I have some questions for Democrats

[vcrtime1]

Greetings from the other side,

I just took the politopia.com quiz and came out as Drew Carey.

The questions were somewhat leading, but I would generally describe myself as conservative/libertarian in my views. I actually think I am probably closer to center than this. I am decidedly not liberal.

Many of the positions that Bush claims to have on issues I agree with, but I have not been happy with what he actually does that is inconsistent or completely opposite from these positions. I think many Republicans/conservatives share this view, but we don't often hear about that.

I do sincerely believe Bush is better than Kerry or Gore would have been, but that does not mean I think he is doing a good job, but unfortunately the lesser of two evils. I agree with some of his reasoning for the war in Iraq, and disagree with other aspects of it.

I enjoy much of conservative talk radio, but I do think that Rush and Hannity and others are very strong apologists for Bush and the Republican party in that they do not ever acknowledge mistakes made or things that could have been done better. I don't think this is helpful. I like Boortz, Bush did a good job on this, Bush did a bad job on that, it is common sense to do this, etc. I don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he is more willing to look at an issue and form an opinion without regard to whether it supports Republicans or not.

I personally believe in not having an abortion, but I also believe that if you don't share my views, that is your business, not mine, and it is not my place to tell you that you cannot. So I guess I am pro-choice with "life" being my own choice.

Having said that as a bit of background, I do have some questions for Democrats that I have wanted to know about for a long time.

1. Many Democratic issues appear to have merit, but the way they are presented in such a negative, sneering and in-your-face manner makes them undesirable to me.

My perception of Democrats from the top down, and even as I read this message board, much of what I see consists of bashing and insulting Bush and Republican congressmen and senators and Republicans in general, rather than reasoned discussions of important issues. I know there are people on the right that do this also, but I find that it is far easier to find true discussions of issues on the right (whether correct or incorrect) than there are on the left. When I see left/right interviews on TV news, the people on the Democratic side seem to want to tear down the person on the Republican side rather than debate the issue presented. I don't understand this and it doesn't seem to me to be an effective or persuasive way to get your message out, it usually makes me just want to tune out to the Democratic position and I would guess this would be true of many non-Democrats.

2. Some of the Democratic positions on issues are very extreme to me.

a. For example, I do not want the environment to be destroyed, but I also acknowledge that 100% preservation is not possible in our modern-day society. I see high profile Democrats such as Hollywood stars getting very upset about people driving SUVs, but then I read an article that many of these same people are buying these new "luxury garbage trucks," much larger and heavier and using much more fuel than the biggest SUV. I see Democrats accusing Bush of going to war for oil, but then not wanting him to allow oil drilling in a tiny part of the northernmost part of Alaska, and also not willing to give up their own use of petroleum products.

b. Another example, I believe strongly in helping people who cannot help themselves. I do not believe it is the role of government to do this, but I am willing to let the government help Americans in need, when the need is real. What I do not like is taking my hard-earned money and paying it to someone who is able, but not willing, to work. I do not like paying my money to people who have children they cannot afford, and who have 3, 4, 5 children or more, and continue to get paid more and more for it. I worked hard for that money to support my family, and I do not want to pay that money to someone who is not willing to also work for it for themselves. I don't mind covering a gap, such as when unexpected things happen, or an emergency that could not have been planned for, or even someone who made a mistake and ended up in an unfortunate financial situation, etc., in fact I would gladly pay out of my own pocket as much as I could for anyone in that situation, but I don't understand paying so much of my money on a consistent basis for people who could be at least trying to help themselves but don't.

On the flip side of this issue, I appreciate hard work and achievement, but I do not think it is necessary for people like Garth Brooks or Shaq or Julia Roberts to make tens of millions of dollars at a time, or worse, teenagers like Paris Hilton, the Olsen twins or Jessica Simpson. I don't mind them making a good living, a lot of money, but with all the people in this country who go without necessities such as food, shelter, healthcare, the excess of these people and the foolish ways they spend their money does not seem right to me. I cannot stand seeing Jessica Simpson whining because she can't get a $4,000 purse she had her heart set on. But I don't know what the answer is.

c. A third example, illegal immigration. Why is this even an issue? I don't have any problem with immigration. We have a process set up in our laws to handle this. These laws were originally debated and then passed by congress and signed by the president. I do have a problem with ILLEGAL. Democrats have gone so far as to now call illegal immigrants "undocumented aliens." I just don't understand. The very first thing these people do when they arrive in the U.S. is break the law. It is not legal for them to be here, it is not legal for them to work here. So why are we protecting them and giving them drivers licenses and healthcare and education?

I see two possible solutions here: 1) enforce the immigration laws and allow legal immigrants to stay and send illegal immigrants back to where they came from; or 2) change the immigration laws so that someone from another country can just enter the U.S. and stay and live and work, legally. I don't understand the third option of allowing them to break the law and then benefit from breaking those laws.

Well, that's some of my questions, I have a lot more, but that's a good start, I would be very interested to receive some real responses for consideration and discussion. I hope my writing has been clear. I know there is a lot wrong with the right and I know there is a lot of corruption and hypocrasy, I know that. I don't want people coming back and just pushing that in my face, I would like real answers to my real questions on the Democratic side.

I see our once great country going down the toilet more and more each day, primarily from what I believe to be the influence of Democrats over the past 50 years, much more so during the past 10 years, and I'm sure what you believe to be the influence of Republicans over the same period.

I don't want to hate Democrats, and I don't hate them, though I think Democrats think I hate them just because I am conservative. I just don't understand some of the things in which Democrats believe, and the ways in which they go about trying to get others to agree with them. I think a lot of people like me have the same questions and the same reaction to Democrats. I don't think we are well represented by some of the hate-mongers and the more visible conservatives who promote the "agenda" at all costs, but we are there and we want to know more.

If we could find our common ground and work to make issues there better, then work outward towards our respective left and right views, we would have a better time understanding each other and working together for good, rather than going all the way to our extreme corners and hating each other and getting nothing good done on either side. I would like to give you credit for what you have done well, and I would like the same kind of consideration in return.

Thank you.

