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Ok, so we win in '08. How much of what Bush has done can be undone?

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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:33 AM
Original message
Ok, so we win in '08. How much of what Bush has done can be undone?
Environmentally? Contractually - i.e. Halliburton building 30 million dollar prison in Guatanemo? Economically? Energy Bill-wise? Foreign relations-wise? Education-wise? Keeping of Presidential secrets-wise? Iraq? Can we change things as fast as he did?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep
With a progressive dem house, senate and prez. Yes...

Although, they are mostly capitalist true believers so they'll still be trying to keep the oil supply flowing, share-holders getting richer and the majority held in wage slavery.

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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. there are so many things to undo, I don't know
About all I can think of seriously helping would be a blanket mass-repeal of all laws passed while Bushler was in office.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Only Clinton has a shovel big enough
to be able to scoop up this Guiness Book of World Records sized pile of elephant manure/catastrophe. I mean he worked that budget and managed to build up a nice surplus for chimpy to squander on bullshit/elephant shit. That was a monumental task. Clinton managed to leave the worthless herr of parent (small pun) Bush a big ol' pile of moula to blow. Ahem. Well, take it for what it is. We know what that sneaky son of a bush in the White House West has managed to fuck up royally.

<Can we change things as fast as he did?>
I don't think so. We are not cold hearted thugs who could allow something like 911 to happen so we can get our way with no questions asked. Not trying to inject conspiracy theories here, but I remember the debates where he said Clinton had let out military go downhill and that it was weak. Less than 6 months into the village idiot's first "presidency", he had a top to bottom review done of our military and said everything looked pretty much in order. I mean, that just one of the things that leads me to believe he's either that dumb or let 911 happen on purpose. The truth? Yeah, he's the dullest tool in the shed, but sneaky and manipulative with no scruples. Did he let it happen for political gain? We'll never know for sure, will we?

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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Clinton is the one I see with the know-how to fix the mess, too.
Not that somebody else couldn't. I am a Clinton fan, though. I liked life with Bill in office and I could sure see him as First Man. He's perfect for the job. As for LHOP. I'm not there, but I can understand how people get there.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Why not Bill Clinton for a cabinet post....?
Maybe as Secretary of State (especially if Clark is the nominee)?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Any way we can get him in there again.
I'd be fine with that. Clark seems like a decent candidate to me too.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I'd take Clark, but I don't think Clinton would do a cabinet post.
He'd more like the historical significance of being the First Man.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. What about the 50-state strategy?
I can't imagine Senator Clinton helping Democrats win races in red states.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. She's doing it the same way Bill did - by moving to the middle.
I know this upsets people here, but it is a winning strategy.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Only Wes Clark has the gravitas to look and reprioritize the
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 03:19 AM by FrenchieCat
400 billion dollars a year defense budget, while the rest of the Democrats act strong on defense and won't mention the defense budget, noway, no-how.

That's where the money to balance the budget is currently buried.

Let's see the other Democrats touch that one...even with a great big shovel.....wouldn't happen!
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. At this point, it'll take 20 consecutive years of Democratic govt.
Until the year 2028. That's how long we'll need to undo the damage that the Republicans have done. And that's assuming that we'll have control of both the Presidency and Congress for that many years.

I don't, however, forsee the total destruction of the GOP in 2008. Rather, it seems more likely that they may hold on to government in some significant way, only to retake power from the Dems in a bitter brawl in 2010 or 2012. IF that happens, then only a revolution will set things straight.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. first, it will allow justice stevens to retire
second, the gore administration will initiate investigations into the bush executive branch disinformation campaign leading up to the iraqi war that will certainly uncover past and present payoffs and other illegal activities purpetrated upon the american tax payers. third, no more legislation like the recent energy bill that left no oil company behind without billion dollar tax cuts.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. An ironic bit of peotic justice...
Cheney can be sent to the GITMO gulag Halliburton built. :evilgrin:
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Now, that's a GREAT idea!
They can all go.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. Here's a plan to get out of Iraq......
It's Clark's plan....so just don't show it to Biden....he might end up making notes!LOL!


