Why do we fear a National ID card?

[CoffeeCat]

Maybe I'm shining a huge spotlight my ignorance, but what is so bad about a National ID card?

It sounds scary. It smacks of "1984". It provokes images of some helmeted Gestapo-like hack screaming, "Show me your papers!".

The idea does scare me, but I'm wondering what IS so bad about a National ID card?

How does it differ from a driver's license?

How can a National-ID-Card system be used to inflict abuse on America?

[ixion]

1. You don't have to have a driver's licesnse.

'nuff said.

[Miss Chybil]

9. But you do have to carry identification.

I used to work in the county jail and you'd be surprised the number of people brought in, not just for, but whose charges included "Failure to Provide Proper ID." Apparently, one is not allowed to be nobody - at least, not in Arizona. Even so, many times these people were booked as John, or Jane, Does pending fingerprint identifications. Clean prints usually meant the inmate would be released, but rarely was that the case. There seems to be a correlation with not wanting to tell the police who you are and an arrest warrant for a prior suspected crime.

All that said, here is why I don't like the national ID card - it makes it too easy for the government to come get you should they become crazed with power and you happen to fall into one of the demographics they're not happy with at the time. I'd rather they had to work at it, at least, a little before they rounded me up.

[bmcatt]

13. Since when?

Could you please point me to the relevant laws that state that I have to carry identification? To the best of my knowledge no such statute exists.

Granted, for certain *privileges*, I'm required to carry identification. If I want to drive a car, I need to have a drivers license on my person. If I want to fly a plane, I'm required to have my pilots license and a valid medical certificate.

However, if I want to walk down the street to the corner store and buy a soda and a candy bar, paying cash, I'm not required to have any form of identification, nor is any law enforcement agent allowed to stop me and demand to see any form of identification. Let's review the words "probable cause" and the Fourth Amendment, shall we?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Sure sounds to me like I have no obligation, in and of itself, to have any form of identification...

[Miss Chybil]

23. Try this...

13-3905. Detention for obtaining evidence of identifying physical characteristics; definition
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03905.htm

And, before you say, "Oh, but a crime has to have been committed..." Imagine a cop stops you on the way to the store. You have no ID. He thinks you're a guy they've been looking for. You say you're not. You tell him your name is Bmcatt. He doesn't believe you. You could be any number of people they're looking for. Think he's going to take your word for who you are? Think he has to? Nope. He can haul you in to find out if you're telling the truth, or not.

So, you may not be required by law to carry an ID, as long as you don't mind a trip to jail now and then.

[bmcatt]

31. Wow... Glad I live in an East Coast blue state

That's pretty nasty, although I'd probably be willing to, in a situation like that, take the ride to the jail and call an attorney who'd also be instructed to get in touch with the ACLU.

Not saying I'd win the case, but, by the same token, I think it'd be something worth fighting.

[Miss Chybil]

34. The law's the law. nt

[bmcatt]

36. Not quite...

1) There's always the court route to eventually get a law thrown out as being unconstitutional (either at the state or federal level).

2) Two words - "Jury nullification". Sadly, last I looked, attorneys weren't even allowed to present this during a trial for the jury to consider, but that doesn't remove the ability of a jury to do this.

[Miss Chybil]

38. Something like this never goes to a jury.

You're either who you say you are, or you're not. Once your identity is established, you are released, or detained, depending on the circumstances surrounding that identity.

[CTLawGuy]

41. well your subsequent lawsuit could go to a jury.

NT

[Amelie]

29. Where'd ya get the cash from?

You need an i.d. to get a job that pays above the counter. Practically speaking, it's almost impossible to operate without an i.d.

[bmcatt]

32. I said "carry" not "posess"

Please note that I was talking about the right to be anonymous whilst walking down the street, not in *all* situations. Walking around without any official ID is not (well, except maybe for in AZ) a crime.

Having an official ID and (presumably) being required to carry it is too short a step away from being required to present it to random police officers who just want to see if you're carrying yours.

[wli]

2. tracking capabilities

With 50 different kinds of ID's it's almost impossible for the things to be used to track people's movements except for getting stopped by a cop. A scannable national ID and/or biometrics makes things a bit too trivial for the govt. to track.

[flordehinojos]

3. because everything that you do, from the air that you inhale to the air

that you exhale will be tracked down through your national ID card which, in addition, will have you pecked into the American Cast System: You have money: you are on top of the pyramid. You don't have money: you are an indented servant. You don't get to fly on planes. You PAY HIGHER INTEREST RATES ON CREDIT CARDs. You'll say goodb ye to your civil liberties...and to move from one state to another, one house to another, etc.etc.etc., you will have to first have GOVERNMENT CLEAREANCE... you will become a pawn of the state and that is SOOOOOOOOO MOOOOOOOORALLY WRONG!

