. The American people are entitled to enjoy the full benefits of this important, seven-year-old legislation.

19c. Do you believe all pesticides that may remain on food products should be comprehensively tested for safety, and that, where data is not available, conservative assumptions should be applied to assure public health protection?

I support full implementation of the provisions of the FQPA regarding the review of the safety of pesticide residues on food (known as tolerance reassessments). I also support the review of the safety of existing pesticides and their uses according to the most up-to-date science as part of the ongoing EPA re-registration process. Environmental decisions such as these should always be made on the basis of the best available scientific information. When data are lacking, conservative assumptions should be used where supported as a generally accepted scientific practice.
I also believe in “right-to-know” laws. Food producers have the obligation to ensure that the produce provided to America’s consumers and their children is healthy and safe. When the produce industry fails to establish and adhere to internal standards for safety with regard to pesticides on its produce, laws and a mechanism to enforce them must exist to protect the health of the consumer.


20. Toxics, Right to Know, Preventing Toxic Exposures
In the last 50 years, chemical manufacturers have flooded society with tens of thousands of chemicals, but weak laws haven’t kept pace with industry production. Of 80,000 chemicals on the market, approximately 90% lack even basic publicly available information on potential health effects. Manufacturers are only required to report industrial pollution for fewer than 700 of these chemicals. There is no law providing disclosure of toxic chemicals contained in consumer products. And finally, the government’s ability to restrict or phase out known hazardous chemicals is extremely limited (resulting in a judicial repeal of EPA’s ban on asbestos).

20a. Do you believe that the public has a right to know about the full range of toxic chemicals in foods, drinking water and consumer products?

I believe that the public has both a right and a need to know about such chemicals, subject to the practical limitations on making such information available. We have learned over the years that many of the chemicals to which we are exposed on a daily basis can have harmful impacts on many Americans. It is imperative to our individual health and the nation’s health care system that information be available concerning exposure to chemicals in foods, drinking water, and consumer products.

20b. Would you support legislation to require manufacturers to disclose the potential health effects of chemicals to which they expose the public?

I would enthusiastically work with Congress in fashioning such legislation.

20c. Do you believe that chemicals with known links to serious health effects should be phased out where there are safer alternatives?

I believe we should reduce or eliminate exposure to chemicals with serious health effects when there are realistic alternatives that are shown to be safer.


21. Toxics
The Superfund program was steadily increasing the rate of site cleanup through the 1990’s - with over 85 sites completed each year in 1997 - 2000, with the rate now slowing to about 40 sites per year. Under Superfund’s “polluter-pays” liability system, polluters have directly paid for cleanups at more than 70% of Superfund sites. In addition, the liability structure has created strong incentives for pollution prevention and better waste management. However, the program of polluter-pays taxes that support the program expired in 1995, and Superfund cleanups are increasingly paid for with taxpayer funds. In fiscal year 2004, it is estimated that 79% of EPA's cleanups with be paid for by taxpayers. Critics of the program, however, assert that cleanups are unduly expensive because they too often involve treating wastes rather than simply trying to contain them, and that litigation has been excessive.

21a. Do you support reinstating the Superfund tax?

Yes. The Superfund tax preserves an important principle of environmental policy: namely, that polluters should pay to help clean up environmental hazards. As a result of the failure of Congress and the Administration to support reinstatement of the Superfund tax, the Superfund trust fund is now going bankrupt. This unfairly allocates the full cost of these cleanups to the U.S. taxpayer and removes an important enforcement tool that could be used to make responsible parties pay their full share of cleanup costs.

21b. What measures would you support to accelerate the pace of clean up at Superfund sites?

First, I will appoint an administrator to head the agency who would be committed to increasing the pace of clean up at Superfund sites across the country. The Clinton administration recognized the unacceptable length of time that it was taking many of these sites to be cleaned and made the cleaning up hazardous waste sites a national priority and challenged EPA regional administrators to work hard with states to get the job done. Second, I will seek to reinstate a Superfund tax so that the program’s trust fund would have sufficient resources to permit the federal government to step in to take action when responsible parties are unwilling or unable to act on their own. Third, I will request additional resources for the program based on a review of the number and kinds of sites that still need to be cleaned up, taking into account their size and complexity. Finally, I will expedite the speed of cleaning up these sites as part of my support for making Superfund sites both protective of the public health and more attractive to redevelopment as a way of attracting private investment.

22. Environmental Justice
Environmental problems -- from toxic pollution to loss of biodiversity -- affect all of us. Some communities, especially communities of color and poorer communities, are likely to suffer disproportionate impacts from environmental degradation. Evidence of environmental disparities includes: higher incidences of childhood lead poisoning among African-American children and among lower-income children; higher exposures by people of color to air pollution and higher penalties for violations of federal environmental laws levied in white communities compared to minority communities. Other areas where environmental disparities can exist include the siting of waste management facilities, access to clean drinking water and food, job-related exposures to toxic chemicals, access to well-maintained public parkland, and the availability of transportation options.

22a. What is your vision for insuring equal access to a clean and healthy environment?

Equal access to public goods is one of America's most deeply held values. No American should have to live or work in conditions that threaten their health. Environmental health hazards are too often borne by the most vulnerable among us -- the children, the elderly, and low-income communities. Critics often say that environmentalism is an issue that is only a concern for the well-to-do, but in fact just the opposite is true. The affluent are more likely to have the means to protect themselves from exposure to unsafe living conditions like lead, asbestos, hazardous waste, polluted air, and dirty water. The government must protect disadvantaged communities from these dangers.

