Who/what is MOST responsible for our recent electoral losses?

[MoonRiver]

Of course our losses are probably a combination of many of these factors, plus others I haven't thought of. But I'm interested in learning what y'all think has been the greatest factor in our downward spiral over the last 6 years.

[nickinSTL]

1. How about all of the above...

except for the whole, *'s outstanding record choice

[Capn Sunshine]

39. That's my choice too

Each of the items listed is a factor in continued electoral disasters

[mrgorth]

2. The democratic party

has become "anti-populist" under DLC rule. It is socially to the left which, while I support it, drives many away and we have become corporatist to boot. Truck driving white men hardly have a reason to vote for us without doing the necessary homework.

[jackster]

3. i voted "dirty tricks"

but black box voting IS a repuke dirty trick!

[SteppingRazor]

4. Perfect Storm

A compliant media, a Democratic Party that has stupidly tried to skew right to capture more votes, some voter fraud, some fair-to-middling candidates -- all of these things combined have caused problems, but no one of them can be said to be the downfall of the Democratic Party.

[Lerkfish]

6. great minds think alike...

I had just posted mine when I read yours.

good post.

[MoonRiver]

7. I guess I'm asking if one stands out in your mind as more responsible

than the others.

[TruthIsAll]

14. "Some" voter fraud? How about "massive" election fraud? n/t

/

[SteppingRazor]

18. Ah yes. I forgot that every electronic voting machine...

was programmed to vote twice for Bush for every Kerry vote.

I'm not willing to rule hat out completely, but the fact that such little progress has been made in investigating black box voting speaks volumes. A conspiracy of that magnitude would mean the cooperative silence of hundreds if not thousands of people. Without strong evidence, I'm no longer as willing to buy into it (but for the record, I was at one time convinced of massive electronic-voting fraud)

[iconoclastic cat]

35. I think you could name several conspiracies of that magnatude,

especially if you look at world history objectively.

[Lerkfish]

5. you left out "all of the above"

I think it was the synergy between all of them that did it.
It was a coordinated effort, therefore I have trouble assigning "most" responsibility.
If any one or two were missing from that list, it might have turned.
I guess ultimately election fraud won the day, but that wouldn't have worked if the other factors were not in play to shave the election close enough to pull off the fraud.

IMHO.

I blame various on your list for various things. I blame whoever influenced Kerry to avoid calling out the swiftboat liars promptly instead of letting it fester, but at the same time, you have bin ladin's campaign commercial for bush on the eve of the election.
If I were to assign ONE cause, it would be the creeping ubiquitous corruption of all elected officials who are republican or who act like republicans. I would therefore think the neocon agenda has the underpinnings for this, but they needed to utilize all the other factors to accomplish it.

As far as MOTIVE, I blame the neocons.
As far as METHOD, I think they all played a hand.

[FloridaPat]

8. The last 25 years the Democrats have not been the opposition party.

The repubs have done blatantly illegal things, blatantly immoral things, and the only thing anyone can remember over the last 25 years is Reagan is a conservative god and Clinton lied and was involved in a lot of dark dealings. The Democrats haven't done much to take over.

Another problem though is: the do nothing problem. If there is nothing to fix, why have a plan to fix it. SS for instance. There is nothing that is wrong with it a little tweaking won't fix. But the repubs want to redo it and accuse the Democrats of not having a plan. Well, one dones't need a plan, but the Democrats look inept because they don't have one and for some reason can't articulate loudly and clearing how best to deal with SS.

[omega minimo]

46. Echoing FloridaPat.......my answer is "Other"

Reaganomics

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. A combination of factors

2004 was a prime example.

First, they rigged the primary so that the DLC would get their candidate.

Then the mediawhores savaged that candidate. To make matters worse, he didn't fight back nearly as much as he should have.

Meanwhile the DLC ensured that the campaign was weak.

Despite their best efforts to sabotage the election, a record number of voters turned out, and logic dictates that the majority of them turned out because they were disgusted with the direction of this country.

But Diebold took care of that little problem.


You can't look at all of this and put the blame on just one factor. ALL of these factors must be dealt with if we're ever going to have a truly fair election in this country again.

[Totally Committed]

16. I agree! Too many choices apply...

A combination of "DNC and/or DLC policies", "Poor electoral campaigns by candidates", and "Repuke dirty tricks" (Stealing elections is the dirtiest of dirty tricks).

