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"Fair" (National Sales) Tax not a legitimate option (Linder full of CRAP)

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:07 PM
Original message
"Fair" (National Sales) Tax not a legitimate option (Linder full of CRAP)
http://houseoflabor.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/8/23/21750/2475

The premise behind the “Fair” Tax is simple – shockingly so. The income tax should be disbanded (as should the IRS) and replaced with a 23% consumption tax on all retail purchases. The authors contend that this change will be revenue neutral, although they clearly intimate that they would prefer (maybe in the future) massive tax cuts of the “drown your government in a bathtub” variety. Serious tax policy being dictated by a talk show host . . . sounds implausible, doesn’t it? Well, whether it is or not, there are a lot of people who are taking this very seriously. There’s a bill circling Congress in support of the “Fair Tax” with several notable supporters, including Dennis Hastert and Tom Delay. As this TPMCafe post details, letters to the editor are starting to appear in favor of the plan. And, as mentioned above, the book is a runaway Amazon bestseller, with hundreds of favorable reviews. During the last election, President Bush even voiced a willingness to consider the bill, before pulling back on his comments after a groundswell of opposition.

The popular support should not be surprising - it’s easy to criticize the IRS in order to make friends (and win votes). Boortz and Linder even have a valid point: the tax code does need to be reformed; at the very least, its too confusing and too easy to cheat. (For an excellent book on where we really should start reforming the tax code, check out David Cay Johnston’s Perfectly Legal.)

The fact that the plan is gaining momentum does not make it a legitimate option, however. There is plenty of room to question Boortz and Linder’s claims: the book is a ill-supported bromide that ignores unfavorable arguments and considers the necessary data optional, at best. And, even taking the proposal at face value, it is clear that the Fair Tax reflects the business interests that financed its creation and are pushing its adoption. It’s hardly surprising that the proposal is aggressively regressive and definitely not a change that will be beneficial to people who must spend a large portion of their income to live (read: middle and lower class Americans).

Given this, we here at The Warren Reports think it is important to get the word out about this plan. Over the next couple of weeks, we’re going to take a much closer look at Boortz and Linder’s Fair Tax Book, with at least three more posts planned: one on the impact the tax will have on Middle Class Americans (is it regressive?), one on our concerns with the empirical data and consistency of the argument in the book, and a final post on issues ignored in the book (e.g. transition costs). Our hope is that we can both point out the problems with the “Fair” Tax plan and stimulate a discussion on real tax reform – tax reform that benefits all Americans, not just the political donor class.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. National sales taxes are regressive taxes, lower income groups
...are hurt the most, higher income groups the least.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Are they trying to curb consumption?
Between this and the recent bankruptcy bill, the middle and working class person will have to avoid consumption to stay afloat.

I thought our economy was built on consumption. (I could be wrong.)
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You are right.
A national sales tax will cripple the lower and middle classes, and our economy.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am beginning to think this group is trying to RUIN the US
I remember Scott Ritter saying "They are not Americans" because they were not loyal to the Constitution. I think maybe he meant more than that. These folks only have loyalty to their own money. If they turn the US into a 3rd world nation (if you'll pardon the expression--I know it's not a good one), they get cheap labor. We'll be another China.
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And Tienenman Square will come to Pennsylvania Avenue.
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 07:37 PM by evlbstrd
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. When Americans REALLY understand what is "under the hood" of this...
...it will be Civil War, Phase II.

I would not want to be a member of Bush's "base" once the working class realizes their intentions with the "National Sales Tax / Fair Tax."

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Consumption...other than "survival items"...would GRIND TO A HALT.
National Retail Federation:

http://www.nrf.com/content/default.asp?folder=govt&file=talkPoint.htm&bhcp=1&bhfv=2&bhqs=1

Talking Points for Use in Submission to President’s
Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform

Guidlines for submitting comments

Send a copy of your comments to your lawmaker

In his executive order establishing the Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform, the President asked the panel to provide revenue neutral policy options that would meet his goals of simplification, progressivity (recognizing the importance of home ownership and charity), and economic growth and job creation.

The Advisory Panel heard from 27 witnesses regarding options for reform and is now seeking comments about the potential benefits and problems with the reform proposals they received. The options can probably be divided into (1) proposals for complete replacement of the income tax system with various types of consumption tax systems, (2) proposals to create a dual tax system – by adding a consumption tax to the income tax and making reforms to the current income tax, and (3) reforms of the income tax.

All consumption tax proposals will depress consumer spending and harm the retail industry. Therefore, the retail industry will do better under a reform of the income tax.

Reform of the Income Tax

For retailers, the most important aspect of any tax reform measure is its impact on the economy. When the economy declines, consumer spending declines, and retail businesses suffer. Tax reform should not be enacted if it will cause an economic decline and a loss of jobs.

The only type reform that will not cause at least a short-term decline in the economy and jobs is reform of the income tax. Economists have testified that economic growth can be derived from removing distortions from the current system. Thus, lower rates and a broader base can achieve economic growth without a totally new system and the economic pain that would result from the transition to a new tax system.

Virtually every economist that testified before the Advisory Panel said that a complete change of the tax system would cause an economic decline for a multi-year period.

The 2000 study of tax reform proposals performed by PricewaterhouseCoopers for NRF’s Foundation showed a 3-year economic decline and a 4-year decline in employment following enactment of a national retail sales tax (NRST), and a 5-year economic decline and a 5-year decline in employment following enactment of a Flat Tax.