22b. Would you support and strengthen compliance with Executive Order 12898, the President's Order on Environmental Justice (2/11/94), which mandates that each federal agency shall make achieving environmental justice part of its mission by identifying and addressing disproportionately high and adverse human health or environmental effects of its programs, policies, and activities on minority populations and low income populations?
Yes. The Federal government affects the environmental health of Americans in many ways, through its own activities, programs, and policies. With Executive Order 12898, President Clinton recognized that we have to look closely not only at the total amount of pollution, but also at where that pollution falls. No single racial or ethnic group should bear the burden of excess pollution. I will ensure that all federal agencies perform their activities in such a manner as to identify and eliminate the potential for any disproportionate impacts.

22c. Are there other ways you would address this issue?

I will tap the creative energy of all groups involved in environmental issues. Too often we fall into the trap of doing things the way they have always been done. The EPA's Office of Environmental Justice could be more effective in promoting environmental justice. My Administration will not be afraid to try new approaches, to work with diverse parties, to promote unique solutions and partnerships between industry and affected communities, and when necessary, to use its enforcement and compliance powers to ensure that my commitment to a clean and healthy environment for all Americans is achieved.



Environmental Process and Procedures
23. Budget/Environmental Funding
Federal spending for Natural Resources and the Environment budget category (Function 300) has declined substantially since 1980. Environmentalists believe that the management needs of national parks, wildlife refuges and other federal lands and clean water and clean air programs as well as programs that protect wildlife continue to increase.

23a. Would you support a reassessment of federal spending priorities and restoration of an equitable portion of the federal budget to natural resource and environmental programs and agencies?

Yes. These programs have been critical to the preservation and continued maintenance of the land and water resources that are so much a part of our American character and so vital to the public health. I fully support an appropriate allocation of each year’s federal budget to these programs. Also vitally important for these programs is a predictable and consistent level of funding on a multiyear basis. An important step toward this goal was taken in 2000 in the enactment of the Conservation Trust Fund, a commitment made that has not been fulfilled in recent years. I would support not only increased funding levels for these programs, but also a mechanism that would make consistent funding available each year.

23b. What are your top funding priorities for national parks? Do you support more funding for national parks?

Yes, I support more funding for our national parks. The national parks are a unique American treasure and provide an unparalleled opportunity for families to enjoy nature and engage in recreation. Our top priority should be to maintain the resource base essential to preserving each park’s special experience, including its plants, wildlife, and cultural artifacts. We should also pay more attention to maintaining and modernizing in suitable ways the facilities and transportation systems in each of our parks.

The Land and Water Conservation Fund (LWCF) was authorized by Congress at $900 million each year with revenue derived from Outer Continental Shelf oil and gas leasing and production. Congress has regularly failed to appropriate the authorized amount. The unappropriated balance in the LWCF account now exceeds $11 billion.

23c. Would you support full funding for the LWCF at $900 million each year and limiting its use to the purposes for which it was originally established?

Yes. This program provides vital funding to federal agencies as well as state and local entities so that they can protect open space and important natural resources.

In 2000 Congress established an historic Conservation Trust Fund intended to provide guaranteed funding for LWCF and other programs to protect wildlife, open space and marine and coastal areas. But Congress is now backing away from that commitment.
23d. Would you support efforts to fully fund and maintain the historic Conservation Trust Fund established in 2000?
Yes, I would support efforts to maintain and fully fund the Conservation Trust Fund or to adopt other methods that accomplish the same funding mission through the use of the budget process. The Conservation Trust Fund was a monumental achievement based on a bipartisan consensus. However, the Bush administration has allowed Congress to erode the program to the point that its future viability is now in doubt.


24. Takings/Property Rights
Zoning and various environmental protections at all levels of government protect property owners who may find themselves downwind or downstream from harmful activities. Recently, there have been efforts in the courts, the Congress and in state legislatures to expand the application of the Fifth Amendment’s so-called “takings clause” in the name of protecting property rights. These efforts have the effect of paying polluters not to pollute.

24a. Do you support legislation that would reject the case-specific approach the courts now follow, redefine “property” or otherwise expand the Constitution’s takings clause?

No. There is no need to fix what isn’t broken. The Constitution has served our country and our people well and doesn’t need to be tinkered with.

24b. Do you support legislation to allow private interests to challenge local land use decisions in federal court, bypassing local and state procedures?

No. Land use decisions are local decisions and the proper place for them to be challenged is in state and local venues.


25. Legislative Riders
In recent years, Congress has increasingly relied upon the insertion of unrelated anti-environmental provisions into budget bills, appropriations, and other legislation to bypass regular legislative procedures and avoid presidential vetoes. Environmental groups believe this procedure avoids public scrutiny and debate over new laws, which roll back environmental protection.

25a. Do you believe that changes in environmental laws should be subject to open debate and recorded votes in the Congress?

Yes. Free and open debate is an essential feature of democracy. Too often in recent years, legislative proposals to weaken environmental protection have been agreed to as appropriations riders literally in back rooms or under cover of night, without the public review that such changes deserve.

25b. Would you, as President, veto budget bills or other measures that include unrelated provisions weakening environmental programs?

I would seriously consider vetoing any budget bill containing unrelated provisions that weakened environmental protections.

