The Chasm Between "Us" and "Them"

[kentuck]

Is there anything we agree upon? We tend to believe in the ideals of world peace and a United Nations. They tend to discredit the UN and believe that power makes right.

We tend to believe in the equal rights of women in a constitutional sense. We tend to separate the religious context from the constitutional context. They tend to discard the right of women to choose in an equal way with men and put the issue into nothing but a religious context.

We tend to believe in the idea of public education. They tend to discredit the idea in favor of vouchers and private education. They believe NEA is nothing but a political wing of the Democratic Party.

We tend to believe in the teachings of Jesus as spoken at the Sermon on the Mount. We believe we should help those in need. They tend to believe more in the idea of "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps" and would do away with just about every social program if there was no benefit for the wealthy. They would do away with Social Security. They would do away with food stamps.

We tend to believe in the idea of free speech. Ideally, we would prefer that ideas be put forth on an equal footing. Every person would have a right to speak and every person would have a right to disagree or rebut their argument and let the arguments stand on their own merits. They tend to believe in control of the message, "fake" town hall meeting, media propagandists, and manipulation.

We tend to believe that all citizens should have access to healthcare. They tend to believe the market will take care of such problems, even as the uninsured have grown to 45 million people. And so forth and so forth....

The gulf between "us" and "them" has grown so wide that it seems it is now impossible to bridge the gap. Where does it go from here? Where does it all end?

[ewagner]

1. Good questions

What seems to be happening is that both sides have become so firmly entrenched in their beliefs that there is no room for tolerance of the other side. Compromise? Forget it. You're either with us/them or against us/them.

I've come to believe that we will never resolve the issues between the left and the right (I use those terms with reluctance but there is very little choice in describing the two sides.) and the best we can hope for is TOLERANCE of each others views.

If that cannot be accomplished, where will it all end? I'm afraid in exodus or violence, or some combination of both.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

45. I often worry about that too...

but I think if we can get the hate radio folks to cool it (by confronting them head on, as is happening now with both AAR and the Dem politicians) even slightly and present a more rational, fact-based set of arguments, the vast majority of the people can be persuaded to think more globally and benevolently -- which in itself might prove sufficient to lift ourselves to a state of thoughtful political discourse resulting in more sensible legislation and a more civil country.

But the confrontation with the hatemongers has to be vociferous and possibly ugly, methinks :-( simply because people used to having power, however wrongfully garnered, do not give it up without an ugly fight...

[Demit]

2. I would say it begins with trying to stop the Us and Them stuff.

Then perhaps we would have hope for how it all ends.

[kentuck]

4. But is that denying reality ?

Where do we agree with them? Where do they agree with us?

[Demit]

6. Your mistake, I think, is insisting that the They are monolithic.

Your neighbor does not disagree with you on every single thing, nor do your friends agree with you on everything right down the line.

It is an age-old fault of human nature to need an Other. That is what the rightwingers & fanatics are doing, making liberals/progressives the Other.

Humans all share certain needs and hopes and desires. Identify the goals that humans have, concentrate on the what and not the how, and the differences will start to blur. Look for what you have in common with your neighbor, and there will be less sureness about who is Them and who is Us.

[kentuck]

7. That's what I'm asking for ?

I agree with your points but where and what do we agree on? Give me a list... I see a wide chasm.

[Demit]

23. Give you a list? Do it for you? Why don't you start instead?

Is it so hard for you, that you can't think of one place to start?

[Toots]

9. I think our biggest weapon will be, and it is surprising, the deficit.

Overspending, coming from those "tax and spend" Liberals sounds like a joke. Well things change America. Liberals want what is good for America and most particularly it's people. I think we will be able to come together with them on reining in our out of control spending habits. That will be a first step. After that we will rejoin the battle as to how best to spend our treasury without deficit or debt. I think we may be able to come to a consensus on world wide diplomacy as well. Even the right doesn't like the way the majority of the world feels about America. Their idea of Diplomacy is actually coercion and we may be able to get them to see that. :shrug:

[kentuck]

12. Good points , Toots..

I agree.

