I'm tired of hearing: "fix the voting machines"....

[election_2004]

Yet, no one ever proposes HOW to actually work toward fixing them!

Obviously, there needs to be a paper trail replacing the purely electronic machines...but that still doesn't eliminate the little hurdle of HOW DO WE MAKE IT HAPPEN?

Yes, the voting machines need to be fixed. We get it. Now let's figure out exactly how to do it.

- petition drives?
- lobby the DNC?
- website with a 50-state overview of voting problems?
- public challenge issued to every state's SoS (regardless of party affiliation)?

I'm just throwing out ideas here, and I'm sure I'm overlooking other possible solutions...

I'm getting very frustrated with people trying to silence discussion and dialogue of 2008 by repeatedly saying, "It won't matter who the Democrats nominate if the voting machines are rigged"...yet, these same people fail to offer any constructive ideas for ACTION in order to accomplish that goal.

Honestly, do some people here think if they chant it enough times that the Democracy Fairy is just going to come floating by and throw pixie dust on Diebold to make it evaporate?

I'm not posting this to attack or flame those who bring up the issue of rigged elections, nor I'm I trying to trivialize or deny the problems that exist with the voting machines.

I'm just irritated that people are trying to silence other discussion topics, yet, they refuse to speak proactively about what they can do to fix the problem THEY believe should be the priority (in this case, the voting machines).

[senseandsensibility]

1. I feel the same frustration

and I know that many good DUers who are much more involved and informed than I am have been working on this for months in the Elections forum. It seems to me to be a matter of organization. If everyone on DU e-mailed on the same day if might force someone to listen. We need to use our numbers to our advantage.

[Sir Jeffrey]

2. Part of the problem...

Rests with the national party as they turn a blind eye to the rampant fraud and reams of evidence. This is the main reason why I have lost all respect for Kerry (but let's not go there...I've shit on Kerry enough to know that DU is the wrong place to do it).

So long as the DNC and prominent members of the party refuse to publicly acknowledge/discuss this issue, we (the mass) are hamstrung. We don't have the money, connections, or the resources to do much about it...and our votes are being taken from us en masse.

Suppose for an instant that we all flooded the news outlets with demands that they cover VF...I know for a fact that we already did that because I took part in it. We got a few stories on Mr. Olbermann's show and a "elections get stoled all the time" show on Nightline. Dead silence or hearty laughs at our expense from the rest. At that point, it is up to our elected reps to represent us, which they didn't do.

I understand and can sympathize with your desire to actually DO SOMETHING about it besides rant online about it, but until the bigwigs in the party admit to the problem (or even start a dialogue about it nationwide) nothing will get done. They'll continue to throw us a bone here and there ("Ooooohh...I heard 'professional politican X' is secretly gathering evidence about e-voting and is preparing indictments") and expect us to fall in line when election day comes because, well shit, we can't have the Republican win.

Two solutions I can see would be either:

DO away with them and go to simple paper ballots where you mark your ballot with an "X",stuff it in a clear plastic container, and they are emptied and counted in public (like in Germany)...or

Keep the e-voting BUT do so with a verified paper trail...like a receipt you get at the grocery store.

Personally, I prefer the German system. If a Dem runs in a primary and supports this system, they'll probably get my vote.

[election_2004]

7. What about the biggest bigwig: Howard Dean?

Do you think if the blogosphere and the netroots organized and designated one large massive day of flooding emails, letters, phone calls, etc. SPECIFICALLY AT DEAN (since he is DNC chair), that he could at least put it on the table as far as becoming part of the DNC platform?

[Sir Jeffrey]

8. Well, I'm all for it...

but part of the problem is that Dean could get stranded in no man's land if he goes heavy into the issue and gets stabbed in the back by our "appeasement" wing (who'll be brought on the news shows to stand as the "reasonable" contrast to Dean's "firebrand" style of populism...I can hear it now).

Remember, they don't want him in there...never did and no matter how much money he rakes in from us, they'll throw a kegger the day he leaves.

No way that becomes an issue for the platform IMO.

But I hear you, and understand what your point is. I just think Dean knows he can't go all out on this issue because he knows he'll be cast as a kook by his own party. Dean has no problem speaking the truth (Republicans = White Christian party for example), but there is really nothing to gain for him and him alone to speak out.

