Talked to an unemployed social worker who voted for Bush today

[LittleClarkie]

She said she liked how strong Bush talked about fighting terrorism. And though she'd been a life-long Democrat, she said she didn't like that Kerry flip flopped and he couldn't keep us safe from terrorism she thought.

Re: Bush's strong position, I told her that it was easy to talk a good game, but that our borders are porus, or food supply is vunerable, our ports are vunerable, soldiers are being sent to war without armor to a place we didn't have to go, and there aren't even enough soldiers to finish the job.

She said it was starting to look like Vietnam over there.

I asked her why she was taking the Republicans word about a Democrat (flip flop talking points). She said she'd noticed that he'd changed his positions on some things. I asked, but if there was 10 years between one position and the next, then perhaps he'd just rethought the position. What would be wrong with that?

She said, maybe that was true, but that he didn't express himself clearly enough and should have explained those changes in positions in simple language. You know I love him, but he does tend to lose a person when he tries to go too far in depth as to why he did something, what he was thinking, what the background was, and so on. He wants you to know how he came to the conclusion he did. Sadly, he couldn't do that in 10 words or less.

She was a social worker. Now she's unemployed. Their budget was cut. She also has medical conditions up the wazoo, and his barely holding on with Cobra and food assistance and working at my apartment complex as a cleaning lady for rent credit and some money. She can find no medical assistance, or rent assistance unless she moves. She doesn't even have the money for that. She's not a deadbeat, she figures, so why won't they help her get on her feet.

She loved Bill Clinton. Love, love, loved. She would be thrilled if Hillary ran, she said. She just wished Bill could run for another term.

So maybe with folks like this woman, Hillary has a chance. We forget that no everyone is wonky like us. If enough people have fond memories of Bill Clinton, then that might just transfer to Hillary.

As far as Kerry, I guess I couldn't expect people to look at him as closely as I did. Because if you didn't, you just ended up buying the Republican rhetoric, swallowing it whole. Or else, why would she have used the EXACT words "flip flop".

That was almost like a campaign flashback. If I never hear that fucking phrase again, I'd be happy. Esp. from a Democrat.

[carnie_sf]

1. I can't believe

a social worker would vote for *

[LittleClarkie]

2. And he repaid her by cutting her funding

part of me want to say "stupid bitch!"

But at 90 lbs. she's in a pretty pathetic state. She has fibromialsia (sp?), bladder ulcers, and various other physical stuff going wrong. Her medication bill is ridiculous.

[City Lights]

11. Me neither!

:wtf:

[southpaw]

13. I know some social workers who vote repub...

Most began their careers as liberal idealists who wanted to help the struggling poor. One in particular said she turned conservative after years of watching the people she wanted to help refusing jobs and milking the system for more benefits.

Not to say such things don't happen, but I asked her to consider the true scenario, which most likely resembles this:

A young, under-educated single mother is receiving government benefits that barely afford her and her children a modest place to live, food and clothing. She is offered a minimum wage job that requires her to work evenings, which means she will be bringing home less than her current benefits AND she will now have to provide daycare for her kids. Evening daycare is almost impossible to find and is typically more expensive than 9-5 daycare. After considering the feasibility of this new arrangement, the young parent must refuse the job.

Her response was typical of someone who has been brainwashed by talk radio: "They're just sorry and lazy."

Sad...

[frankly_fedup2]

58. Exactly right. As soon as you get that first paycheck, they cut any

assistance you may have been getting off immediately. Heck, you cannot even have a car worth more than $2000, or you are too well off for any assistance.

This was back in the late 70's when I divorced my first hubby and had a small child. He refused to pay support, so I was told by my college counselor to go to Social Services. I was able to get ADC (Aid for Dependent Children) of $180.00 a month. Also, there are rumors that some keep having kids to get another say $180.00 a month. Nope! Don't work that way. If a woman is getting what I got, then had another child, she MIGHT get an extra $70 added to her monthly stipend. So that BS that the right tries to feed to all those good Christians out there, you know, the ones that wouldn't give a homeless person a sandwich, but would pray for them in the snow.

Anyway, I had gone back to college, was getting $180.00 a month to live on. I had no car, nothing. I had to move back in with my parents (that was the only way I could make it with a child and still go to school and finish my degree). I worked on the work-study program for 20 hours a week at minimum wage, and since it was work study, they did not take my ADC away. Man I was living large then.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. That really pisses me off!