26. Regulatory Reform
For the past 30 years, most environmental protections for public health have been set based on health-based or technology standards. Critics of many environmental laws and regulations claim that the regulatory process should place a much greater emphasis on the costs of compliance to business. They claim that the regulatory process does not adequately consider costs of compliance to business.
26a. Under what circumstances should human health standards be lowered set based on the cost of compliance to industries?
Different statutes mandate different criteria for determining environmental standards. Under parts of the Clean Air Act, for example, the cost of compliance is explicitly excluded from consideration, while other environmental laws allow costs to be considered when determining standards. While it makes sense for statutes to have their own particular criteria depending upon the nature of the problem being addressed, generally speaking, it is best to set standards based on the level needed to protect human health or on the availability of control technology, and to take costs into account in choosing the most efficient approach to the implementation of the standard. Even the Bush administration admits the health and social benefits of enforcing tough new clean air regulations during the past decade were five to seven times greater in economic terms than were the costs of complying with the rules.

26b. Would you support legislation or executive action to require more detailed assessments of costs and benefits than currently undertaken by federal agencies before new public health or environmental regulations are put in place?

An executive order already requires a detailed assessment of the costs and benefits of federal regulations, and a federal statute requires the Administration to report on the costs and benefits of federal regulations on an annual basis. No further assessments should be necessary.

26c. Would you support an adjustment that lowers the estimated benefit in saving someone’s life by his/her age or remaining life expectancy? Explain your views.

When estimating the benefits of saving human life, the government should not discriminate against older Americans based on their age. The value of the life of all adults should be treated the same and should not be lowered simply because one person has lived longer than another. To
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. Part II of Clark's answers on the environment
Part One is right above this post.

26c. Would you support an adjustment that lowers the estimated benefit in saving someone’s life by his/her age or remaining life expectancy? Explain your views.

When estimating the benefits of saving human life, the government should not discriminate against older Americans based on their age. The value of the life of all adults should be treated the same and should not be lowered simply because one person has lived longer than another. To do so is an insult to our senior citizens. Earlier this year, the Bush Administration proposed using a calculation that would reduce the value of the life of a senior citizen by 37%. As President, I would prevent the use of this or any similar calculation based on age.

26d. Would you support elevating EPA to a cabinet agency? Would you insist that any legislation to do so be free of additional provisions that weaken environmental protection or change the agency’s mission?

Yes, I would support the elevation of the EPA to a cabinet agency, but only if the legislation were free of extraneous provisions that weakened the agency’s ability to protect the environment. Unfortunately, for more than a decade, the EPA cabinet bill has been used as a vehicle for attempted changes to the agency’s authority and mission, sinking the legislation in a sea of controversy. However, even if legislation were not adopted to make EPA a cabinet agency under my administration, I would give the EPA the same status as any other cabinet department.


27. Environmental Oversight
Many observers believe that the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), the so-called Magna Carta of environmental law, is currently under an “attack of one thousand cuts.” This law provides two essential elements to government decision-making, including public participation and review of the impacts of a proposed decision. In proposal after proposal, concerning issues ranging from highway construction and logging in our national forests to oil drilling on federal lands and conservation of oceans and marine mammals, NEPA is at the center of efforts to weaken the protection of our environment and natural resources.

27a. What would you do to ensure that NEPA’s promise of meaningful public participation in government decisions is fulfilled?

NEPA has done more than any other law in the past 30 years to bring openness and transparency to federal decision-making. However, federal agencies’ reliance on environmental assessments (rather than the more open environmental impact statement) has been eroding this transparency, and the Bush Administration’s propensity for secrecy in government has accelerated this trend. I would direct CEQ to issue new guidance on the use of environmental assessments and ensure that the mitigation promises made by the government are kept. The federal government under my leadership would consult with communities before taking action that may affect them. Monitoring reports should be public documents.

27b. What would you do to ensure that information is collected about the actual impacts of federal decisions on natural and cultural resources and that federal agencies respond to this information?

Too often, federal agencies predict impacts and then put the analysis on the shelf. This process costs taxpayers too much and gives communities too little protection. I would direct CEQ to issue new guidance on monitoring, mitigation, and adaptive management.
The Department of Defense (DOD) has repeatedly sought exemptions to five environmental laws, including the Endangered Species Act, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the Clean Air Act, the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, and Superfund. DOD has a long-term plan to get even more exemptions from environmental laws. This is unacceptable. Government agencies including the DOD should have to follow the same environmental and public health laws as everyone else. Moreover, many of these laws already contain broad exemptions that DOD could invoke on a case-by-case basis. DOD is not using the exemptions currently available.

27c. Do you support or oppose giving the DOD exemptions to our environmental laws?

I support current environmental laws that provide case-by-case waiver or exemption procedures in the event of a genuine conflict between environmental and national security concerns. I oppose efforts to open broad new exemptions from environmental laws for DOD in the name of national security. In all my years of service, complying with the environmental laws never compromised the military readiness of troops under my command.


28. Judicial appointments
Federal courts, including the Supreme Court, have a major influence over the direction of environmental policy in our country. Federal judges are appointed for life and can shape policy for many years.

28a. Would you consider a judicial candidate’s environmental opinions and record in vetting their appointment to the federal bench?

Yes. I would consider judicial candidates’ entire records, including environmental opinions, in determining qualifications for the federal bench.


Economic policy and environmental protection

29a. Please describe what the relationship between strong environmental protection laws and strong economic performance would be under your administration. Do present environmental laws need to be modified (without necessarily reducing the present level of environmental protection) in order to achieve or maintain a strong economy?