However, suppose that the sheer volume of calls, emails, faxes, letters, was so overwhelming that it convinced the DNC that the perils of ignoring the issue were greater than discussing it...and you start to get hopeful...

So, when do we set up VF Day? :D

[election_2004]

10. How about Nov. 2, 2005

The one-year anniversary of Election 2004

[blm]

12. Absolutely. Corruption needs sunlight. DNC and WE have to provide the sun.

.

[Sir Jeffrey]

13. I'm on board...

VF Day is 11/2/2005.

Here is the contact page:

http://www.democrats.org/page/s/contact

Before i start telling people about this: do you know if anyone has a better address to Dean than this? Does Dean even see these messages?

[election_2004]

16. I'm not sure specifically about Dean....

Perhaps some of the people in the Howard Dean Forum would have a better idea on where to send correspondence to Chairman Dean?

But it sounds like many people would prefer retitling it:
"Election Fraud Day"

Although "Election Fraud Smackdown" sounds so much more empowering ;)

[Sir Jeffrey]

19. Maybe after tonight's results...

we should start the "smackdown" much sooner instead of waiting until November.

Follow my reasoning here if you can (I'm drunk):

Hackett was grossly outspent in this race.

He should have lost this district by twenty points AT BEST, given last year's Pres. results.

He came a few points from a major upset by taking a no holds barred approach to his opponent.

Virtually every Dem campaign of late seems to have a split in the advice given to the candidates vis a vis attacking the opponent on certain issues (Kerry on the SBVT ads, Gore and his pulled punches in the debates, etc.etc.etc.etc.).

The Dem ALWAYS listens to what I refer to as the "loser" advisor ie the one who enjoys getting paid lots of money to offer shitty advice (yes you professional losers Mary Beth Cahill and Bob Shrum) and ignores the advice from the competent advisor ie the one who has studied campaigns enough to know how to attack, when to attack, how to frame a message, etc.

After tonight, some, not all, of these elected officials will see that it is possible to tell the truth about what is really going on instead of propagating the storyline of the corrupt system as it currently exists.

Coupled with these reps who may be moved to speak on the subject, wouldn't it be nice to have a big-ass pile of emails and letters from activists around the country to back them up when they talk to their appeasement-oriented colleagues?

If nothing else, Hackett's win proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the Dem base is not only growing, but is MOTIVATED. I get the feeling that this is like 1993, only multiplied because the Dems at this point are angrier now than the Reps ever were in 1993-94. Maybe tonight will provide the spark needed to show the DNC that, yes, we aren't all stupid...we know what's going on and you better talk about it now and do something if you can or your "establishment" types are getting kicked out in 2006.

[Eloriel]

27. Dean has put it on the table

And just so you know: the Platform isn't his to create. There's always a platform committee who does that in conjunction with the convention. Then it gets voted on.

Dean says -- and I agree -- that we have to have initiatives at the state levels for paper ballots. Every time I've heard him talk-- or answer questions ('cause sometimes he limits his talks to just 10 minutes or so), that's what he talks about.

And he's right. Near as I can tell we've got no one in D.C. who'll do the work of fixing this -- no one who understands the problem well enough or if they do, no power, and a few (Steny Hoyer, Chris Dodd and perhaps others) who seem to be on the wrong side entirely.

The OTHER thing we can do is work toward a Right to Vote Constitutional Amendment. Why? Because the courts have said, we don't actually HAVE a right to vote, so when we get denied our individual right to vote, it ain't no big thang.

here's a good article on the subject:

No change in no-account system
November 23, 2004
BY JESSE JACKSON
http://www.suntimes.com/output/jesse/cst-edt-jesse23.html

Four years after the vote scandals of 2000, our system of voting remains a disgrace. Faulty machines that provide no paper record, obscure obstacles to registration, partisan state election officials using their office to exclude voters, millions of votes uncounted, millions more citizens stripped of the right to vote -- the evidence of systemic malfunction is overwhelming.

The trouble starts at the foundation. Americans have no right to vote for president. That sounds crazy, even un-American. We are the oldest constitutional democracy on the face of the earth, so we assume we have the right to vote. Not so. Our Constitution prohibits discrimination in voting on the basis of race or gender, and gives 18-year-olds the right to vote. But it has no clause guaranteeing citizens the right to vote for federal officials.

We're writing constitutions that provide that right in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it does not exist in the United States. One hundred eight countries have the right to vote in their constitutions, but not the United States.