Tod

[Worst Username Ever]

1. Hello Tod.

I hope that you will find what you are looking for in this thread, although I am going to point out the obvious here: Stated very clearly in the rules of this board is that this is a message board for progressive and liberal discussion. Because of this rule, it is likely that you will get banned. Please do not take that to mean that we are not interested in hearing the concerns of the other side, it is just that this is a place where we go to discuss the different sides of our own issues, e.g. what to do about the things you brought up. In other words, we are interested in the other side's view, just not on this board. I personally have numerous conservative friends and family members, with whom I have an open dialog about politics, but I would not likely expect them to be welcome on this board. Having said that, Welcome to DU, enjoy your stay.

[Jo March]

2. Welcome to DU! Okay, for your point B

Corporate welfare costs this country billions more than welfare to needy families ever did, could or will. I'm pretty willing to bet that *'s tax cuts have cost the country more than welfare to families did in 2004.

Most of the families who receive welfare do not have 4, 5 or 6 kids and continue having kids to get more welfare money. The story of the Welfare Queen (a la Ronnie Reagan) is just that - a story. Most families that are on welfare are on it due to large medical bills, unexpected unemployment, etc.

The outrage should be that some corporations pay a negative amount in taxes not that someone in Idaho got an extra $50 a month in assistance.

I would rather that a hundred people cheat the welfare system regularly than allow one child to go hungry because of dried-up benefits.

Yes, some liberals are very in-your-face. I agree about that. The thing to remember about liberals (and DU) is that we try to bring the FACTS to the table. I know - we get accused of being "bleeding heart" and ruled by our emotions. The simple fact is that we see all sides and do not try to see simply black or white.

I wish you luck here. If you are open and honest and do not cheerlead for * and his administration, you will find that you participate in some of the best debates around. And yes, DU does have debates regardless of what you might hear.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I'll give ya the short answers

There's plenty of reasoned debate, you're reading the wrong threads

Watch a bit harder on Dem's talking on news shows and pay a bit more attention to WHEN they are cut off

There's nothing extreme about wanting higher CAFE standards as opposed to drilling in national treasures, especially when MINIMALLY raising those CAFE standards would OBVIATE the need to bomb anybody or drill in those national treasures

I agree. I don't like my money going to people who are able but not willing to work which is why I am opposed to government subsidies to large corporations whose CEO's are making hundreds of millions of dollars. There is NOTHING a person can do that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars and it's fine with me if they make that much, just not on MY SUBSIDIZED DIME.

I am fine with enforcing immigration laws, but until someone has had a HEARING on their right to be in the USA ( as they may have family which would permit them to be here or they may BE a refugee or someone seeking asylum), I think it's wrong to assume they are criminals.

Furthermore, I completely object to right wing funded studies which dishonestly display the COSTS of illegal immigration without factoring in ALL THAT THEY pay in benefits and their contribution to the economy in agricultural states

I also think it's wrong that if a Mexican ARRIVES here, they are criminalized and if a Cuban MAKES it to shore, they get to stay.

They get education because it is available to RESIDENTS...RESIDENTS DO pay taxes. They are not getting ANYTHING they are not CONTRIBUTING to.
On drivers' licenses...what better way to keep TRACK of people that with an ID (duh!)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Please don't erase this thread..I typed fast!

[demo dutch]

11. How about it's wrong that when a Haitian makes it to shore they

are criminalized and if a Cuban makes it to shore they get to stay.
Then you know it's strictly discrimination and a political "vote" issue.
BTW you sound more like an "Independent" to me

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. thanks..that too

[Enraged_Ape]

5. That is a terrific post. Welcome to Democratic Underground!

I agree with a LOT of what you said. I think you will find a lot of people here do. I think you've come to the right place.

I think a lot of your questions have to deal with your perceptions of what Democrats stand for. You have to keep in mind that these perceptions have been shaped 24/7, for at least 20 years, by a media that is 80% owned by global megacorporations...and who are therefore hard-core Republican.

I tend to believe most Republicans want the same things most Democrats do: they want to live in safe neighborhoods, have healthy families, have healthy, educated children--basically live in a comfortable society where everyone is pretty much happy. Unfortunately, the Republicans currently in power are the antithesis of any of that. But I think you realize that.

I think we ALL need to work together, red and blue, on getting thieves, con artists, and fascists out of office--whatever their party--and in creating the kind of society I described. We all have things to bring to the table in this regard.

Again, welcome. Keep posting here.

[aldian159]

6. The vitriol from the left is a little much most times.

You are far from the first person I've seen upset at the fire sprouted from the left, and there are hundreds of people (many on this board) who say that fire is deserved and more. The best way to reach out to moderates and conservative leaning people, like yourself, is an active debate about the issues, not a smear campaign chock-full of personal attacks. However, I won't take the first step and give up personal attacks when the right does it more and better than we do.

[eallen]

7. Let me offer several comments as someone who leans in your direction....

(1) Each of the major party has extremists. The extremists in the Democratic party make me laugh -- Hollywood celebrities whose views are geared more toward entertainment than substance, the remant of socialists, etc. That's because they are so far from what the Democrats do when in power that their extremism isn't worrying. Today's extremists in the GOP frighten me. That's because people like Dobson, Rove, Bauer, and others who are intent on turning this nation into a theocracy not only influence the party, but have control in it. That's quite a change from twenty years ago, or even ten.

(2) Along this line, I find it odd that in your mind the Democratic stance on welfare is simply blind give-away. It seems to me that if one were to characterize the Democratic stance, it would be the welfare reform passed under a Democratic president and Congress, which is to say, something pretty moderate.

(3) Does the opposition also paint the GOP by its extremists rather than its mainstream? Maybe. But one of the extreme GOP views that bothers me is the notion that parts of the Bill of Rights should be disincorporated. Is that discussed only by extremist preachers in their evangelical meetings? No, it also is discussed by sitting Supreme Court justices! Again, it seems to me that the extremists in the Democrat Party, while vocal, have little practical influence, while the extremists in the GOP are holding its reins.

(4) Similarly, the issue to me in 2004 wasn't whether Kerry would make a better president than Bush, in some pristine comparison of the two men, but whether Kerry facing a Republican Congress would provide better government than Bush leading a Republican Congress. There is no doubt in my mind that the answer to that second question is "yes," especially given how events have unfolded since. I'm a big believer in checks and balances, and the new, radical GOP controlling all three branches of government makes the libertarian in me want to stock up on ammo and MREs. :7

[MindPilot]

8. I wish I had the time to address each of your questions point by point

but I'm at work. I would like to thank you for your well-written and the non-confrontational tone of your post.