[randr]

3. A basic division between

those who fear death and think the world is going to hell and those who marvel at the mystery and think we can create heaven on earth.

[BillZBubb]

5. It all ends when the right wing house of cards economy collapses.

Until then we'll stay bitterly divided. Our side will be the minority.

But when the inevitable, painful, economic reality comes, our side will emerge with a sizable majority again.

Somehow in spite of all experience and evidence, most people in this country still believe the lie that the Repugs are better for the economy. Until that myth is smashed, we have an uphill fight.

[kentuck]

8. I fear you may be correct...

I do not see compromise in the cards, otherwise.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Bullshit.

TOTAL straw man. Define "us" and "them."

I know lots of people on the other side, and not a one of them believes in "fake town hall meetings, propaganda, and manipulation." Karl Rove, George W. Bush**, Dick Cheney**, and the rest of the Radical RW corporatists who are running this puppet government DO, but they're NOT the rank and file.

So it is EXTREMELY irresponsible to promote the divisive idea that "the gulf has grown so wide between us and them that it seems impossible to bridge the gap" without first defining "us" and "them."

NGU.

[kentuck]

14. And they continue to vote for what you say they do not believe in...

doesn't compute...

[ClassWarrior]

15. You still didn't answer my question.

To which "they" are you referring in your original post?

NGU.

[kentuck]

16. I picked only a few issues where the disagreements are...

but there are many more. I'm looking for anywhere that we can find common ground. Anymore, I see less and less possibility for any compromise. Perhaps you can give us a few issues where "we" and "they" agree ? The "they" I am referring to in my post are those that believe 100% differently from everything "we" stand for as Democrats. Do we surrender" Or do we fight? Which issues would you prefer to compromise?

[ClassWarrior]

18. You still didn't answer my question.

"Those that believe 100% differently" than us?? <LOL> Who's that? What defines them as a group? Does such a group even exist?

NGU.

[kentuck]

19. I think I answered your question....

But you choose to ignore it. Where are we alike? Where do we agree? I ask you again? Where is your strawman?

[ClassWarrior]

21. Okay, if you won't give me your definition, I'll give you mine.

"They" are a relative handful of criminal corporatists and neocons trying to manipulate the nation for their own selfish, pathological gain.

"We" are the American people - a diverse group of, for the most part, decent folks who are at times helpless against the vast resources of manipulation "they" use against "us" daily.

Now THAT computes.

NGU.

[kentuck]

22. So you are saying those that are manipulated are not part of "them"?

Because many have been conned and manipulated, does not make them any different from "us". It is really only a small handful that have control of the "majority" that vote? It is their "vast resources" that has made it possible for them to gain and retain control? Most of "us" are decent folks? We cannot help if we fall prey to "manipulation". It is not "our" fault. We only vote with "our" Party because those "liberals" are evil, sinful, "big-spenders" that let "terrorists" attack our country. You just don't wish to accept that fact about the "Democrat" Party. <sarcasm off>

[ClassWarrior]

24. Hey, I told you my definition - when are you going to tell me yours??

Or would you rather just ridicule the ideas of others?

That's mighty unProgressive, in my opinion.

NGU.

[kentuck]

25. I haven't seen your definition?

Sorry.

[ClassWarrior]

26. You mean you commented on post #21 without even reading it??

<LOL>

And you're STILLLLL avoiding my question.

NGU.

[kentuck]

27. I gave several examples in my post ; you gave nothing.

And I did respond to post 21. Where are your examples that we "agree" on anything? I will ask again. Do we all love our children? Read my post again and see all the examples where I said we cannot agree. That is the "we" vs "they". That is my "definition". Now, where is yours? Other than we are all "decent" people. Prove it.

[ClassWarrior]

28. What examples?

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

29. Are you saying that they are?

NGU.

[kentuck]

30. It doesn't matter...

The consequences are the same. Ignorance is no excuse, in my opinion.

[ClassWarrior]

31. And if they are, why do they need to be manipulated?

NGU.

[kentuck]

32. Because they want to be...

?? But it's not just Republicans.

[ClassWarrior]

33. And you're saying ignorance can't be overcome??

Don't Progressives believe in education? Isn't education by definition overcoming ignorance?