A good life for the American people requires both a clean environment and a healthy economy. Each supports the other. Technology development that makes it economical to use solar energy or hybrid cars creates new industries and jobs while reducing the gases the cause global warming and air pollution. Rural economies that have been left behind by declining agricultural prices and mining efficiencies can develop new economic opportunities that come from living near exceptional landscapes. In my administration, we will adopt policies that encourage the development of technology and entrepreneurship to keep our environment and our economy healthy. We do not need to change our laws -- we need a change in the administration executing those laws.


Environmental Priorities
30a. At the end of your first term, what specific environmental accomplishments will you have achieved? LCV will re-print verbatim the first 300 words of your response.

America’s natural resources – our air and water, seacoasts, mountains, wetlands, forests, prairies and wilderness – are among the glories of this nation. They are a legacy passed down by those who have come before and one we are honor-bound to preserve for the generations ahead. Those who would sacrifice our natural gifts for short-term gain forsake this legacy, and at the same time, undermine America’s long-term economic strength. The choice between a strong economy and a clean environment is a false one.

In truth, environmental protection is a character issue. Just as I took care of the soldiers and their families while serving in the U.S. Army, I feel it is my obligation to protect the health of our citizens and take care of the resources our children will inherit. George Bush’s environmental record is a showcase of his Administration’s duplicity. He has betrayed the public trust and is mortgaging our children’s future. Contrary to their rhetoric, the President and his staff of special-interest lobbyists, not their opponents, are the true environmental radicals. Conservation of land and resources is truly a conservative value.

As President, I will immediately halt the Bush Administration’s unprecedented assault on the environment. I will launch programs to safeguard the health of our children and families by cleaning our air, water, and soils, protecting our public lands, restoring U.S. leadership on global environmental issues, and building a new, broad-based coalition for environmental protection. This is an issue that should bring us together on the strength of our shared values.

Specifically, as President, I want to work with the American people to:
• reverse failed Bush administration policies on clean air, water quality, forests, wilderness and more;
• advance comprehensive "four pollutant" legislation to keep our air clean, including binding limits on emissions of carbon dioxide;
• strengthen automotive fuel efficiency standards, in consultation with scientists, environmental groups, industry and others;
• protect our nation's wetlands by enforcing a "no net loss" policy, and restore budgets for sewage plants and stormwater controls;
• codify and enforce the “Roadless Rule," which bans new road building on millions of acres of national forest;
• promote environmentally-friendly technologies with tax incentives and federal procurement;
• re-enter the international negotiations to address global warming; and
• increase funding for fighting deforestation and protecting biodiversity around the world;
These steps are just a start. To ensure a healthy environment for future generations, we must take responsible action today.


30b.What priority issues will your administration focus on in its first six months, first year?

First, I will reverse failed Bush Administration policies on clean air, water quality, forests, wilderness, and more. Second, I will enforce the environmental laws of this land -- from day one. Third, I will develop and begin to implement a plan for energy security that includes policies to enhance the energy efficiency of our cars, power plants, equipment, and appliances, and to promote the use of renewable energy. Fourth, I will begin to re-establish America's global leadership on environmental issues, and will start by re-engaging in the international negotiations on climate change.

30c.What environmental accomplishments, initiatives or actions are you most proud of?

As a commander in various units throughout my career in the US Army, I was proud always to pass EPA inspections. I worked hard with troops under my command to meet high standards of environmental excellence. During my time as Commanding General of the National Training Center in Southern California, we successfully met the challenge of preserving habitat for threatened desert tortoises while maintaining military readiness. We addressed such issues as waste oil from Army vehicles with professionalism, commitment -- and results. I am proud of the U.S. Army units I commanded. They were good stewards of the land and natural resources. In an era when environmental threats such as the loss of our protective ozone layer threaten our collective survival, military security and environmental security must each be considered an integral part of our national security.

Ensuring the long-term health and sustainability of our environment is central to my campaign. To achieve this vision, we must develop technologies that allow us to decrease emissions and reduce global warming pollution. I believe that America’s great technological prowess holds the key for meeting the environmental and energy challenges of the future and will help us recover many of the good American jobs that we have exported abroad during this Administration. I was proud to serve as chairman of the board of WaveCrest laboratories -- a company that is developing innovative new technologies that can help protect the environment and enhance our energy security.

30d. Do you plan to campaign on environmental issues? What level of visibility and exposure will you give to environmental issues in your campaign? Explain your views.

Yes. Respect for the environment will be a cornerstone of my campaign. For example, my first major speech on the economy included a significant discussion of the importance of protecting our environment. It is impossible to address economic growth without discussing environmental protection. In my campaign, I will expose the false dichotomy of jobs versus the environment and explain how a healthy environment is in fact necessary for a healthy economy.
This Administration has betrayed the public trust. George Bush attacks “radical environmentalists” while claiming to be a “conservative,” but in fact, he and his appointees have engaged in the most radical, wasteful, and destructive environmental agenda in the history of our nation. From Bush’s first day in office, he has attacked the environmental and conservation protections authored by Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, and even his own father. According to the non-partisan League of Conversation Voters, “George W. Bush has compiled the worst environmental record in the history of our nation.” He has eliminated protections that keep our air and water safe, left taxpayers with the tab for toxic waste cleanups, and walked away from efforts to ensure our nation’s environmental security. Conservation is conservative: Conserving what is left of our nation’s natural heritage is the truly conservative thing to do.