I do want to point out however that several of the issues you address are mythical. There are not a whole bunch of people who are collecting welfare just because they are too lazy to work. Obviously there will be abuse of any benefit system, but the vast majority of people drawing public assistance don't have jobs because there aren't any or they do have jobs, but the wages are so low--driven down by conservative policies--they cannot make ends meet. I'm sure you're aware that the ultimate conservative employer--Wal-Mart--actually teaches its employees how to apply for public assistance. And as I always ask those who complain about the supposed "welfare cheats". if it's such a good deal why are YOU working for a living?

I would like to know what TV shows you are watching where there is a liberal point of view.

[Jo March]

18. MindPilot, I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying

I blame Ronald Reagan for his stupid lie about the welfare queen! There was no welfare queen but this gets repeated so often that it is taken as truth.

Good point about Wal-mart. Did you know that many military families also qualify for public assistance of some kind? It's shameful yet big corporations pay very little in taxes, sometimes as little as 1.5%!!

[MindPilot]

27. It's absolutely shamefull that the families of the troops

"they" claim to support so much would have to be getting food stamps.

[theliberalavenger]

9. Regarding your pro-choice/life stance...

<i>I personally believe in not having an abortion, but I also believe that if you don't share my views, that is your business, not mine, and it is not my place to tell you that you cannot. So I guess I am pro-choice with "life" being my own choice.</i>

I suspect most conservatives would be surprised to hear that this is the position of <i>every</i> liberal. The pro-life lobby has framed pro-choice as being the same as "pro-abortion" or "pro-death." This simply isn't the case.

[Kipepeo]

41. Exactly

The pro-choice position allows each person their own personal beliefs on the subject and allows them to make the decision for themselves.

I also find that pro-choice people are usually the most honestly concerned about improving sex ed and preventing unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs, but people of the ant-choice political position are usually also anti-choice when it comes to having access to sex ed. and contraceptives.

[Arkana]

10. Well, Tod, you certainly sound sincere.

Welcome to DU, first off.

Second, I'll acknowledge your post brings up several good points--but I have to know: Why is Bush the "lesser of two evils" over Kerry and Gore? You seem to be closer politically to them than Bush.

[SteppingRazor]

12. Here's my answers.

1. To you, it looks like Democrats are tearing down Republicans. To us, it looks the other way around. You notice personal attacks a lot more when they are attacks at your own side. I can just imagine a lot of people on these boards picking their jaws up off the floor when you said that it seems like Republicans have reasoned debate, while Democrats just attack.

Pat " Bomb them for Christ" Robertson, Jerry " Gays caused 9/11" Falwell, Sean "God, I hate these guys" Hannity, Ann "Liberals are treasonous" Coulter ... these people provide enlightened debate on the issues? Certainly not from our point of view.

2. a. I don't want a war for oil, and I don't want ANWR drilled, though I'd rather have the latter than the former. Instead of either of those, why not emphasize renewable energy resources? The world WILL run out of oil someday. Why not prepare now before it's too late? Why not develop clean, renewable energy sources while we still have the fossil fuels to make development of the infrastructure possible?
As for these hypocritical Hollywood liberals you mention, Tim Robbins drives a hybrid car. Schwarzenegger drives a Hummer. I think you'll find that many of the environmentally conscious Hollywood types actually practice what they preach.

2. b. Ever since welfare reform under Bill Clinton, this idea of making money off many kids has been, simply put, an impossibility. The "Welfare Queens" that Reagan railed against no longer exist in the same sense. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. You cannot make enough money to survive, much less prosper, simply by having kids and charging the government.

2. c. I agree. Illegal immigrants are just that. Illegal. Nuff said.

[LdyGuique]

13. Tod, you gave a thoughtful and reasoned explanation of your

beliefs and observations. Your questions weren't exactly questions, but statements of how you belief, which I presume means you'd like discussion on those topics.

First of all, Democrats range all over the spectrum on all of these issues -- from very left liberal over towards fiscal conservative, but socially liberal/moderate. You are most similar to the latter. As for hypoctrical behavior, that's hardly unique to either party. You'll find at least one person on this board to agree with each of your positions, but not necessarily all in one person. Many of these positions get hotly debated, along with the Bush and freeper trashing.

You won't get much agreement over Bush and Republican politics. Most believe that Bush isn't particularly bright and is being manipulated as a puppet-king by the neocons, at the very least. Most would add that he's also mentally unstable and so egotistical that it is easy to manipulate him. Most feel that he outright lies on issues of policy or is so stupid as not to see the vast gap between public statements and the reality of budget line items (such as Homeland Security/INS legislation that calls for 10,000 border guards over five years, with 2,000/year -- and the actual budget calling for 200 more). Most definitely do not agree with the inclusion of fundamentalist Christian beliefs into the government as they do want a theocracy and a suspension of the Constitutional pluralism.

[Fleshdancer]

15. My take on immigration laws

I would absolutely prefer that all immigrants be here legally, I don't know any Democrat who hopes for large amounts of illegal immigrants. The problem I have with discussing this issue with some Republicans (not all) is the high level of racism and all around ugliness toward people who cross the border illegally. It's the inability to see these people as human regardless of whether they possess a piece of paper issued by the US government that is so alarming to me.

When the topic of immigration comes up, I notice how very one-sided the conversation is. We talk about tightening our borders, but when was the last time you've ever heard Republican politicians discussing more severe punishments for the American companies who employ illegal immigrants? We need to get real and recognize that if a small sliver of the American dream presents itself to someone who wants it but doesn't have it, then that opportunity will be taken. People will, and have died for the opportunities you and I take for granted and that will never change. You can't reduce illegal immigration without cracking down on the companies who hire illegal immigrants.

As far as this message board goes and the negative posts about Republicans...well, it's called Democratic Underground for a reason. This is a place for us to vent frustration and anger. Republicans have their version as well but you don't expect the entire country to judge you based on what is written on the Free Republic forum, do you?

on edit: I almost forgot, welcome to DU :hi:

[MsUnderstood]

16. You blame us for your own failings in your party.

"1. Many Democratic issues appear to have merit, but the way they are presented in such a negative, sneering and in-your-face manner makes them undesirable to me."

