Oh, great, got this from a Freeper on a CC: list re: high gas prices

[Roland99]

I originally wrote:

You can thank our oil baron administration for this shit. Remember in 2000 when oil was $22/bbl and gas was $1.50/gallon and Bush was bitching at Clinton/Gore, complaining about the high prices? Well, oil is now $66/bbl and gas is now $2.61/gallon (nationwide average). And what's he doing about it? Going on a week-long tour spreading his pro-Iraq BS to pre-picked crowds in the uber-red states of Utah and Idaho.



Yay.

And got this in reply:

And this is all of George Bush’s fault, exactly how?

Just because you have disdain for the man, doesn’t make him a bad President, and while we’re on it, how come when asked, our men fighting are proud and understand what we are doing? While you and I enjoy the security that they are providing, maybe we should just say thanks and go on about our day.

To which I replied:

What security? Iraq was a threat to us how, exactly? And what is this administration doing to combat these high gas prices? Absolutely NOTHING.



Do some research, do some reading. I did and I'm glad. I voted for the man in 2000 but there's no way in hell I could vote for this administration again.



Here are some starting points:




THE STOVEPIPE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact
How conflicts between the Bush Administration and the intelligence community marred the reporting on Iraq’s weapons.


SELECTIVE INTELLIGENCE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact
Donald Rumsfeld has his own special sources. Are they reliable?


The new Pentagon papers - By Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/03/10/osp_moveon/



Hijacking Catastrophe - by Karen Kwiatkowski (Lt. Col. USAF retired)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6895.htm
Hijacking Catastrophe is powerful, understated, straightforward and educational. In a single meticulously organized hour of evidence and analysis, viewers are treated to a thoughtful explanation of modern American empire, neo-conservatism as a driving force for the current Bush administration.



Video (right-click and Save As)...this requires Real Player (I use Real Alternative) to view
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1/hijacking_catastrophe.rm



And let's not forget the Downing Street Memo:

Exclusive: Downing Street reporter dissects pre-war Iraq intelligence

Details 'chill factor' imposed around Iraq intelligence; Putting Downing Street docs in perspective

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Downing_Street_reporter_dissects_Iraq_intelligence_in_leadup_0824.html

And got this in reply:

Believe me, I have read my fair share. How about the fact that we have not had an attack on our soil since 9/11? Is it coincidence, or is it security? Neither I, nor you, have any clue. I do know, that I have not felt as safe as I do now, in a long time. I also, instead of bitching about gas prices, have become more wise with my consumption of it. If it cost you $31 for a ¼ of a tank, then you might reconsider what type of car you drive, as you are not helping our country out either. I did.

And that was replied with:

9/11 happened on HIS watch! Where's Osama? 4 1/2 years later and nothing. Al Qaeda doesn't strike monthly. They bide their time and are having fun with our men and women acting as targets in Iraq. You might ask yourself with anyone who speaks the truth or offers criticisms is fired from the administration or forced into retirement from the Pentagon (Gen. Shinseki, Larry Lindsey, Paul O'Neill, etc.)

Oh, by the wy, we haven't been hit by an asteroid either, I guess Homeland Security is to credit?

Please stop with the GOP talking points.

Also, you might want to re-read my original reply. I said it took $31 to go from 1/4 to F. That's $31 for 3/4 tank of gas (25mpg in pure city driving, thanks)

[Turbineguy]

1. It's Gore's fault.

He was elected President in 2000, therefore it's his fault. Ipso facto.

[Roland99]

2. And this from another Freeper on that CC: list

Who in the hell are you to criticize President Bush you liberal prick. Iraq was a threat in that Sadaam was harboring and funding the terrorist that collapsed the WTC in 2001. If you ever send me an e-mail like this again I will take it personal and will not let you off this lightly. You and your buddy Michael Moore can keep feeding Americans lies but we are a little to smart for your transparent liberal agendas.

My reply:

Wow, what a great comeback!

I was a registered Republican but am now a registered Independent so I'm far from a "liberal prick".

BTW, care to share this proof that Saddam harbored and funded Al Qaeda? You are SADLY misinformed. Probably from years of watching FOX News. To educate you: Osama bin Laden went to the Saudi royal family in the late 80s/early 90s to offer his Al Qaeda organization to protect the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina FROM Saddam. bin Laden called Saddam an "infidel" and a "bad Muslim". Why would they work in cooperation? Oh, I know. Because they DIDN'T! Even the 9/11 Commission (chaired by a Republican) came to that conclusion.