NGU.

[kentuck]

34. But that's my point !

Republicans are against "education" - not just the NEA. There is a "chasm" on the education issue. And I'm looking for an issue where we can agree. That is what I was asking from you. Give examples where we can agree?

[ClassWarrior]

35. But that's my question. Who do you mean by Republicons?

Are you saying that the opposition is monolithic? You didn't answer that poster's question either.

NGU.

[kentuck]

36. They only vote "monolithically"...

Does that mean they are a monolith? By your works, you shall be known. We can rationalize it and say it is because they are "manipulated". That doesn't change the fact that there is presently a "chasm" between "us" and "them".

[ClassWarrior]

37. Is there a chasm?

Or are people diverse, unique, alike in many ways and different in many others, and for the most part good?

That's pretty much the Progressive worldview. Is it yours?

NGU.

[kentuck]

38. How they vote is how they think...

How they think differently than you on just about everything or anything you can mention is what creates the "chasm". We are living in a different time with different political realities. I would love to think that there were moderate Repubs that we could sit down and talk with and compromise on the important issues of our time : education, Social Security, abortion rights for women, lawyers, environment, labor laws, minimum wage, etc....

[ClassWarrior]

39. Have you ever sat down and talked with a self-defined "Republican?"

And if "they only vote monolithically," haven't you answered your own question - that we're ALL different??

NGU.

[kentuck]

40. I have tried...

and realized it is futile - at least with the Repubs that I know. And I live in Colorado so I know a lot of them. :)

[ClassWarrior]

41. So are you saying the Progressive cause is hopeless?

NGU.

[kentuck]

42. No. I'm saying we are in a friggin' war...

There is no compromise with these assholes.

[ClassWarrior]

43. I agree (note handle) but that brings me back to my original question...

Which assholes?? If you're talking Joe and Mary next door, aren't you just playing into the hands of the REAL enemy, the corporatists and neocons, by willingly going along with the division? Aren't Joe and Mary really potential allies in the war?? Is every mom-and-pop "conservative" a hopeless case?

NGU.

[kentuck]

44. "potential" allies or present enemies?

The future is now.

[ClassWarrior]

46. Enemies or victims, ken? What happened to that old Progressive compassion?

Or did you ever have it? And who's the real enemy to you ken?

NGU.

[kentuck]

47. Who's my real enemy?

I'm beginning to wonder?? :)

[ClassWarrior]

48. Are they enemies or victims? Why don't you give a direct answer?

Why do you constantly ask pointed questions but rarely take any sort of solid position?

NGU.

[kentuck]

49. I don't know. What do you think?

Enemies or victims?

[ClassWarrior]

50. What do you mean by that?

And if that's a serious question, you DIDN'T read post #21.

NGU. :patriot:

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. It's cyclical. We compromise, they don't. That gives us flexibility

and them rigidity, which is perceived as strength. They use that strength to continually seize power to the point of crisis, they snap, devastate the nation, and we pick up the pieces, giving us the power. We wield power with moderation and compromise. We compromise, they don't...

the only saving grace is that we move farther in the progressive eras than they are able to drag us back in the regressive eras.

[opihimoimoi]

13. The diff is how we look for our common goals: Security, Fun, Health,

etc.,

We Lib/Progs/Dems would rather think/plan/implement various systems until success is achieved.

The Pubs would pray for them and if opposition is met, become angry and defensive. They reject Reality and Reason making it extremely difficult to solve issues re common areas...like the environment and social well being of the Village/Nation/Planet.

Theirs is a system built of greed and selfservice with very little compassion/tolorence for the Others. Hence we all suffer. THEY... are the 3%ers, and.or the Wannabes, who rule the rest of us 97%ers. Look all around us for the confirmation. Its all there.

Come, we go mud sliding down Jackass Ginger.

[Debs]

17. I think we agree the sky is blue

Until the dimson tells them its red

[samilib]

20. Good questions.

I ask myself stuff like this all the time. First, get to talk to individual Republicans. See what you have in common with the individuals and progress from there. You might find that they're not all for all the same politics. In fact, I think most Republicans are to the center right, not the far right.