Okay, I guess pushing the case of one person in Florida all the way to the supreme court and ignoring the sanctity of marriage (when in other situations marriage is protected because it is the foundation of our society) while we have war, economic woes, foriegn issues, immigration needs, and an energy crisis is not in your face? Calling for the death and disbarrment of judicial judges is not negative or sneering?

"2. Some of the Democratic positions on issues are very extreme to me."

So it isn't extreme that the republicans continue to put the bible in the constitution when the first amendement cleary states FREEDOM OF RELIGION. I'm not talking freedom from the spirituality, just the ability to embrace the beliefs of all religious doctrines other than Christianity.

regarding a, b, c points:
If you are concerned with the environment, then listen to the left on this one. Bush is opening up drilling in America that will do little or nothing for our energy problem while his best friends America and Saudi gouge us for gas prices.

If you are concerned with immigration, then listen to the left. We want out of a loosing war so we can focus our national income on protecting the borders.

[EstimatedProphet]

17. Welcome to DU

There's a lot of people that might be upset that someone coming to DU is a self-described conservative, however, I don't believe you're a troll given the way you have phrased your opinions. I personally welcome differing opinions, so long as they are stated with respect.

Now, as for my responses:

1) I personally find there's a lot more honest, reasonable discussion on the left. I expect it is easier to find that the discussion is reasonable when you already agree with the opposition. I disagree that there is a lot of "sneering, in-your-face" attitude on the left; that attitude seems to me to be owned solely by the right. After all, the left isn't the one that usually argues that anyone who disagrees is a traitor.

2) the current Republican position seems far more extreme to me. Look at the Chalcedon council for an example, or Focus on the Family. Look at the Republicans in Congress who are trying to change the Constitution to get rid of filibustering, so that they have no voice. That is disenfranchisement of Americans-how anti-American can you get?

2a) Hollywood is full of hypocrites, just like Washington. I personally drive a pickup that gets 25 mpg-not great, but better than an SUV. However, I also recognize that SUVs have their place, and there are a number of people that may need one for their own work. I've had plenty of jobs like that myself. Hollywood movie star isn't one of them though. Also, What good will drilling ANWR do in the long run? That isn't a solution to the energy problems, it's a stop-gap. Oil is far better used as a lubricant (it will be extremely hard to replace for lubrication purposes) than for energy anyway, so worry about it for energy and why not work on alternative forms of energy NOW before it's too late? Leave ANWR alone-it won't do anything but stretch out the agony.

2b) Name one person that is like you described. Just one. I'm not saying that no one uses welfare for profit, but I have serious doubts that the problem is anywhere near as extensive as you believe it to be. If you can't do that, you are inventing a problem for all you know. I'm disgusted with the whole "welfare queen" argument anyway. Reagan made up the "welfare queen" back in the '80s, and it became part of the public consciousness in part because it condoned racism-in everyone's mind, that "welfare queen" was black. If you really are concerned about your tax dollars, then why support an administration that doles out corporate welfare at 10 times the amount it does private welfare? Why suck up to corporations and give them such ridiculous tax breaks? It isn't rejuvenating the economy because the economy hasn't been rejuvenated after 4 years of it. If you really want to be outraged at how the government is using your money to pay people that don't deserve it, you should be screaming at how Halliburton gets no-bid contracts to overcharge the government and make our soldiers pay over $20 for a spoiled hamburger, and is also complicit in making an unnecessary war cost effectively ten times our costs for WWII-which by the way, was won.

2c) I don't have a problem with enforcing immigration laws at all-unless enforcing them means bringing in a bunch of people with no law enforcement experience to patrol the Southwest. However, you forget that the illegal immigrants that are here are paying taxes, and thus are adding to the infrastructure where they live, and your plans don't allow them to use that infrastructure. If you think they all should be deported, fine. I can agree with that. However, if you think they should stay here and still receive nothing, even though they are paying into the system, then I disagree.

[paineinthearse]

19. vcrtime1

welcome to DU :hi:

[Worst Username Ever]

22. Already tombstoned :-(

[Jo March]

26. Well, that was pretty quick.

I wonder if vcrtime1 was stirring up trouble elsewhere. This post seemed pretty reasonable.

[madinmaryland]

29. The post was at least well written,

but anytime you state that you prefer Bush over Kerry or Gore (or any Democrat for that matter) is bound to get you booted pretty quick. Its all in the rules.

[Jo March]

30. True, true

* is better than Gore or Kerry - what nonsense!

Still, I was glad to read the post. I did a quick search on Tod's other posts and they were mostly one line posts. Interesting.

Oh, well. We can't have folks coming here to disrupt. This is the last refuge that I have against the right!!

[Kerrytravelers]

34. I actually wasn't bothered by this at all.

I hope the mods leave it here for a while so others can read through it. This is a well written thread on all accounts.

[Jo March]

35. No - I wasn't bothered by this post

I was making a general statement about disruptors. :)

[faithnotgreed]

38. fully agree

what happened?

[thoughtanarchist]

39. I agree!

It's refreshing for us to all chime in on our common concerns instead of going head to head against one another...


feels like reaffirming your wedding vows.

[Terre]

47. He was tombstoned even before I saw the first reply

I suppose rules are rules, but it seems a shame that he can't participate in the discourse even if he does support *.

I hope he is at least lurking, and I would encourage anyone that wants to reply to his post to continue to do so, in the way we do best - with thoughtfulness and reason.

