Reframing the debate: Right back at ya neo-cons

[The Straight Story]

Owning the means of production - what it says to me and how it leads to reframing the debate:

I find this of interest when dealing with how people see and view socialism in the U.S.(this from personal conversations and board surfing).

Here we have the appearance that a keystone of a great many things is related to owning the means of production (to an extent). This, from what I have seen in my time, is the reason when people hear the term 'socialist/socialism' they get a little freaked. If the government owned the MOP then they have more power then the people and effecting change becomes difficult.

Now to reframe the debate we take the other side of things and start kicking ass with it: corp. repubs (or perhaps corp neo-cons). People fear losing power to others and having it concentrated, especially when that power is 'government' based.

So we need to explain over time how it was the dems who have tried to put power into the hands of the many (unions, et al), tempered with good social based programs to benefit the many (and hence empowering them) and it has been the dems who wanted a balance of power between people, companies, and government whereas the neo-cons want to eliminate social things which help many, bust up unions, and concentrate power into both government and corporations.

We are the party of freedom.We are the party of ALL the people who make up this country. We realize and understand there are many different people with many different abilities and talents and if you are a member of this country you are worth more than what you can make in dollars. That is compassion to me. It is not a desire to hold some back from getting more, it is the desire to insure all have a basic life wherein they can live, eat, have healthcare, and so on.

We as a society agree that at birth we have certain rights and protections - because we consider ourselves civilized. As the world has changed the needs have changed and extending the rights we already have is a move towards more freedom for all, not less.

The neo-cons want a world based solely on performance and competition where the resources we all need to live are controlled by those who can own them and sell them to us for a profit. This versus a more progressive view that the lives of many are more important then the profits of a few - but that does not mean we reject competition and corporations. We seek (to me anyway) a fair balance that benefits all the people. A more socialist society is meant to benefit all the people and give a fair living to them while allowing people to advance and have more, whereas the neo-cons want a war like existence where we must all battle constantly to survive.

We want team work between us all, they want a military style government and life where most are soldiers and there are a few generals. Like a pyramid scheme in a sense. You can only have so many at the top. That is not a level field that works out best for the whole.

While we can still have people at the top, and rich people, business owners, et al, we have gotten to a point in this country where you have no choice but to live and play by one small set of rules. To survive in this war like atmosphere the method requires you suit up and go fight while the talents of some are not based on fighting to survive - that is to say one is willing to fight in a general sense but are limited in what battles they can fight in because it has been narrowed by a few generals. You are only worth, to these people, the amount of money and goods you can control.

So when neo-cons say they are a party of freedom and oppurtunity I call bullshit. They are a party of limited freedoms for the few and oppurtunity only exist within the army and war they have constructed for us to live in.

We will take this country back when the message is clearly heard and understood by the people - we got your backs, they only have theirs and they tell us by letting them do as they want we all benefit.

Sorry for the long, disjointed rambling as I am extremely tired. I should have written this later but such is life, might as well click post and pray :)

[applegrove]

1. I agree. They are the party of wanting Americans to think of "one mind"

which is not thinking at all. That is a machine.

They also heavily subsidize their favored industries so that is socialism for business. And they like to use bully power to get free countries to deal with their corporations at & in ways that give their corporations great benefit.

If they really like competition - they would be fine with Iran building a pipeline to India. Now that is competition.

So don't let them tell you they are for free markets. They actually have used much government money to skew the markets so that there has been a perpetual market. Every time Asia tells the NYSE that their numbers will be down on opening - that is corrected by 9:30 AM. Also some question as to the gold & silver markets. These are competitors for the USA dollar. They have mysteriously not grown like they used to. When Mexico planned on making silver a part of base investment - a little trip from USA officials canned that idea.

And they do these things legally because they put a notice up on the internet - in some mysterious place - that they are doing these interventions in the market - ergo..they have not violated the laws because it was a 'public action'.

So they don't want free thinking people or free markets. They are constantly lying. Only when it suits their purposes or needs.

[Comandante_Subzero]

2. Zero-Sum Paralysis

The New Deal was specifically a way of PREVENTING power from devolving into the hands of the people.

It was a fundamentally paternalistic welfare state system, & the corporate/warfare state run by Dems was little different from the corporate/warfare state run by the Repubs.

The existing warfare state has many socialist features, enough to stave off popular rebellion for the moment, but socialism too has little to do with economic democracy. For that we would need to look at a system like anarcho-syndicalism.

My main point is we need to think more broadly & not assume the only options are state socialism & corporate statism. The ruling elites want us to remain stuck in that false dichotomy - anything but have us think for ourselves about what kind of economic relations we want to have.

[applegrove]

4. The New Deal was a way to ensure that the government would

step in with spending to get a 'frozen economy' going again. Also to ensure that in the richest country of the world at the time..the poor would not starve & be turned into beggars.

The New Deal gave a great deal of power to the middle class. The stock market shenanigans of the 1920s could only grow the middle class so big and then collapsed on itself. The New Deal ensured there would not be constant depression. That there would be 'answers' to a stagnant economic picture in automatic government spending to keep deep recession at bay. & it worked for 40 years until Petro-dollars & Vietnam war spending morphed the economy into another stratosphere. Debt that showed nothing in terms of investment in human capital & wealth created in Texas did nothing to help. The lesson learned was that hyperinflation had to be battled at the get go. So the tight money policy of the 1990s that kept the economy going without inflation.

Now the neocon policy is a less than full employment economy to stop inflation. Instead of everyone paying to stop inflation with a mild recession (the rich and the middle class & the poor paid) now only the middle class & the poor pay. The rich have a perpetual market based on low employment policies. And once again - to move the USA economy out of depression - government spending steps in to get the economy going. In this case in the form of War spending and tax cuts. And none of this is paid for. So the children will be paying for the debt created to keep the perpetual market going. And rich people have the chance to divest of GE and traditional stocks and move into new ones..while the middle class buys them up. And the rich then offshore their wealth. With homes in various parts of the world and accounts. Did I mention the kids will be paying for this war & for the tax break to the rich?

And what is the trick that keeps the economy from going kaboom? Interference in base metal prices of gold & silver (competitors to the US dollar)& the stock market (tax cuts, corrective market action by 9:30 AM) all to keep the American dollar as the world currency of trade. As long as the US dollar is valued around the world as say - the thing Oil barrels are traded in - that gives extra room for extra debt to be sustainable. At least until other world currencies get tired of the American bubble & debt and move into other currencies.

The rich do not pay taxes. They do not share in the burden of keeping inflation down. That has been wholly transfered onto the backs of the poor, the middle class and the hope that US $ will be the world currency one day. Not something countries are going to go for as it robs them of monetary policy and the tools for their country that Greenspan has in the USA.

Politically speaking, the neocons will never make the elites share in the burden of fighting inflation. And the "redefining" of GDP & employment stats - hide the problem from the middle class. And this all acts as a subsidy on Oil which benefits from low inflation despite the high price rises, because the American middle class is paying for it with under-employment and having to start their own businesses which are less secure and profitable per hour that previously salaried positions. Recession caused by higher oil prices would have resulted in market improvements for alternative fuels and investment and research there in as people move to smaller cars on mass and the like.

The middle class subsidized the elites & the big Oil companies that the Bush WH represents and keep the economy rolling for the soon to be uber-elites.

This is not about an economy for the American worker. They will be left behind as the uber-elites lift off from America by debasing the government and the democracy - and go out into the world with fortunes and bully tactics to dominate world trade. These elites will threaten the government with abandonment if taxes are ever raised again. The government will be hamstrung by debt. The world will be a class system again. And the bills will have to be paid by the children of today's middle class. Because this war & this perpetual market are sure as hell not being paid for by the elites who benefit - without sucking up or sacrificing at all during this time of "war".

But keep fogging.

[Zero Division]

3. Excellent Post.

One of liberalism's weaknesses in American culture is the perception that it grants too much power to the government. Liberals would do well to find a way to reassure the American people that our goal is to foster a balance of power in American society that grants individuals the greatest amount of opportunity and freedom without letting the government become an oppressive institution, unanswerable to the people it is meant to serve.

Many who fear government power do so without taking the dangers of other powerful social institutions, such as corporations and religious institutions, into account. This leads to a narrow definition of freedom and opportunity, seeing these only in the more immediate context of an individual's relationship to the government, and ignoring the influence of other institutions on the opportunities and freedoms of individuals.