Who is to blame for our being in Iraq?

[madfloridian]

Howard Dean or the congress who voted for it?

Is DU becoming a place to put the blame on Howard Dean for what our congress did?

Just wondered. Too irritated to make a poll.

He has had the same stance on getting out since early 2003. He was one of two who spoke out early on against the invasion. He spoke loudly.

[BrainRants]

1. Bill Clinton.

:sarcasm:

This *was* Shrub's war.
In November of '04 it became America's war.

[benburch]

2. I don't quite get it either.

Dean simply says we might be stuck with the tarbaby. And maybe he is right. I don't think he opposes finding an alternative though.

Were we to simply pull out, there would be a bloodbath of epic proportions in our wake.

The only way out is to either fix things right or get the international community to grab hold of the tar baby. And they are not in a mood to trust us right now.

[madfloridian]

3. Does someone have a good list of the "yes" Iraq votes of Dems?

In the house and the senate? I posted them, but they were mixed in with Republicans.

I think it is time to start holding their feet to the fire.

[emulatorloo]

9. This is George Bush's War -- hold George Bush's feet to the fire

I understand you're lashing out at another thread -- but this is George Bush's war, always has been. He wanted it, he was going to get it no matter what.

[madfloridian]

13. Not just his.

I am tired of this. I am tired of Howard Dean being blamed because he always said we should not just pull out now that we are there.

I see no one else being attacked on this. If people are angry, they should go after the ones who took us there. Bottom line.

Wake up and see what they are doing.

[emulatorloo]

18. Karl Rove would rather see Dems divided than united. Divide and Conquer

Many of these attacks on Dems from the left, I believe, originate as Repug Dirty Tricks with the sole purpose of agitating Dem supporters and dividing them.

I am not saying that people that post this stuff on DU are "agents of Karl Rove;" but I am saying that some faux-leftist "talking points" get disseminated by repugs operatives on the net, get picked up by perhaps well meaning people and posted on discussion boards like DU.

And then the match hits the kerosene, and Dems start arguing about each other, and let GWB off the hook.

JMHO

[Dr Ron]

4. Neither

Bush and the neocons in his administration were responsible.

Dean's twisting of the IWR vote, which was not a vote to go for war, is what led to much of hte il will among Democrats. This is also wny many have responded by bringing up Dean's quotes which show how inconsistent he actually was on Iraq in the ealry days.

[tnlefty]

5. BUSH** and his PNAC pals who lied, even to the members of the

congress who voted for the IWR. As far as I am concerned the media that never really examined the lies or seemed to make much of an effort to mention the truth are in a close second for who is responsible for this whole mess.

[madfloridian]

6. Is Howard Dean to blame for the Iraq war?

Is he? Is DU becoming the place to attack him for saying what he has said for two years?

[blm]

7. Congress didn't vote for war. Blaming congress lets Bush off the hook.

Congress voted for a resolution, much like the one Dean was for, that gave guidelines to prevent war by using weapons inspectors FIRST to scope out the need for an invasion.

Dean, nor most of congress, would have voted FOR starting a war with no attempt to avoid one first.

When people blame the Congress or the IWR they are plain wrong. The IWR, if implemented HONESTLY, would have prevented an invasion.

Bush was going in with or without a resolution, based on the 1991 UN resolution, which would have been technically legal. The IWR forced him into steps he didn't want to take and in the long run gave the world a full view of Bush's duplicity the way he treated the weapons inspections.

[madfloridian]

8. Don't do that.

Don't do that right now. Yes, they knew what they were voting for.

[Dr Ron]

11. A rather absurd statement

considering Dean didn't oppose the resolution at the time.

These nonsense claims just increase division among Democrats and help let Bush off the hook. It's playing into Rove's game of forcing opponents to chose between two bad choices.

[madfloridian]

14. Lie. Not true. Twist and turn.

He did oppose it.

[Dr Ron]

16. Untrue

It is rewriting history like tihs which leads to the conflict, and criticism of Dean.