Remember folks, as I hear Randi Rhodes say frequently - "I'm (we're) not here to preach to the choir".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Good..there's a thousand places to debate conservatives

[thoughtanarchist]

20. with what time we have together, I'll address your points:

I do sincerely believe Bush is better than Kerry or Gore would have been, but that does not mean I think he is doing a good job, but unfortunately the lesser of two evils. I agree with some of his reasoning for the war in Iraq, and disagree with other aspects of it.
________________________________________________

I notice that you gave no reasons for considering B*sh as "the lesser of two evils" was it economic policy (failure) his reasons for STARTING the Iraq war (unfounded & debunked) or was it the mischaracterization and demonization of Gore / Kerry from MSM that convinced you?
________________________________________________

I enjoy much of conservative talk radio, but I do think that Rush and Hannity and others are very strong apologists for Bush and the Republican party in that they do not ever acknowledge mistakes made or things that could have been done better. I don't think this is helpful. I like Boortz, Bush did a good job on this, Bush did a bad job on that, it is common sense to do this, etc. I don't agree with him on everything, but I do think he is more willing to look at an issue and form an opinion without regard to whether it supports Republicans or not.
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I'll not comment on RW talk radio
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I personally believe in not having an abortion, but I also believe that if you don't share my views, that is your business, not mine, and it is not my place to tell you that you cannot. So I guess I am pro-choice with "life" being my own choice.
________________________________________________
Welcome to the "do not infringe upon my freedom" club! You are in good company.
________________________________________________

Having said that as a bit of background, I do have some questions for Democrats that I have wanted to know about for a long time.

1. Many Democratic issues appear to have merit, but the way they are presented in such a negative, sneering and in-your-face manner makes them undesirable to me.
________________________________________________
Purely a matter of perception. Perhaps you'd like to explore how you came under this impression? Is it partially the following paragraph?
________________________________________________

My perception of Democrats from the top down, and even as I read this message board, much of what I see consists of bashing and insulting Bush and Republican congressmen and senators and Republicans in general, rather than reasoned discussions of important issues. I know there are people on the right that do this also, but I find that it is far easier to find true discussions of issues on the right (whether correct or incorrect) than there are on the left. When I see left/right interviews on TV news, the people on the Democratic side seem to want to tear down the person on the Republican side rather than debate the issue presented. I don't understand this and it doesn't seem to me to be an effective or persuasive way to get your message out, it usually makes me just want to tune out to the Democratic position and I would guess this would be true of many non-Democrats.
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Reasoning works in reasoned discourse. Left/Right shout-down matches do not even approach reasoned discourse. Dems did not choose that format, but you cannot counter a shout-down with reasoned discourse. When they try the RW tries to brand dems as "weak".
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2. Some of the Democratic positions on issues are very extreme to me.

a. For example, I do not want the environment to be destroyed, but I also acknowledge that 100% preservation is not possible in our modern-day society. I see high profile Democrats such as Hollywood stars getting very upset about people driving SUVs, but then I read an article that many of these same people are buying these new "luxury garbage trucks," much larger and heavier and using much more fuel than the biggest SUV. I see Democrats accusing Bush of going to war for oil, but then not wanting him to allow oil drilling in a tiny part of the northernmost part of Alaska, and also not willing to give up their own use of petroleum products.
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Hollywood actors do not represent Dem ideals any more than Coulter represents Repub ideals. That's like saying Eric Rudolph personifies republican ideals. Do you think Rudolph is representative of your opinions?
________________________________________________

b. Another example, I believe strongly in helping people who cannot help themselves. I do not believe it is the role of government to do this, but I am willing to let the government help Americans in need, when the need is real. What I do not like is taking my hard-earned money and paying it to someone who is able, but not willing, to work. I do not like paying my money to people who have children they cannot afford, and who have 3, 4, 5 children or more, and continue to get paid more and more for it. I worked hard for that money to support my family, and I do not want to pay that money to someone who is not willing to also work for it for themselves. I don't mind covering a gap, such as when unexpected things happen, or an emergency that could not have been planned for, or even someone who made a mistake and ended up in an unfortunate financial situation, etc., in fact I would gladly pay out of my own pocket as much as I could for anyone in that situation, but I don't understand paying so much of my money on a consistent basis for people who could be at least trying to help themselves but don't.
________________________________________________
A typical RW talking point for which the fine print is never discussed. We already have welfare reform. Generations of people on the dole is already a thing of the past. Far, far, far more of your hard earned $$ is spent on killing people on the other side of the world than is spent helping our own poor.
________________________________________________

On the flip side of this issue, I appreciate hard work and achievement, but I do not think it is necessary for people like Garth Brooks or Shaq or Julia Roberts to make tens of millions of dollars at a time, or worse, teenagers like Paris Hilton, the Olsen twins or Jessica Simpson. I don't mind them making a good living, a lot of money, but with all the people in this country who go without necessities such as food, shelter, healthcare, the excess of these people and the foolish ways they spend their money does not seem right to me. I cannot stand seeing Jessica Simpson whining because she can't get a $4,000 purse she had her heart set on. But I don't know what the answer is.
________________________________________________
The answer is estate tax and progressive taxation.
Two things that attempt to counter the consolidation of wealth and power to an elite few. Two things that Republicans want to do away with.
________________________________________________


c. A third example, illegal immigration. Why is this even an issue? I don't have any problem with immigration. We have a process set up in our laws to handle this. These laws were originally debated and then passed by congress and signed by the president. I do have a problem with ILLEGAL. Democrats have gone so far as to now call illegal immigrants "undocumented aliens." I just don't understand. The very first thing these people do when they arrive in the U.S. is break the law. It is not legal for them to be here, it is not legal for them to work here. So why are we protecting them and giving them drivers licenses and healthcare and education?
________________________________________________
Dems are in disagreement on this issue. I personally fall into the camp that illegal is illegal and that's all there is to it.
________________________________________________


I see two possible solutions here: 1) enforce the immigration laws and allow legal immigrants to stay and send illegal immigrants back to where they came from; or 2) change the immigration laws so that someone from another country can just enter the U.S. and stay and live and work, legally. I don't understand the third option of allowing them to break the law and then benefit from breaking those laws.

Well, that's some of my questions, I have a lot more, but that's a good start, I would be very interested to receive some real responses for consideration and discussion. I hope my writing has been clear. I know there is a lot wrong with the right and I know there is a lot of corruption and hypocrasy, I know that. I don't want people coming back and just pushing that in my face, I would like real answers to my real questions on the Democratic side.

I see our once great country going down the toilet more and more each day, primarily from what I believe to be the influence of Democrats over the past 50 years, much more so during the past 10 years, and I'm sure what you believe to be the influence of Republicans over the same period.

