Opening discussion of generalized web problem of 'pit-bull trolls'

[cloudythescribbler]

I'm looking for a few good progressives to check out these sites and examine the comments and verbal tactics of rightwing 'pit-bull trolls' who tend to drive away any kind of even minimally outspoken progressives. I would also like to know of other sites that are at least as important as these (National Ledger ain't exactly on a level with DU, to say the least) where this is going on, and what their URL is. I think that it is an issue that should be confronted, at least by a handful of progressives. It is not a waste of time, as the results can be taken into other fora and become an issue of the possibility of democracy flourishing on the web. If progressives can't have unhindered access in practice to discussion fora where there are other than mainly progressives, that is a problem.
There should be ways of countering flaming as a systematic tactic, even in open fora let alone at DU.

******
The general problem on the web, much worse at other discussion sites than at DU itself, of what I call pit-bull trolls, should be addressed by progressives with at least the verve that rightwingers have in promoting it. They seem to police various discussion fora, and be so vicious and shamelessly bigoted and flaming as to tend to drive anyone with what they consider a 'liberal' view (and failing to make any distinction between a liberal and a progressive or leftist) from the discussion, especially if the progressive wants to assert anything of interest.
I have seen how others have been driven from these fora this way, while I have stayed to face long chains of responses with ad-hominem attacks etc.

Let me cite two concrete examples, one a largely conservative dominated forum (National Ledger, at http://www.nationalledger.com/news/unmod/index.cgi)
and the other a forum with many progressives, Open Democracy, at http://www.opendemocracy.net/home/index.jsp for the home page.

First the openDemocracy case. In discussing the papal selection, I advocated, in very moderate terms, that authentic progressives, both Catholic and non, should pressure the Catholic Church to place at least as much emphasis IN POLITICAL PRACTICE on their concerns for the culture of life when it comes to the environment, peace and social justice as insistently as they are with abortion. With remarks expressing such sentiments as relief that the 'French Jew, Lustiger' didn't get the job, and a pit-bull troll defending the denial that that statement was antiSemitic, the ad hominem attacks poured like wine, along with the sophistry, the flaming etc. I was persistent, but most people are not likely to be. Indeed, I can be pretty powerful in my own criticism when I choose, while remaining substantive, such as: http://www.opendemocracy.net/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=87&threadID=44311&tstart=0
But in any event, the ability of those who avoid substantive argument -- I like a good argument, like I am starting with the person who has already responded to that post -- by chasing away progressives is a problem.

Another case is the predominantly conservative National Ledger. Their largely conservative forum (see web cite above) is crawling with rightwing pit-bull trolls. Incidentally, I haven't noticed progressives behaving this way in fora against rightwingers, but if and when and where it does occur, progressives should oppose it.
But I would encourage others to visit the sites I have mentioned and just look around for the phenomena I describe -- you can't miss it at National Ledger! And then respond effectively and discuss the problem here as well

[havocmom]

1. If particular sites tolerates the behavior and it offends you, don't go

to those sites. "Pit Bull Troll" have the right of free speech too. Forum rules either allow it or stop it as is their right at their sites.

Can't really have a hunting party for a troll shoot & barbecue now can we?

Look at it this way, if they are doing things to piss people off enough to make them give up posting, it means we are doing our job. When they try to get progressive posters to give up, they are doing so because those posters are damaging the spin doctors. Wear that as a badge of honor.

Don't let the bastards get ya down.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. Nolite te Bastardes Carborundorum!!

"Don't let the bastards get you down"

It's posted above my desk here at work. :)

[havocmom]

4. Thank you. A linguist I am not. English gives me enough trouble.

Can't remember that phrase in Latin for the life of me. At my age, one would think Latin should be my native tongue!

I shall print it out and hang it on the wall. Thanks again. Oh, how I love evilDers! Somebody always has the info one seeks.

[babylonsister]

12. "At my age, one would think Latin should be my native tongue!"

Love it! :rofl:

[annabanana]

5. just "not going" isn't addressing the problem..

There are many heavy use sites that are dedicated to hobbies, or movies, or video game discussion sites where the discussions sometimes run into current affairs. Rather than there being an actual discussion about whatever the subject was, there's an immediate, savage RW attack. Discussion over, and no one ever goes into "curiosity mode" on that site, ever again.

It's like a group of a few hundred people sittin around, fishing. Earle says he's afraid of getting drafted.. a goon squad shows up and drowns him in the lake. The rest of the fishermen get the point.

It is chilling and gives everyone the idea that all are in agreement with the goons.

[havocmom]

7. Fighting with idiots is time not well spent

Better to spend time at a site which zaps 'em so you can pt efforts into exposing lies.

I know they have to be dealt with and I have done some battles here with moles and trolls. But they get zapped. I won't waste my time at sites which cater to their behavior.

[cloudythescribbler]

23. but that approach doesn't work

No, that approach doesn't work.
Trolls will drive people who engage in political discussion away from nonpolitical sites and outspoken progressives from mixed sites. I agree that if a site is ONLY rightwingers, it is a waste of time. But whereever there is one and especially more than one progressive getting hassled, you can be sure that any ideological outsider is being driven from the site. That is something that must be challenged in the cybersphere as in the physical world. Just look at some of the anecdotes people relate at this site.

[blondeatlast]

10. It's occurred on support sites for people with medical problems, even.

One of the reasons I thought we should have a "safe" forum here at DU, and bless Admins hearts, we do.

These are nasty damn people, and something ought to be done.

[cloudythescribbler]

24. think about the cataclysmic importance of what you just reported

That means that -- and you should specify WHICH sites, and even reprint some egs of the nastiness here for discussion -- throughout the cybersphere, freedom of discussion for authentic progressives is under threat. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT PROGRESSIVE DISCOURSE NOT BE GHETTOIZED INTO A FEW VENUES WHERE WE PREACH TO THE CHOIR. This issue must be brought to much wider attention, and highlighted.

[cloudythescribbler]

22. exactly the right analysis

Yes, that's exactly the point. Progressives should NOT intimidate, but we must fight back intimidation in every forum.

SNCC activists risked their lives for this principle in the Civil Rights movement. That's the only way you can get positive change is by standing up to that kind of bullying effectively and in numbers.

And this, a little drivel over the internet should be a piece of cake for progressives to confront, if we have even a minimum of gumption and organization

[Warpy]

2. Pit bull trolls drove me off every mixed board I was on

because I wouldn't back down. They got groups together to target my ISP with complaints that I was spamming and sending unsolicited porn. Naturally, my ISP management was a little wiser than they were, and they didn't make a dent, but in the meantime, they started signing my email up for all the sites they claimed I was spamming. I eventually had to change my ISP because of it.

These people are just plain unadulterated evil. They are petty, mean spitirited, and vindictive. They absolutely cannot stand dissent of any type. In real life, I can call the cops and file formal complaints about stalking and do a few other things to make their lives difficult. It's harder to prove online stalking, so I just avoid the places they dominate.

For now, I think that's probably the best policy. They need us more than we need them. Boards will start shutting down for lack of activity when they don't discipline the trolls, and eventually they'll all start to get a little wiser. Until then, forget it.

[billbuckhead]

6. I think we have that problem here with gun "rights" extremists

Paid rightwingers search sites all over the internet to bully people who bring up even moderate positions on political topics.

[havocmom]

8. We also have some pretty hard core, life long liberals who use guns

:hi:

[T Town Jake]

13. Just because your nonsense is routinely...

...held up to the light of day and shown for the silliness it is down in the Gungeon, doesn't mean that those who do so are "gun 'rights' extremists" or trolls of any kind.

On edit: you're right, you're not Benchy. But I get you two mixed up, the rhetoric is so similar.

[billbuckhead]

14. Here's proof from the gungeon, typical neocon behavior

I'm not McBenchley, I don't make fun of people names and I don't tell people to grow up. This type of behavior is all over the internet from the gun "enthusiasts" and sure is similar to the other types of neocons who think all power comes from the end of a gun.

[T Town Jake]

15. So let me be clear: you're saying I'm a neo-con?

(n/t)

[billbuckhead]

16. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

If you believe that, then you are a neocon. Sorry.

[T Town Jake]

17. Chairman Mao said that, not T Town Jake...

...and I've never stated anything even remotely similar to that, ever.

I thank you in advance for your apology.

[billbuckhead]

18. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck........

Dick Cheney owns over 30 machine guns.

[T Town Jake]

21. Now there's a crashing non-sequitur...

...how do you go from a quote of Chairman Mao's (mis-attributed to me) to Dick Cheney owning 30 machine guns? What does one have to do with the other? Do you even read what you type before you hit "Post message"?

"Neo-con" behavior, indeed..

[billbuckhead]

25. All RBKAer's and neocons believe all power comes from the

end of a gun. Like NRAer's Dick Cheney, Tom DeLay, Ted Nugent, Grover Norquist,Zell Miller, ad nauseum.

[cloudythescribbler]

27. lets try to limit the back-and-forth flaming

[SpiralHawk]

9. They are paid BushCo propagandists

Black ops. The usual shit. But this, too, shall pass.

[cloudythescribbler]

20. WRONG ATTITUDE

No, these things don't pass without people making that happen. By the way, one of the pit-bull trolls managed to find out about a posting I did at DU within less than 20 minutes of my posting it, in response to the Eisenhower quote; I had pointed out that I got a torrent of abuse at NationalLedger.com forum for the very same quote, and this guy from that forum posted the quote shortly thereafter and said 'cloudy is trying to bring the rain' So these people are policing this VERY SITE!!!!!

Never assume that que sera sera. The rightwing doesn't and that's how they get what they want (plus they have the state elite and all its underground repression on their side).

[cloudythescribbler]

19. Well, that is a VERY interesting and important story

That is a VERY interesting and important experience. I would be interested in certain particulars -- were the people's email addresses available? You should let a wider audience know at least what site this was and who the people were. Maybe there is some way you could post, as you can anonymously on Eschaton, with this info.

I disagree that backing away is the best answer. Progressives should not be ghettoized so easily -- and those with that experience should form a group here at DU, and should go out and support each other in these sites. OpenDemocracy is a site of great importance, and most posters there are NOT trolls, unlike at National Ledger.

Do NOT underestimate the overall importance of this issue on the web as for its implications for democracy. It is something of GRAVE importance at the macro level --- just as when you see a handful of voters driven from one polling station in Ohio by the manufactured long lines, this is a red flag that must NOT be ignored.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. I had one pit bull troll dig up my personal information and post it

on a public blog (fortunately, the owner removed it), and then follow me to my private e-mail address and start haranguing me there.

I went back to the blog and complained and announced that I was blocking all mail from that person and from anyone else who followed me to my private e-mail.

I didn't post after that, but all the trolls had a great time telling one another that I was another "typical liberal coward" who couldn't stand up to their brilliant arguments.

That was the last time I posted on an unmoderated board.

BTW, none of the other trolls came after me, since I'd made it clear anyone who did would get blocked immediately.

[warrens]

11. LibertyPost and FreedomUnderground

if they still exist. They've got the worst of the worst.

[cloudythescribbler]

37. do you have a URL for that? And some specifics?

[cloudythescribbler]

26. I'm still looking for a few people who want to pursue this issue actively

I am still looking for a few people interested in pursuing this issue actively, although this isn't like a commitment to huge time and resources as in a movement organization. But if you would like to report on specific URLs of websites where RW pit-bull trolls are intimidating people, especially in NONpolitical sites, or even would like a few people to join you in some fight you are having with this ilk, feel free to send a message to my inbox.

This is something about which progressives need to respond, sooner or later. We cannot let people ghettoize us out of mixed sites and progressive views from 'nonpolitical' venues!!!!!!!

RSVP

[annabanana]

28. I'm pulling this back up front

because I think you're right. A good start might be to post specifics when you get chased off a 'non-political' forum. Put some of the specifics of the attack, and a link in the post.

If we can get some DUers to "poke back" here and there we could force a retreat. (Of course, volume is a concern)

[cloudythescribbler]

33. great minds think alike, and even me

[Beacho]

29. Good timing, Here's a site that provides an example

of what you're talking about.

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewforum.pbs?f=5


This is NOWs BBS. Just look around and you'll find some freaks that are absolutely out of their heads, driving people out of discussion after discussion.


This should be a board regularly visited by DUers, IMO

[cloudythescribbler]

32. very interesting.

This is very interesting. I think that more is called for. Maybe there should be a small ongoing group to deal with the 'pit bull troll' problem on the web, and people could report this sort of thing to the group, and people from the group could go out and address it. It may not be the most important political 'battlefront' in the world, but it IS important.

In the particular case of the NOW website, if you could summarize it with a little more detail for everyone, that would be helpful. It is much easier when trying to address a problem if you really get the info on all the nuances. Sure, summarize it at the top in a paragraph or two, but I would really like to see better overall details on this viewed by everyonee. Harpy's recounting of what was done to him, so he had to change his ISP was really valuable. In political organizing, the nitty gritty really is where the GOLD is.

[MsTryska]

30. Well i don't know.....

i spend a lot of time debating "pit-bull trolls" at my favorite haunts.


I've jsut never given them much credence, or allowed them to "drive me away" from the topic at hand.


But i tend to be thick-skinned so insutls and ad hominem attacks roll off my back. If the forum is moderated in such a way that ad hominem attacks are allowed - i give as good as i get, and finally - i'm as good as any put-bill out there - considering pit-bulls, grab on, lock their jaws and hold on until the limb is severed.


I can be a brick-wall when necessary - and soemtimes have gotten to the point where other posters cry uncle. it's best to do that without insulting anyone at all, despite people insulting you.

I can't say that this is my method so much as my natural debating style. I see debate like a chess-game.

[cloudythescribbler]

34. the problem with that approach

I approached the issue that very way at tNL (the National Ledger).
The problem is, when you are alone, even with one other person, and especially if it's three against one (and "everyone" thinks you are a jerk), you tend more easily to get dragged down to the level of the attackers. Even if you don't descend even halfway to their level, there's still a problem. But when you have even three, it seems is sufficient at any one forum, you really never have to do that nearly as much. And you can influence the outcome of discussion in a way that only one cannot.

[cloudythescribbler]

31. Fascinating follow up on this post -- a threat and a banning from tNL

The rightwing pitbulls were none too pleased to find that I was, in their words, "trying to bring the rain" to their tiny freeper site.
Actually, real dialogue between rw and progressives is good, if only to sharpen thinking and expression (but not following troll 'advice' in most instances).

So a DUer, "Lumberjack Jeff" shows up, and they are at least at first, and it appears, though it took some extra effort on LJs part, still maintaining their relatively best behavior with him. They probably figure that if they try to go after someone with LOTS of posts who specifically came from DU, they would get into a losing fight (the mentality of all bullies)

So then one of the posters THREATENS me, to attack my ISP, as has been reported below to progressives (see Harpy's post) in many venues

Here's a cc of the threat issue:

Here's an interesting political situation.
Many DUers have found that at many sites, including places for people with medical problems to have a support group, or non-political sites where people raise issues of a progressive nature, what I term 'pit bull trolls' drive them away, thus tending to ghettoize progressives.

Here, from a group of such (who complain bitterly about how DU excludes overt rightwingers, but who were able to find a posting of mine here within 20 minutes without my having mentioned it) comes from one a threat.

Here's the URL citation:http://www.nationalledger.com/news/unmod/index.cgi?fram... ;read=1151

And here is the threat. Note that this is a pretty clear cut case of a pattern of anyone expressing liberal views being trashed, and worse. Then when one DUer showed up, and they knew it was as a result of a posting of mine here, which they had reprinted and said "cloudy is trying to bring the rain", they have been on their best behavior with the one DUer who showed up, unlike with anyone epxressing progressive views up until then. (This is a practice common within left circles of copperheads -- they will create an artificial contrasting case to suggest that the target of their attack, and not they are the problem. This happens on WBAI all the time.)

But here is the threat, verbatim, which I emailed to the site managers. Since National Ledger is rightwing themselves, I doubt that they'll care, but who knows?:

" ...
Go back to the DU and brag about how you came, you saw, yada..yada..

Now.. if you would really like to see my skills behind the keyboard I'll be happy to show you much more than finding your vapid postings at the DU.

That's not a threat by the way (since threats are against the rules) it's a promise.

By the way.. Just an FYI.. AOL is not the most secure ISP on the planet. "
-----------------------------------------------------
OK, so I reported it to the site managers. I'm sorry I didn't keep a cc of the original letter, but it was polite, and warned them of the general problem.
Next thing I know, although others are posting comments in response to mine, or about me, when I try to post it persistently says "Site closed". Hmmmmm.

So I sent them an email. Here's a c/c:

Is the forum closed or just to me? Since I have seen it closed, new comments have been posted, including in reactions, unfair in my view to be sure, to my comments.
I would make the following assertions, sometimes summarized in my posts:

1) I began in a spirit of complete civility. Throughout I have conducted myself always with at least greater civility than those who were flaming me. Just because I brought this matter to your attention, when one of these particularly mean people then chose to threaten me, I think it is wrong to ban the victim as well. My first postings were since May 10 so it wouldn't be too hard to research if you cared.

2) I am reporting to you not just an individual problem. I have seen a pattern, indeed one of my postings discusses it as widespread throughout the web (you might check that posting out) where progressives get driven by such practices as a pattern from "mixed" websites such as this, by rightwingers. I am not aware of any instance, although there may be some, of similar patterns of progressives hounding rightwingers.
(I do not refer to people responding at least to some degree, to meanness with sharpness of their own). I have noticed a number of other progressive voices treated uncivilly as a pattern at the site, indeed even where they were bending over backwards to be friendly and civil. You might look at the (as of now) one thread started by self-consciously civil Lumberjack Jeff and the response he got -- and in his case alone the rightwing flamers were being on their BEST behavior. Those RWs engaged in this practice are still free to post.
3) You really should dialogue with ANYONE that you ban. In this instance, the tendency is for anyone who isn't RW to be driven from the site. I have never tried nor ever done anything that would tend to drive anyone from the site, and your pattern of punishing the victim as well as maybe (one of) the perpetrators clearly would indicate a desire similar to the flamers to discourage "squealers" and have a relatively homogenous RW site.
---------------------------------------------

NOW I KNOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD SAY -- WHO gives a flying f*** about this two-bit site? But then, who cares if some little town discriminates on the basis of race? or whatever? The point is that we are dealing with a web-wide problem, and the issue here has been joined. I am sure there are other sites where this could just as easily be done if this is not considered an ideal venue. But it's good to test out skills and strategies in less important venues before going on to the more important ones. I would be interested in both advice, and especially in individuals who are interested in trying to address the problem in this particular case.

I think this problem of pit-bull trolls is a major one, that involves no less than the ghettoization of progressives in discussion sites on the web. I think that a list of major arenae for serious discussion should be developed, and more done about it.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cloudythescribbler]

36. capn mandrake -- please keep in touch (personally)

If you're going to The National Ledger, please let it be known that I was banned after receiving and reporting on a threat

You might also PLEASE keep in touch with me personally. I have LOTS to discuss,

but of course keep us regularly abreast with progress reports.
We need more like u

[cloudythescribbler]

38. Further update about site discussed in terms of problem

The main website discussed in terms of this problem, the National Ledger, responsed to my email, reprinted in an earlier post, with the following letter, extremely revealing of the attitudes of those MANAGING the websites where this kind of practice goes on. (Their letter is followed by my response). Readers should know that they are basically a publication roughly similar in perspective to National Review. Note the implicit attitude, on a board only a few weeks old, to someone who has brought this SYSTEMATIC pattern, of which they may or may not have been aware, to their attention -- that if you don't like what we do, have a nice life. Is this the kind of response DU would send to someone with a similar communication to its management, I wonder?
------------------------------

Dear Cloudy,
We at tNL appreciate your time and the fact that you used some of it to email us your comments.

In the interest of civility all parties involved in discourse on the message forum have been denied access. We do not take sides on any matter and when a problem arises, we deal with it by removing those involved. We are not detectives nor do we wish to become investigators.

The tNL forum is our property and we reserve the right to deny service to anyone we feel in our discretion is a disruption. We make no guarantees in regards to the forum, it's availability or accessibility. The tNL community is new (being only a few weeks old) and is only a supplement to our service.

If for some reason you feel you have been treated unfairly or singled out for any reason.. it is regretful and we offer our sincere apologies and wish you all the best life has to offer.

Sincerely,

Marc Centanni
*****************
My response:
according to your policy, anyone who complains, or "rats" for any reason, gets banned. That doesn't make any sense at all. It would mean that no one would ever have any incentive to report abusive practices involving themselves.

One possible solution is to have a moderated board, at least for anyone who you would consider questionable enough to ban, and then only when the person as demonstrated their willingness (or new willingness) to be civil would they be allowed direct access to the board.

I have seen new messages posted, so only some have been removed.

If the board has been around for only a few weeks, then for about 50% of its lifetime, the practices I reported to you have been going on, and would be obvious to anyone who followed the contents of the board. Of course, the site is proprietary, and I haven't suggested anything about the legal rights of those managing it. But it seems odd that you would happily let the things I describe go on for several weeks, and then ban someone who complains within a day of hearing any complaint.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cloudythescribbler]

41. what are these messages that keep getting deleted?