We must preserve for future generations the historic legacy of this country and its incredible landscape and resources. Our well-being, and the well-being of our grandchildren, depend upon our ability to meet the extraordinary environmental challenges of this century. I will continue to fight ceaselessly and passionately for these issues throughout my campaign.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
47. What DU poll are you talking about?
There are sooo many :) I know I did one based on DU Group support, but it wasn't for 2008, it was for "if the primaries were held today who would you support".

And why is this thread getting nominated for Greatest Page? Geesh.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Are you a "Clarkie?"
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. No, I'm an Edwardsie :)
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. Really? I thought you folks called yourselves
"Edwardians"

:hi:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Yes...you did start that last poll, didn't you?
Didn't you realize that a poll with Wes Clark's name on it, brings unintented consequences? Guess not.

I Don't remember ever doing a Presidential poll. And if I did, it would have been quite some time ago....like last years' primaries.

It really isn't Clark supporters that start these polls. But when Clark wins, others will always slam Clark supporters for voting in them. Guess one might call that voter intimidation. Giving the man "just due" might hurt the image of another.... I suppose.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy. n/t
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. My poll didn't mention 2008....
so that means he's popular "today" not in 2008, because that's 3 years away.

I think it was the thread subject line that confused me :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. This one that's been on DU a couple of days...
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
62. If that's true and DU starts being a campaign site for Clark
I'm outta here. It's DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, NOT Kerry Underground, or Clark Underground...go to/start THEIR websites and pontificate about them there.

This is a website for DEMOCRATS. ALL Democrats. Howard Dean is the DNC chair. He's the person to support here.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. No, stick around-don't be intimidated by anyone or any group.
Stay here. Speak your mind.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. It isn't.
On the 1st page of GD Politics right now, there are threads with Kerry, Edwards, Dean, Clinton, anc Boxer in the titles, as well as Clark.

This is indeed a website for all Democrats, and I support the DNC and Dean, and I'll support our eventual nominee in 2008 just as most of us got onboard in support of Kerry as our nominee.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. DU is not a campaign site for Clark or anybody else
There is some kind of mass hysteria going on with all these polls, which are not, by the way, started by Clark supporters, as far as I can see. I do support Howard Dean as chair, but he is in no way the only Democrat to be supported here. That's just silly. I'll pontificate about whatever I damn well please, as I am sure you will, too.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
74. No..DU doesn't Endorse Anyone...It was a poll posted...straw vote for '08
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:24 PM by KoKo01
Candidates. A "straw poll" but the numbers were very interesting as to who was the most popular at this time. It was just a post asking if the Primary for 08 was held today who would you vote for:

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1720439
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. I prefer the threads that mention each man in connection to some news
Clark and Kerry worked together today to get some legislation passed for military families. That would have been an excellent reason to have a thread.

There was a poster a while back who was tombstoned. He specialized in cheerleading and the hard sell. I hated even seeing his name and cringed every time. Odd reaction, some might say, considering he was a KERRY SUPPORTER for Pete's sake.

I don't care who's doing it, but this kind of promotion of ANY candidate is really a turn off.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
102. lol
So, no supporting other Democrats except Dean?

I supported Dean for Chair, and I'll support anyone else I damn please.

This is, as you say, the Democratic Underground, not the DNC Underground, or My Personal Underground or Only Certain Democrats Underground.

Believe me, supporting Clark or Kerry around here is like having a great big target as your avatar, if you DARE to post something positive about either one.

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Supporting Dean as the titular head of the Party.
Not as an individual, but as chair.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #104
129. Well, this never used to be "Terry McAuliffe" Underground.
No reason why it should be "Dean" Underground now. I think most people are comfortable with it being "Support Whichever Democrats you Want to" Underground.

There's room here for supporters of all Democrats (though I've noticed that Lieberman supporters rarely last long here). If there's somebody that I don't care for, I generally avoid threads dealing with them.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
79. Ya think Rove would not demonize Wes Clark? Nah...he's changed...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 08:28 PM by zulchzulu
Sucker! :crazy:

If you think the Repugs would not demonize Wes Clark the same way they do to others that served their country and DARE run against them, you have a lot to learn.

It's way to early to be thinking Clark is a shoo-in for 2008. Consider his heavy grassroots support and his actual performance in 2004.

I like Wes...have met him...shaken his hand...might even have him in a film I'm doing when he was in Madison a couple times...but...

Running for president against the Repug Lie Machine is a daunting task. After seeing this past year's events unfold, I almost would not want to wish it on anyone I like as a person.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
84. Nobody is "acceptable to everyone"
and yes, the GOP Attack Machine will go after ANY Democrat, drumming up as many distortions as possible and spending millions to play them up for all they're worth. No question about that.

I do think this particular General in the WH can lay to rest a lot of stereotypes and divisions in our country, from rightwing lies about liberals to divisions leftover from Vietnam.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
87. Until Kerry got the nomination CLARK was my avatar
I respect the man, and would follow him to hell and back.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
97. o4godsake
it's too early to even go here. I can't barely DU
the stupid "who do you think will be the candidate" in
2008 polls in here.

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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
100. It would be interesting to see results from straw polls on other sites
like Smirking Chimp and Democrats.com, if they have polls. Does anybody know?
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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. Yes.
We freep those, too, so Clark always wins. And the ones on kos and MyDD. And all of the online polls at the news networks: msnbc, cnn, abc. (We don't seem to be able to make a dent at Fox, for some reason.)