When people assume someone who is homeless is just lazy! I hate that! I don't see how someone can call themselves a Christian and hate social programs because they help people who need help to get started on their life again. They're not made to fully support people but just enough to get started again. I remember earlier this year when Clinton opened his library there was a woman who was telling how in Clinton's years she became homeless and poor, but with the help of his welfare program she was able to get help and start her own business and now she employ's people who were like she was.

[Misskittycat]

26. If she's smart enough to be a social worker, she should be smart enough

to understand a bit of depth in a candidate's postions over a long career. Just how lazy are people? I know, I know -- really lazy. How can so-called educated people be so deliberately ignorant?

[FreedomAngel82]

65. Like Mike Malloy says...

the media in this country is made to dumb down America. Ever since my prorities have changed as I've gotten older I don't watch much tv. I get my news here from DU and other news sites/blogs I've learned to trust. I can make better decisions from what someone else tells me. I enjoy Jon Stewart and AAR for entertainment. It's all about the money.

[Cha]

40. Sounds like it was all very

surfacey and she didn't really find out for herself..there's a lesson to be learned here.

I'm grateful for DU, buzzflash, and other progressive blogs for enriching my life. I had two years of corporate media after the 2000 selection and I couldn't wait until I got a computer so I could look up alternative news sources that I had read about in "The Nation".

[FreedomAngel82]

66. Exactly

You have to do your own research and read for yourself about a person. That's what I've learned. Not just to vote for someone because the media tells you or a friend or family member or whatever. Or because they spew some rightwing pro-life nonsense crap and don't act on it.

[sandnsea]

3. The Noise Machine works

That's about all the word "flip flop" proves. Just like Gore the Bore, Slick Willie & the Lincoln Bedroom for Sale, Dukakis in a Tank, and on back to FDR Loves Communists. If rank and file Democrats don't figure out their game and become immune to it, it'll always be something. Hillary's a liberal lesbian, Clark almost started WWIII, Edwards the Trial Lawyer, they'll come up with something in 2008 and that woman will be repeating it too.

[lancdem]

9. Except she didn't buy the stuff the Repukes said

about the Clintons, because she still likes them. And I'll bet she voted for Gore in 2000.

I'm actually not that upset with her; I think terrorism was more of an issue than many realize, and Kerry had some real problems convincing people he should get their vote. Yes, the media was a hurdle, but he knew that going in.

[LittleClarkie]

It was indeed "the terrorism stupid"

And Kerry didn't start making inroads on that issue until the first debate (and maybe the NY University speech that no one saw).

The debate presented him unfiltered on a subject he knew very well, but the Republicans assumed it would be his weakest subject, what with being a Dem and all.

We got the greatest influx of campaign workers right after that debate. We were so stoked.

I still remember the Repubs around me whining about how the questions weren't fair and that Bush must have been tired blah blah blah. It was glorious.

[lancdem]

16. Yes, the debates were Kerry's high point

[sandnsea]

19. They didn't overturn flip flop

Even though he did good in the debates, Kerry's foreign policy knowledge should have been made a bigger part of the campaign, very early on. Once that hurdle had been crossed, the economy and domestic issues would have been a breeze. My understanding is that they banked on making the election about the economy and domestic security. They did a good job, but it would have been a knock out if they'd hammered on foreign policy from the very beginning.

[LittleClarkie]

25. I could slap Shrum and Cahill for that

They had a candidate who's good points they hardly touched on. He was much stronger than many knew.

[sandnsea]

33. I agree

Although I don't know whether it was Shrum or Clinton advisers. They were always big on the "economy", after all. And they never did understand why dealing with Vietnam was important, for Kerry AND as it pertained to Iraq.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Indeed, if nothing else

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake" entered the popular conciousness during this campaign. People seemed to pick up on that, liberal columnists at least that I saw.

People are definitely thinking Iraq looks like Vietnam. So it was a good contribution.

[FreedomAngel82]

67. LOL

Bush was tired? Hello, what about Kerry? If he can do it surely the glorious leader can. :eyes: How ridiculous. Kerry has to work harder to convience people to vote for him. In all of the debates Kerry kicked W's ass.