If I have to choose one as "most responsible": To my mind, I am not willing to give the DLC/DNC another "strike". Two strikes, and they are OUT. If they "annoint" our candidate this time, too, we will lose. If we lose one more time, the Democratic Party is dead, and so is our beloved America. Party unity be damned, I am resisting Hillary with every ounce of my being. Ditto Kerry, Biden, Vilsak and any other card-carrying DLC member. Never again.

AntiCoup2K4, your post is right on the money.

[Wickerman]

10. I can't solely blame the candidates

sure, we have run some stinkers, but look at what the 'Pukes have fielded! No way in a non-fictitious world would've a Bush ever been President - a Reagan either!

There is a lot of blame to go around, and I have to agree with the poster who said a Perfect Storm of blame.

[rman]

11. Repuke dirty tricks includes all of

DNC and/or DLC policies (by proxy)

Poor electoral campaigns by candidates (at least in part by proxy - damn advisors)

The stupid American electorate (makes it easy to game the system)

Media whore propaganda (who owns the media)

Black box voting

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

17. nice, you got all the RW talking points there

-

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. Yeah, smells like Freep Spirit, doesn't it?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

21. sure, whatever

i've heard it all before

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MoonRiver]

24. NO. Candidates are losing because they no longer speak to core

democratic values. They have SOLD OUT to corporate interests, and think that looking Repuke lite will actually get them more votes from Democrats. :crazy:

[grannylib]

40. That's pretty much what I think...not enough distinction between the

parties anymore except the often stereotypical 'God, guns and gays' issue folks ('God' of course referring to a whole host of unholy ideas that really have nothing to do with Christianity, if that's the point...)
I miss Paul Wellstone. We need to step up to the plate and take over. All of us.

[MoonRiver]

42. Oh, yes, I totally agree. And I so miss Wellstone.

:cry:

[PatsFan2004]

12. Plus there is the general problem of population movement.

New York and the northeast is losing rightwing population to the southwest. This will probably cause NY to lose electoral votes and for Texas, AZ, and so on to gain electoral votes. This makes it more of an uphill battle for 2010 and beyond.

[MoonRiver]

23. But the leftwing is moving East and West.

People who can't get to Canada sure can move to more progressive areas in America. I say let the ignorant bottom feeding wingnuts move to the financially depressed South. I'm sure they can find lots of cheap trailer parks to their liking. GOOD RIDDANCE. We can at least keep the East and most of the West Coast civilized.

[PatsFan2004]

25. Unfortunately, it appears that most of the movers are from the

upper classes, those who can afford to move. These folks have money and right wing ideas.

[MoonRiver]

26. Do you mind posting a link to substantiate this claim?

My opinion is that rich people (whether Dem or Repub) tend to stay in wealthy areas where they can enjoy the lifestyles they have become so comfortably accustomed to. I know that rich Jews have moved to Florida in the past (many of my husband's family did so). But I've heard through family and friends that this trend is ending due to intolerance and blatant rightwing politics in that state. Instead old Jews are going to Arizona or California. This is anecdotal, but from a very informed source. :D

[PatsFan2004]

28. I can't remember the commentary, but states like NY

cannot afford to lose population and maintain political clout. We know that the 2000 census moved electoral votes to the Southwest from the Northeast. There were a number of articles before the 2004 election about the fact that the Bushies had a built-in advantage in that the "red" states had more electoral votes than in 2000.

[MoonRiver]

33. I don't believe that is true.

I'll try to look for something to substantiate my position, but the truth is that there are only a few truly red and blue states. Most are "purple". That aside, I believe that in general blue electoral votes outnumber red.

[Robeson]

37. No thank you. You can keep your own wingnuts. We have enough of...

...them down here in our "trailer parks" already. And believe it or not, we even have homes down here, too! With electricity and running water to boot!

[aspberger]

45. LOL n/t

[cmd]

13. Me

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

27. It is the central tabulators even more than the

paperless voting machines.

Thousands of votes at a time can be changed by this software.

[blm]

29. If Dems were so bad then why do Repubs need to control vote machines and

the broadcast media to keep Bush propped up?

[wyldwolf]

30. A combination of...

... the public's perception of post 60s Democratic policies and a media more than willing to report the smears that the rightwing employs.

Oh the media would have reported any efforts by the left to fight back but - until recently - the left wouldn't fight back and if you called for us to do so, you were told "liberals take the high road... we won't sink to their level."

But I will ask for about the 1000th those who pick "DLC."

Give me some evidence that the DLC caused any electoral losses.