There are thousands of us. Our long term goal is to change the language so that people will start saying "Clarked" instead of freeped. As in "Boy, that poll Wolf was running last night really got clarked big time."

It will take a little while, but we have time. Prepare to be assimilated...

(Oh, wait. Just in case this is being recorded: :sarcasm:
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge... ;-) )

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nickgutierrez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
101. To be perfectly honest, I'd like to see Clark win an elected office...
...before he becomes a top-flight candidate in my mind. I've got no real problem with the guy, but before I consider him a presidential candidate, I'd like to see how he goes about putting his ideas into action from a legislative point of view.

A run for governor would be, in my opinion, an excellent idea, and a good way of knowing just how well he plays in a so-called "red state".
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. I positively prefer a non-pol at this point...
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 12:51 AM by FrenchieCat
seeing the track record of politicians, I am not greatly impressed (at all). The hand wringing, double speak, finger in the wind testing, and the made but unkept promises just don't strike me as a "Must have done" to be a great president....or to even win an election.

Presidents do not legislate....I know you know that though.

Seeing Clark's track record (Rwanda, Kosovo, Affirmative action, and speaking and testifying against the Iraq War and speaking out against Bush about 9/11) of standing when plenty of those pols you prefer where sitting on their hands....is more what I look for in a leader.

But then, I'm not looking for just another politician to become President. I guess that I like to think out of the box so many others have crowded themselves into. But then, that's just me.....and a few others.

Hopefully your preference was never intended. That may be why the pre-requiste for running for President is solely age and citizenship. If they would have added...'and must have held a lesser office first", you'd have an undeniable point.

But to each his own. Some of us try to play it safe, and oftentime lose, while others allow what they know about an individual to help them judge if that person is up to the job at hand. Lithmus test have not helped us much in the past...and I doubt that they will be of greater help in the future.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. Did you read that UN panel link saying they wouldn't INVESTIGATE
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 05:15 AM by JohnOneillsMemory
war crimes charges against NATO in 1999?

Thanks for the link, FrenchieCat. It's like reading the 9/11 Omission Panel again. There was no exoneration of NATO. The UN preview committee looked at a tiny number of events and then they gave up and caved in to a white wash based on lies as I detail below.

Here are key excerpts plus some comments from me, of course.

http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm

1)They didn't even investigate the charges beyond some submitted public documents. They decided not to concluding "either the law is not sufficiently clear or investigations are unlikely to result in the acquisition of sufficient evidence..."

2)It said NATO wasn't forthcoming when asked about specific events.

3)The only NATO info it looked at were NATO press conferences.

4)The panel conveniently "assumed the NATO and NATO countries’ press statements are generally reliable and that explanations have been honestly given."

5)See in sections 58-62 General Clark's tortured explanation of how a NATO fighter accidentally hit a passenger train on a bridge twice. The panel accepts the first bomb as a mistake but not the second one. So they leave it alone, of course.

6)The five specific incidents chosen for scrutiny in sections 57-89 out of many more cited by Human Rights Watch are all characterized as having contradictory evidence so the panel decides not to investigate, of course.

7)Cluster bombs and depleted uranium are found to be used by NATO but treaties against using them aren't in place. No indictable crime, of course.

(The war in the Balkans was admittedly a torrent of propaganda on both sides. But this report states that NATO was uncooperative and vague which affected the ability to pursue the facts. What a surprise.)

(I have two links to NATO lies that illustrate NATO's manipulating the UN and public. I think this illustrates my repeated claim that you can't trust military leaders who utilize psy-ops and violence as career tools.)

(First, the Chinese Embassy was bombed intentionally as a military target due to its both relaying radio for Milosevic and monitoring US cruise missiles to develop counter-measures according to NATO officials who leaked to the UK's Guardian paper. This wasn't NATO's story though. Truth, the first casualty of war, right?)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,203214,00.html
Nato Bombed Chinese Deliberately

>snip<

The story is confirmed in detail by three other Nato officers - a flight controller operating in Naples, an intelligence officer monitoring Yugoslav radio traffic from Macedonia and a senior headquarters officer in Brussels. They all confirm that they knew in April that the Chinese embassy was acting as a 'rebro' station for the Yugoslav army (VJ) after alliance jets had successfully silenced Milosevic's own transmitters.

The Chinese were also suspected of monitoring the cruise missile attacks on Belgrade, with a view to developing effective counter-measures against US missiles.

>snip<



http://www.apc.org.nz/pma/sshea.htm
'Selling a Conflict-the Ultimate PR Challenge'

>snip<

BERN, Switzerland. Jamie Shea, NATO spokesman during the Kosovo war, recently gave a talk to business leaders, titled: 'Selling a Conflict - the Ultimate PR Challenge'. With unusual bluntness, Shea talked about the 78 days of his media success.

One has to win the public opinion, said Shea, and this isn't a simple task while violating the sovereignity of a state. The 'collateral damages' endangered the public opinion in favor of NATO, but the pictures of refugees on all TV channels restored the public opinion, according to Shea.

War as a Soap Opera

Shea said that the public loves daily soap operas with good characters, and that's what he gave to the public. How well he did this job, is shown by the fact that people still recognize him today wherever he goes. The media star Shea also boasted that he was recently nominated as one of the "10 sexiest men in the world" by a magazine.

The media had Jamie Shea, NATO had the media. On the other side was Milosevic, with no media briefings and ever-changing spokespersons - giving a bad image in the media.