A Real Plan for Success in Iraq

When the President flew out to the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln and posed under the banner that read: "Mission Accomplished," he made it clear he did not understand the scope of the mission. We need a success strategy. Only success can honor the sacrifice of so many American men and women; it is only success that will allow Iraq to stand on its own; and it is only success that will allow our soldiers to come home. Early exit means retreat or defeat. Wes Clark has a plan to internationalize the reconstruction, counter the terrorists' guerilla war more effectively, and give Iraqis a greater stake in our own success.

What Do We Do Now?

Wes Clark believes we need to clearly define our mission in Iraq by deciding what constitutes success. Our mission is to create a secure, stable Iraq with a representative government. Only this will make America more secure and enable our troops to come home. Success means that Iraq is strong enough to sustain itself without outside forces but is no longer a threat to its neighbors; that representative government has taken root so Iraq can be a model for democratic hope in the Middle East; and that Iraqi society and the Iraqi economy are healthy enough so that Al Qaeda cannot recruit there.

Wes Clark's strategy for Iraq is guided by the following principles:

1. End the American monopoly. From the beginning, the Administration has insisted on exclusive control of the Iraqi reconstruction and occupation. This has cost us the financial and military support of other nations and made America a bigger target for terrorists. Ending the American monopoly will change the way this enterprise is viewed -- in Iraq and throughout the world.

* Re-incorporate our allies. Fixing the Administration's missteps will require skilled diplomacy at the highest levels. Wes Clark recommends calling a summit of leaders from Europe, the United Nations, Japan and the Arab world to launch a new, internationalized effort in Iraq. They will be more willing to help if America works with them on issues they care about: climate change, the International Criminal Court and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

* Transform the military operation into a NATO operation. General Abizaid, commander of US forces in the Middle East, would remain in charge of the operation, but he would report to the NATO Council, as General Clark did as commander of NATO forces in Kosovo. With NATO support and U.N. endorsement, we can also expect some Arab countries to step in. Their presence would prove that this is not an American occupation, but an international and regional effort to stabilize Iraq.

2. Adjust the force mix. The Bush Administration has failed to formulate an effective tactical plan. No such plan will be viable without substantial contributions from military leaders on the ground. Still, Wes Clark would approach the problem as follows:

* Consider adding troops. Wes Clark believes we should look at whether adding forces will help the effort in Iraq. He would not measure success in Iraq by a reduction in troops or failure by an increase. It's more important to do the job right so all the troops can come home sooner.

* Adapt to guerilla war. One mistake in Vietnam was trying to use conventional forces to fight an unconventional war. The more unarmored humvees we have, the greater our vulnerability to roadside bombs. We have suffered more losses in routine patrolling and transit than in active counter-insurgency efforts. We need to ensure the right mix of forces to fight a classic guerrilla war. That means more Special Forces and other light forces better suited for counter-insurgency.

* Better use of intelligence resources. To protect our soldiers we must do all we can to find out who's attacking our soldiers. That means better intelligence work and improved relations with the civilian population. Yet intelligence specialists and people who can speak to Iraqis in their own language are scarce. We need to take the linguists and intelligence specialists now involved in the search for WMDs and assign them to our military counter-insurgency efforts. International inspectors are willing and able to take over this mission. We must also augment our intelligence capability with new technologies and better recruitment in the Arab-American community.

* Train Iraqi security forces, freeing up U.S. troops. We need to empower Iraqis to provide routine security so American soldiers can focus on urgent tasks like counter-insurgency. Wes Clark would implement a comprehensive two-tier plan: train police first, then military.

o Summon the old Iraqi army for duty at the local level. We need more Iraqi paramilitary units and police at the local level. General Clark will use thorough background checks, generous pay rates, and real political control for Iraqis -- as well as appealing to Iraqis' sense of nationality -- to put Iraqis in charge of basic security, freeing up US soldiers to focus on our most urgent tasks, including counter-insurgency.

o Reconstitute the Iraqi Army so that it eventually can do the work the occupation force now does - guarding Iraqi borders, keeping order, and fighting insurgents. It will take considerable time to have an Iraqi Army trained enough and integrated enough to do the job.

* Engage neighbors for better border security. Iraq is now a magnet for every jihadist in the Middle East. Closing the borders requires cooperation from the countries bordering Iraq. But currently, Syria and Iran don't want us to succeed because they fear they are next on our invasion list. Wes Clark recommends engaging Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia with both carrots and sticks. We have serious issues with each of these countries, but closing those borders is the most urgent priority right now. We must show Iraq's neighbors that cooperation with us is in their interest and will help their region.

* Secure ammunition. Today, hundreds of thousands of tons of ammunition from Saddam's arsenal have yet to be secured, and thousands of shoulder-fired missiles remain at large. Terrorists have used these stockpiles to attack our forces. We should destroy that ammunition immediately or else secure it with surveillance technology and troops from other countries willing to come to Iraq.

3. Promote information exchange to advance civil society. To encourage the growth of civic organizations, media, neighborhood groups -- and promote reconstruction -- we should open the West to Iraq for exchange programs so that Iraqis who have been isolated for years can see the what the rest of the world does with its economy, schools, health care, media and government.

Preventing Foreign Misadventures Going Forward


* Promote security through multilateralism. No nation will ever have veto power over our security. But turning our back on our allies makes it harder to protect ourselves and our interests. Despite our overwhelming military, economic and political strength, we cannot pursue Arab-Israeli peace, support reconstruction of Iraq and Afghanistan, deal with the challenges of North Korea, track down Osama bin Laden, fight the global war against terrorism, face the problem of Iran, and return to prosperity in this country, unless we have allies to help us.

* Modernize international institutions to combat new threats. Wes Clark recommends pursuing a new Atlantic Charter to repair and modernize our security partnership with Europe. The Charter that will define the threats we face in common and demand action from our allies to meet them while offering a promise to act together.

* Create a new agency for international assistance. Wes Clark believes America should lead the world in addressing the causes of human misery by attacking the problems of poverty, disease, and ethnic conflict with the same energy and skill we have brought to the challenge of warfare. A new agency would combine the existing development efforts of our government with a real budget for research and development, planning and the ability to draw on the new national Civilian Reserves that Wes Clark proposed in his campaign last October. These efforts will reduce the anger and alienation that gives rise to terrorism, and win us more friends and partners around the world. It will be far easier to ask gain international support for our concerns when other countries see us helping them on theirs.

http://securingamerica.com/issues/iraqplan


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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Damn, that makes sense!
Though I still say we should just get out tomorrow
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. The hard part will be surviving until then
After that, we'll be in the driver's seat.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. We need to lay the groundwork by electing a heap of non-wimpy,
non-appeasing Democrats to the House and Senate in 2006 and another heap of them in 2008.

Then we need to elect a gutsy Dem who cares about the people more than s/he cares about the corporations who can start undoing the damage with the help of a gutsy Congress.

Look how much Roosevelt accomplished in a short time.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. If all else fails... Executive Orders... n/m
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. If he's convicted of crimes
can the next pres replace the judges he's installed? His stacking of the courts will be effecting this country for another generation at least.
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markam Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here is the situation in 2008
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 07:17 PM by markam
We have hit maximum world oil production and oil production is now dropping 3-5%/year. Oil prices spike to $150/barrel before dropping because of the global recession.

Asian countries are dumping their treasury bonds

the oil producing countries are switching to alternate payment methods (anything but the dollar)

Most countries are in a recession

In the US, our economy has cratered. The housing bubble doesn't just burst, it blows up like an atomic bomb. We are in a full blown depression, unemployement is heading to 20%, the government is printing money, creating hyperinflation.

To add to the oil problem, the natural gas shortage in North America becomes critical. Production, which has been dropping since the late 90's, falls off a cliff. Canada (whos production is also dropping), stops supplying us with NG. Industry crashes, massive power grid problems, and millions of people without heat in the 2008-2009 winter.

It only gets worse after that.

Suffice to say, I am not optimistic that anything is going to save us.
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'd say you're not optimistic.
That's the biggest doomsday scenario I've seen since reading Revelations. I'll stick with hope. It's easier to sleep that way.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. At home, we will undo most of the damage.
It is abroad that the lasting harm will be done. Tomorrows killing fields are being sown today.
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