The IWR was not a vote to go to war. That's why leading Democfrats such as Clinton, Kerry, Clark, and even Dean did not oppose it at the time.

[blm]

25. Be honest. If Biden-Lugar had passed, some would be unfairly blaming Dean

just as people unfairly blame the IWR and congress today.

Pretending it isn't true doesn't change that reality one bit.

Beware whenever you let Bush off the hook and put the blame, instead, on a resolution that would have prevented war if it had been used properly.

[madfloridian]

26. I think you see my point about the attacks on Dean for staying.

Kerry does not think we should leave just now either. Fair is fair.

(Edited spelling in subject line)

[blm]

29. Of course I do. But it doesn't help to lay the blame anywhere but where it

belongs....on Bush and his decision not to adhere to the resolution which required weapons inspections before he made his determination to invade Iraq.

Blaming anyone else is a distraction that suits the purpose ONLY of BushInc.

[madfloridian]

34. Our party voted to allow him to do it.

.

[blm]

38. Then if Biden-Lugar had passed, by your standard it would be fair for

folks to blame Dean, too, because Bush would STILL invade Iraq after implementing Biden-Lugar dishonestly.

Blame the IWR and the Dems who supported it for Bush's decision to invade Iraq and you would have to blame Biden-Lugar and the Dems who supported it, because there was nothing in the Biden-Lugar bill that would have prevented Bush from making the same decision.

In a court of law, with only facts allowed, IWR would be no more culpable than Biden-Lugar. Bush would be the perpetrator for failing to implement the resolution.

[Mass]

33. Yes but those who criticize Dean (unfairly) have already

criticized Kerry for months. Criticizing Dean is new for them.

[Jacobin]

32. I love this excuse, cracks me up

Reminds me of a parent giving a completely intoxicated teenager a machine gun and a car and asking him to go to the store to get a pack of gum.

"Gee, we didn't know he was gonna wreck the car and kill people, we just told him to get a pack of gum"

That is such a lame excuse for congresscritters, who should NOT be let off the hook, because EVERYONE knew Smirky was BOUND AND DETERMINED to invade.

Over a hundred congresscritters voted against it. We were all posting here and faxing and emailing congresscritters begging them not to give Smirky the loaded gun and the car.....Kerry fucked up in a huge way voting for this assbackwards invasion and it cost him the presidency trying to dance around and do the same thing you are doing....well, gee ,we didn't know Smirk would actually DO IT....

[blm]

37. Bush was going in based on 1991 UN res. and didn't need IWR . T or F?

The IWR called for weapons inspections to be held before Bush could make determination for need to invade. T or F?

Bush halted weapons inspections prematurely when he invaded. T or F?

None of the Democratic candidates would have halted weapons inspections to hasten an invasion of Iraq. T or F?

Blame the IWR all you want and enjoy the laugh, but, don't try to pretend that the resolution caused the invasion of Iraq. It wouldn't hold up in court.

[Jacobin]

45. He got congress to give him the green light and they gave it to

him.

That stale old resolution obviously wasn't enough to do it because he asked for another one.


He wanted congress who writes the checks to say yes, and he got them to do it.

BTW, in case you haven't noticed saddam HAD gotten rid of the WMDs before the invasion. The UN was right. The UN didn't sanction the invasion. Smirky and Blair along with the congresscritters did it

[blm]

47. The 1991 resolution WAS enough. You think IWR was the green light, but

you're wrong. IWR was a RESOLUTION that had guidelines to prevent war. The 1991 UN resolution had all Bush needed to GO to war.

BTW....I guess you're forgetting that the UN did approve the guidelines of the IWR, too, so they could get their weapons inspectors back into Iraq. What they DIDN'T do was revote AFTER the weapons inspectors went in as they expected. Bush made it clear in that last week that he didn't need another vote from them as the 1991 resolution gave him all the permission he needed.