>snip<

(Now here's the UN report deciding not to investigate NATO, absolutely not exonerating NATO.-jom)

http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm
(Final Report to the Prosecutor by the Committee Established to Review the NATO Bombing Campaign Against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia)

>snip<

4. On 14 May 99 the then Prosecutor established a committee to assess the allegations and material accompanying them, and advise the Prosecutor and Deputy Prosecutor whether or not there is a sufficient basis to proceed with an investigation into some or all the allegations or into other incidents related to the NATO bombing.
# In the course of its work, the committee has not addressed in detail the issue of the fundamental legality of the use of force by NATO members against the FRY as, if such activity was unlawful, it could constitute a crime against peace and the ICTY has no jurisdiction over this offence.

>snip<

13. It has not been possible for the committee to look at the NATO bombing campaign on a bomb by bomb basis and that was not its task.
(Note: I believe NATO flew around 10,000 sorties to bomb.-jom)
The committee has, however, reviewed public information concerning several incidents, including all the more well known incidents, with considerable care. It has also endeavored to examine, and has posed questions to NATO, concerning all other incidents in which it appears three or more civilians were killed.

>snip<

26. There is evidence of use of depleted uranium (DU) projectiles by NATO aircraft during the bombing campaign. There is no specific treaty ban on the use of DU projectiles. There is a developing scientific debate and concern expressed regarding the impact of the use of such projectiles and it is possible that, in future, there will be a consensus view in international legal circles that use of such projectiles violate general principles of the law applicable to use of weapons in armed conflict.

>snip<

27. Cluster bombs were used by NATO forces during the bombing campaign. There is no specific treaty provision which prohibits or restricts the use of cluster bombs although, of course, cluster bombs must be used in compliance with the general principles applicable to the use of all weapons. Human Rights Watch has condemned the use of cluster bombs alleging that the high "dud" or failure rate of the submunitions (bomblets) contained inside cluster bombs converts these submunitions into antipersonnel landmines which, it asserts, are now prohibited under customary international law.

>snip<

47. The precise scope of "military-industrial infrastructure, media and other strategic targets" as referred to in the US statement and "government ministries and refineries" as referred to in the NATO statement is unclear. Whether the media constitutes a legitimate target group is a debatable issue.

>snip<

74. In a statement of 8 April 1999, NATO also indicated that the TV studios would be targeted unless they broadcast 6 hours per day of Western media reports: "If President Milosevic would provide equal time for Western news broadcasts in its programmes without censorship 3 hours a day between noon and 1800 and 3 hours a day between 1800 and midnight, then his TV could be an acceptable instrument of public information."

>snip<

(para. 81-84 are about the US/NATO claim to "accidentally bomb the Chinese embassy" with an elaborate cover story of lies by Under Secretary of Defense Thomas Pickering lying about CIA getting fired for the error and millions in damages paid out to the Chinese. The Guardian newspaper revealed that NATO officials confessed in 10/99 the Chinese had been monitoring the radio signature of American cruise missile to develop counter-measures against them so NATO killed them.-jom)


>snip<

85. It is the opinion of the committee that the aircrew involved in the (Chinese embassy) attack should not be assigned any responsibility for the fact they were given the wrong target and that it is inappropriate to attempt to assign criminal responsibility for the incident to senior leaders because they were provided with wrong information by officials of another agency. Based on the information available to it, the committee is of the opinion that the OTP should not undertake an investigation concerning the bombing of the Chinese Embassy.

>snip<

90. (The committee) has tended to assume that the NATO and NATO countries’ press statements are generally reliable and that explanations have been honestly given. The committee must note, however, that when the OTP requested NATO to answer specific questions about specific incidents, the NATO reply was couched in general terms and failed to address the specific incidents. The committee has not spoken to those involved in directing or carrying out the bombing campaign.

>snip<

NATO has admitted that mistakes did occur during the bombing campaign; errors of judgment may also have occurred. Selection of certain objectives for attack may be subject to legal debate. On the basis of the information reviewed, however, the committee is of the opinion that neither an in-depth investigation related to the bombing campaign as a whole nor investigations related to specific incidents are justified. In all cases, either the law is not sufficiently clear or investigations are unlikely to result in the acquisition of sufficient evidence to substantiate charges against high level accused or against lower accused for particularly heinous offences.

91. On the basis of information available, the committee recommends that no investigation be commenced by the OTP in relation to the NATO bombing campaign or incidents occurring during the campaign.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #109
115. John, why won't you talk WITH us and not just AT us?
That is the main reason, in my opinion, why some are tempted to call you a cut and paste drive by attack artist. It seems that almost any time someone takes the trouble to give you substantial feedback to the "points" you are making, the nature of your arguments, and more important, the ultimate meaning of your arguments in the context of the steps activists can be taking to make a positive difference, you then move on leaving a further trail of unanswered questions behind you. I will try again (and remind you that I have kept trying to get you to engage me in a dialog, to my continuing frustration).

OK John, let's look at this statement: "On the basis of information available, the committee recommends that no investigation be commenced by the OTP in relation to the NATO bombing campaign or incidents occurring during the campaign".

