Cutting through the Confusion

[brindis_desala]

There is a tendency to ascribe the sum of this nation's ills to the neocons but in truth they are a minor piece of the problem and while their methods are certainly abhorrent their goals are consistent with classical liberalism. The greater peril arises from the implicit antagonism between corporate power and nationalism and nationalism is the ipso facto basis for Straussian neocon theory, which asserts the primacy of the (U.S.) nation and that for a true sense of nationhood to exist the people must be united against the "Other", some discernible foe, whether real or simply imagined. But corporations hold no fealty to man or country. They serve one master, that being profit. If they have loyalty it belongs to their stockholders.

Now enter George Bush. His base consists of big corporations and the Christian right while his family fortunes are linked to the Texas/Saudi Arabia oil cartel. Among these only perhaps the zealous right put much stock in nationalism so we are left with a foreign policy that postures on the neocon model (the perpetual war on terror, reliance on deception and overt religiosity) while domestically the corporations have free reign to exploit the American worker and write regulation without fear of public scrutiny or censure. Summed up it is a recipe for disaster which can only end with the military draining the shrinking treasury after corporations have destroyed the environment and beggared its best consumers.

[snowbear]

1. Wow.. such a way with words Brindis!

And all I can say is... awesome!! ~~ :bounce:

[brindis_desala]

3. thanks. The irony is liberals are the true nationalists.

So when they claim we hate America like most things that emit from the snouts of our current Republicans, the opposite is true.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Selfishness.

[omega minimo]

4. Brindis have you been hitting the brandy?

Brilliant as usual.

"But corporations hold no fealty to man or country. They serve one master, that being profit."
+
"the neocon model (the perpetual war on terror, reliance on deception and overt religiosity)"
=
"a recipe for disaster"

So as we watched these ingredients being added to the pot, why was there nothing to be done to change the recipe?

[brindis_desala]

7. Because everyone is making a killing at the party except we the

people have not been invited. We just get to buy their oil and fight their wars. My point was that as dangerous as the neo-cons are the Dominionists and banking/oil magnates really do hate democracy. Too many
faceless obstacles to keeping power and making money. The bind is half of the so-called middle class depends on these robber barons for their pay checks.

[omega minimo]

8. So they support the regime

which means they don't want to see the big picture or their place in it.

Which means people just sit and watch and then pretend the disassembling of the nation was "inevitable."

:puke:

[Eloriel]

5. No, FASCISM is the ipso facto basis for neocon theory

You are dangerously, dangerously wrong about Straussians and Neocons. They are fascists. Leo Strauss yearned for what he called "universal fascism" which would have been one not antagonistic toward Jews -- IOW, fascism for Jews. Michael Ledeen, one of Strauss's protoges went on to write a book by that very title.

Nationalism has NEVER in and of itself included the belief that the elite leaders are not only allowed but expected to lie to the uneducated (by design) masses as Straussian thought does, or that religion should be promoted to keep the masses "moral" and basically distracted and well-occupied, or even that global domination is the imperative of the U.S. as much because might makes right as anything else.

Please study up on Strauss. Here are some links where you'll find quite a bit of information:

Neocon 101
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html

The Power of Nightmares / BBC exposes the American NeoCons
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2876040
Link: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104powerofnightmares.htm

ATTENTION PLEASE: If you never read anything else read these bullet points (good synopsis of NeoCon thought)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1880285&mesg_id=1880285

One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes
WAKE UP! - Strauss / Neocons and Terror PLUS dire warnings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1780890#1781801

Leo Strauss and the Noble Lie: The Neo-Cons at War
http://www.logosjournal.com/mason.htm

Straussian.net -- Leo Strauss and the History of Political Thought
(with Discussion Forums! Book Reviews and a News Blog)
http://www2.bc.edu/~wilsonop/strauss.html

Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
By Jim Lobe, AlterNet. Posted May 19, 2003.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935
linked to from this thread: Has Straussian ideology permeated the GOP?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2121269#2122935