[madfloridian]

10. Again, why the attacks just on Howard Dean?

Why not Kerry, Edwards, and others who voted for it? Why not Clark, who wants to stay there as well?

If DU is becoming the place for all to do this, then I guess a whole bunch of us will have to pool our research to defend.

[karynnj]

21. All of the Democrats you list have been blamed

But it is Bush that should be blamed. Not Dean, not Kerry, not Gepheart, not Clark, not Edwards.

Blame Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld - EVEN Barney the dog, but not the Democrats.

Why? Because they did not vote to go to war for regime change. The vote was to get inspectors in, At the time, there was international pressure to end the sanctions - which were doing enormous harm - they needed to get inspectors in to verify (or eliminate) that there were no WMD and to monitor that without sanctions none were being built.

Do not assign the same guilt to the Democrats who do not deserve it. Even if you believe with all your heart that Kerry and the others are war mongers (which any reading of their statements deny), let the Republicans get the blame for this. Consider that Rove would love the left to blame the Democrats equally with Bush. If Rove wants it, it is probably wrong.

[madfloridian]

23. In a way you are making my point.

Shared responsibility or lack thereof.

[Crunchy Frog]

36. I don't suppose you've noticed this,

but all of the Democrats that you have mentioned are constantly being attacked on this board.

I don't think that's what this board should be used for, which is why I don't participate in that sort of attack, but it's something that I, as a Clark supporter, have to deal with all the time as people are constantly crashing Clark threads to level the most incredible attacks at him, or to falsely attribute positions to him that he doesn't hold.

I believe that the Kerry and Edwards supporters have the same problems. It appears to be a systemic problem on this board.

[tishaLA]

39. Damn right Crunchy

And what a sad way to try to "defend" someone you like....by trying to drag others into the argument. It's a very very sad case of "you too-ism" and one I wish we were above.

I think it's important to defend good Democrats when they need to be defended. The best way to do this, however, is not to attack other Democrats who share X position. It's sad. Just sad.

[madfloridian]

40. Yes, I notice, and I don't approve either.

However, right now, there is an apparently orchestrated effort from the corporate donor base on the right....(they don't want the grassroots base to gain power at all) and the groups on the left who oppose totally and completely staying in Iraq at all.

There are also the various candidates'supporters still sniping at one another childishly at times.

There is a fact here....and I don't like it. There are efforts to paint the chairman in a bad light for saying something quite responsible which he has always said.

Efforts like this are hurting all of us. DU should not be a playground for attacks on Clark, Dean, or anyone. It hurts us all. Threads that are obviously meant to hurt someone stay open and active far too long while good threads drop like a heavy rock.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I completely agree with you on that.

I think it hurts all of us and our entire party when people keep using this board as a forum for attacking any of our Democrats who are working hard to build the party.

I'm refusing to participate in the attacks, but will step in and defend any of our good Democrats when they are being unfairly targeted. I think that all of us should commit to doing the same.

I'm tired of coming on this board and seeing the same attacks all the time, and wish that people could save their vitriol for the Republicans.

[Mist]

12. The Iraqis-they insist

on living on top of OUR oil.:sarcasm:

[Debi]

15. Howard Dean - after all he became head of the Party Feb. 2005

So it must be his fault we're there. :sarcasm:

I thought the Party leaders said Dean's position was strictly fund raising. Now he's being blamed for their votes? Sounds like some want him to be Party whipping boy!

[tnlefty]

24. I know that you meant this sarcastically, but I think that right or

wrong it happens to be the case. There is a lot of frustration and anger among a lot of us because Bush** and the PNAC boys aren't being slapped around constantly for their lies. Dean was tagged as the hero of the anti-war left, has become the chairman and is the target for a lot of the anger and frustration so it seems.

[Debi]

27. I don't that it's going to help the Party to have Democrats attacking

Democrats. Seems angry Democrats ought to look accross the isle at the very least.