Now you made a big deal on earlier threads of accusing Clark of being a war criminal, and it was then pointed out to you that this inquiry had taken place. You do realize what this is saying don't you? Insufficient cause to warrant any further investigation. Think of it this way John. We use Grand Juries in this country. They conduct preliminary investigations to determine whether there is sufficient reason to believe that a person may have committed a crime. Grand Juries are used to screen out wild charges and witch hunts among other things. When they find some fire along with the smoke, than the indict AND THEN it goes to trial, where the defendant IS STILL INNOCENT until proved guilty. When they don't they close up shop and say there is no good purpose served through further investigations.

John, they failed to even indict, but you seem to operate by a different standard; Guilty unless proven Innocent, and then you appoint yourself as Judge. You are implying some cover-up I suppose, yet another layer in your global conspiracy with Wesley Clark at the center. John, Pope John Paul!! supported the war in Kosovo for God's sake (pun intended) and we all know how big a militarist HE is. So yes, as you seem to be troubled by, there was no Ken Starr type, never ending, leave no rock unturned and "Oh look, here's a new truck load of rocks we can dump on you" punitive and exhaustive "investigation" but there was this: "The committee has, however, reviewed public information concerning several incidents, including all the more well known incidents, with considerable care. It has also endeavored to examine, and has posed questions to NATO, concerning all other incidents in which it appears three or more civilians were killed." They looked, and they dropped it. Unsuitable for trial, but now you seem to imply that since there WAS NO trial, that Clark must be guilty. That's totalitarian logic, not democratic logic.

What are you saying John, that the United States should pull out of N.A.T.O.? That the Democratic Party should take the lead in blasting N.A.T.O. and that you are looking for Democrats who will? Are you saying that there wasn't ethnic cleansing and elements of genocide being waged against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, John, is that your point?
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x_y_no Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
118. That would essentially rule out his ever running
because by 2016 he'll be too old.

And I really don't understand the point of it anyway - as NATO commander he was the equivalent of a head of state - certainly that experience is superior to having been a governor or senator.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #118
132. "That would essentially rule out his ever running....."
So what? Many people can't run because they get too old. Many great democrats will never be president of the USA. Greater men than Clark will ever hope to be go to their graves and never get to be president.

He should run for governor of Arkansas or stay in the private sector. That's my opinion. NATO commander is not like being head of state. It is a military command position. Unless there is a state where people are all in the military and must take orders, Clark's experience with NATO is useless and not even close to being the equivalent to being Governor, much less superior.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
113. because NO One can impune Wes Clark the way they did John Kerry
Never underestimate how low the not-so-swiftboat vets can stoop or what lies they can concoct!
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
117. Some of us ignore Wes Clark
I don't plan on voting for Wes if he's the Dem Prez nominee. I'll vote Green before I vote for clark.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #117
123. In fact, DU makes it easy
to even ignore Clark threads altogether, just a click away. Then you won't have to repeat how you "ignore" Wes Clark. It would make life easier for you.
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #123
133. Maybe you can petition and make that a rule
When no one is allowed to say anything negative about Clark it will make life easier for you. On the other hand you could put people who don't like the General on ignore. That would be easier too, would it not?
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. Damn this Ches cold - A-choo!!


I thought maybe the poster wasn't aware that fuction had been restored. Just being helpful. You know, a suggestion? Like yours that Gen. Clark should run for governor of Arkansas? Now where have I heard that one before?

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #133
136. Molly most people react when someone they care about is attacked
And they react strongest when they think the attack is unfair and uncalled for. And I think a good case can be made that this is an appropriate reaction. We Democrats have lost a lot of elections to Republicans because we have been too slow to defend a Democrat under attack. Some feel that Kerry lost in part because his campaign manager underestimated the threat posed by "Swift Boat Vets for Truth (ugh)", for example.

All Democrats never agree on everything nor on anyone, but I will grant you that since Howard Dean, to pick an obvious example, currently holds a position where he is fighting for the interests of all Democrats, all Democrats should at least consider being willing and able to defend Howard Dean from unfair attacks. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, it is a good thing, though of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions and supporting Dean will never be inserted into a Democratic pledge of allegiance. Still, I do support Dean and I do defend him when I think it is called for, maybe not as often as some others around here, but I do. Clearly Clark, like Kerry and Kucinich and Edwards and Feingold and Boxer etc is not currently officially representing our whole Party, but that does not mean that Democrats who feel positively about one or more of those people should be still when they are attacked. To the contrary.

If I had to come up with a sweeping general guideline for political debate between Democrats, I might be tempted to say that it is more important to publicly defend a Democrat that you feel is being unjustly attacked than it is to attack one yourself, unless that Democrat is engaged in a specific action that needs to be opposed for principled reasons. Well, I don't really need to come up with a guideline, I don't believe it is needed or helpful, but I was making a point. It SHOULD be easier to refrain from going out of one's way to attack another Democrat, than it is to rise in defense of that Democrat if one feels s/he is unfairly attacked. You clearly aren't one, but there ARE Freepers who come to DU and elsewhere posing here as Democrats or progressives or whatever simply to tear down Democrats and cause fights among us.

For these reasons I do lean toward thinking it best to generally stay away from threads and posts that praise a specific Democrat I disagree with unless I have a very specific point to make other than just spreading negativity. This is just my opinion. But if I kept going onto threads about some other Democrats to pan them, or kept introducing negative comments about them on whatever thread I found those Democrats mentioned on, I would expect to be challenged about it, and to tell you the truth, I would not blame anyone for challenging me. Like I said, more Democrats need to be willing to step up and defend other Democrats against attacks. If the facts go against us, well then so be it, but no more playing possum. That is a rod map to defeat.
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MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
142. Locking at OP's request.
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