Eurolegal Services - Neoconservatives
http://www.eurolegal.org/useur/usneocon.htm

PNAC Links Archive (Redux)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=110&topic_id=80&mesg_id=80

Flirting with Facsism (about Michael Ledeen)
http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html


Everything You've Always Wanted to Know About Neocons
But were afraid to ask….
by Justin Raimondo, January 9, 2004
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=1563

[brindis_desala]

6. I'm surprised. You are usually one of the more perspicacious

Duers but you have thoroughly misinterpreted my post. I am very familiar with the neo-con philosophy and we can quibble as to whether figures like Rumsfeld, Rove and Ledeen are true Straussians. The reference to nationalism in no way dilutes their their flirtation with fascism merely to emphasize the fallacy of what they preach which IS rabid nationalism with the imperatives of corporate hegemony. The neocons grew out of the right wing Shactmanite faction of the Trotskyites movement and many could be found in the Democratic Party back in the 1960s until they split with the Left over Vietnam. Many rallied to Senator Scoop Jackson- remember him? which in turn explains their presence in your own Democratic Leadership Council. The confusion I allude to is this basic misunderstanding and misuse of the term neocon which is morphed into a false catch-all for Republican theocratic corporatism which seeks to subvert nationalism to the dictates of Christ's Dominion and Natural law. I am neither supporting nor contending that what Perle and company really seek is true nationalism merely that U.S. foreign policy is being dictated by their approach. As for fascism it's most enabling component is rabid patriotism, however one would be hard pressed to demonstrate that Bush's domestic policies are in the slightest way geared to the kind of protectionsm that fosters economic nationalism.

[omega minimo]

9. Supercalifragilistic expiperspicacious

:hi:

[wli]

10. they're fascists, pure and simple, c.f. Ledeen's "Universal Fascism"

[brindis_desala]

11. there is nothing wither pure nor simple about the

neoconservative movement. Please do not help unite what is a fracturing cabal because of its inherent fallacies which my OP attempts top point out. Until the installation of G.W. Bush the neocons were the useful theorists and mouthpieces of the true fascists who have been working ever since FDR to destroy liberalism and American democracy. Far more threatening to our survival is the alliance of the Rapture rightists, Moonies and Dominionists with Corporate Enterprise. That Ledeen and others on the fringe of the neo-con mov't have allied themselves with the Coors, Ahmansons and Scaifes etc does not mean every scholar at the American Enterprise Institute or writing for the National Review agrees with them.

"Global empire is an important issue for conservatism. If the U.S. government has the ability to bring peace and democracy to the world, big government can obviously also run America's economy and plan its social life--and limited government becomes irrelevant. Here most of neo-conservatism and paleo-conservatism unite in their lack of interest in limited government. Modern conservatism literally shifted the center of American and world politics against unlimited government, at least in thought, in a not insubstantial manner. All politicians today-especially in the GOP-- find it difficult to push higher taxes and the belief is widespread that government programs do not work very well. Politically, however, government keeps growing and almost no politician concedes there is any limit to where its benefits and power may reach in the future. Even with the largest programs approaching bankruptcy, the government is immobilized by fear of taking action. Government keeps growing and journalistic conservatism is silent that this growth, especially fueled by dreams of empire, threatens the whole project of American liberty."
http://www.pnac.info/blog/archives/000052.html

[wli]

12. true, that was a very poor turn of phrase to use

As far as my broad condemnations go, I'm quite sure that not everyone working for I.G. Farben agreed with what they were doing, but it was dissolved anyway (though on an unacceptably delayed basis).

The same goes for the AEI, CNP, PNAC, Halliburton, Carlysle Group, et al.

As far as the End Timers, Dominionists, and Moonies go, why do you think it's so easy for people to believe in nuclear false flag? The reason is those 3 groups of crazies have taken people's hopes for rationality away, and probably the actual rationality of the neocon cabal with them.

[brindis_desala]

13. And that, I agree is terrifying.