Instead, our Constitution delegates voting rights to the states. State legislatures can appoint the electors who vote for president in the Electoral College any way they want. This all seemed pretty irrelevant until the Florida mess in the 2000 election. There, the Republican-controlled legislature, acting at the behest of Gov. Job Bush, announced that it would simply select a pro-Bush Electoral College delegation if the outcome of the popular vote was still unsettled on Dec. 12.

Then, in the infamous Supreme Court decision on Bush vs. Gore that ordered that the popular vote not be counted, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia declared that, since the individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for the president of the United States, Florida's legislature could do whatever it wanted.

-- more but unfortunately the link no longer works --

You can also hang out in the Election 2004 forum if you don't already.

AND, here are some other sites to check out:
Vote Trust USA
http://www.votetrustusa.org/
What We Do
http://votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31

[election_2004]

33. Thanks Eloriel!

:)

[sunnystarr]

30. Bingo! This issue needs attention and recognition from

the DNC, and Dem Senators and Representatives ... Conyers and other Representatives who have done so much to expose the blatant dirty tactics and election equipment fraud could use more support.

So I think what we can do is apply pressure on them. Give them the facts and dispel the conspiracy theory and sour grapes criticism and perception.

Let them know how we feel betrayed by them. To me it's even worse than what the Rs are doing. I get them ... I don't get the DNC and our congressmen.

When they betray us how can they expect our support? It's just as frustrating as dealing with Bushies who can't see that lies and deception put us into an unnecessary war.

It's hard and depressing enough to be fighting against what's happening to our country. Do we have to fight against our own party in order to have fair and transparent elections too?

First since we don't actually have the right to vote, there should be a constitutional amendment that gives all citizens that right. I remember the SC noting in Bush v Gore that we the people have no constitutional right to vote for electors for President, which kinda says that voting is a sham anyways since evidently that means that states can just say which electors get to vote. Maybe that's why our leaders don't want to touch this issue since it's the states that have the right not the citizens and they just let us think that our little voting exercise means something. If it doesn't go their way they just fix it.

Second, I believe the Bush v Gore decision was based on the equal protection clause (correct me if I'm wrong since I'm only going on memory here) because there were different standards of counting the votes in different areas. So to me the solution to that (after we actually get the right to vote) is to have the exact same voting method in every precinct in the country with the exact same election laws governing every state. Once we have the right to vote, it would be violating the equal protection clause to do otherwise. It seems to me that state and county elections already violate it.

Once we get the right to vote we should do away with electoral college and let the popular vote determine who will be our president - like real democracy.

This is a bi-partisan issue that would benefit all Americans. In the meantime we need to hammer home that elections can and are being stolen.

[blondeatlast]

3. Ideas help; gloom and doom threadjacking turns me off to the cause.

I would care more if I saw some ideas being presented, but all I see is gloom and doom thread hijacking.

Next time you jump in on a thread, how about a few ideas to counter the assault on our civil liberties? That will get you lots of respect from me.

Gang, some of us care A LOT, but we don't know how to be proactive. Help us out here!

I see ways to work around the machines; for instance, massive vote-by-mail campaigns. There must be other ideas--let's hear them, okay? :hi:

[Raiden]

5. Totally agree! We have to get some more representation

before we can change things; quite a dilemma I know -- but self-defeating cynicism won't change a damn thing

[AndyTiedye]

4. First Rule of Staying In Office Under Diebold is Don't Talk About Diebold

The Dems in DC won't talk about Diebold because they don't have enough
votes to actually do anything about Diebold, and if they make noise
about Diebold they'll get Diebolded, and won't be Senators or
Congressmen any longer.

Instead, they declare that the positions of the religious right
are the "center" and move towards it as much as possible. Of
course, the religious right is not the center, but they count the votes.



Fixing the votes around the candidate.

[blondeatlast]

6. We KNOW the problem; we want to know what WE can do.

That's what the OP is asking for.

Clearly the DNC is not as concerned as you want them to be, you've convinced me. I'm not going to turn away from them for that reason alone, though.

What can we do about this? Keep in mind, this isn't my only compelling issue.

[AndyTiedye]

18. They Have to be CAUGHT RED-HANDED Stealing Votes!

We KNOW the problem; we want to know what WE can do

I don't know. I have written to Senators and Congresscritters,
protested, given lots of money to Verified Voting, and tried to
volunteer as an election monitor. None of it seems to have helped.