I don't want to hate Democrats, and I don't hate them, though I think Democrats think I hate them just because I am conservative. I just don't understand some of the things in which Democrats believe, and the ways in which they go about trying to get others to agree with them. I think a lot of people like me have the same questions and the same reaction to Democrats. I don't think we are well represented by some of the hate-mongers and the more visible conservatives who promote the "agenda" at all costs, but we are there and we want to know more.

________________________________________________
I think the more you learn about the Dem platform the more you'll see that it's more in line with the needs of regular people than not -- especially on economic issues and civil liberties.

Civil liberties means your personal freedom. Not the RW garbage about forcing a minority agenda on you. If you want a minority agenda forced upon you, see what happens if the fillibuster is broken and the courts are filled with judges that have no respect for reproductive rights.

________________________________________________




If we could find our common ground and work to make issues there better, then work outward towards our respective left and right views, we would have a better time understanding each other and working together for good, rather than going all the way to our extreme corners and hating each other and getting nothing good done on either side. I would like to give you credit for what you have done well, and I would like the same kind of consideration in return.
________________________________________________
I hope you found what you're looking for!

Peace
Thought.

[lukasahero]

36. Man I hope he's still reading here

This was a good post!

[thoughtanarchist]

44. agreed!

It's great to see how we all spell out the differences between the two sides, how so much harm and waste could be / could have been avoided if this message was clearly delivered to the TV zombie public.

[RubyDuby in GA]

21. Tod, Thanks for coming over....here goes:

I know a lot of conservatives that are extremely unhappy with what the Bush Administration has done to America. They're also very unhappy about being lumped in with Bush, who continues to call himself a "conservative", but continually does things that would suggest otherwise.

I respect your opinion that Bush "is better than Kerry or Gore would have been", but I must strongly disagree. I feel that either of these men would have done a much better job at keeping America safe from attacks and would not have recklessly endangered (or sent off to their deaths) American soldiers for an unjust war.

I agree with you about abortion. I am not pro-abortion, and I truly believe that just about everyone who is pro-choice is not pro-abortion either. We simply believe in letting a woman decide what is best for her life and her body. My best friend has had an abortion. She already had two little boys and her husband ran off and left her with nothing. They were barely scraping by as it was and another child would have sent them over the edge. She didn't want to end up as one of those "Welfare Queens" that Republicans like to talk about so much.

As for your questions,
*concerning what you see on TV, I think many people have given up trying to get a reasoned argument on TV. The so called liberal media is really only as liberal as the people who own the outlets (and they are not liberal - follow the money trail). I have seen so many "liberal" people shouted down by supposed "journalists" that I don't watch anymore because it's impossible to get a reasoned debate.

*I agree that 100% preservation of our environment is not possible in this day and age. I also agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy out there about people complaining about the environment, then getting in their giant Hummer and driving off (a la Arnold, current Republican Governor of California). How's that outfitting to cleaner fuel going, Arnold? But in the vast majority of people's lives, it's neither here nor there what these Hollywood celebrities are doing. I don't look like Barbara Streisand and I don't look to her to tell me how to act or what to think.

I do believe in helping the needy. I don't think it's possible to really be able to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" anymore (if it ever was. I have a degree in History, with an emphasis in early American - I can argue this point well if need be). The way our society is geared nowadays, very few people can become the next Bill Gates. I agree with you about the excess of people like Paris Hilton (please God determine that her 15 minutes of fame are up soon and make her go away!!!) I have no use for shallow, self-absorbed people who care more about their spoiled, fashion accessory dogs than they do about people starving to death, not in third world countries, but right here in America. I do care about people in other countries, but I also believe we should take care of our own first. End hunger in America before we try to eradicate it from the rest of the world.

*Now speaking of the rest of the world, or as you put it, illegal immigration, I differ from a few on this board. I feel that our laws, or particularly, the law enforcement are too lax. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone wanting to come to the United States using proper channels. After all, the overwhelming majority of Americans came from somewhere else (just ask any Native American about illegal immigration). Don't point your finger at Democrats trying to skirt the laws. President Bush is trying to give amnesty to all the illegals to cater to an incredibly large voting bloc.

I'm curious to know why you think this country is going down the toilet over the last 10 years especially. Ten years ago, in 1995, there was a Democratic president, but we've been controlled by a Republican Congress. All that is not right with America cannot be blamed on Bill (although that is Rush's favorite pasttime).

I'm all about finding common ground and working together. Far too many issues are getting pushed to the background while pundits take partisan swipes at each other and nothing gets done. In the end, we all want what is best for America, ourselves and our families. We just have very fundamentally different beliefs about how to go about getting these things and it's in these differences that we have got to strive to find that common ground.

Please feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss this any further.

[Kerrytravelers]

23. My issues often lie with corporate greed.

A perfect example is the latest Bankruptcy Bill.

It is estimated that approximately 95% of bankruptcy in America is due to a medical crisis or a surprise unemployment. Approximately 5% of America got into a financial crisis because they were irresponsible.

Personally, we have had both a medical situation and unemployment in the past two years. In fact, my husband's job went overseas to India. Thankfully, the medical one turned out not to be as bad as first reported to us. And also, thankfully, my parents are capable of tossing some money our way to help us make it. We did not have to declare bankruptcy. This year, we made 75% less than we did just two short years ago. My husband and I are both college educated with Master's degrees. We are not lazy nor big spenders. We just can't seem to catch a foothold. And, I am finding as I talk to more and more people, we are quite typical of the current American situation.

A very dear friend of mine, my matron of honor, is married with a young son. She is 29 years old. At five, she suffered from leukemia. At 20, she was diagnosed with brain tumors. For nine years, she has suffered and undergone 7 brain surgeries. Sounds unbelievable, but true. She is a fighter.

Her husband works and she works, when she can. Then, she got pregnant. The baby caused a regrowth of tumors.

Personally, I believe she deserves health care. Her husband's job dropped carrying health care. Her husband went to a trade school, not a four year college. He never was extremely academically inclined and had some learning problems in school. But he is a good and honest man who only wants the best for his family.

She is from a military family (I am too, by the way.) He made the decision, after speaking with his in-laws, that in the military, he would have a stable job and his wife would get health care. He joined the Navy and received special permission to stay in their home area (a Navy town) so his wife could stay with the same doctors she'd always had.

I think it is terrible that we are in a situation where good, honest people can not stay in their chosen careers because they have to find a place- any place- where they can make an honest living, provide for their families and have affordable health care.