Enough with the revisionist history.

[Roland99]

3. Damn...they're going thru EVERY talking point known to man.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel!!


:rofl:

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. "but we are safe" is all they have left. I hope for everybody's sake

They continue to be right about that.

[Nikki Stone 1]

5. That's a powerful sentiment, though. Fear is driving a lot of *'s support

:kick:

[Roland99]

6. Me, too.

BTW, they're dragging up the "blame Clinton" response now.


heh heh

[Don1]

11. Show the responses.

These are good reads. It's always wise to know what the crazy wing of the Republican Party is coming up with.

By the way, ever hear this one?

"The only thing you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people."

Alexander Bullock in My Man Godfrey

[Roland99]

15. Here are some more responses:

So, the liberal-rag links that you provided did have pertinent information, but the 9-11 commission had no facts.

On the WMD’s: according to your friends at the New York Times, hey reported that the WMD’s were there when our troops arrived. Remember the “October surprise” that George Soros and the gang tried to unleash? You can’t have it both ways you silly, former Republican, now centrist, but really a liberal the whole time.

Dear Terrorist Defender, Turncoat and Anti-American,

Send this to all of your poem-reading, coffee-house, intellectual-bigoted friends. These are links disputing the “no link” argument by the left. I guess you would rather do nothing and put our country at risk AGAIN! Thanks to Clinton, we have terrorists that have unstoppable creative ideas to destroy you and me and anyone else in this country and people like you are crying about what, the imperial US soldiers? Don’t respond by saying you support the soldiers but don’t support the war. That’s bunk and you know it. Hardworking Americans don’t need you and the left to apologize for our presence in the world, capitalism or the way we support third world countries. Or, that the USA is the best of the best. Hell, your lucky to have the right to spew your bullshit.

One of these is from the 9-11 commission. I guess that bi-partisan commission is wrong too.

http://www.jquinton.com/archives/002050.html

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing1/witness_larsen.htm (paragragh 13-14)

That one I love. Points to a blog and a transcript of Larsen to the 9/11 Commission that had NOTHING to do with linking Iraq to 9/11. I have no idea who's even sending that one out. These people are beyond lunatics.


How about this one in response to my question: "Where are the WMDs?"

In Iran, South Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait. You are so ignorant its disappointing. I only hope Burger King lets you keep your job after such a sad display at a debate.

:rofl:

Well then you should go to Europe where they pay 6$ a gallon and then you could be rid of this horrible country. Clinton had Bin Landen on a silver plate and let him go. You liberals should be getting the picture that we don’t buy your fascist bullshit any more.

I did have to inform that moran that fascism is a form of RIGHT-WING extremism. ;)

[HughBeaumont]

24. The 9/11 "Omission" was HARDLY bi-partisan.

They're going through every desperate talking point known to mankind at this point. Signature of administrations running on the last wispy fume.

[arcane1]

7. they're not even SAFE! They just FEEL safer

damn, they are starting to sound like touchy-feely libruls! :silly:

[crikkett]

12. CNN just announced Yellow Alert. n/t

[Roland99]

17. Fitting for the CHICKENhawks

[gratuitous]

8. Moving them goalposts as fast as they can, aren't they?

Every time one of their little talking points turns out to be complete nonsense (of course, we see it even before the inevitable happens), they come up with another one:

Iraq's a mess? How is that Bush's fault?

Our military is sitting out there like ducks on the pond at daybreak? Why don't you support the troops?

And on and on. Until of course, they retreat to the old standby: I don't have a clue . . . but neither do you! How many of your correspondents are posting from Iraq, by the way? Less than one, I'm going to bet.

[Javaman]

9. Wow! this has been a great read so far. :)

[zanne]

10. Arguing with them is useless.

Even when they've been proven wrong, they can't give up the ghost. You can't reason with irrational people. I don't bother anymore. Don't argue with a crazy person.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. Good tactic

"don't wrestle with a pig, you get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

[myrna minx]

14. Ask him when the Anthrax killer will be brought to trail.

They always seem to forget that we didn't capture a person who tried to murder our congresspeople, journalists and rank and file postal folks. Doesn't THAT count as an attack after 9-11? :shrug:

[Efilroft Sul]

21. Argh! You stole my thunder!

: )

If you really want a Freeper's head to explode, provide this comparative analysis of George W. Bush and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

FDR: Democrat, liberal, physically handicapped.
W: Republican, neoconservative, mentally challenged.

