Civil War

[MisterLiberal]

No, I'm not talking about Blue States and Red States. I'm regrettably talking about the Democratic Party.

When I hear things like how the DLC is poisoning our party with their Repuke-Lite policies, I cringe. We haven't tried a proud liberal agenda in any Presidential election, but for some reason, we are supposed to move to the right and like it. Just vote and shut up. That's what we're supposed to do.

At least we can make our influence known in the primaries, right? Wrong. Now our leaders decide they are going to short circuit the Primary vote so THEY get to choose a candidate instead of us?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2000827

This is the final straw.

I will vote my conscience from this date on and that vote will be based on liberal issues regardless of party.

Flame on. I've had it.

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Uh, did you read the comments? That email's info is highly suspect.

[MisterLiberal]

4. No

I heard the audio. I thought it was just a Sludge sliming of what was said, but after hearing it, I just lost it.

Our ONLY REMAINING CHANCE at moving the party to the left IS THE PRIMARY ELECTION!

Now that is being taken away from us by the leadership???

[LittleClarkie]

2. For the third or fourth time, where in that story is this about the DLC?

Reid isn't DLC. Schumer isn't DLC. If people are going to bitch about the DLC, could they maybe find an article ABOUT the DLC?!

[MisterLiberal]

5. No they arent

DLC but let's put two and two together: if our only method of moving the party to the left is the PRIMARY ELECTION and the national leadership is now going to pick the primary winner FOR US, then the DLC slide to the right will continue unabated.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

"We are doing that in states where there are primaries. ......this
always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more. We're finding the best candidates in every
one of the seats where republicans are vunerable. "

That is VERY PLAIN TALK. When he talks about "people throwing up the cards and seeing where they land" he is talking about the primary election.

Then he says, "No more."

That doesn't make you mad?

[LittleClarkie]

8. Sounds like they're trying to get organized

And put forth the strongest candidates they can.

What good is a candidate if they're going to be "McGoverned"?

I dunno. Gonna have to hear more about it than what I've seen here so far.

[MisterLiberal]

11. LC

I respect your posts, but imagine if they had picked someone other than Kerry and disrespected Kerry and he wasn't nominated!!!

What would you feel???

The general election belongs to the party.

BUT THE PRIMARIES BELONG TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

[MisterLiberal]

12. LC

Let me ask you this:

What if they choose Lieberman for the primaries without giving the other candidates a fair chance?

That is, they purposely leave out Hillary and John Kerry to put Joe on the ballot?

What about this do you like???

[LittleClarkie]

15. How are they going to do that?

Aside from who they back and who they talk up. Makes them just one more voice, doesn't it? They can't prevent others from running. They can put pressure on them not to. But they can't prevent anything.

Do you really think Dean will be down with all of this?

[MisterLiberal]

19. I don't know

That's another thing. He's now welcoming Anti-Choice idiots into the party. You don't see a movement to the right in the party?

Does it bother you?

The national party can move money to their favored candidate and if they lean on other candidates to bow out, they will.

For instance, if this plan had been in place in 2004, and they told Kerry that Dean was the favored one, if Kerry wanted future support, he would have stepped down.

THIS IS BACKWARDS! The party should listen to the people, not the other way around!

Again, he said, "this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see where they land. No more."

He said NO MORE Clarkie!!!

[LittleClarkie]

22. I like Harry Reid

Do you consider him one of those anti-choice idiot?

[MisterLiberal]

25. Of course not!

I was referring to Howard saying the party needed to be "open" to inviting anti-choice people into our party.

Sorry, that's not the Howard Dean I know!!!

What happens once people get at the national level?

[LittleClarkie]

29. Maybe Dean isn't who you think he is.

And you don't have to invite them in. They're there already.

So do you think Howard would say something he doesn't mean?

[MisterLiberal]

31. I don't know

I am disappointed in that stance of his, though.

And there seems to be something that happens to people once they reach national office.

And they may be here, but they don't have to have any kind of influence in the party!

They've already got their own party, it's called the Republican Party!

[MisterLiberal]

26. Little Clarkie, answer this please

What did Sen. Schumar mean when he said this:

"this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more."