We have become a nation of corporations, not culture. The poor is indeed getting poorer and the rich are getting indeed richer.



{edited for spelling.}

[Kerrytravelers]

31. I also have one glaring question that can not be answered.

Why has neither Bush nor Cheney attended one military funeral?

This is the first time a sitting president, a war time president, has not attended one American funeral. Calling the family on the phone or having Rumsfeld stamp his signature on a certificate isn't the same as attending a funeral.

That is what leaves me speechless. It also leaves my Vietnam vetern father quite speechless.

[formerrepuke]

24. You mention Drew Carey- a Republican from my hometown, Cleveland

...he's a moderate, at best. But unlike Drew, I am no longer a Republican.
I still consider myself pretty conservative, though:

I find abortion horrifying (but I also am aware that outlawing the procecure will only transfer it to crime syndicates- just like prohibition of alcohol did);
I believe that church attendance plays an important role in the upbringing of our youth (but I am a firm believer in secular culture- religion is a private, personal matter);
I have the utmost respect for military personnel and their voluntary decision to serve our country (but I do not like seeing them used -repeatedly- for accomplishing dubious political goals);
I don't like seeing tax money used to support lazy, baby-producing leeches (but I know that even though there are some people who fit that description, it is mostly a myth. Furthermore, we have to accept that a segment of the population will always need assistance...that's what makes a human society- as opposed to the survival-of-the-fittest cycle found in nature);
I could go on and on and on.. but the final straw for me was the abduction of the Republican party by religious fundamentalists. They make me ashamed to be Christian sometimes- with their anti-progess, anti-science, intolerant agendas.

[ieoeja]

25. Your conclusion seems odd.

I see our once great country going down the toilet more and more each day, primarily from what I believe to be the influence of Democrats over the past 50 years, much more so during the past 10 years, and I'm sure what you believe to be the influence of Republicans over the same period.

While Democrats did lead the United States out of the Great Depression, through World War II and most of the Cold War, Republicans have ruled the roost since just before the Cold War ended. So if you believe the last 10 years have been the worst, how can you blame that on Democratic influence?

And what Democratic initiatives before that do you blame for our country going into the toilet? The big ones would be:

Social Security
FDIC and FSLIC
Minimum Wage
Child Labor laws
World War II
Cold War
Korea
Vietnam (okay, we screwed that one up)

I'd love to add Environmentalism there, but that came out of the 70s hippie movements and most of those people were and still are diehard Republicans. Heck, the EPA is Nixon's brainchild.

[sinkingfeeling]

28. Hello Tod,

While I do find some of your statements offensive, in that they aren't back by any evidence, I would like to discuss some of your points.

While you may have encountered some Democrats that were bashing and negative, I would ask you, how many times in the last 3 weeks have you heard a Republican office holder label anyone who opposes them a 'Terrorist'? I find name-calling and attempts to de-humanize such people as gays and Arabs, much more offensive than Democrats calling Bush an idiot.

You have been conned into believing that someone is taking your money to give to lazy, fast-reproducing others. One honest look at the federal budget would eliminate that! I would suggest that you become a regular reader of Truthout. Here is a quote on the very topic you brought up:
" Public opinion polls consistently show that people hugely overestimate the portion of public spending that goes to programs like welfare or foreign aid. For example, a Kaiser poll from the mid-90s found that 40 percent of respondents ranked welfare as one of the two largest items in the federal budget, and 40 percent put foreign aid in this category. At the time, the two largest items in the federal budget were Social Security at 22 percent and military spending at 18 percent. The share of the budget going to Aid for Families with Dependent Children, the core welfare program, was less than 1 percent. Adding in food stamps, housing subsidies and other low-income programs could push this figure close to 4 percent. Less than 0.5 percent of the budget went for anything remotely resembling foreign aid." - http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/042705O.shtml

I, on the other hand, greatly resent my tax dollars (and I do pay a considerable amount based on my income and lack of 'tax shelters') going to militarize the entire country. The cost of the American Empire is obscene.

As to illegal immigration, the question is, "who is profiting by it?" And the answer is American farmers and business owners. As long as it is a policy to not require accountability from corporations like Wal-Mart, nothing will change with immigration. I, personally, don't believe, as I have heard several GOP heads say, that the United States is being taken over or colonized by illegal immigrants.

I'm a life-long Democrat and yet I know that little will change in this country as long as it is being run by corporate money. I think we will find out in 30 years that the current administration was the most corrupt to date. Corporations have received hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks from GWB, and in turn, funded the corrupt election that was held last November. Corporations have more legal rights than citizens...they can still sue you or each other, but a GOP-led Congress is making sure you can't sue them! We have seen the drug companies get 'paid back' with the Medicare drug bill, the credit card companies with the bankruptcy bill, the HMOs will be repaid with the 'tort reform', the insurance industry makes out like bandits even from FEMA, and on and on.

I ask that you name one single thing that this administration has done that improved the lives of the middle class or lower class families.

[thoughtanarchist]

32. solid economic points SF...

clear, concise, reference provided...

A+

:think:

[mrgorth]

33. As for the vitriol

We hate Bush with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. You're going to have to deal with some angst.

[faithnotgreed]

37. why was tod tombstoned?

this was a rational and intelligent post and if sincere then he was reaching out in the proper way
and if insincere he certainly was decent in his "disrupting"

it couldnt have been based on his stated preference of bush over kerry or gore as someone posted above - could it?

i truly hope there is more to the story than that

[Shrek]

51. That was probably enough

From the rules:

If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

[Eloriel]

40. Our vitriol

As someone else pointed out, this IS DemocraticUnderground, and I hope you read the rules that you violated, however respectfully, by registering here. (Someone said you're tombstoned already -- that would be a shame, tho in truth I wouldn't want you hanging around and asking impertinent questions in every thread.) DU is our "safe" place and we're not here to win friends and influence people. It's part group therapy, think tank, news bureau, research team. And probably even more than that.

More about vitriol: George Bush taught me to hate. I didn't hate before Bush, now I do, and I don't like that one bit. There are others I hate now as well, people I consider not just wrong but evil, among them Tom DeLay.