[canadianbeaver]

6. Yeah.....what Flordehinojos said.......!!!!

I mean really.....think about it....its wrong on many levels. CONTROL CONTROL CONTROL....THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT!!!

[HockeyMom]

4. "Papers, Citizen?"

[indepat]

5. We will have a likely unfunded federal mandate which will overwhelm the

resources of the states whose personnel won't be qualified to make the required determinations. The lines will be horrendous with likely thousands of elderly people dropping like flies and the working public having to take an indeterminable amount of time off from work. The costs will likely out weight the benefits in approximately the same proportion as many view the cost effectiveness of pre-emptive war in treasure, life, brains (damaged) and limbs (torn or missing). Course this is just my opinion and I might be wrong, but don't count on it.

[emcguffie]

7. it will have a chip

so they can follow your movements, your activities.

Big Brother will indeed be watching you.

[Silverhair]

14. Take a look at these Radio Frequency ID's that can be implanted.

http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html

From their web site:
"VeriChip is a miniaturized, implantable radio frequency identification device (RFID) that has the potential to be used in a variety of security, financial, and other applications. About the size of a grain of rice, each VeriChip product contains a unique verification number and will be available in several formats. The verification number is captured by briefly passing a proprietary scanner over the VeriChip. A small amount of radio frequency energy passes from the scanner energizing the dormant VeriChip, which then emits a radio frequency signal transmitting the verification number.

...VeriChip could function as a stand-alone, tamper-proof personal verification technology or it could operate in conjunction with other security technologies such as standard ID badges and advanced biometric devices (i.e. retina scanners, thumbprint readers or face recognition devices)."

And from their site:

"The ChipMobile is on the Move!
Watch for the Chip Mobile coming to your town!


PICTURE OF RV CONVERTED TO ADVERTISING BUS. Sorry, but I don't know to paste a picture. Maybe someone could PM me on how to do that.


"VeriChip Corporation's ChipMobile"

Your very own chip, under your skin, to ID you. Although not available now, I have read that they are working on a model that would transmit a location that could be tracked. Log on, enter the code, and know where a person is.

[emcguffie]

42. Yeah. Where can we escape to?

Did I hear that they were already putting them in pets?

They put them in the Bears at Build a Bear. Of course, that is different....

[Silverhair]

43. Verichip has already put them in humans. NT

[LizMoonstar]

44. should i be worried for my cat?

Loki Cat Moonstar is ID microchipped, since he came from a shelter, and they want him to be able to be returned to us or the shelter should he get lost. I guess he better not become a protestor?

[bigwillq]

8. Invasion of Privacy

That's why National ID is a bad idea.

[Zen Democrat]

10. Are your papers in order, Fraulein Schparkles?

[Independent_Liberal]

11. A good reason we should be afraid...

It's how the death camps in Germany got started.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

12. Because with good reason we do not trust those in power now

and we can't know who will be in power later.


B-)

[moodforaday]

15. European perspective

I was going to type something up - like, it's probably better (both safer and more convenient) to have a common well-designed ID than use your SS number, which any crook can use to clear your bank account or destroy your credit record... But here's a German guy who already says everything I'd say:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg05623.html

Don't get me wrong, I'm a nut about privacy. But it seems that in opposing the ID people may be missing the forest for the trees. You're in all sorts of databases already, without your knowledge or consent, you're on CCTV cameras, and we all can be tracked by cellphones all the time. At least in Europe corporations and governmental agencies are prohibited from sharing/selling personal information - though of course they'll serve it all on a platter to law enforcement. Anyway, the post I'm linking to makes a better argument.

Here in Poland the police have just arrested a guy for making a prank bomb threat from a prepaid cell phone - they traced him by the IMEI number that's embedded in the phone. In a way, IDs are moot already.

The two things I'd be strongly against thbough: requiring that you keep the ID on you at all times, and using biometrics. Biometric sensors can be fooled, and if your electronic fingerprint or iris image gets stolen from a database (and it will), you only have a limited supply of new thumbs and eyes. This is the real problem, because if someone steals your biometically-encoded identity, you'll never straighten it out for life.

(edited for damn typos ;)

[Donna Zen]

16. Do we or don't we?

According to the bill the National ID at this time will only have information that is commonly available. Let's face it, they can already track most of the things we do. However, 1) the information that they collect may/or may not be placed in a securely encrypted system, and 2) they are not establishing an over-sight or regulatory board to oversee the use and collection of that data.

The possibilities for mission creep on this idea are endless, especially without a regulatory board.

[cosmik debris]

17. It opens the door to a multitude of abuses

For example where I live, in Texas, I would expect that Anglo Americans will be asked for ID a lot less often than more colorful Americans. They will be punished because they look like they MIGHT be illegal immigrants.

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. It's the whole "Mark of the Beast" scenario.

Because if a "national ID card" is the first step, it's only a matter of time before it's an implanted chip or bar-code tattoo, as the cards will no doubt be counterfeited, as most legit ID's are already.

Even if you're an atheist and don't believe in the biblical Antichrist, you have to admit that the thought of someone controlling the economy to the extent that you can't buy or sell anywhere without the government ID is pretty fucking scary.

[madeline_con]

27. Mark of the BEAST!! End times! ARRRGGGGHHH!

Are the fundies screaming yet?

[ngGale]

37. "Mark of the Beast" - Nope, the fundie's haven't ...

figured it out yet. They love Bush too much still to think about it.
If Kerry was in, they would be screaming "Anti Christ." If Kerry's brother was governor of Florida and all the hurricane's - they would be screaming, the wrath of God is upon them. I hope they 'chip' every one of them, by gosh. Never could figure out why growing up with all the "Left Behind" theory, why they just don't get it.
However, the Bible supposedly says - people will bow down before him and worship. Sounds true enough to me - none of them believe what I tell them. Sheep! :evilgrin:

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. Let's not forget who a major manufacturer of RFID tags is.........

....None other than the CARLYLE GROUP (aka the corporate investment branch of the Bush Criminal Empire)

And the Carlyle made tags have an interesting shape too. One that some other old friends of the BCE once adopted as their own..............

.....Can anybody say SIEG HEIL!

[bvar22]

20. Is THAT really the logo for the Carlyle Group????

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. That's not a logo, it's a picture of an actual RFID

...which just happens to be screen printed in a pattern that bears an uncanny resemblance to the swastika :scared:

And here I sit, listening to Alan fucking Colmes bitching about comparisons of Bush to Hitler.

Maybe I should e mail him this picture? Right before I e mail XM and tell them I'm cancelling my subscription if they don't get this FAUX wimp off the air. He has NOTHING to do with Air America radio.

[bvar22]

35. That is truly

the "Mark of the Beast"!
:scared:

[madeline_con]

28. CARLYLE GROUP

Well. it's no dangwonder. Another way for cronies to make another wad of cash in the name of "national security". It's so predictable!

[retread]

21. Maybe because of this?

http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

[hopein08]

22. Hitler had them...

that's enough for me.

Maybe we'll get special stamps if we're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, pro-choice, pro-life, gay, straight, pro-death penaly.........

Then we can all be neatly organized into compact groups for the purpose of figuring out who's an enemy of the state and who is an esteemed member of society. And it won't have a damn thing to do with what we've really got to offer.

[electron_blue]

24. Here's an equally ignorant question

Why do we need a National ID card?

In this day of massive information exchange on the Internet, it's very easy to verify someone's identify provided they have some form of id. Who cares if Arizona Driver's license is different from Pennsylvania's. Is this really holding back progress?

[The Straight Story]

25. Oh I think this could be a wonderful and great idea, with a little tweak

All elected officials must carry a special ID. Everytime they give a press conference the reporters get to look at it to verify who they are. Everytime the run for election and go door to door for votes or have a gathering, we have the right to demand they show it to us to prove who they are.

We also have the right to examine their financial transactions and track them to make sure they are not doing something wrong, and we will set up little alarms to tell us when they are wasting our money.

If they want to make new laws they must show their ID before casting the vote and have it shown on cspan.

If we have ID's for anyone it should be those we EMPLOY not id's for us, their employer. When the animal we have caged gets let loose and becomes the beast that terrifies us we must work hard to get it back in the cage.

[Zorra]

26. I don't need one, and I don't want one. Is that good enough? n/t

[leesa]

30. Because it is linked to ALL your information in a single source. They

can access your medical info, your purchasing and credit info, family history, arrest history, etc. One-stop shopping. It's VERY different.

[dbt]

39. Think back to the massive data thefts of a few months ago.

Anybody been caught yet--or have corporations just been passing the blame around?

[Q]

40. Because it robs you of your individuality...

...not to mention that it will be another unfunded mandate by government gone insane.

[Carla in Ca]

45. Because it puts us one step closer to

becoming a cashless society. Total control.