Please explain what that means. And that isn't made up; that is what he said on tape!

[LittleClarkie]

28. Fucked if I know

it's out of context.

[MisterLiberal]

33. Then

Perhaps you need to be more informed?

Here is a direct link to the audio. Listen to it and see if you agree with what he is saying:

http://www.countthevote.org/personal/schumer0802.mp3

This is the scariest thing I have *ever* heard in our party!

[Pepperbelly]

40. I think you're pouring gasoline on controversy intentionally.

DLC, not mentioned.

What was mentioned was the Democratic Senatorial Election Committee is going to support candidates in "red" states in hopes of avoiding bloodletting in the primaries. I don't know if I like it but it certainly isn't the dastardly thing you make it out to be.

So what's up with that? I mean, your post was pretty hyperbolic.

[LittleClarkie]

41. The sky is falling. It's falling, the sky.

Exactly.

[MisterLiberal]

45. That's funny

but you again ignored my post, LC.

You better hope the leadership likes Kerry in 2008, eh?

[LittleClarkie]

46. I agree with the poster that you are being an alarmist

and misinterpreting the intent of Schumer's words.

The DNC can back whoever the fuck they want. As I suspect they already do.

[MisterLiberal]

44. That's not what Schumer said Pepperbelly

He didn't say "red states". Listen to him again. And if my stance is simple hyperbole then you should have no problem answering my questions.

What did Sen Schumer mean when he said:

"We are doing that in states where there are primaries. ......this
always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more."

No mention of "red states" as you said.

Tell me what he meant when he said "this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see where they land. No more."

What part of it don't you like, btw?

[DIKB]

3. More power to you.

Vote Dem, Vote Green, Vote Independent, Vote your conscience, just as long as you don't EVER vote for the Neocons.

[MisterLiberal]

6. :)

That's why I posted what I did; our party is being Neocon Lite.

I won't stand for supporting them even if they hide behind a (D) at the beginning of their name!

[NMDemDist2]

7. ahem {cough} this is "DemocraticUnderground"

just saying......

[MisterLiberal]

10. Yes

And I am defending DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES!!!

Once the party moves to the right, they are leaving ME, I'm not leaving the party!

[MisterLiberal]

9. Here

Here is a link to the post I read ON THIS VERY SITE about this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2000827

It is direct from a witness (on our side, at that!) at the party where Schumer said it!

==================================
From Roxanne Jekot:

I was at a private house party on August 2nd in Georgia with Senators
Reid, Schumer and Pryor.

And the grand DLC plan is simple for 2006 - no DEM primaries. They
plan to choose the DLC candidate and force all others out of the
race. Just like they did in PA with Casey.

The exact Schumer (DSCC Chair) quote is:

"We are no longer letting Democrats get in a circle and shoot each
other. We are going to intervene if any one Democrat attacks another.
We are doing that in states where there are primaries. ......this
always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more. We're finding the best candidates in every
one of the seats where republicans are vunerable. "

So, bye bye primaries, folks. The good DLC will be choosing our
candidates from here on out.

The quote in this email begins at 12:57 of the audio file.

I've included a link to a MP3 audio tape of his speech at the house
party, but please don't post a link to the audio. My bandwidth can't
afford all your visitors.

http://www.countthevote.org/personal/schumer0802.mp3
==================================

How can ANYONE defend this?????!!!! Even if you like the continuing rightward tilt of the party, surely you can't support the removing of the people's political will in the party????

So now they only want my GENERAL ELECTION vote.

And I'm STILL supposed to shut up and like it?

[LittleClarkie]

13. Um yeah, you linked that in the first post as well

Saw it already.

Sounds like Schumer is railing against circular firing squads. You like circular firing squads? We here in the Dem Party are great at tearing ourselves apart during the primaries. The Repubs hardly have any work to do when we're done. All they have to do is pull out the primary playbook and repeat what we've said about each other.

Sounds like they're trying to look for ways to stop that from happening.

So what's Dean's position or place in all of this. He is the head of the Party, isn't he? Surely this would have to go through him.

[MisterLiberal]

23. .