FDR: Led the United States in a two-front war.
W: Led the United States into a single-front quagmire.

FDR: Led the United States to victory in under four years.
W: Mission accomplished! (Not.)

FDR: Made sure Hitler got what he had comin'.
W: Still waiting for Osama to be smoked out, dead or alive.

FDR: United the free world against the Axis.
W: Repulsed the free world.

FDR: Slayed the dragon of European fascism.
W: Resurrected the dragon for American fascism.

[Roland99]

23. Nice!

[Roland99]

16. This one I thoroughly enjoyed reading, really. Brought up some good points

I am surprised that you did not include Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11. You did however include the New Yorker, which is almost as extreme far left as the New York Times, and some sites that have been constructed by individuals who say they know.

What I don't understand is we are not the only Country that believed that Sadam possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. And before you make a comment like, "Britain will do what we tell them" or something like that, those countries also included Germany, France, Russia, Egypt, Spain... It's funny how we are the only country that lied. That's all I'm going to say on that topic.

As far as the cost of oil goes, if you think that China's mass consumption of fossil fuels is not the main reason for the increase in crude oil prices, you need to do some more research. This time, don't look to the left for your facts. Look in the middle. Why do you think China is trying to purchase oil companies? I'm sure you have heard of supply and demand. I'm not trying to debate with you or respond with hostility, I just want you to know that some of us do not agree with what you say or believe.

Clint and Gore had the biggest fake economic boom in the 1990's. Any financial advisor will tell you about it. You can't build an economy based on paper. It burst and George W. inherited a lot of these problems.

You "9/11 happened on HIS watch! Where's Osama?" said, if you really believe that 9/11 is our administrations fault, you are not worth the time it is taking me to type this. When exactly was the election finalized? I guess we could treat things the way we always have, you know say one thing and then do another. But that hasn't seemed to work either.

Are you one of those people that want things to change and then complain because the changes that are made affect other issues? For example, you want lower taxes but complain about cuts in other places. Know that there needs to be a change in S.S. but are upset when money is diverted? Think we should have a strong military but we spend too much money?

People will always find something to complain about. No one has mentioned that are economy is out of the recession, that Afghanistan is building it's democracy, Libya has abandoned it's nuclear weapons ambitions, increased spending for education, provided prescription coverage for Medicare and Medicaid, signed a law that holds schools accountable, but I can go on and on and on.

Like you I do not like the price of gas. Unlike you, I get about 20 miles to the gallon and gas cost me $2.85 a gallon for my new car. The only way to ease gas prices is to ease demand. Or I guess we could have the govt. try and sanction or buy out other countries, but that's not the right thing to do.

I don't know if you agree with the war or not, I can tell you do not agree with the reason we went to war. Let me ask you this, do you think Sad am is a bad person? Do you think that giving the Iraqi people a chance at freedom is worth fighting for? Do you agree that the lack of education throughout the world is the main cause (directly or indirectly) of most of the world's problems?

What if: What if Afghanistan establishes a democracy, what if Iraq succeeds as well. This will be a changing point in world history and will help the world be a better place. The problem with a lot of Americans is we are too selfish. If it is not directly affecting us, why bother with it? I am so glad that the world leaders do not share your views. If that was the case, we could either be run by British rule, but probably German rule.

Stop complaining and become active. Protesting the war isn't going to do anything but create more animosity.

To which I responded:

Seymour Hersh is one of the most well-respected journalists in America. He's the last of his kind. He uncovered the My Lai massacre, and broke the Abu Ghraib story. He's been right more times than I care to count. But, nice of you to dismiss his work simply because of the magazine in which it appeared. Do you always shoot the messenger and dismiss the content?

You say Germany, France, Russia, etc. thought Saddam had WMDs. Where is your proof of that?