[Lecky]

31. The reason why Democrats lost was because Bushco pimped 911

(as well as the MSM)

They trusted Bush to protect them from "terra" more than Kerry (and Democrats in general).

Fear is a very VERY powerful propaganda tool.

[bvar22]

32. My first impression was "All",

but after thinking about it, I choose DNC/DLC.

With good LEADERSHIP, none of the others would have been significant.

Good leadership (The responsibility of DNC(DLC) would have recognized the problems with BBV, and would have STOPPED GOVERNMENT calling for NATION WIDE strikes until this insult of unverifiable elections was corrected!

Good Leadership would provide a CLEAR SPECIFIC PLATFORM of Worker Rights that would resonate across the country and allow local candidates to be identified with National Unity and Power. (Anyone read the Democratic Platform lately? What IS it we stand for?) Even lackluster marginal candidates would be able to hold up Platform of Worker Rights and say "This is what I stand for!" (Remember the brilliant Gingrich campaign "Contract with America?)

The LEADERSHIP of the Democratic Party IS ultimately responsible for our current situation!

[imenja]

34. poor candidates and voters who prefer to bitch than volunteer

[Dr Fate]

36. "play it safe" issues and a refusal to tell the truth about Bush & the GOP

n/t

[MoonRiver]

43. My mind can't get around the concept that we play it safe & thereby lose.

What exactly is "safe" about this carefully designed strategy???????????????? I know you are not a DLCer, but if you have any insights into this seeming madness, please share. I don't get it, unless the DLC is part of the cabal. Please, God, NO!

[grannylib]

38. Obviously BBV is largely to blame, but it was way too close for my

liking even without the fuckers lying and stealing.
I think the biggest thing is the issues - we HAVE NOT been good about articulating OR supporting issues that would resonate with middle American voters. Jobs. Decent pay. Being able to REALLY get ahead economically, instead of just dreaming about it while watching the Conservative Elite rack up more billions. Taking care of our lovely planet, maybe...just a thought. SERIOUSLY supporting alternative energy sources.
That kind of thing. Not to mention supporting the usual good things, like telling the government (and the fundies/Vatican) to keep its fuckin' nose out of my bedroom, body and belief system.

[NAO]

41. THE RELIGIOUS REICH -- Their Army of Electoral Shock Troops

We underestimate the Religious Reich at great peril. The Corporatists may think they are just using the RR for political gain, but the RR is dead serious, and they are in this for the long haul.

The RR will increase it's power over minds and politics. There are more Electoral Shock Troops in the RR than in any other hardened, unified political constituency. The troops of the RR are immune to the "worldly" influence of the media and advertising campaigns. They get their marching orders directly from God's Generals like Dobson and Falwell.

***
***

Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism". Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[intheflow]

44. Media whore propaganda.

Could the Associated Press (AP) Rig the Election?
by Lynn Landes 10/22/04


The Associated Press (AP) will be the sole source of raw vote totals for the major news broadcasters on Election Night. However, AP spokesmen Jack Stokes and John Jones refused to explain to this journalist how the AP will receive that information. They refused to confirm or deny that the AP will receive direct feed from voting machines and central vote tabulating computers across the country. But, circumstantial evidence suggests that is exactly what will happen.

(snip)

But, can't the AP be trusted? Isn't it an objective non-partisan news organization? Some say no. The AP is batting for a Bush presidency.

In Online Journal, Stephen Crockett and Al Lawrence, the hosts of Democratic Talk Radio, wrote, "...the Associated Press ran a story that was widely published in newspapers and on the Internet, headlined "Bush Leads Kerry In Electoral Votes," that could have been written by the Bush campaign. The assignment of states to candidates, the headline and the conclusions were all simply wrong. The Associated Press should print a retraction and work to see that it is widely published."

And on WBAY TV in Green Bay, Wisconsin ran an AP article reporting that Bush has won the election, weeks before the election is to take place. The AP reported, "At this hour, President Bush has won re-election as president by a 47 percent to 43 percent margin in the popular vote nationwide. Ralph Nader has 1 percent of the vote nationwide. That's with 51 percent of the precincts reporting." According to reports, the AP is now saying the article was a "test article," a never-heard-before journalistic practice.

http://www.ecotalk.org/AP.htm

[MoonRiver]

47. O-M-G, n/t

[grannylib]

48. holy flurking schnitt....never seen this one before. and as always, i

wonder where the HELL were the rest of the media on this one?
i want to cry.