Evil? Yes, evil. There is nothing that matters to him but his own power and self-aggrandizement and greed. Nothing. (The same holds true of Bush and numerous others, btw.) I consider that evil when it puts America and individuals at risk in service to their own personal goals and agenda. The raw power grabs alone -- from his redistricting stunt in TX to arranging for the changing the ethics commission rules to allow anyone indicted to continue to serve, and SO MUCH MORE -- he's a fascist and a sociopath, plain and simple. (And I DON'T throw the term fascist around in an ill-informed way, I can assure you.)

I would encourage you to continue to study DU. Again, I regret that you were tombstoned so quickly given your respectfulness -- btw, see how much respect you've gotten in return from respondents to this thread?? It cuts both ways. Most of us here are VERY well aware of the horrendous power grabs as well as the actual threats by rightwing nuts to our physical well-being (not to mention our democracy) by Republican elected officials and pundits -- just look at DeLay's threats against judges and also look at the new law passed in FL!! You're not going to come up with anything similar from those on the Left. What you see here at DU is the worst you'll find and for the most part (99.999999%) we're all talk, just venting.

Thanks for stopping by. Thanks also for being disenchanted with Bush. Look a little deeper (and DU is a good place to do that!) and you'll find much, much, MUCH more to be not just unhappy about downright appalled and actually (realistically!) frightened about.

[zbdent]

42. Seriously, are you getting a lot of your information on Dem candidates

from the "mainstream media", or do you actually go to see how they really stand?

Are you reading their speeches in Congress? (available at http://thomas.loc.gov/)

Are you actually going to their websites to see how they frame where they stand, or are you relying on what the media tells you "how they stand"?

There are plenty of issues where either party shows extremism, and plenty where they show true insight. But the lunatic fringe gets the spotlight.

I do not take anything reported on DU at face value. I prefer to believe information that I can verify independent of a left-leaning website. That gives more credibility to a debate that "I read it on a website".

However, I do like the viewpoints and opinions that are supplied here . . . it gives me a new point of view which I may not have seen, plus it supplements some of the back info that I might not have had available.

[Catchawave]

43. Tod was tombstoned?

I guess he wasn't so gracious on another thread :shrug: I enjoyed reading his views on this thread, as he does sound very centrist and not at all freeper-creeperish.

I agree with him on the personal bashing of BUSHCo here. I'm never comfortable with attacking people instead of their politics. I guess that's when politics stops being fun for me.

I believe it was Elizabeth Edwards' post the other day that clarified my feeling that being nasty, ugly and wishing the worse or harm on our political adversaries, just makes us "one of them" too.

DU is so much better than that, and I hope we can rise above the hate and become the greatest party that we think we are.



:grouphug:

[democrank]

45. Greetings, Tod.....

It`s possible for Democrats and moderate Republicans, Libertarians, Independents to find middle ground from which to launch a unified effort to make this a better place. You could cite crazed Hollywood elites to strengthen an anti-Democrat position. I could cite crazed Hollwood elites to strengthen an anti-Republican position. You could say Boortz is tops, I could tell you I prefer Amy Goodman on Democracy Now. That`s the beauty of it. The problem comes when either side adopts talking points that have no basis in reality, then spreads that stuff around like it was factual.

It`s the hypocricy that gets me. There are Democrats fighting and dying in Iraq as I write. I know some of them. If you were to do an in-depth study of members of Congress, you`d find many, many Democrats with military (and combat) service. Yet, many of the elites in the Republican party never served, even though they question the patriotism of Democrats and our party`s willingness to defend this country. Some of the country`s most vocal rightwing supporters of the war in Iraq chose NOT to serve when it was their turn. Rush Limbaugh never served. Sean Hannity never served. Dick Cheney got FIVE deferments during the Vietnam War. The list of Republican no-shows is very, very long. Democrats have in the past and will continue to defend this country. Period.

Democrats I know believe that corporations shouldn`t be treated better than people. If the CEO of a corporation can get $23,000,000 a year in salary, then the company can damn well afford a decent wage and reasonable benefits for everyone else.

I don`t want the environment to be destroyed either. I know that the balance between environmental protection and economic growth is difficult. I don`t want all the loggers in my village to lose their jobs. That`s why in my state we`ve reached a compromise. Bottom line...we all care about the state. On the other hand, I don`t want some "self-regulating" polluter to be able to dump crap in a low income neighborhood where the people don`t have the means to fight back.

On abortion. I`ve never had one. Don`t even like the idea. My adopted son and my biological daughter would tell you that nothing in the world means more to me than children. But...I never want the government to tell me what I can and can not do with my body. This, like religion, is a personal matter. The government should have no say in it.

I`m an old-fashioned liberal. Look it up in the dictionary sometime. You might be surprised. I was raised in abject poverty and worked like a dog my whole life. I would give my last dollar to a hungry child or a homeless vet. That`s why I belong to the "we" party and not a "me" party. When an AOWL aristocrat can stand before his kingdom and pretend he`s a common rancher hero, my blood starts to boil. When a president of this country can pre-screen an audience so tax-paying Democrats are kept out of his so-called "town meetings", I get mad. When our government can lie about reasons for a war that killed tens of thousands, I want to scream. When torture planes are piloted to other countries on order of my government, yet citizens are told "we don`t do torture", I want to throw up. When Dick Cheney can divvy up a map of Iraqi oilfields long before September 11th, I scratch my head. When Republican leaders can infer God is a Republican and the flag belongs to only one party, I just about want to drop on my knees and give thanks I`m a Democrat.

[Kerrytravelers]

52. Democrank, this was a very well written statement that captures the

emotions of many of us.

Thank you.

[leftofthedial]

46. welcome

and thanks for a (somewhat) dissenting, but respectful point of view

I truthfully don't mean this as ad hominem, but I think you are exactly the kind of gullible sucker that the criminal neotheocons rely on to abet their crimes. If you vote for fascists, no matter how you rationalize it, you are a fascist in my book. I hope you'll reconsider your support of the little bushturd and you criticism of Kerry and Gore, but I kind of doubt you will.

[d_b]

48. Oh stop.

You had me at "Bush was the lesser of two evils"

:rofl:

[Skittles]

49. I find it difficult to take you seriously

Democrats are sneering and in your face? Bush is better than Gore or Kerry? RIDICULOUS.