[hippiegranny]

43. absolutely

and until our side learns how to play the "name game" we are going to be at a disadvantage. I for one think the word "AWOL" should have been used by our side every chance they got.

[sandnsea]

51. oh yes

Make the entire campaign about whether Kerry lied about his medals or Bush was AWOL. If politics ever gets reduced to that, I'll never vote again.

[nookiemonster]

82. Sad but true.

Repeating a message ad nauseum works effectively for people who don't bother to know the facts. RW hacks know this, and use it whenever possible.

As evil as this administration is, you gotta give em props. They know it works.

[buff2]

4. She voted for a moron who cares about NO ONE but himself....

She's getting exactly what she voted for. I don't feel a damn bit sorry for her. Anyone who voted for that smirking idiot deserves to suffer.

[Cynot]

10. No, he doesn't only care for himself.

He cares for other rich people, but he doesn't care for the average working person who makes this country what it is.

[Contrary1]

5. When I asked my thought-challenged sisters-in-law

what Kerry had flip flopped on, neither could come up with an example.
Catchy phrase, which they bought, and didn't even know why.

Pathetic.

[lancdem]

12. Kerry never did enough to rebut the flip-flop label

The Repukes know how memes work, and this one stuck, unfortunately.

[Cha]

41. And yet..

"President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief"

snips~

September 2, 2004, Updated

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus."

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes."

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects."

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas."

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states."

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed."

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout."

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach."

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature."


The next one #5 is Abortion..
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=118263

[faithnotgreed]

21. its just all so pathetic isnt it

when they cant even tell you why they voted one way or give you an example of why bush is better on anything

sheeple
often times when they are just ignorant folks who are putting their energy into keeping the household together i do feel quite sorry for them
they are just hard working and dont understand that they are being deliberately bamboozled

now the people who crow about their stance or glad to have their taxes cut or how were fighting them over there... etc etc
them i dont feel sorry for though im sure i will when all this catches up to them

but so many others truly dont have any idea how they are being cut off at the knees by this cabal and until it really hits them hard then they dont seem to care

poor things
maybe for them ignorance is the only bit of bliss they have

[eleny]

6. She sounds like another stubborn dumbass

Who can't admit that she was suckered into make a huge mistake.

[OzarkDem]

29. Its difficult to feel sympathy

for people who are so gullible and shallow in their standards for candidates. They must have really low self esteem to allow themselves to be treated so badly.

[Nikki Stone 1]

7. People like this shouldn't be deciding who the candidates are

This woman lost her livelihood because she voted against her own self interest, based on media impressions--emotional, knee-jerk, shallow and passive--instead of getting herself informed on the issues. While her tragedy is sad, some of it is self-inflicted. I feel more sorry for the social workers who knew what was on the line and voted Dem and lost their jobs during Shrub's tenure.

Why someone like this should decide our next candidate for President, I can't even imagine. On the other hand, there are lots of people like this and you may have a point in their affection for the Clintons. However, I'd prefer for this woman to get informed instead of catering to her media-oriented perception of the candidates.

[ChiciB1]

22. Gotta Keep Pushing The ECONOMY Agenda!!

Sometimes that's ALL some people understand. Talk to them about the war, DSM, Rover et al and they get MIGO, but the economy hits them right where it hurts!

Just like "the corrupt ones" never planned for an exit strategy, they also did not plan for millions to be without the basics needed to live and take care of oneself!

There are 2 families who I've given quite a bit of money to who still can't get ahead. It's gonna hit home! Too bad, the Democrats in Congress aren't speaking out!!

I'm white, however it seems that many of different racial backgrounds are the only ones taking a strong stand against this administration. What a shame. And Shame, Shame on the Democratic leaders who are sitting up there in their air-conditioned offices and doing SQUAT!!!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

27. The economy takes second place to terrorism

That's why Shrub got his second term, methinks.

[ChiciB1]

31. I Wonder for How Long...

they've already changed the name!!! And it's one that's MUCH harder to remember!!!

[LittleClarkie]

32. Yawp

Without 9/11, Kerry woulda had a chance, I think.

But people have bought into the cowboy persona of a man who's afraid of horses.

[Bethany Rockafella]

8. She loved Bill Clinton yet she voted for Bush*?

Crazy!

[grumpy old fart]

14. Must have just loved his looks and the way he talked, she wasn't listening

Lots of women loved Willie for no other reasons than that. We are on shallow nation, no doubt.

[lancdem]

20. She's a lifelong Dem, not a Repuke

I get the distinct impression from the post she likes the Clintons for more than just "shallow" reasons.

It's her vote for Bush that's harder to fathom, although not impossible to believe given her terrorism worries.

[Jacobin]

15. That happened quite a lot

Kerry rubs a lot of people the wrong way, and for people who vote based on 'feel' and personality and who don't consider the consequences of voting for raving lunatics, its a real problem.

[LittleClarkie]

23. Hey, right after Clark bit it in the primaries

I was one apathetic voter, let me tell you. Oh joy, Mr. Styrofoam, I thought.

But the more I found out about Bush, the more I was driven into the arms of Kerry. I was determined to find something I liked about the guy so I could campaign for him properly.

I rather succeeded.

[wisteria]

64. Dems voting for Bush!

I really don't think that happened in large numbers. I can't imagine how people could say Kerry rubbed them the wrong way. I think the suggestion that this was a serious problem is this past election is incorrect. I happened to know more than a dozen Repubs that were sick of Bush and voted for Kerry. You give me the impression you didn't like Kerry from the beginning for the very same reasons you suggest other superficial voters didn't vote for him. Who actually was your candidate?

[rniel]

17. I sometimes forget

That not everybody is like me and spends all day on the internet reading blogs. In fact the only news they probably read is People magazine. They form their opinions in a vacuum.

[spooky3]

18. Sounds like a totally emotional voter.

She likes Bush, so she justifies everything he does without a basis for it. She loves Clinton, so she wants him back in office indirectly through Hillary.

[lancdem]

24. It sounds like she has some buyer's remorse now, however

[spooky3]

28. it's hard to tell--it sounded to me that she kept arguing with

the OP's rational points. I got the feeling that, faced with the same choice again, she'd vote for Bush again.

[Nikki Stone 1]

34. Doesn't she as a social worker care about the other lives her vote hurts?

Even now that she knows some of what this administration is capable of?

[LittleClarkie]

38. Her uncle's girlfriend's daughter is staying at her apartment

While her parents are getting a divorce, purely out of the goodness of her social worker heart.

She cares still. She's just not seeing all the cause and effect yet, I think.

[Nikki Stone 1]

39. But it's not a hard cause&effect to see. It's pretty obvious.

But I do understand how hard it is to make people see what is right in front of their noses.

[podnoi]

44. Nope. She is a cynic. She needs to get another job

[kikiek]

30. If Bush had his way her job wouldn't even exist. Social workers who vote

for Bush are beyond my understanding. The few I knew fell victim to the "pro life" propaganda. Didn't think about that he kills em once they're out of the womb.

[emdee]

35. How can people take Reps word on any subject?

I asked many Reps to give direct quotes proving their beliefs of what Kerry thought. They always ended up admitting that the Reps took his words out of context or put words in his mouth. Shouldn't they seek out the whole story when the tidbit known sways a vote? It gives me a headache to think about how many votes were swayed just because the voter swallowed an obvious lie.

:rant:

emdee

[LittleClarkie]

42. She said Kerry was boring and monotoned

so she must not have listened too closely.

But she said she worked with troubled children, and we agreed that if such things were being cut, that there would be consequences later. Troubled children become troubled adults.

She half-believed that the money was going to defense, but I kept asking the question anyway, "Where is the money REALLY going?"

[Nikki Stone 1]

46. And the Shrub is a great orator? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on now, what was it about Shrub that appealed to her? Maybe she has a thing for stupidity?

[LittleClarkie]

48. He said stupid things with conviction

And she bought into that phony strength.

[Nikki Stone 1]

50. I doubt it was even conviction, just Pavlovian training

They threw him a fish and he learned how to say "We are at war"

They threw him another fish and he learned how to say, "We are in a struggle."

They threw him a third fish, and he learned how to say, "We are at war again."

[rexcat]

37. Anyone who voted for Bush*...

does not get any sympathy from me. Fuck them all!

[LTRS]

45. You need to face the facts about Kerry

... he was a godawful candidate. He called it "nuanced" but he couldn't make himself clear and he sure as hell fed into the flip flopper thing with his calibrating ways. Bush is a flip flopper too, but you would never know if you listened to him talk.

[LittleClarkie]

47. Did he ever use that word

or is that how folks tried to defend him.

Kerry's problem was that he didn't speak in soundbites. But what you call "facts" are really your opinion. I have a different opinion. Good candidate with a campaign that didn't show off his best attributes.

They should have shown all the areas in which he has experience. They should have talked about his years as prosecutor. They should have brought up BCCI and Iran Contra. He's got credibility in so many areas, among them small business issues, foreign policy, the environment, gay rights, and on and on.

Great candidate, less than stellar campaign. The campaign and indeed the Dem Party as a whole sold him short, almost as if they'd written off 2004 and were already looking toward 2008.

[LTRS]

52. Oh come on, be real!

Kerry is a career politician and the guy that wants us to elect him president. There is no "they" about it and blaming his "Campaign." He is a big boy and in charge of his campaign, not beholden to it. Nothing great about him as a candidate, including the campaign HE ran.

You know what bothers me about people who won't face facts about Kerry and other dems as well? It just means we are doomed to repeating the same old tired mistakes.

No more wussy candidates!!

[LittleClarkie]

53. Sorry. I see different facts.

And it bothers me as well when folks skim over the ones I see. Sucks, doesn't it. Comes mostly from not giving the guy a good look. I grant you, folks shouldn't have had to do that much work. But once again, apparently folks like Shrum thought the public was too dumb to understand stuff like BCCI. Or so he said, anyway.

How much time did you spend looking at our candidate during the last election, anyway? Read any books? Articles? Specials on the telly? I did. I went from apathetic ABB to just loving the guy. Sorry about that.

[LTRS]

55. Obviously you're infatuated with him

... to the point where you don't even care if he was an able candidate. The fact that you are still showing a huge "I love you, John" picture of him in every post is a bit strange, but yeah, you are clearly head over heels crushing on the guy.

But you didn't answer me -- how could he manage the job of president if he couldn't stand up to his own campaign people, or didn't realize they were wrong? That tends to prove he is a wussy. The American people aren't blind.

And yes, I know just about all there is to know about Kerry.

[LittleClarkie]

56. By studying what exactly. Or did you just glance and say

"I know what this guy is about."

Oh, there was a question in there? Sorry, thought it was rhetorical.

I think he was a bit parochial in his thinking. Considering he'd never conducted a nation election before, he let his advisors lead more. Such is life for someone who's never done something before. You try something. You fuck up. You learn. We could benefit from what both Gore and Kerry have learned about conducting national campaigns I reckon.

If you want to write off my support as mere infatuation, go ahead, if you think that people can't support him without something as frivolous as a crush. I know differently. The John Kerry group is a touchstone for me full of some very well informed folk who aren't blinded by what they only think they know.

[LTRS]

79. I have been an democratic activist for 20 yrs

I gave over $2K to his campaign, raised much more than that, spent over 100 hrs canvassing for him and another 40-50 phone banking. That doesn't count the amount of time I spent listening to his speeches, reading what he wrote, and talking to his campaign staff. I even had one on one 30-40 minute conversations with 3 of the primary candidates (separately) and dinner with Terry McAuliffe, who admitedly was only interested in speaking with me to help raise money.

I'm not talking out my ass here.

[wisteria]

72. No, you know all you want to know about Kerry.

Bush didn't run his campaign either. He took direction from Rove and others. Candidates usually let their managers manage their campaigns.Thats what they hire them for. For your information, Kerry has accepted the full responsibility for his campaigns short comings as any leader would. He has only mentioned the laziness of the media and the role they played in the election.
Rove had four years to plan Bush's 2004 campaign, and even with all that planning, Kerry came damn close to beating him.
Why don't you face some facts.

[LTRS]

80. No, sorry, but I am extremely involved in dem politics

.... and very well informed. See my post on top of this. I live and breath this stuff. Not talking out my ass here.

[LTRS]

81. BTW, Kerry and Shrum, et al had just as much time as Bush

and Rove to plan a campaign. Until you folks stop making excuses for bad candidates we will continue to lose. You get what you accept.

[LittleClarkie]

84. Horseshit

Really. Horseshit.

Rove and Bush knew he was running for re-election as soon as he won the LAST election, giving them 4 years to plan. And I imagine Rove did.

Kerry and his primary staff knew they were running in the primary. One strategy started 2 years in or maybe alittle before with advanced PACing and such. Then when he'd won the primaries and had Shrum on board, they knew they were running a presidential campaign. A second strategy.

The Democratic Party needed to be getting ready for the next campaign early on. I'm not convinced they did that.

Some of the blame does indeed go to Kerry, some to the Party, you, me and everyone else involved.

Until YOU folks stop trying to pin all, or even most, of the blame on what you saw as a bad candidate, and don't accept that the party as a whole needs help, then we indeed will continue to lose.

The Republicans were organized and lined up like little soldiers. While I don't expect our side to march in lockstep (they won't do it anyway) we must be more organized than we were. That was at least part of the problem. The Party as a whole.

If you can't see that our grassroots organizing is at least PART of the problem, then it is YOU who must face the fact that we will continue to lose. WE lost against a beatable candidate. Not just Kerry, though him too. WE. And WE need to do something about it.

Bush the candidate sucked shit through a straw. But that never mattered, did it. He flip flopped, he misspoke, he could only appear before canned audiences. But the media was on his side, and the Republicans were organized as hell.

Erase that from the equation at your own risk.

[LTRS]

87. No, not horseshit

The party did massive voter reg before the rethugs even started. We had more people phone banking and canvassing in many more states than they did. We raised more money earlier (and later) than ever before. We had more 527 money than they did. In fact, we had more of everything than they did except corporate cash and voters.

So no, it is absolutely uninformed bullshit to blame this loss on the party machine or its volunteers. Complete, absolute and total bullshit.

We lost because our candidate made several HUGE mistakes:

1. He simply could not decide how to coherently address the biggest issue in the election -- the Iraq war.

2. He hired a dumbass like Shrum who has never won a major election, and then listened to him like he didn't have a brain of his own.

3. He ignored access to voting issues in swing states that he was warned about well in advance.

4. He completely wussied out when they attacked his service record. Had he released his full service record before the election, as he has since done, the record would have shown that many of the people who were attacking him had praised him repeatedly during his service. NOW THAT was a colossal mistake!

Some blaming everyone BUT the main person responsible.

[LittleClarkie]

89. How do you know what the Republicans were doing? Serious question.

You don't believe the stories of Rove organizing church or gun show registration drives? If they weren't doing some sort of organizing, then their whole rational for how they managed to win despite all of our organizing goes out the window. That was how they accounted for how they pulled so far ahead, esp. the Evangelical vote.

Do you not believe that? You seem pretty well informed. So I'm not arguing here. Just picking your brain.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let me just say one thing more. If Kerry is part of the reason I'm inspired to continue as an activist in the party after this first election, don't piss on my Wheaties.

[LTRS]

92. Of course the rethugs were organizing

... but that doesn't mean we weren't as well. We beat the hell out them in voter reg in Oh, Fl, and other places. The party also made massive improvement to the "demzilla" database. We never had such excellent information for phone banking and canvassing, and we had massive collabortion with other progressive orgs so that efforts weren't duplicated, wasting resources.

And I'm not trying to "piss on your wheaties." You and I will support ANY candidate that ends up being the nominee, I am sure. Call me partisan to the core, but the worst dem is better than the best rethug as far as I am concerned.

BUT, if we want to win we have to start picking better candidates. Kerry is a good person with good dem values, but he was a horrible at messaging. And you simply cannot win the office of president in this country if you appear to vacilliate on issues -- particularly not after 9/11.

[LittleClarkie]

95. "Kerry is a good person with good dem values...

but he was a horrible at messaging."

Yeah, even I was bored until he turned into the Incredible Hulk in the last month or two.

Okay, now see, that's all I was saying. He's a good guy. Had good values, and good experience.

But we don't elect the best guy. We elect the best campaigner. Which sucks out loud.

And I will indeed campaign for the next nominee. But I will be like my Republican friends were about Dole, if on our side it turns out to be Hillary. Not that she's terrible, just mechanical. There's no art in her politics.