At this point, about the only thing that could save our democracy
would be to uncover irrefutable evidence of election fraud.
There has been so much of it that they must have gotten sloppy somewhere.

Clearly the DNC is not as concerned as you want them to be

I think they are very concerned. I think they know that the elections are being stolen, but if they say anything about it,
the media will paint them as :tinfoilhat: and their votes will magically disappear on Election Day.
They are :scared: and who can blame them?

I'm not going to turn away from them for that reason alone, though.

I'm not turning away from them either. I just accept that they
haven't got enough seats in Congress to do anything about it.

[blm]

9. I think the DNC needs to EXPOSE WHO CONTROLS the machines.

I think the American people as a whole will be very uncomfortable to find out that two GOP partisans control 80% of the electronic voting machines.

Corruption needs SUNLIGHT.

[election_2004]

11. What do you all think of ELECTION FRAUD SMACKDOWN - - November 2, 2005

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x20590

[blondeatlast]

14. I'm in, posted on Activist thread.

:kick:

[omega minimo]

15. Might help to also address the fact that

MSM TOTALLY buried the election fraud stories at the time.

Raising a ruckus and raising public awareness of what happened and what was at stake could provide enough OUTRAGE at the media blackout to help with a national tipping point.....

With the media and the Congress mute on the subject the American people yawned and rolled over and went back to sleep.

What happened b/w 2000 and 2004 and why weren't there adequate election protections already in place?

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Transparency is the key. So is working from town and county

on up. Every DUer needs to work on straightening out his or her own local voting issues.

Then we need to grow that project so that we can clean up everywhere.

Not saying this will be fast. It could take years. Not saying it could be easy; the GOP will fight us every step of the way.

But if we always went for fast and easy, then I as a woman wouldn't have the right to vote today would I? ;)

-------------------------------------------------------
Fight for Andy! Fight for election reform!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[election_2004]

20. BUMP

<nt>

[autorank]

21. Hmmm...curious

"I'm getting very frustrated with people trying to silence discussion and dialog of 2008 by repeatedly saying, "It won't matter who the Democrats nominate if the voting machines are rigged"...yet, these same people fail to offer any constructive ideas for ACTION in order to accomplish that goal. "

I find this sentence strange. You're creating a straw man and then knocking it down...where the straw man clearly doesn't exist. There are a few folks who make this statement and many who believe it BUT nobody is using this to "silence" discussion. That's what I don't get about your statement. It's almost as though you want to silence discussion on election fraud by saying those who discuss it are marching in lock step to suppress discussion on that issue. The people around here who have problems with election fraud offer all sorts of positive contributions along with their critique. They go out and do things to reform the system while they advocate for issues. Garybeck of Solarbus.Org is a great example. He's figiting fraud, offering alternatives and working on alternative energy issues.

So, I'm wondering, what's your point here anyway; to dismiss concerns with election fraud by painting proponents as some sort of "problem" Democrat--with nothing to offer?; to divert attention away from election fraud?

I don't get this post given the obvious inaccuracies.

[election_2004]

22. No, my point is....

When many of us want to have SERIOUS dialogue about the 2008 nomination, the DUers who don't care who gets the nomination are clearly trying to hijack those threads by bringing up the issue of Election Fraud.

Election Fraud needs to be confronted and rectified. But those people who keep bringing up the subject never actually bother to suggest anything CONSTRUCTIVE or PROACTIVE that can be done to fix the problem. They simply say, "We need to fix the voting machines" and then bungee-jump out of the thread.

I don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that.

I've tried offering some ideas in regard to the Election Fraud problem on other threads. Have they?

[autorank]

29. Got it!

Get back to you later, in a rush on something. My appologies for being a tad snarky.

Partial list: DNC get off their lazy ass and make Voting Rights a clear prority -- open access to everything from macines, soucce code, observation of counting, tabulation, network security profiles, etc. etc. Full, transparent elections. No oursourcing, no excuses of "proprietary code, machiens, etc." That's bullshit. Its our votes.

Local advocates in each county and pricinct to make sure the above is done and to field any and all complaints (in addition to the national reporting system, which should be encouraged).

Strong advocacy on "spoilage" costing black and other minorities 1-3 million votes per presidential election. This is also f'ing insane. "Spoilage" should have been fixed 20 years ago.