What they call "circular firing squads" we call the primary election process!

They can justify with whatever terms they want in taking our decision making power away (sound familiar? Trade your civil rights for security! Here it is "Trade your primary election vote for party security!) so they can have less trouble annointing their candidate?

Even if it WORKED, we should be suspicious! ANY movement of the power from the people to the party like that should never just be handed over!



"this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more."

Sorry, Mr. Schumer, those are MY cards you are taking away!

[NMDemDist2]

14. you'll notice the thread is locked as being misleading and Ms Jekot

is not a member of DU and is an activist with Bev Harris. This info is suspect on many levels.

I think we may be overreacting to an unfounded rumor :shrug:

this is a better representation of the Democratic Party IMO

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2001474

[LittleClarkie]

17. Yikes

Sadly, most things associated with Bev feel suspect.

Thanks for the info.

Even if Roxanne is legit, it's only her opinion of what was happening, not the Gospel According to Roxy.

[MisterLiberal]

20. Fine

But I heard the audio. And that IS gospel to me.

Please, address what he said!

"this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more."

What did he mean if he didn't mean the party was going to take over primaries?

[LittleClarkie]

27. About your playing the Kerry card with me

You do realize that there are folks who consider Kerry DLC and Dean the dangerous liberal, even though the truth is that Dean is more conservative and Kerry more liberal, despite their affiliations.

So why would the party leaders pick Dean over Kerry? They don't seem to particularly like the man. I know it was hypothetical, but it was kind of a weird hypothetical.

Depending on who's looking at Kerry, he's either too right or too left. It's nuts. There must be a truth in there somewhere. But some folks put him in with Lieberman, which is doubly bizarre.

[MisterLiberal]

30. Little Clarkie

What I am saying is a hypothetical.

Obviously you support John Kerry (Dennis was my favorite but I proudly voted for Mr. Kerry in the general election).

The point I was raising was, "What if your candidate wasn't the favored one of the party? Your vote would be ignored."

That's why I mentioned John Kerry. Wouldn't that BOTHER you?

[longship]

16. Hear, Hear!!!

I am a *liberal* and I'm very proud to be a *liberal*. I vote my conscience, not a party. I am registered as a Democrat, and I generally vote that way. The last Republican for whom I voted was Senator Nancy Landon Kassebaum (R-KS) who was an honest, highly principled, socially progressive Republican in the mold of her father, former KS Governor Alf Landon (who ran against FDR). I would consider voting for any Republican who would stand up against the current and total lunacy in the Republican party.

I hope that the apparent current awakening in this country will result in a liberal coalition which can put our country on the correct track. The DLC is a wedge group who's only concern is trying to take the Democratic Party to a position of the Republicans of the fifties. The DLC needs to realize that "That ain't gonna happen!!" If they continue to divide the party, they will *lose* the party because no self-respecting liberal will stay with them. I certainly won't.

[LittleClarkie]

18. The DLC doesn't have to realize shit if it's not the DLC talking

It wasn't a DLC meeting. Two out of the three politicians weren't DLC. And any change would have to go through Dean, wouldn't it? Or do you think he'd be down with this?

[MisterLiberal]

21. Again

It wasn't a DLC meeting, I agree with you, but the party has been moving to the right. That ticks me off to no end.

The only power we have to halt this rightward movement IS BY THE PRIMARY ELECTION!

And they're going to have a primary election just for show now?

[MisterLiberal]

24. Yay Longship!

You can see it! If we trade principles for party, we are DOOMED!

I'm fighting FOR the Democratic Party! But not the Democratic Party of the Republican wing of the party!

We can't wake up if they keep telling us to shut up and vote. Ignore our principles and beliefs! The party must survive!

The party must survive to come back to its senses!!!

[wyldwolf]

32. ah, what the hell

More of the reactionary shit.

First - Reid and Shumer aren't DLC as has already been pointed out.

Second, the quote in no way says primaries will be "abolished."

What it says is the party will intercede and mediate during any instances of our notorious circular firing squads - which I'm all for.

Sorry - one more "let's twist the facts to support an existing anti-DLC bias" post bites the dust.


But civil war? If that is your goal, you'll lose.

[MisterLiberal]

36. Really?

You say that I'm twisting the facts, but I'm listening to what he is saying!

Can YOU explain to me what he is saying when he says

"this always happens in the primaries, people throw up the cards and see
where they land. No more. "

I guess I should just "shut up and vote?"

I'm used to hearing it...but I'm not going to take it anymore!

[wyldwolf]

37. yes

[MisterLiberal]

42. uh

Yes to what part of the message?

[ticapnews]

34. Do what you want, but make an informed decision...

As has been mentioned, this is not a DLC/DNC thing. And I doubt it's accurate.

Even if it is, this is nothing new. Did people feel the Republican party was lurching wildly to the left because the national party organization got into the PA primary last spring? It threw its collective weight behind Arlen Specter, having the president and even Rick Santorum campaign for him against Pat Toomey? In many cases the national party stays out of the state primary contests, but it isn't unprecedented for them to take sides.

And you should already be voting your conscience anyway...

[MisterLiberal]

35. Not according to the party

They want my vote on a (D) regardless of who the candidates are.

And I can't believe you're justifying this type of action by comparing it to something the REPUKES do!

That's my point! WE SHOULD STOP ACTING LIKE THE REPUKES!!!

How long will the bloodletting of liberal voters occur before someone in Washington realizes that you can't kill of your base and survive!

[ticapnews]

38. That is the most recent example...

Both parties have done it in the past and will do it in the future. Don't manufacture an issue to give you an excuse to make a scene. I'm getting sick of seeing people post that they are leaving the party because Senator X voted no on something or someone said something they didn't like.

This is a national party. There are dozens of different constituancies within our party and many of them have different agendas, and each group thinks their agenda is THE single most important issue in the history of the world. If you don't happen to agree that issue Y is the issue we need to focus on, or don't agree with how it should be handled, then you are "Repuke-lite." We need to become more cohesive, not splinter apart. If you aren't happy with things, do something to make a difference. Write a letter to Howard Dean, run for local office, get involved with a campaign: Be the change you want to see in the world.

How did the religious wackos rise to power? Did they desert the GOP and go their own way? No, they took over the party. They built coalitions within the party. They convinced the different groups that they may have to sacrifice some of their own agenda in order to advance the party, but that in doing so they would get most of what they want, if not all. Over time, they are able to get more of what they want by working together. Take the banking lobby. Not exactly the most religious of sectors in our country. But by working with the religious nuts and the neocons they have gone from not being able to pass any bankruptcy limitations to being able to pass a new bankruptcy law with NO limitations - victim of identity theft, unemployed veteran, sufferer of a catastrophic health condition - none of it matters under the new law. Could the banking lobby have passed this legislation if the GOP was as splintered as we are? And before you twist this point and start yelling about acting like repukes, there are lots of examples from our past where coalitions have come together to fight for environmental, privacy, labor and social issues.

I want to work with people to solve our differences and get the party back on track, even if the end result isn't exactly what I want. If you want to do that as well, then stick around, offer constructive criticism, work to make a change. If you don't want to do that then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[LittleClarkie]

39. This part:

"I'm getting sick of seeing people post that they are leaving the party because Senator X voted no on something or someone said something they didn't like."

I can really relate to. I have a tendancy to say "bye" to such folks. Each constituency can form their own party, or they can realize they are part of the pie, but only a part. The Dem Party can't be all things to all people all the time. But they're still a damn sight better than even the most moderate Repub.

[MisterLiberal]

43. Who are you talking to?

That's not what I'm saying. Talk about twisting what someone is saying.

How about addressing what I am saying instead of relegating me to your most convenient stereotype so that you don't have to address the issue?

I am not talking about a single issue. I am talking about the direction of the national party which has been moving to the right, and that is a direction that I cannot tolerate.

Again, let me directly ask you since you're obviously addressing someone else...

Do you favor the national party finding the perfect candidate IN THE PRIMARY and backing that person above others?

Do you or do you not believe that the general election belongs to the party but the primary election has always belonged to the people?

[Moderator]

47. Locking

flamebait