So far, since the election, I've volunteered for our party newsletter, and to man the Dem booth at our state fair, joined the party, and donated when I could to both Kerry's PAC and the DNC. I think if I don't try to keep my hands in, I'll go nuts.

And from what my party membership chairman tells me, I'm not the only one in our area. We're committed Blues in a very Red area, but we might just be starting to show that we are an activist force.

So we're really on the same side, ain't we? Truce.

[LTRS]

98. Okay, I can go along with that

"Okay, now see, that's all I was saying. He's a good guy. Had good values, and good experience."

Yes, absolutely. You are right. I don't mean to be too hard on him, but I gotta say, the bloom comes off the rose when you actually get involved in this stuff, work your butt off, and then see the candidate do something unwise.

Short anecdote: I had been working my butt off for Dean, and had contributed the limits on money, and then I'm on this business trip, sitting in a hotel, and I see the Dean scream live and in the moment. And I KNEW at that very moment, before the pundits even started yapping, that all the work I had done and all the money I have given was all going to go for naught. It just gets frustrating!

So yeah, truce. Definitely on the same side. :)

[barb162]

91. I think there are a lot of people like this social worker; they easily

bought into the monkey-rove crap; they believed all the "good" stuff about Bush (his talking tough on terror even though his anti-terror plans were ridiculous), all the bad stuff on Kerry (flip-flopper)

[wisteria]

68. Excuse me, but Kerry wasn't a wussy.

There are many people who would have run the other way had we run someone like Dean. Most of America looks to elect a sensible, well mannered candidate. A true leader. Kerry's campaign was directed at all Americans, not just progressive liberals. I think it is obvious you didn't support Kerry all along. Obviously, you had someone else in mind for President.So sorry, your guy wasn't the most well rounded appealing candidate running at the time.

[LittleClarkie]

69. Anyone who can find out he's got cancer, have it nuked,

then continue on at the pace he set for himself was one tough son of a bitch. That fact alone tells me that those who think he didn't want it badly enough are full of shit. But then there are those who hold it against him that he wanted it. So if he didn't want it enough, that's bad. If he wanted it too much, that was bad.

Let's face it, no matter what, if the name John Kerry is involved, it's just gonna be a bad thing for some people.

[wisteria]

73. I agree, its their lose though!

There candidates couldn't hold a candle to Kerry. Let them lay down in writing all their candidate's accomplishments and how dedicated their candidate's actually were to this country. For most, I think it was nothing more then a power trip.

[LittleClarkie]

76. Oh, I think some were genuine enough

The next crop makes me wonder, though.

But still, he was the most qualified to be President. Considering we've seen what happens when you put an inexperienced boob in the WH (the inexperienced boob is in danger of being hyjacked and not even knowing it) I think it would be a good thing to have someone in there like Kerry, or even Poppy Bush in his day, who could look at people like Cheney and the neocons and know enough to say "No."

[LTRS]

85. Most qualified to be president? LOL!

The guy you claim was not at fault for the crappy campaign he ran with NO response to the swift boat smears until it was far too late? The guy who couldn't decide if he supported the war or not? The guy who according to you is so befuddled by campaign politics that he HAS to do whatever that dumbass Shrum tells him to do?

You say he was the victim of a bad campaign that was the fault of others, but you want a guy who couldn't figure out that he was getting bad advice about a campaign to be in charge of running the country?

If that is the best we can do we are truly fuked.

[LittleClarkie]

90. Most qualified to be president

isn't always the most qualified to win a campaign. One of the great paradoxes of our time.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wisteria]

59. The media had a hand in this also.

I also think that Terry McCuliff (sp) a Clinton alli, didn't go all out for Kerry.And getting back to the media, even back then, the media was speculating that Hillary and Bill were hoping Kerry didn't win so she could run in 2008.

[politicasista]

54. Cool Rovian talking points. Yawn

:boring:

[wisteria]

57. You are wrong! Kerry was a good candidate.

He just wasn't a cookie cutter, "good ol boy" like Bush and Clinton. Nothing wrong with changing an opinion on a position. it represents growth and open mindedness. Oh, and Bush doesn't change his mind, his administration changes its mind. Bush is to pigheaded to ever consider changing his mind.
I want to see a real leader become President, I'm tired of these phony, "just like you and me candidates". Clinton may have a personality easy to warm up to, but Clinton was always for Clinton first and much of his charm has warn thin after more than four years to contemplate his faults and failures.
I would still vote for Kerry over any other candidate interested in running in 2008.