Yes, China's demand has increased the pressure on oil prices but consumption has not tripled in the last 5 years. This administration's policy of a weaker dollar (in order to boost exports) has caused imports to be more expensive. And, again, I ask what has this administration done to combat the high oil/gas prices, esp. considering their very critical rhetoric leveled toward Clinton/Gore in 2000?

The economy of the 1990s wasn't in the one I sent I said 'was'...was a typo fake. It was a bubble based on the Internet. There was a lot of speculation and hundreds of millions squandered by venture capitalists on an unknown business model. When Ebay had P/E ratios of 11,000 (yes, it really hit that high), people should have stopped to take note. The Internet bubble burst led us into recession and it was neither Clinton's nor Bush's fault.

The economy has recovered somewhat but it has been a corporate recovery. Personal wages since 2000 have not kept pace with the rate of inflation. In the meantime, corporate profits are rather healthy, esp. in the energy sector. This is a top-heavy recovery and it cannot continue.

Your what ifs on Afghanistan and Iraq have no bearing on the state of the world today. The Taliban is rising again in Afghanistan. We are standing with our finger in the dike in Iraq in a lose-lose situation (we lose if we pull out, we lose if we stay). The problem with this war on terror is that it's being run by ideologues, not pragmatists. That's what got us into trouble in Vietnam. Waging war for political ideologies and not for practical or defensive reasons is madness and usually invokes the Mises Effect (intervening in a situation that was itself the result of a prior intervention often results in the opposite desired effect.)

And, I am active. I would love to enter politics. I do attend rallies (such as the Freedom and Faith rally held at Central Presbyterian a few months ago.) I went to see Seymour Hersh speak at Bellarmine back in March.

I am but one but if I can reveal the truth behind this administration's veil of deception and secrecy to at least one other person, then that person can do the same elsewhere and then the momentum builds.

[Roland99]

18. And what appears to be the Grand Finale ("Run away! Run away!")

You choose to be on the wrong side of the issue and on the side of terrorists. If you are naïve enough to deny that a fuselage used for hijacker training in Iraq means that Iraq has nothing to do with worldwide terrorism than you are an idiot. I can’t sugarcoat for you anymore. You need to find a short bus to ride to work. You will be blocked from our email server because you are now a distraction.

For you, this isn’t about who said what, WMDs, or the war. This is about hating Bush and getting the White House back into the hands of the Democrats. It’s about appeasing Europe, creating a bigger constituency and more entitlements. Quit lying to yourself, move out of your parents’ basement, and grow up.

1,000 Bonus points to the person that can name the number of non sequitirs and ad hominems in there!

:rofl:

[howmad1]

19. Someone should tell that asshole freeper:

The only reason we have not been attacked since 9/11 is because the terrorists/rethuglicans have accomplished everything they set out to do:

They have:

Made us a country fearful for our safety
A country who is losing our very best young people because of lies
A country who given up most of our freedoms (Patriot Act)
A country who has lost the free worlds respect
A country that is no longer a democracy but a theocracy
A country that is quickly going bankrupt and will be beholden to Europe, the Middle East or China for our future existence
Etc.
Anybody want to add to this list?

I see absolutely no reason for another attack.

[Roland99]

20. Heh...they just blocked my email address.

:rofl:


BTW, these are people at a local mortgage company, including the Sales Manager!

he is now blocked. He is wasting too much of our time. While we are busy oiling the engine that is the American economy, he is doing research to help tear it down. Take your near-treasonous research elsewhere.

[Darkhawk32]

22. He's just mad because he's been bitch-slapped and knows it. n/t

[Ioo]

25. "How about the fact that we have not had an attack on our soil since 9/11?

Man this burns me up, this is called specious reasoning, the statment could have been made on 9/10 that we had not had a single attack, so Clinton was a god.

The simpsons said it best...

Bear Patrol...

Homer: "This bear patrol is working great"
Lisa: "How do you know"
Homer: "Well you don't see any bears do you"
Lisa: "That's specious reasoning, using your logic I could say this rock keeps away tigers"
Homer: "How does it work"
Lisa: "I don't know, but you don't see any tigers do you?"
Homer: "Lisa, I'll buy your rock"


So on Sep 10 I could have said the same thing.

[are_we_united_yet]

26. Damn! I'm amazed he didn't mention Clinton

:wow:

In fact the only reference to Clinton was yours. Or am I missing some of the conversation?