This should become part of the fabrid of the Democratic Party. It was in the '60's. People were beaten and died for this. What's wrong now? Nothing. They're either stupid, lazy, or complicit.

As for 2008, CLARK GORE CLARK GORE CLARK GORE in either order.

[dansolo]

23. The solution is to go after the states

The problem with the Democratic Party is that they seem to only focus on the National legislature. The key to solving the problem with voting machines is to get Democrats elected to state legislatures and statewide offices, especially Secretary of State and Governor. Voting is still a state controlled process. Just think how the last two presidential elections would have been without Katherine Harris and Ken Blackwell running things in FL and OH.

[Kalish]

24. it strikes me as an excuse, a catchphrase

I hardly take the issue seriously anymore. I see it as hype. There's no evidence such a thing took place in '04. None. Zero. Zilch.

[eridani]

31. No, there's merely probable cause

When votes are counted in secret and they won't let the public look at the process, OF COURSE there's no clearcut proof! Jeebus!

[bvar22]

25. Unlike you, I have read many fixes listed in DETAIL on DU.

Most of the fixes focused on these areas:

1)A Voter Verified Paper Ballot (this even has a DU acronym VVPB) is issued to each voter which is then deposited in a locked box which remains secure until the vote is certified. If a recount is necessary or requested, the Paper Ballots are used.

2)A NATIONWIDE standard and ballot to be used in conjunction with #1

3) Non-partisan Election Commissions (NO Campaign Manager/Sec of State)

Of course, none of this will go anywhere without the Democratic Party Leadership actually assuming a leadership role.
Many, many DUers have been involved in petitions and letter writing campaigns prior to 2004 lobbying the Party Leadership to address this issue.

If YOU would like to actually DO SOMETHING instead of bitch, YOU organize a letter writing campaign or petition to the Dem Leadership to address the issue.

BTW: I don't think it is necessary to offer a FIX in order to identify something is BROKEN and demand to have it fixed. Identifying the PROBLEM IS THE first step TO FIXING THE PROBLEM.
When you call the PLUMBER to report your toilet is broken, does HE demand that you offer a plan to fix it?

[election_2004]

34. People don't bring this up in the hijacked threads...

They merely utter, "No Democrat is going to get elected without fair elections" and then hippity-hop out of the thread without another word.

What I would suggest is having a ready-made "rundown" list of feasible solutions, especially for the benefit of lurkers who are visiting DU for the first time.

Everyone is already aware of the problem. Now let's DO something about it!

[newscott]

26. Here's my solution. Paper ballots hand counts.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

28. And external 3d party auditing that is accepted and has power to overturn

the result.

[marions ghost]

32. yep

paper ballots and external 3rd party auditing and power to overturn. This is what is needed. :thumbsup:
-------------------------

EXCERPT FROM "None Dare Call it Stolen" (Harper's August 05 by Mark Crispin Miller) --

"In Butler County the Democratic candidate for State Supreme Court took 5,347 more votes than Kerry did...In Franklin County, Bush received nearly 4,000 extra votes from one computer, and in Miami County, just over 13,000 votes appeared in Bush's column after all precincts had reported...In Perry County the number of Bush votes somehow exceeded the number of registered voters, leading to voter turnout rates as high as 124 percent. Youngstown, perhaps to make up the difference, reported negative 25 million votes...The machines in heavaily Democratic Lucas County kept going haywire, prompting the county's elections director to admit that prior tests of the machines had failed...In Hamilton County many absentee voters could not cast a democratic vote for president because county workers, in taking Ralph Nader's name off many ballots, also happened to remove John Kerry's name. The Washington Post reported that in Mahoning County "25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column" but it did not think to ask why."


(more)
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1383

And we should TRUST any election in Ohio? (or elsewhere)??????????? :-(

[election_2004]

35. Excellent suggestions/brainstorming so far

We need to keep them flowing...the more, the better.

[ProudDad]

36. Attack them with axes

It worked for Carrie Nation...

[loyalsister]

37. Run for county clerk

and actually find out how this process works!!

County clerks buy election equipment and hire anyone who actually deals with the voting equipment.

They get funds from various government resources.

Try to get those jobs if you want to help.
Attend any county government meetings you can.
Get to know all of your local city, county, and state public officials.

The more centralized anything related to voting becomes, the more likely you will see fraud.
Currently, the systems are decentralized so that there would have to be a lot of secrets kept.
You'd have to bump a lot of people off....