[LTRS]

86. Nothing wrong with changing an opinion on a position?

"Nothing wrong with changing an opinion on a position. it represents growth and open mindedness."

Um, no. Not when you do it every 2 weeks. Then it simply represents a wussy who is afraid to stand up for what he believes in.

[second edition]

96. What candidate did you follow?

Kerry didn't change his mind every two weeks. You seem to have been listening to misleading outright incorrect repub claims.

[LTRS]

97. If we can't face this, we are doomed to repeat it

You're a partisan dem. I'm a partisan dem. If his message was clear to you and me it was because we were already sold. Did he REALLY change his mind every two weeks? No, but he sure sounded like he was, because he could not settle on a coherent message about the war.

I honestly think he was trying to be too clever by half. He felt like he had to vote for the war to run as a credible candidate (he certainly wasn't "decieved" by Bush as he claimed - if we knew it was BS, he certainly should have), and then when the grassroots of the party turned out to be right -- the country had been suckered into war by lies -- he had to be against the war or risk losing the base. Yes, most of the base would have voted for him a la ABB, but he needed more than their votes. He needed their money and their massive volunteerism.

He couldn't find a way to reconcile those two things and kept digging the whole deeper instead of climbing out of it. I don't know if he could have climbed out of it, which is why he should have voted his conscience in the first place. Politician do the dumbest things!

[journalist3072]

49. One more thing you need to tell her....

Regarding "flip-flopping." You need to explain to her that Sen. Kerry understands coure correction. He understands that sometimes you start down one path, realize you are on the wrong path, and change course. It's called course correction.

Tell your friend that George Bush is so wedded to his own ideas, even when the facts tell him he's dead wrong.

And George Bush is the ultimate flip flopper. Days after September 11, he said he wanted Osama dead or alive. Then months later, after Osama still hadn't been found, Bush said he didn't know or care where Osama was. And LIED about saying it during one of the Presidential debates last year.

[Raiden]

60. I agree that Kerry could've been much more coherent

But he did talk about how vulnerable we still were. Had she payed attention, she would've seen that, no problem.

[wisteria]

61. Look, IMO Kerry had to fight the long held belief that Dems

are weak on defense and opposed to war and Repubs are pro defense and quick to wage war. Clinton didn't help matters when he cut defense spending. This last election was about the Iraq war and security concerns mostly and morality to a smaller degree. Kerry fought back hard, but he had a lot to over come. Everything seemed to work against him. He made an impressive showing, he came up short,but no candidate in history has ever defeated a sitting President during a war-illegal or not. Thinking about all of this again makes me angry for what could have been. I truly believe he deserves another shot at it. He has the experience and knowledge, concern for people and love of this country necessary to become a great President.

[LittleClarkie]

62. Amen

And I don't think either you or I are delusional for thinking so either.

[Robeson]

70. A Social Worker votes for Bush. World turned upside down.

[ProudDad]

71. Hillary is NOT Bill

Hillary is a hard-core corporate lawyer who would do anything, say anything she needs to get power. She seems to have the standard lack of a moral compass that nearly all politicians are blessed with.

Bill, in spite of his faults and they are many, was a Constitutional Law Professor -- he has a respect for the Constitution and it's attempt to codify basic principles of fairness and justice. His problems were that he was a suck-up to his "betters" (the corporate big-wigs) and couldn't keep his dick in his pants.

[wisteria]

74. A little blunt, but you are right on target as far as I'm concerned! n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Ok this wil sound cold, but she voted exactly for what she got

no sympathy from me

[FrenchieCat]

77. She bought into the Corporate Media's message

on Kerry is all.

She and millions of others are totally cluesless......

[kodi]

78. working class folk who don't vote their pocketbook deserve what they get

which is nothing.

[Vickers]

88. Like others, I find it difficult to dredge up sympathy for her

Enjoy your Kool Aid, honey, you helped make it.

[StayOutTheBushes]

93. Bush was in an election today?

[LittleClarkie]

94. Bad-um-bum

No doomkoff, I spoke to her today...errr... yesterday.