64% have joined Dean in his "spider hole of denial" about not being safer.

[madfloridian]

64% of Americans polled by Newsweek say we are no safer. They agree with what Howard Dean said back in December 2003, about being no safer with Saddam in jail.

Recently on MTP Howard Dean told Tim Russert on Meet the Press, “We’re in greater danger now because of what’s going on in Iraq than we were before.”

"28 percent say the war in Iraq has made Americans safer from terrorism; 64 percent say it has not, the poll shows."
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8849936/site/newsweek/

In 2003 Lieberman said Howard Dean was in a "spider hole of denial."
Well, Joe, he is in good company now.

[Wetzelbill]

1. you can always count on Joe to have it right....

:eyes:

:puke:


Way to go, Howard! How's that for telling it like it is?

[Cha]

9. Yes,Dean, thanks "for telling

it like it is" back when war mongers like lieberman were hawking for bush. And it definetly wasn't a popular posit.

They were Sooo Wrong! And they might have even known it..they just didn't want it to be true.

[Wetzelbill]

10. If Dean and Kucinich had the foresight....

to know what was going on and going to happen, where the hell were the rest of these clowns at?

It's not always the most popular thing to be right or to tell the truth. At least you have a backbone and can sleep at night, anyway.

[XemaSab]

15. Amen

I really don't know what all the pro-war dems were thinking... it was obvious to, uh, let's see, me an all my friends that this was going to be a mess, and Howard and Dennis too, but somehow the other dems just didn't see it coming?

There's a stupidity cutoff for dems too, and it's right there at voting for the war.

[Cha]

2. 28% of Americans have

their heads in the sand..it must get awfully stuffy down there.

[Carolab]

3. I love the way Howard is always right, don't you?

Now, if he would just understand about election fraud...his predictions about a Democratic America might come true, too.

That's the "spider hole of denial", IMHO.

[AX10]

4. It's up to me whether to put Lieberman in for a forth term.

Not sure whether to vote for him, the Working Families ticket, or abstain. Either way, he'll most likely win re-election. However, I prefer Lieberman to ANY Rethug EXCEPT Lowell Weicker. It was sad that Lowell lost to Joe.

[Cha]

13. I thought there was an

earlier movement in Connecticut to get rid of lieberman in the primaries cause of some outrageous thing he did(it escapes me now)?

[madfloridian]

17. There is talk still....nothing definite.

They are still discussing it. Lieberman has a world of money, so it would have to be pretty powerful. A couple have been mentioned.

[Maat]

5. Good catch!

I'm in the spidey hole!

[welshTerrier2]

6. but still he thinks "we must remain" in Iraq

what Party should Americans turn to when they understand (finally) that our occupation of Iraq is making us LESS SAFE but both major parties insist we remain there to try to accomplish some kind of objective that Americans do not believe can be achieved ??????????????????????????

neither Dean, nor the Democratic Party, nor, of course, the republican party, are representing the American people on this issue ... so much for good government and representative democracy ...

[Eloriel]

11. I am pretty sure YOUR view isn't representative of most Americans

So I'm not sure why you have to be quite so vehemently anti-Dean on this point. Not that many people agree with you (and Kucinich?) that we should just up and leave.

Hell, for one thing, that would require an instantaneous mass-exist of everyone AT ONCE, else the ones not evacuated at the same time, those left behind even for a few hours would be goners.

[welshTerrier2]

14. bullshit

saying i am anti-Dean because i strongly disagree with Dean's view on Iraq is unnecessarily divisive ... the truth is i am very hopeful that Dean's reform efforts will lead to positive changes in the Party ...

it is also not at all clear what the view of the American people is on withdrawal ... nor did you make any legitimate defense of the main argument i made in my post ...

the basic argument was that if 64% of the American people agree with Dean that the continued occupation of Iraq is making us less safe, what arguments are being made to continue the occupation ... nor did i call for "instantaneous mass-exist" (sic) from Iraq ... what i do call for is a recognition that every day we remain there makes us less safe, promotes more insurgency in Iraq, leaves the poor Iraqi people with no infrastructure and no hope and has no hope of succeeding no matter how long we stay ... if time is needed, say less than 6 months, to extricate ourselves safely from this mess, that's fine with me ...

can i assume from your comments you don't think we should just "up and leave"? can i assume you believe that we are training the Iraqis to defend themselves and that this program either is working or it will work? can i assume that you believe the US occupation of Iraq is not the major source of the violence there? can i assume that you believe that even with bush in the WH, we should continue to seek positive military solutions in Iraq?

it's unfortunate you think many people don't agree with my "way out there" (my words) position and that my views of what is happening in Iraq are in an extreme minority ... that is not what i believe ...

on edit: here's a poll i found on withdrawal from an article written two months ago ... note that this was apparently worded as an "immediate" withdrawal ... perhaps the numbers would have been even higher if the question included either an "immediate or near-term" withdrawal which is MY position ...

source: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=246
(Pew Research Center)

"Support for an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq continues to inch up ­ from 36% last October, to 42% in February, and 46% currently."

here's another recent poll:

source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-12-poll_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
(USA Today/Gallup)

"Nearly six in 10 Americans say the United States should withdraw some or all of its troops from Iraq, a new Gallup Poll finds, the most downbeat view of the war since it began in 2003."

and here's another source:

source: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0317-33.htm
(NBC/Wall Street Journal)

"According to a recent NBC/Wall Street Journal poll taken after the Iraq elections, 59 percent of the public believes the United States should pull its troops out of Iraq in the next year"

[msongs]

18. commander in chief says mission accomplished, so time to go home...

if the mission was accomplished and we are still there fighting, is that not some serious dereliction of responsibility that might be criminal?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Son of California]

7. Dean is like the Rodney Dangerfield of politics

he gets no respect, like most men ahead of their time.
and he's been whipping this party into shape since taking over.
To me, Dean represents everything I love about the Democratic Party, more than any other political figure.
I mean, we talk about how amazing Paul Hackett was in that race -but wasn't he pretty much saying the same things that Dean did in 03/04?
Dean is our secret weapon.
If we had stood by him, Bush might already be out of office. If we stand firm by him now, he'll get us the Senate back in 06 and the WH and House in 08.

[Cha]

12. "Rodney Dangerfield of politics"..

:D

It's fantastic to have someone come along and say things like .."the SOB in the white house", though..thanks, Paul Hackett!

[madfloridian]

16. Good points. And Dean didn't call Bush an SOB....

Can you imagine what would have happened if he had said that? All hell would have broken loose. Dean made it ok for others to express such thoughts. He sort of broke the ground in making it ok to criticize the president. He is willing to take the blows.

Others can now call Bush an SOB and still survive. So that is a good thing.

[coloradodem2005]

8. Right as always Howard!!!!

[wli]

19. how many say it's put us in more danger? and Afghanistan?

They never ask the relevant questions.