The Bombing of Kosovo - Al Gore (related to Dean)

[wyldwolf]

This is relevant considering Gore is endorsing Howard Dean. What say the anti-Kosovo war (actually, anti-Clark, pro Dean) crowd? Does Dean decline the endoresement?:


GORE: Let’s take the case of Bosnia. Here we had the most violent and bloody war in Europe since World War II, in an area of Europe that spawned the conflicts that became World War I. A growing instability that threatened to touch off a chain reaction that would spill over border after border and lead to a much wider conflict and disorder. And at the heart of the festering wound was what they called, in the repugnant phrase they coined, ethnic cleansing. It was a hard decision for the United States to get involved. But it was in my view, clearly, the right decision.

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Gore reminded everyone that he is a Vietnam veteran and spoke of the war in Kosovo. He denounced the crimes against humanity being committed by the Serbs.

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“Ethnic cleansing” is a phrase intended to mask the stench of its true meaning: the combination of mass murder and mass expulsion. “Ethnic cleansing” means that a dictator can simply throw away the people he does not need-like so much dirt and disease. It dehumanizes along ethnic lines, so that murder and displacement become scientific, antiseptic, something other than atrocity. So I say to Milosevic: we are not fooled by your hateful rhetoric. We see through your veil of evil-and we will stop it.

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We will roll back Milosevic’s reign of terror - and we will not stop until he withdraws his forces, allows the refugees to return, and accepts an international security force to protect all Kosovars, including the Serb minority, as they work toward the self-government they once enjoyed and still deserve. If he refuses to back down, we will continue to target and degrade the military capacity he uses to repress and torture the people of Kosovo.

http://www.issues2000.org/2000/Al_Gore_Kosovo.htm

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[xultar]

1. kick n/t

[damnraddem]

2. Well, good for Gore.

Because the US intervention in Kosovo WAS the right thing to do. My criticism of Clinton was that he was way too slow to intervene in Bosnia, then Kosovo.

Oh dear -- that means that I disagree with Michael Moore on the issue!

[wyldwolf]

3. But you agree with Gore..

..who has endorsed Dean, who is the candidate of choice for most of the anti-Kosovo crowd at DU.

You would think they would recoil in disgust at the Gore endorsement.

[KaraokeKarlton]

4. What on earth are you talking about?

Dean supported our involvement in Kosovo. The criticism of Clark on Kosovo isn't about the fact that we intervened, it is on Clark's individual choices and behavior. Frankly, whether you want to admit it or not, it's very difficult for some of us to trust Clark because he DOES have some very questionable past affiliations and has made some dubious choices in who he has supported in the past. That's the reality and no matter how much you or any other Clark supporter protests that many feel as we do...it's NOT going to change the fact that some people just don't feel we can trust Clark with that much power and influence. Trying to change that is the equivalent of banging your head up against the wall in an attempt to make a headache go away...it doesn't help, is counterproductive and just hurts your circumstances worse.

[wyldwolf]

5. I'm talking about this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=175426&mesg_id=175426

From a Dean supporter who is obviously annoyed that Moore endorsed Clark after Moore condemned the Kosovo war.

On the opposite side of the coin, Gore endorsed Dean and Gore was very much for the Kosovo war and how it was executed.

And if I might add, whether you want to admit it or not, it's very difficult for some of us to trust DEAN because he DOES have some very questionable past affiliations and has made some dubious choices in who he has supported in the past. That's the reality and no matter how much you or any other DEAN supporter protests that many feel as we do...it's NOT going to change the fact that some people just don't feel we can trust DEAN with that much power and influence. Trying to change that is the equivalent of banging your head up against the wall in an attempt to make a headache go away...it doesn't help, is counterproductive and just hurts your circumstances worse.

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. Imitation is the highest form of flattery

n/t

[Democrats unite]

8. Clark & Kosovo was nothing but spin

you can look at posts just today & see it's still spinning.

[w4rma]

14. I agree. I'm pro-Dean and pro-Kosovo war. (n/t)

[HFishbine]

6. If you want to tie together Candidate and Endorser like that

Then I'm very disturbed that Kerry would support the installation of the Confederate flag on the SC state house.

Or does Kerry decline Hollings' endorsement?

[wyldwolf]

7. Actually you missed the first volley..

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=175426&mesg_id=175426

[bushclipper]

9. If some Dean supporters condemn Moore for endorsing Clark based on...

...his prior position on the Kosovo war, shouldn't these same Dean supporters reject Al Gore's endorsement of Dean based on his full approval of the Kosovo war?

[funky_bug]

10. Likewise

If Jimmy Carter, Martin Sheen and Rob Reiner are all on the NRA's blacklist, would they support Dean if they thought he was the NRA's golden boy?

Scenario 1: Dean is NOT the NRA poster child... it's just freep-hype, and readily dismissed.

Scenario 2: Dean IS the NRA's bag-o-chips...this goes to show that our party inherently understands the concept of "no one is perfectly going to agree with me all the time." (ah that all of us at DU would take that to heart.)

Scenario 3: No one gives a flyin' monkeys ass about gun control, because we have to daily deal with the issue of Bush control.

[debsianben]

11. Good Point

Of course, Howard Dean not only supported NATO's campaign of indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in the Serbia/Kosovo intervention, he also supported the first Gulf War, the war in Afghanistan, and, well, basically to the best of my knowledge every military intervention in the three decades separating Vietnam from Iraq. So Dean supporters have no right to get upset at Clark supporters over Kosovo. That's ridiculous. Kucinich supporters would have that right, since at least their guy voted against the Kosovo war in Congress. (I'm not sure what Sharpton's position was.) And any one who cares about logical consistency should get upset at Micheal Moore's endorsement of Clark given his earlier clear-sighted opposition to the Kosovo war.

The fact is that Deanies, Clarkies, and others don't serve either basic rationality or their cause well by pretending that the role of American imperialism on the world stage is some kind of faucet that's simply turned on and off depending on whether the POTUS is an elephant or a donkey, that the day Bush was inaggurated in January '01, the US suddenly went from being a "benevolent superpower" to being a dangerous empire. The fact is that the same set of arguments used to justify Kosovo was recycled in Iraq, and it helped set a precedent for the alleged virtues of bombing the hell out of "rogue states" and killing thousands of civilians being somehow justifiable in the cause of democracy and human rights.

[meow mix]

13. but he's military, and thus eeeeeeevil!

people are sick in the head when they post that

its another form of bigotry,
against military and military leaders.

i just ignore it because theres no way in hell you can change thier minds. their logic is not functional so why bother..

[debsianben]

15. "military and military leaders"

You might want to be a bit more careful about lumping together "military and military leaders," i.e. actual GI's sent off to die in wretched colonialist adventures like Iraq and the generals (I'm sure you know who I mean) who see them as disposable cannon fodder.