I don't agree with the authorization vote. No elected official should have trusted an administration that cheated to get in to the White House. I am most dissapointed in Gephart for leading the Congress astray and in Daschle for the Senate. But these people (who voted yes) were adults who were capable of realizing that Bush & Co. were lying.

Now, Dean, who did not agree with this authorization is the bad guy? And is being blamed over two years later? Why? Because he's the only one getting any press now that the others have gone on with their lives since their election losses? Kerry is the only one still in office and he voted for the authorization. Crazy mixed up situation.

[tnlefty]

31. I agree with you and I think that Bush** and his cronies should be

held responsible for what they've done.

I was referring more to the letter in the "Betrayal" thread and that a lot of the rage and frustration that a lot of people are feeling is being directed at Dean because he is now the chairman. I don't agree with it, but I really do sense it's a case of misdirected anger and he's the target.

I say instead of floundering around looking for a target, direct that anger at Bush**Co, the true targets, and make it stick. Beat him and his henchmen and women over the head with it until they can't take it anymore.

[madfloridian]

35. He should not be the target. He has always said that.

They need to go after the ones who can do something about it. They are trying to put Dean on the spot in the guise of "holding his feet to the fire."

Tiresome and dangerous.

[Debi]

49. Yes! BEAT THEM!!!

:spank:

Either on the ass or at the polls!! :hi:

[tnlefty]

50. May I have upside the head, then at the polls?

and then onto impeaching the lying SOBs? No resignations, no sweet deals, just justice!

[Casandra]

17. All of us!

WE are ALL to blame for this Iraq debacle. It begins with Bush's obsession, perpetuated by the the Intelligence departments, continuing into rhetoric and propoganda from the MEDIA and bought hook line and sinker by the PUBLIC!

Throw the blame around but remember we are still there. I say that if the american people wanted us out, we would be out! 'We' not only let this happen, supported it...but we RE-ELECTED those who set this train on the track!

Ugly truth...but only my opinion

[leftofthedial]

20. I couldn't disagree more

Murka suffers from learned helplessness

We are no more capable of enforcing the popular will than we are of formulating a popular will in the first place.

[leftofthedial]

19. PNAC

and everyone who has ever supported the illegal invasion and occupation or continuing the illegal invasion and occupation

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Howard Dean isn't to blame at all.

Most of the blame goes to Bush and the Republicans who carried out this policy. Some of the blame has to go to Congressional Democrats who's votes and unwillingness to question helped give legitimacy to the policy.

I'm sorry to see some misguided people lashing out at Dean for a position he has been consistent on all along.

He was one of a number of Democrats who spoke out against going in in the first place, so I have to give him credit for at least trying to prevent the war and for not helping to give legitimacy to the invasion.

[Toby109]

28. George W. Bush

Stop this in-fighting. I don't remember any Democrats making speeches suggesting that we should invade Iraq.

[Jacobin]

30. congress, bush and corporate america

including the war cheerleading 'journalists' and corporate media.

Dean spoke out against it when it wasn't popular to do so.

If Dean had been president, this would never have happened....hell if anyone reasonably bright had been in power this would never have happened.

[LittleClarkie]

41. They don't blame Howard

They blame Kerry. Silly girl. Your guy can't have ALL the blame. He must learn to share.

[madfloridian]

46. LOL

.

[bklyncowgirl]

43. That's easy, in order they are.

1. George Bush & the other war criminals in the White House who twisted the evidence to build up a pro-war hysteria.

2. Those in Congress who went along with him out of the conviction that invading Iraq was in the best interests of the U.S. or who went along out of political cowardice.

3. The mainstream media who didn't ask tough questions and went along with flag waving and patriotic fanfare.

4. The American people who by and large went along with the war out of misinformation or blind patriotism.

Who is not responsible.

Political leaders and ordinary Americans who spoke out against the war.

[Dr Fate]

44. Bush/media and foolish DEMs who apparently trusted them. n/t

n/t

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

51. George W. Bush, and no one BUT George W. Bush!

:grr: