I'm crying while I write this...my marriage, my friendships and the

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

relationships I have with my family are on the line.

I'm making a stand, goddamnit...the f**king Downing St. memo is the final straw, combined with Conyers's inspirational stand.

We need to line up behind the public figures who are willing to take the hit for justice.

You know how gwb said, at one time, you're either for me or against me? Well, I'm throwing down the gauntlet. I'm not standing by and watching our country go down the tubes. I'm insisting that those who talk the talk, also walk the walk. And, if you can't even talk the talk, well f** U.

My husband, of all people, is freaking out. He's thinking I'll lose my job or get us on some SS list that will keep us from flying.

My friends are about to find out that I have little tolerance for non-involvement or apathy. I predict that relationships will suffer.
My RW family members and I will be standing toe to toe...those relationships will suffer,too, perhaps irrevocably.

I have lost patience for the quiet majority. We need to speak up and f**king deal with the consequences.

I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it anymore, although I grieve the loss of personal connections that will inevitably occur. MKJ

[William769]

1. Follow your heart & damn all others.

You might be surprised who stands with you.

[TomClash]

11. I'd say you'd be VERY surprised.

And that is coming from the belly of the beast.

[MADem]

80. And if they don't, well, they weren't real friends in the first place

May as well find out now, rather than later.

[sarcasmo]

2. I have cut off family functions with my RW nut job in laws.

My wife still doesn't quite get why as she is brain washed just like the rest of them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. I thought my husband was totally on the same page

As me, but he's really skittish about openly talking about the way gwb and others have f**ked over our country.


That is the hardest thing for me...having my husband telling me,"don't say this to the wrong people, it could cost you your job."

I can't do that anymore...I HAVE to speak up and, hopefully, he'll support me. MKJ

[Nite Owl]

15. He's scared but

not speaking up wasn't that the very problem with the rise of Hitler and the Nazi's? We can't be quiet,we can't let it come to that. It would be interesting to read about how those early Americans felt before and at the beginning of the Revolutionary War. It couldn't have been easy, they fought for freedom and it's our responsibility to not let it go.

[merbex]

23. When I think of the American Rev (I live south of Boston ) those people

had it tough. No modern conveniences that we take for granted and much like the Civil War pitting neighbor against neighbor,relative against relative.

I don't know whether this is true but I heard somewhere that people in the Colonies(Mass. anyway) painted their chimneys white with a black band around the top to signify a Tory household. Or it could be opposite - American. I know in my hometown there are many chimneys like that from the Rev. period and many plain also. It must have been very difficult.

My hometown is the hometown of Gen Bejamin Lincoln who accepted the sword of surrender at Yorktown because Corwallis wouldn't give it to Washington. Cornwallis' aide tried to give it the French who signalled -no give it to Washington. Washington wouldn't accept it from Cornwallis' aide so Washington designated Gen. Lincoln to accept it

We all had to learn this as children growing up here

[uppityperson]

21. It can be scary, speaking up

Jobs can be lost. Friendships can be lost. Jobs can be changed and so can friendships. If no one speaks out, the situation continues to deteriorate. There are enough of us that they cannot silence us all. We have to try and it will get scarier if we don't.

[BlueIris]

38. I've had to cut off family and friends who aren't involved.

Just too frustrating.

I know it hurts. But you have to do what you have to do--how will you be able to live with yourself otherwise? That's just the way I feel about my own decisions throughout the last two years, anyway.

[realFedUp]

3. just give them the facts

you don't even have to raise your voice
or your fist.

[suziedemocrat]

61. Exactly - I have FINALLY been able to have conversations with RWers.

Instead of angrily pointing out how awful the RW is - I act like a stupid, confused girl. (Hoosiers seem to like women who act stupid!) I say - isn't funny how GWB is so pro-war, and yet he went out of his way to avoid Vietnam. Or - isn't it weird that we still can't find Osama Bin Laden? Or - isn't it odd that they want us to support the tropps, yet they won't armor their vehicles? Or - I wonder why the WH was so surprised by 9/11 when Rice had a brief on her desk titled "Bin Laden determined to strike U.S.", and they had one of the hijackers in custody? Or - isn't it odd the polls leading up to the election and even on the night of the election predicted a clear Kerry win, yet Bush won? Or - isn't it odd that some people could walk right in and vote, but in black and college neighborhoods people had to wait hours to vote? Or - isn't it odd that Republicans are so against Gay marriage - yet you find out there are all these closeted homosexuals in the Republican party? Or - (and this is my pet peeve) I wonder why Laura was never charged with involuntary manslaughter when she ran a stop sign and killed her ex-boyfriend who was going throught the intersection in another car? Do you know she didn't attend his funeral? I just act like I like the Republicans - but I am SOOOO CONFUSED!!! It can be fun at times.


I said these in a post yesterday - but a RWer was complaining about what a liar Clinton was. I pointed out that Bush and his admin lied about the Weapons of Mass Destruction - yet I was somehow able to do it with a soft sing-song voice that was not threatening. Another time a cousin was saying how Republicans make better investors, and I pointed out it was surprising how many in the stock market were Democrats like Warren Buffett. Both times they did not believe me and I just smiled and hoped they would at least look into it. Fox news has nothing but arguing - and these RWers LOVE to argue. But - if we want them to change their tune - we have to rise above that.

I've stopped talking to many friends because of this election. I could almost excuse people for voting for Bush in 2000. But I feel that anyone who still supports Bush, knowing what we know today, is complicit in his crimes. But - most of these people only watch Fox news. They don't even get close to the full story about how awful Bush is. That same RWer who complained about Clinton said he didn't want to vote for Bush - but Kerry was too awful. I know he thinks Kerry was awful because of the very effective smear campaign. So - Maybe there is some hope for some of these people??????

[realFedUp]

70. yyyeeeaaahhhhhh

good responses. :-)

[powergirl]

78. I USE YOUR SAME APPROACH

I like to act like a total rube. Down her in TEXAS RWs love listening to a nice Texas girl talk all stupid. I love playing dumb. For example, I was in line at CITGO paying for my gas. The dude in front of me was bitchin' about gas prices, etc. I noticed John Wayne had a "W" sticker on his car. So, I'll say, thank goodness Bush is our prez, because those gas prices under Clinton were CRAZY. I love it! :evilgrin:

[PuraVidaDreamin]

4. Stand by your integrity

You won't be able to look at yourself it you don't.

Sorry that doesn't make anything easier for you right now.

My husband and kids call me the crazy lady. Hubby couldn't believe I blew off a mountain bike ride to take the kids to a Unitarian church and listen to the minister talk about how to file CO status, then stand outside for a couple of hours near traffic holding up Impeach Bush signs. Blew off a barbeque also. Not making people happy.

Oh well.

Thinking of you.

[CountAllVotes]

5. is America worth it?

This you must ask yourself. How much do you love your country? My name is on that petition too and I really do not care!

To hell with these people that care to bury their heads in the sand waiting for hell to completely break loose!

This is serious business and it is no game.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

:kick:

[ET Awful]

6. There are times when you have to obey

a call which is the highest of all, i.e. the voice of conscience even though such obedience may cost many a bitter tear, and even more, separation from friends, from family, from the state to which you may belong, from all that you have held as dear as life itself. For this obedience is the law of our being."

- Mohandas Ghandi

[Cha]

8. We are seeing more and more

of this kind of patriotic attitude coming from people who are fed up and aren't going to take it anymore!

:patriot:

Good Luck in everything that comes your way. I love that this is coming from a Coloradoan.

[llmart]

9. Good for you!

Too many people, including many here on DU, are great at typing on the computer and flapping their jaws, but when it comes down to the hard work of standing up tall for principles they shirk their duty. There are many ways of being a patriot and hero/heroine. Standing up for what you believe in even while losing long lasting relationships is sometimes much more difficult than we think.

I've seen people here at DU type things and then say, "well, I'm afraid to do such and such because I might be watched by the FBI." I say, who the hell cares? Let them watch me. Let them pull me out of line at the airport. (They haven't yet.) Let my Repug husband and his Repug family tsk tsk my behavior all they want, I will go to my grave being true to myself first and foremost and I hope you will too.

[Inspired]

10. Stand by me

I am with you. Today I started a fight with my husband over the war. I was watching George Stephanapolous and the 'in memoriam' part of his TV show. When he got to the 20+ US soldiers that died in Iraq, I lost it. Husband likes Bush - I barely like husband.

I could shuck this marriage in a heartbeat. I just need someone to tell me it is OK to do so over politics.

20+ dead...ho hum...who cares? Where are the protesters? Where are the peace marches? What is going on with this country?

[CountAllVotes]

14. maybe after another 200,000 are dead

The people might begin to awaken.

I don't blame you one bit. I couldn't stand being married to a puke for anything. I'd have never married one to begin with though.

Where are the protestors and peace marchers? Where have they gone? Do the young people today give a damn? Perhaps not, not until they get a letter in the mail saying UNCLE SAM WANTS YOU.

:(

:kick:

[Nite Owl]

18. It isn't politics

these are not mere disagreements we have with the neocons it's a whole different philosophy, it's the whole direction of the world and our country for generations to come. We are at a turning point in history and if we go the wrong road like they are trying to take us our lives and most of all the lives of our children and grandchildren will not be anything like ours have been.

Best to you in whatever decision you make and you are welcome here at DU.

[unhappycamper]

26. Want to see some pro-peace rallies?

Believe it or not, there were a TON of events through out this country the weekend of March 19 ~ 20. Take a look at:
http://iterapi.com/

http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml
is also a good source of news. They had plenty of additional coverage that weekend.

Any decisions regarding life changes need to come from within. Follow your heart. Your internal compass is usually pretty accurate.

BTW, welcome to DU! :hi:

on edit: to add welcome

[Arugula Latte]

72. Inspired --

First, welcome to DU!

Second, it IS okay to get out of this marriage over politics, because politics reflects who you both are at your cores. It is about the things you value. It is about respect. How can you respect someone who likes Bush? There is clearly a major character flaw there. Ask yourself if you want to go through life year after year with someone you do not respect.

I think you deserve better.

[Debs]

79. I will say this

I could easily have married a person of another race, or religion. There is no way I would even have a second date with a rabid conservative. I could never respect them enough to maintain a functional relationship. Lack of empathy is the root of evil, and conservative politics is all about justifying a lack of empathy. There is a reason that human and humane have the same root.

[MADem]

81. Politics may just be the straw that broke the camel's back

Usually, it isn't politics alone, but politics is one of the places where differences become defined, and it is a safe place to VOCALIZE them.

Get out a piece of paper, write STAY on the left side, GO on the right, and start listing the good and the bad about the relationship, and reasons for staying (financial security?) and going (sanity?). If you get to the end of the page and it is all bad, you need to move on. If it is about fifty-fifty, there may be some room to work with it.

[calimary]

85. What's so galling is how the 16-hundred-plus deaths from Iraq are

only those we know about who actually died in action, rather than later, in some hospital, where they don't have to be "counted" as war dead. Fouled on a technicality.

I was listening to a speech at the VA cemetery on Saturday during the Flag Placement ceremonies, and a Marine was recalling a friend of his who died in Iraq. It also made me think of Pat Tillman, and how everything about how he died turned out to be a lie. Like, even, with Private Lynch and the "firefight" she had with the "enemy" before being "captured." And I found myself wondering if the man being eulogized was being lied about, too, to cover something up for somebody else's benefit. The poor guy isn't even allowed a dignified memorial, because these bastards have trafficked in so much deception and hypocrisy. Just awful. I never wanted suspicion to be one of the feelings I instinctively feel when my "government" is speaking about something. Especially something as critical as this.

Awful. There are people I don't seek out anymore, either. Can't take the brainless bush-worship or the radical republi-CON-ism. Just more than I can bear. File it under the heading "Life's Too Short." I try to stay open to the possibility that, yes, souls CAN be saved, and maybe these folks have enough mental accuity or discernment that they'll eventually start seeing through some of this. Maybe. I'll be there if/when that day comes, but I won't hold my breath for it. Dem's de breaks, I guess (sigh). Sorry for your predicament. We've all had a taste of it, large or small, real or merely dreaded. Hang in there. You're not alone. But at the end of the day, it's yourself you have to live with.

[formercia]

12. I'm with you

Time to find out who the posers are around here. How many of you are willing to put your family,friends and job on the line for justice?

Don't everyone take a step back at once....

[asjr]

19. I do not know of any posers here unless it is a freeper troll. I have

already lost "friends" over my conscience. Doesn't matter to me. If they can't take me as I am they can find someone else. My family does agree with me and we have many discussions and try to be as active as we can.

[formercia]

22. I know it's difficult

I lost my family years ago opposing Bush 41...

[chemp]

57. maybe it's cause I live in "liberal" New England but...

I've converted more Conservatives, than i have lost friends.
Most were very easy.
Work friend still says that reagan was the best president in history, but voted for Kerry and is very upset with the crowd that took over "his party".

I did have a throwdown with my sister-in-law during the holidays and we have yet to speak since. She just ranted on and on about 9/11.
3000 people died? Yes.
3000 Americans? No.
Terrorists? Yes
Iraq? No.

Round and round we went, same bullshit I was debunking, until her husband broke us up.

These are trying times.

[acmejack]

13. Your family here stands with you!

I think most of us know exactly what you are going through. My best friends for 40 years no longer associate with me for those same reasons. I obviously have very little in common with people who can think the way they do.

[renate]

51. you say you have little in common with people who

do WHAT the way they do?

I think the words you're looking for are "follow mindlessly."

[acmejack]

56. People who think that the neos are correct!

I really don't believe it is necessary for me to enumerate all of those points. But for a start, I will cite the war, which they think is right and justifiable. The abuse of "detainees", the Patriot act, the tax policy, the debt. I am sure you can had literally scores of items to this list.

[applegrove]

16. Family & friends are the most important thing in life. Don't give up so

easily. Time for the peace talks. Set rules and guidelines about how much time you will invest in this. Your husband can do some research to assuage his own dam fears.

For sure if you go through a change your friendships may change. But don't give up the good eggs. Life is precious. So is your good name. So invest some time in meetings with like people and make new friends there. Then you can share with people who understand how you feel. You will feel heard. And you can have the old pals there to spend time with in other ways.

Too much of anything is bad. You are right to feel worried and angry. Your kids will be paying for this war in the years to come. They will also be paying for the tax cuts. So go out and get a local possy and negotiate for the time you need to spend with them & be heard. And get some balance back in your life. The internet is passive and way too easy to find 'exactly' like minded people in. And it can turn into an addiction. Just like Martha Stewart takes over some women's lives and becomes 'porn' in that way - so too can the cycle of news.

Don't let the Bushites diminish your personal life. You are growing and others cannot be there with you. So re-organize. And get some exercise. You do have to protect your own heart and be discerning about the battles you get into. You cannot possibly fight it all that hits the news unless that is the only thing you do. You don't even see democratic politicians fighting it all - all the time - and they are politicians! So if this be one battle you need to sink your teeth into. So be it.

This bullshit will pass. Pace yourself. Invest in a few battles. And be there to fight in the next elections. And warn people ahead of time that the 'elections' are where you will be come 2006. If you don't want to abandon those who rely on you - you will have to trade some time now for then.

IMHO

[slipslidingaway]

49. Nice post, important points. n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

17. OK, your responses made me cry a little harder and then do the spinal

stiffening thing.

It's the right thing to do...pointing out the corruption and criminality that passes for government.

And, I am going to vigorously encourage all of my allegedly liberal friends to go on the Conyers website and add their signature.

Those who offer protests will be subjected to my rants, which may be the death knell to those relationships.

How f**king hard is it to sign an e-document?

Yet, I know that there will be some bitter arguments. Thanks to all of you for your words of encouragement and willingness to share your own experiences.I can, and must, do this, and knowing that there are so many others who understand...makes it a little easier. MKJ

[quaoar]

30. It doesn't have to be all or nothing

My father is a RW nut. Has been all his life. But he's my father so I let me rant and rave. He listened to a lot of stupid shit from me when I was growing up so I figure I can put up with some of his.

I even let him watch Fox when my parents come to visit. I just leave the room.

There was probably a time when you were not so passionate about politics, when you did not feel the urgency of the times as you do today. But something happened, something galvanized you. It might have been one thing -- the proverbial last straw -- or an accummulation of things.

It may be that your husband just hasn't gotten to where you are yet. Maybe he's where you were a while back. Maybe his camel's back isn't broken, but I'd bet it's carrying a lot of weight.

You know him better than anyone. Maybe he's worth waiting for.

[unhappycamper]

20. It really surprises people when you mention the current Iraq death toll.

And the current causality count.

And the Downing Street memo.

And the voting fraud.

I refuse to call the people fighting us in Iraq insurgents. They are Freedom Fighters or Patriots.

I call Dobson, Robertson, Falwell & that bunch what they are: radical clerics.

The sig line on my email reads:

===================================
"If you tell a lie often enough, and with enough conviction, the people will believe it as truth."
-- Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Nazi propaganda minister

Interested in freedom? Read -> http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/

-0-0-

I refuse to shut up & I am losing some friends. I will most likely run out of friends; I just pray I don't run out of country.

[oxbow]

48. Maybe rebels. Certainly not freedom fighters

I can't think of those people as freedom fighters. they kill civilians in scores for political purposes. They execute innocent people on TV simply for being from another country. They are just as bad as the soldiers who torture Iraqis.

[peacetalksforall]

24. The right wing claims that we who speak out against the takeover of our

country are the enemy, i.e., not patriotic.

I'm considering that freepers are more patriotic than those who are burying their heads.

I can recognize that some people are scared - which means they know more than we might think they know, but what they know may have many degrees of reality.

There was a time when we thought we were free to ride things out and trust that somehow our 'leaders' will take care of us. Some seem to have always known that things were stinky, others of us never knew the depth of it until we became studens again.

Our biggest challenge is motivating those who don't like what they're seeing, but excuse it because of 9-11.

I know what you mean about relationships. When I start talking, not even ranting, it is very obvious that people are sending signals that they don't want to listen. Many of the young I (happen to) know are more savvy than the older people.

I deeply resent the people who try to tell me that things are getting better.

There are one big plus that we are getting from the politically greedy right and the religious right - we are learning one hell of a lot about the law, the Constitution and B of R, and about the Exec, Judicial, and Legislative branches of the government. Hey Dick...thanks!

But, if we don't keep on spreading what we know they will change the Constitution and not even tell us what's in it...like the Patriot Act and their plan for SS - the way they didn't level with the Dem side of the Congress on Iraq...the way they didn't level with Congress on Iran-Contra...the way they avoid FOIA and letters from Congresspeople.

[thinkingwoman]

25. about the no-fly list...

it's irrelevant if you don't fly. :)

I haven't flown for almost a decade and don't plan to do so again any time soon. If driving is impractical, I don't go.

I refuse to give that much money to be treated that badly by both the airlines and "airport security."

They can put my name on their no-fly list if they want. I could not possibly care less. And that's very liberating.


Edited for smilie illiteracy.

[steve2470]

27. I feel really bad for you

I don't think I have the courage you do. I think following your gleam, so to speak, is worth it long term, but it exacts a very high price from you short term. I'm avoiding conflicts at work, etc. while I promote this peaceful revolution to overthrow the fascists.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. My hubby doesn't worry about the lists. He's on the opposite side

of the spectrum.. a conservative who thinks I am a leftwing fringe radical conspiracy theorist. :eyes:

I wish you luck resolving things with your hubby.

*hugs*

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

75. Thanks for the good thoughts and hugs...my husband is a democrat

but a fiscally conservation, 2nd amendment adherent. He is also a Vietnam era vet (we met while we were in the Army)

He vacillates back and forth...on the one hand, he recognizes what a disaster gwb's presidency has been, on the other hand, he isn't thrilled at the level to which I rant and carry on about gwb.

He sort of rolled his eyes when I got involved in the Kerry campaign, but was pretty good humored about it. He and I both believed Kerry would win.

Now, he keeps saying, "you've gotta just deal with it" and has been leery about either of us participating in anything which could be viewed as "anti government".

Anyone who lives in the Denver area is probably aware of the "spy files" DPD has been keeping on citizens who participated in legal demonstrations. My husband reminds me of this frequently and points out the Big Brother aspect of our government. He thinks I'm just asking for trouble.

Well, I've been a DU member for a year, I've participated in many "liberal" political events and yet when I flew out of state last month I had zero problems.

It's frustrating to have my husband being skittish about speaking up.
But, I can't let that keep me from speaking my piece.

The responses on this thread have been fantastic and inspirational.
I had no idea the response my post would generate.
MKJ

[Last Lemming]

29. Osama Bin Laden has already given us our cue

On his last video--just before the election--he discusses election fraud and all then he says: this is my message to the American people: Do not rely on George Bush or John Kerry to make you free--you must depend on your own selves

or something like that

[peacetalksforall]

33. This is what Musharraf of Pakistan said yesterday or Friday:

as reported in a thread on DU yesterday.

"He said the Muslim world’s attitude towards Israel and the West would change with peace in the Middle East – that the Muslim world saw as just. He said, “If the EU were to get involved, if Germany were to get involved, I am sure the Muslim world would see it much
more positively.”

[lostnfound]

31. You have hit a nerve, haven't you?

It's the tension between love and justice. What is happening at the hands of * is such an injustice, and those who stand by are aiding and abetting. Which makes you furious and disgusted. You don't want to stand idly by, making small talk -- or big talk either -- with the bystanders and enablers of the Fourth Reich/Armageddon/WW4/The American Devolution/DarkAges2 or whatever you want to call it. You want to 'stand in the place where you live' and not keep acting like everything is normal when your country's leaders defend torture and bomb with impunity.

Yet, in quieter moments, you feel in your heart that you're not supposed to give up on people, not supposed to stop loving someone just because they are weak or because they are on the opposite side of a political fence from you. You might also sometimes think that healing across that painful divide is exactly what you should do in order to 'be the change you want to see'. Perhaps the frustration that leads to anger is a kind of failure of imagination..we erode a mountain by being like water flowing constantly by; but it's not happening quickly so we think it isn't happening at all, and we want to become like solid rocks or like lightning instead, to have an immediate effect.

I'm with you in this tension.

[BigBearJohn]

32. I'm with you!!!!!!

[Sir Jeffrey]

34. May I offer another perspective?

I understand your frustration and passion for your ideas, but you need to remember that people will only see what they want to see. No matter what you say, if someone is paying attention to the news cycle and still thinks W is god, jeebus, and rambo combined, nothing you can do will change their minds. Critically thinking people will come around, but the ones who don't will never make the effort to understand why you think the way you do. You'll only be causing them more grief.

Let me quickly add though that I am not saying for you to back off from a debate/fight that you did not start. F--- that! Reduce them to tears in a debate if they start one...or make them look like dummies...or make them admit that you're "probably right but"...

But if they're just "ignorant" conservatives you won't convince them any more than they could convince you.

Your husband is only trying to protect you because, yes, it does suck that we cannot speak our minds freely with impunity, but the reality is that by taking a confrontational approach with people who have a substantial amount of power over you (bosses,family,etc), your well-being will suffer in the long run. Then you'll have less money to donate when Conyers or someone like him runs for Prez...or you won't be able to afford to take a few weeks off to volunteer for the next election cycle, and so forth.

If you confront these people now, you'll definitely not convince them of anything...and you'll never have the opportunity to do so in the future. If you waited until cracks start to appear in even one of these people (such as "I can't believe we're actually considering this stupid SS proposal"), then you can be there to gently persuade them to question other aspects...then you can reveal the truth to them slowly and in a manner that makes them think they discovered it themselves...and you will have accomplished in a peaceful and effective manner what you will not be able to accomplish forcefully.

Remember that for a lot of people, their belief system gives purpose to their otherwise meaningless lives. Many won't admit it, but they know deep down that what they believe about god, country, W, etc. is a lie...but the lie makes them happier than facing the truth. If you go throwing the truth in their face, they'll naturally end up hating your guts for it even though you're just trying to help them see what you see. The truth about W, the war, etc, is sitting there RIGHT INFRONT OF THEIR FACE, you know this and all of DU knows this. But they don't want to see it right now, so you're wasting your time.

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, but I've had a lot of experience with this type of thing and it never works. It just causes more grief and pain. If you don't like these people's beliefs, either don't talk about beliefs with them or stop spending time with them. Thank you for reading :)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

39. Thanks for a thoughtful and heartfelt response. You are clear in your

recognition of the complexities in the dynamics of relationships, specifically around politics.

I must acknowledge that I have RW friends and family members whom I love and believe are kind and compassionate.

However, I feel I MUST speak up. If one considers one's self a Christian, how can one defend or endorse what our government is doing?

I know what you're saying. Whatever I say to these individuals, if they are not ready to see the truth, then they won't see it.

Yet, I have to live with myself. I hope I can state my thoughts about gwb without being ostracized by those I care about. But, it's come to a point where I must make the stand and deal with the fallout.

That's the reason for my tears and frustration. And I am grateful for this community that embraces many points of view. MKJ

[Sir Jeffrey]

44. How about this approach...

I was able to live with myself after approaching a similar situation you have between my uncle and me. About a year ago we got into a heated discussion over the phone about whether the Iraqis were better off now than before. I did the usual arguing at first (agent orange is fine with you, massacring civilians is okay, what would jesus bomb, etc) but it wasn't getting through.

After an hour, I noticed that he was citing fox news personalities, nbc propaganda pieces, etc. I finally told him "Look. You know I love you and I am not a terrorist/commie/pinko/whatever. If you are going to take the word of propagandists paid by the rich and powerful to lie to you over your own flesh and blood, it is now obvious to me that you can't be convinced of anything right now. Therefore, there is no sense continuing to discuss this until you open your eyes up to the way the world actually works. If you ever want to know what is really going on in Iraq, Washington, or wherever, you can ask me and I'll happily tell you the truth because I love you. If you want to continue to feel good about all of the unnecessary murdering going on in Iraq, keep watching fox."

After I did this, I felt so much better because I closed the door on what was going to lead to hurt feelings and whatnot, yet I still left him an opening if he ever wanted to open his eyes to the world. Perhaps you could try this approach (or something similar to it) since it draws a clear distinction between who is really on their side...

But I really feel for you right now. Seeing people we love blinded by propagandists is awful, and we as liberals have trouble dealing with this since we have in a sense been liberated from the system to a certain degree...we have trouble understanding why it is that others cannot see what we do. But it is important to remember that we became critical thinkers of our own choice...we had to choose to open our minds to information critical of our system.

But not every critical thinker is exposed to the information we get on DU and other sites...or not everyone is of a degree of intelligence able to understand history, politcs, etc, or maybe people don't want to hear certain things no matter how true they might be (which I find is most often the case). For example, try explaining to a meat eater how meat goes from the factory farm to their stomach. See how far you get before they tell you that they don't want to know.

I can tell you first hand that had anyone told me on 9/12/2001 that George W. Bush let 9/11 happen on purpose, I would have been deeply offended as an American, not a liberal or conservative. But as I gradually saw what was unfolding before my eyes, I came to the realization that there is no reasonable alternative. This process took me years of independent studying, questioning, and so forth.

As a final note before I head off to bed, I have to say that IMO if you approach these people from a less confrontational standpoint, you could get your points across...but remember, it is equally important to listen to their rebuttals. You probably already know this, but I'll say it anyway: personal arguments are won or lost on how effective you are at convincing the other side...not on style, points, bluster, or anything else. You can win a critical thinker over if you really listen to their rebuttals and effectively debunk them. In the law, we're taught to make our opponent's case as well as our case. You'll need to know how they're going to approach your argument in advance so you can deal with them effectively. Rebut the rebuttal and you'll win.

G'night and best of luck

[CJCRANE]

55. On a similar note...

One analogy I realized that may be useful to help uninformed friends is...football (or any sport in general).

Think about it...any sports fan will follow their team every week, turn straight to the sports pages in a newspaper, perhaps read a sports mag with the gossip and general hearsay about their chosen sport. These sports "fanatics" can generally name a team line-up from twenty years ago, or which player had the best average, their favourite game, their fantasy team, how the team will do next week etc. Basically they follow their game religiously and know untold trivia and info that a non-sports fan would have know idea about.

The dedicated DUer is just like a sports fan, except their game is politics. They follow the teams (Democrats, Republicans etc), probably read the news & blogs pretty much everyday, they know who's going up and who's going down, the inside info, analyse previous games (elections) etc.

So, when some-one doubts your knowledge of news/politics ask them if they would doubt a sports fan's knowledge of their favourite team!

[omega minimo]

73. Rebutting rebuttals

Thanks SirJ for the perspective.

BleedingHeartPatriot: Please remember the level of doublethink that you --and your family & community -- are dealing with. These people have been totally bamboozled. Their resistance to any breakthrough protects them from breaking down; their defensiveness allows them to continue to function.

We are in a bubble of denial, enabled by the media and enforced by the government. You have poked your head out and seen the truth. They are still inside sucking up the Kool-Aid-laden atmosphere. When the light shines into their minds, they will be freakin' out.

A person I know is open-minded and aware-- up to a point and no further. That point seems to be where community peer pressure and daily life pressures demand the ability to keep on keepin on. I bring up subjects, ask her if she's heard about the 72 FAA warnings prior to 9-11 or the Downing Street Memo-- things I know have reached MSM-- and then I listen. I listen to what she says and what I hear is exactly the wording of what people are told to think about these things, the public talking points. Even tho she thinks she knows how far up the food chain the corruption goes and "what's really going on." The MSM and hatejocks feed the public THEIR talking point memos for every story.

What you have brought up highlights the interpersonal conflicts created by the political doublethink. Sir Jeffrey's approach will work. We are ALL dealing with the insanity of the situation and fostering awareness in our own way as best we can.

The obfuscation has been a 25 year campaign of Orwellian intent. Many folks don't have the energy or the will to remember that 2+2=4, not 5.

Sir Jeffrey, your comments on "rebutting the rebuttal"-- fascinating. That is what "they" are doing! The level of pot-calling-the-kettle-black crazymaking is impossible to keep up with! The hatejocks tell their hate-crazed listeners that liberals "hate" them and "hate" America. One recent buzzword I noticed from the administration (repeated often in a few days) was "sustainability"-- claiming that golden word in their Newspeak lexicon. They are saying the exact opposite of the truth at this point-- and getting away with it. (Thank you, Ronald Reagan, for getting that ball rolling!) Bush just said that in his line of work, he has to repeat that same thing over and over again, to CATAPULT THE PROPAGANDA. As if that's a good thing!

The mindfuckers are preemptively rebutting our rebuttals to their rebuttals.

:crazy:



So, BleedingHeartPatriot: Take a breath. Listen to your loved ones. Find compassion. Be there when they're ready to crack out of their shell into the light of awareness. Stay strong and focused. You'll be all right.

[BigBearJohn]

88. You are one smart cookie. Please call me friend. You rock!!!!!

[annabanana]

41. Very nice post, Sir Jeff..

And I think you are right. Each of us came to our understanding of the crimes being committed by this administration in several steps. The scope of it is just too hard to comprehend all at once.

But the inconsistancies are very evident,and it's very hard for the merely heedless to ignore completely. Spotting their doubts, and giving them "just a little more" to chew on if an effective way to help them open their eyes.

A rift is counterproductive.

[Sir Jeffrey]

45. Thanks...I put some work into that one anabanana :)

[annabanana]

42. Very nice post, Sir Jeff..

And I think you are right. Each of us came to our understanding of the crimes being committed by this administration in several steps. The scope of it is just too hard to comprehend all at once.

But the inconsistancies are very evident,and it's very hard for the merely heedless to ignore completely. Spotting their doubts, and giving them "just a little more" to chew on if an effective way to help them open their eyes.

A rift is counterproductive.

[annabanana]

43. Very nice post, Sir Jeff..

And I think you are right. Each of us came to our understanding of the crimes being committed by this administration in several steps. The scope of it is just too hard to comprehend all at once.

But the inconsistancies are very evident,and it's very hard for the merely heedless to ignore completely. Spotting their doubts, and giving them "just a little more" to chew on if an effective way to help them open their eyes.

A rift is counterproductive.

[BrklynLiberal]

35. "Evil prevails when good men do nothing" Edmund Burke

Count yourself among those who will not let evil prevail. I admire your courage.

[SpiralHawk]

36. You gotta be who you are

Nothing less than the truth. In my experience, life really doesn't work any other way.

Excelsior, Patriot

[Dr.Phool]

37. I know how you feel

Sometimes patience works, sometimes it don't. My wife, who is pro-life, but liberal in every other way, has voted Republican for 20 years, but not this time. I discuss all my political activities with her daily, and she came around, finally.

She used to make sure i was dressed right, and proof-read my speeches last year when I was running for Congress.

My sister, in another state, who has never had an original thought in her life, hasn't spoken to me since the first debate, when I told her Kerry handed Bush's ass to him in a basket.

Last week, I was in South Carolina visiting my parents (religious right fundie republicans), my dad tried to give me a lecture. I cut him off and said, "Look, we're polar opposites politically, and you knopw I originally supported Howard Dean, and I wasn't all that crazy about John Kerry, but I still worked for him because he was running against the anti-christ! If you don't believe me, check out your bible".

He started laughing and said, "I've never had it put quite like that, but you may be right".

[sintax]

40. You will make friends in unexpected places

all along the way.

ACT UP!

[undergroundpanther]

46. I have had hairy stuff

I speak out,

I have been punched,insulted..had a slurpee tossed on me..which was replied with iced tea.
Once a bunch of fundees chased me with knives because I was pagan..I got away by running into tall grass and brush in a zig zag pattern and hiding up a tree.

A lot of times when I confront a wing nut most people around me end up laughing at the wing nut.He lost his cool because I had already done the damage to his arguments so the lame insults and hits were spite..
Re thugs are insecure control freak bullies who cannot handle losing an argument.They have"entitlement" issues..thaty turn them into prime assholes.

[bush_is_wacko]

47. I have felt the same...

I have found though that "the talk" takes time to sink in. those of us who've been watching things unfold for many years now have had a gradual realization. With all the evidence that has surfaced in these years, actually just in the past several months alone, the information needs to be pushed on to them in a reasonable manner.

My own mother , who RAISED me to be the Liberal I am, is having a very difficult time believing that our government could have actually perpetrated 911. While I sympathize with her reaction to this, I believe it is my duty to consistently present her the evidence in small enough doses to comprehend and accept that they are indeed capable of doing just that. I hope she will eventually realize the only thing that really makes sense is that THEY actually did do it.

She used to be so brilliant at realizing when I changed my story a dozen times I was not telling the truth. I am hoping she hasn't forgotten her mothering skills enough so that showing her ALL the changes in their story along with facts like that we have over 100 "stray" planes a year and EVERY single time we track them down, without fail, will eventually make that good ol' motherly lie detecting radar kick in.

I went through a period of severe impatience with the deliberately ignorant, but I have to say, I now realize why they are deliberately ignorant. They just want to live in peace. Every now and then it is nice to take a day off from the truth and live the way I used to live, enjoy a walk in the park or a night out (even if we really can't afford it.)

I have no doubt your intolerance is temporary. Soon enough you'll be back at trying to doll out the truth in small enough doses for them to digest and understanding that their ignorant because it hurts too much to see the truth. Some of the ignorant, I have no doubt, are the truly sensitive among us.

[BamaBecky]

60. Hi there! How are you? Good to hear from you!

Incrediable that so many of us are going through this?

:grouphug:

Did you get my e-mail?

Bama

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

63. Yes, thanks :-)

I hope we can touch base soon. Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Is your whole family RW or just a select few? MKJ

[BamaBecky]

68. The whole bunch, cept for two cousins....n/t

[welshTerrier2]

50. my penny or two ...

well, my friend, i admire your deep commitment to your beliefs ... it's great that you're willing to make real sacrifices for a cause you believe in ... if all of us were that committed, we'd be in a much better position than we are today ...

having said that, however, i got a feeling from your post that you have come to this momentous decision fairly recently ... it sounds like as you've gotten deeper and deeper into your "political life", you're now seeing relationships you've valued in the past as not keeping pace with "the new you" ...

my only advice when i see people making significant changes in their relationships is "take it slowly" ... only you can know whether you value the people in your life ... but your measures do sound a bit sudden and two bits extreme ... perhaps a little more tolerance would be worth considering ... this is not to say that you shouldn't set a standard for who will be your friend and who will not be ... but you might find it useful to allow others the time to evolve as you have taken time to evolve ...

frankly, what else is politics if not that? if we who see ourselves as the most dedicated and committed can't influence those around us, how will we ever become more politically successful?? maybe the people in your life will benefit from your insights given more time ...

good luck whatever you decide to do ...

[ngGale]

52. There are people who have lost family after...

taking a stand. IMO, most of us have lost friends, some are indifferent. After asking myself was it just me who changed, I came to the conclusion my friends had also changed. Not only changed, but getting worse. The worse things get, the more excuses they have. Do whatever you have to do, hope it works out for you.

[splat@14]

53. DO IT, Dammit! Shout it from the roof top, scream it from your car.

Call the papers, the news media, your congressmen, and senators. Then call them all again. Watergate started with 4 lines in the back of the second section of the paper...this is too important to waste based on the fear of the opinion of others!

Rock on Patriot, make Memorial Day count!!

Splat!

[JNelson6563]

54. "I have little tolerance for non-involvement or apathy"

So, out of curiousity, what are you planning to do about this situation besides going "toe to toe" with friends and family?

Julie

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

62. I was involved in some Kerry campaign activities during the election but

the results really knocked me for a loop, for a while.

Over the past few months I haven't broached politics in any discussions with friends, family and co-workers. That will change immediately, and will impact those relationships.

I'm motivated to start working on a "grass roots" level here in CO. Our statehouse is controlled by Dems for the first time in decades and I hope to contact my district rep's office this week.

I'm also going to get much more involved in the stop WM in my neighborhood (see link), which will hopefully allow me to meet other like minded folks.

Just some thoughts. Do you have any suggestions in how I can focus this energy? MKJ


http://www.no72ndavewalmart.com/

[JNelson6563]

64. Good plans

If you want to work the grass roots, find your local party. It'll take a lot of work and money to keep that state House Dem. Local parties need to drive membership and raise money in a big way. With your energy you'd be an invaluable part of that effort and I'm sure they'd be glad to see you.

Rock on!

Julie

[AP]

65. Caring about politics shouldn't jeopardize your family relationships.

I was reading a book by Giancan Belli. She was a Sandanista. A lot of what the Sandanistas did to recruit people sounded pretty much like working on a presidential campaign, except you couldn't go door to door and talk random people into getting interested in Sandanistas.

Belli's description of subversiveness for the first third of the book sounded so incredibly mundane and mild. It was simply talking to people about politics and cultivating relationships and friendships.

Liberals who are so mad that, by talking about the issues, they're driving people away, are doing the opposite of what they need to do.

If you're really having a problem, I suggest you start reading -- read Jim Wallis, read Wellstone, read Lakoff, read John Edwards's book -- read as many books as possible, and find arguments that aren't argumentative. Start winning minds and not making enemies.

[OhioBlue]

76. Great point AP!

I've struggled with some relationships too. There are some people I avoid or some I avoid speaking to except about "the weather". I have found tho, that if you just talk about issues, it can be more effective. I live in a very Red area. Recently, a young lady told me that she voted for * and worked at the R booth at a local fair. I told her that I had usually voted D but ultimately respected the POTUS be it a R or a D. I told her that I couldn't respect * tho. I just threw in a couple of issues. I said that when he started hinting that Global Warming might be a myth, I couldn't beleive what a sell out to big business / energy industry he was. I also said that the last straw was the Iraq war. I turned against him that moment and never looked back. She said those were very good reasons. I didn't turn it into a confrontation and make her feel defensive, I just stated my position and she agreed with it. She also mentioned that she agrees with Democrats on most issues. I decided to let the conversation rest there and in the future just bring up certain issues and hopefully she will find her way.

[AP]

84. One of the reasons I think RW'ers promote the "divided America" theme...

...is because they want to encourage liberals to think the way the OP'er here thinks: "being liberal means being confrontational and ending friendships."

They do this because they know liberals have the persuasive arguments and this is the best way to keep them from making them persuasively.

It behoves progressives to figure out ways to do what Giancan Belli did: talk people into doing the right thing with good, informed, well-thought out, non-confrontational arguments.

[Lost Dutchman]

58. Take a deep breath...

OK, let's look at the facts here...

Air America is still on the air.

Democratic Underground is still on line.

Thousands of anti-neocon websites provided by US based ISPs are still available...

I can understand why your hubby is concerned about your security. But I honestly do not believe that neocon SS troops will be kicking in your door...

There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people decrying the neocon actions...

Unless you are planing on doing something more radical then vocal protesting or passive resistance, I think that you and your family are safe from the neocons for the moment...

As for your other relationships... I long ago made a decision that anyone that could not or would not respect the fact that I might disagree with them is not a healthy relationship. It is a form of co-dependency.

I hope my input has helped with your peace of mind, and I hope that my clinical take on relationships has not cause you any pain...

[BamaBecky]

59. You must listen to this Interview!

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495;article=84531;show_parent=1

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495;article=84531;show_parent=1
">Here

Tom Flocco

Canadian Interview

Bama

:loveya:

[abluelady]

66. I Totally Understand

I have chosen to make new friends. My problem is not so much the right wingers or the conservatives, but apathy. I wonder which is worse.

Have met many new, much more interesting people working together to make America a better place--even for the right wingers!

We may be on lists and in files, but I am proud of it.

[seabeyond]

67. i felt this way about a year ago

and as i started speaking out, i saw further support from husband and inlaws and family and friends could handle it. we didnt have to isolate and withdraw our love.

as i put stickers on car, and husband saw it was ok, and saw it was good for me, he then took two stickers and put on his metal notebook.

as he listened to me challenge people all over, influencial repugs, with a smile.....he too found a way to speak out in his own way, in his voice.

we own a business, and know the people that can effect our livelihood. people know our house as they drive by and we are hesitant to put signs in the yard. we have to be careful too. which is one of the things i use on my father and brothers, what a shame, a SHAME it is that their very people dont allow me to express without the threat of loss of business

kinda why i have issue with boycotting red companies. this area can easily boycott husbands business as a blue company.

pick your battles, pick your places, pick your people and pick your tone. you can do this without being hurt, i have learned over the last year

and i allow,........my husband to do it his way, his way that is comfortable for him. i dont judge, i respect and....i allow. this i think has allowed him to go way beyond what i ever expected from a texas, nra cardholding, midland, republican texan.

[patricia92243]

69. Listen to Sir Jeffrey. He's giving you good, sound advise tha you will be

glad that you listened to.

[dave123williams]

71. Remember; you're not alone. There's a lot of us who feel the same.

[Geek_Girl]

74. I was worried about speaking up too

because I live and work in a heavily republican area.
But I found it wonderfully liberating to speak my mind and writing LTE's. I decided to stop eating lunch with my fundie co-workers and have somewhat distanced myself from my freeper/fundie friends. I feel so much better, and once a week I get together with like minded friends for pizza at a local pizza place that prominently displays a John Kerry sticker in their pizza shop.

I haven't encountered any problems with my boss who is a rabid republican or other managers at my work. It's been nothing but a positive experience and I get a great deal of satisfaction, seeing LTE's that I wrote in my local newspaper.

I haven't been too active in Meet ups. But it is also a great way to meet new people who are like minded and a great way to get active in your area. You can slowly start spending more time with your new friends and less with your fundie friends while becoming active, and trust me you'll feel better for it.

[powergirl]

77. You and your hubby can survive and have differences. .

But the other friends, inlaws, etc. will have to be polite "relations." Fortunately, my husband and I are simpatico on politics - both lefties. His parents are freaky guns and Jesus people that are originally from Detroit but when they retired in South Carolina they got "freakified." Anyway, I used to argue with them all the time. But now, since I've got three kids, I don't way a word about politics. If they bring it up, I don't say a word. Occasionally, when they want to bitch about their stock going down, I might quip - thank God mean ole' Bill Clinton isn't in charge b/c then you'd have great stock prices and terrible MORALS in this country - sometimes you can't resist. You don't have to invoke a scorched earth policy with the 'rents and your friends. You should follow your heart and your mind and treat the brown shirts like children. Smile, nod and ignore. If your hubby loves you, he won't care about politics. The rest will take care of itself. Soldier on girlfriend.:pals:

[dooner]

82. Amen sister!

I think many of us have reached the breaking point. If we can't stand up for innocent people who are being killed today in our name with our tax dollars, for a pack of lies, we might as well be republicans.

I very recently had a "fight" with my Republican neighbor about Iraq war and her "Support Pres. Bush and the Troops" driveway sign. I tried to play the innocent questioner, but when you run into somebody who is very brainwashed, ignorant, and closed minded, it's pretty hard to stay the course. I am still slightly upset by the confrontation, and I feel a tiny bit guilty because the neighbor is now barely speaking to me. Before this disagreement, I would rather be quiet than cause trouble.
But that has changed now.

I made her uncomfortable, and if that makes her THINK at all, it will be worth it. If we can't speak up about the truth to our neighbors, we don't have much hope. Unfortunately, things we see as so obvious, are not so obvious to others, especially if they watch Fox news!

I've been debating whether to put up a sign opposite her "support Bush/Troops" driveway sign.. mine would say "Support the Troops, Impeach Bush". I think I will do it now. Nothing to lose, a lot to gain.

By the way, I live in one of the most liberal communities in this country, so my Republican neighbor is way out-numbered. This should have been a lot easier for me.

[roguevalley]

83. do what your heart says, sweetie. don't let it get you down.

[omega minimo]

86. Memorial Day Kick

Oh, the humanity

[Hello_Kitty]

87. Non-confrontational doesn't mean conciliatory

I've learned to argue with RWers effectively by (thank you George Lakoff!) staying on message. I stay calm and focused, not conceding one point to them. I don't repeat any of their buzzwords, not even to deny them i.e., "There's no such thing as Partial Birth Abortion" or "It's not a War on Terror" like I used to. I now describe it a tragic, but extremely rare, medical procedure that saves women's lives in extreme circumstances or I criticize this administration's illegal invasion and occupation of a country that had nothing to do with 9-11 but I never use their framing language. When they bring up red herrings, as so many of them will, I just smile and gently remind them of whatever topic we are discussing.

It's done wonders for my debating skills AND my blood pressure :)