Although the PwC study shows that the economy would grow following the transition period for these two proposals, the economic gain would be modest relative to the dislocations during the transition period.

Many of the economists testifying before the Advisory Panel also explained that if transition rules were enacted to ameliorate the economic decline of the transition period, the desired long term economic growth that could otherwise be achieved by the reform would not occur.

Consumption Tax as a Replacement for the Income Tax

Options for replacing the income tax with a consumption tax include proposals for a National Retail Sales Tax, a Flat Tax (as originally conceived by Hall & Rabushka, although a Flat Tax can be designed to be an income tax), a Value Added Tax, and a consumed income tax (like the Nunn-Domenici USA tax). Below are bullets setting forth some of the specific problems with adopting a consumption tax as a replacement to the income tax.

Consumption taxes are highly regressive, and, therefore, do not meet the President’s criteria of being fair to all. Because lower-income households tend to spend a higher portion of their income, they would pay a higher tax relative to income level than would upper income households. A recent NRF study of H.R. 25, a proposal for a national retail sales tax, found that if that bill were enacted, families with income less than $18,000 a year would get a tax cut (because of the bill’s rebate of the tax up to the amount of the poverty level), and families with income over $100,000 would get a tax cut (because they do not need to consume as large a percent of their income). However, families with incomes between $18,000 and $100,000 a year would have a tax increase. Families earning between $18,000 and $35,000 a year would have the largest tax increase because most families in this income category must use all of their earnings for living expenditures and have no ability to save, regardless of the tax incentive to do so.

The transition from an income tax system to a consumption tax system will cause the economy to decline for several years, and therefore, does not meet the President’s criteria of being pro-growth.

A study performed for the NRF’s Foundation by PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) in 2000 found that following enactment of a national retail sales tax the economy would decline for three years, employment would decline for four years, and consumer spending would decline for eight years. Although the study showed that the economy would begin to grow in the fourth year, it found that the increase in economic growth over the ten-year modeling period was relatively modest compared to disruptions to the economy during the transition years and questioned whether the gain was worth the pain.

The 2000 PwC study found that following enactment of a flat tax, the economy would decline for 5 years, employment would decline for 5 years, and consumer spending would decline for 6 years. Economic growth in years 6 through 10 would be even more modest than under the national retail sales tax.

Consumption Tax as an Addition to the Income Tax

Several witnesses that appeared before the advisory panel suggested that a VAT be enacted as an add-on to the current income tax system, as a means to finance social security, pay for repeal of the alternative minimum tax and other income tax reforms, and fund other governmental priorities. This model is similar to that used in many European countries.

Adding a VAT in addition to the income tax will lead to a higher overall level of taxes as a percent of GDP, which will not foster economic growth.
An early NRF study of an add on VAT found that GNP would decline for four years after enactment and consumer spending would decline even longer. (Obviously, projections change depending on how the VAT is designed, but it appears clear that for several years the economy would decline compared to where it otherwise would be.)

According to a recent study by Dan Mitchell of the Heritage Foundation, the best evidence that a VAT will lead to substantial growth in the level of taxation comes from the European example. In the mid-1960’s, before any European country adopted a VAT, the burden of government in Europe was only slightly higher than it was in the United States. In Europe tax revenues were about 30% of GDP, while in the United States tax revenues were about 27% of GDP. The VAT proved to be a very easy tax to raise because it is built into the price of goods and hidden from consumers. Forty years later, taxes in Europe amount to approximately 41% of GDP, while taxes in the United States remain at about 27% of GDP. The European experience demonstrates that the VAT is a very easy tax to increase to fund increased government spending.

Adding a consumption tax to the income tax adds more regressivity to the tax system and does not meet the fairness requirement.

Adding a consumption tax to the income tax will increase complexity. Small businesses have enough trouble meeting the burdens of collecting and remitting payroll and income tax withholdings. To also impose on these businesses the burden of collecting and remitting a VAT or national retail sales tax will greatly increase their compliance burdens.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I love saying that to freeper fanatics..
Sometimes a neocon will say.."reform the tax-code, support the national sales tax!"

My response.."I do, income taxes alone can never pay for this war or balance the budget."

neocon.."dammit, dat ain't what I mint!!"

me.."It ain't?"

neocon.."no, I mean abolish the * income tax!!!"

me.."so you're also against this war??"

neocon.."I'm for dis war, just against the IRS!!"

me.."then how do you pay for it and balance the budget?"

neocon.."screw it, who cares?" :crazy:
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Our economy is now...
... dependent upon consumption.

It wasn't always that way--at one time (before the massive Reagan tax cuts and increases in defense spending), we depended upon manufacturing and exports--that began to change in 1973, with the Nixon determination to create an economy based on financialization, rather than manufacturing.

Dependency upon a single sector doesn't create a stable economy, especially in a tax environment which has created so much debt. But, accurately, I think, this dependency upon consumption has been growing slowly and steadily for over thirty years, as has the decline in real wages in that same period of time. Those two things together are bad enough. Add in a very regressive tax which won't cover the budget, and the economic situation gets much worse, much more quickly.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. And Bush wants to knee-cap that dependency.
Just like Nancy Kerrigan after Jeff Gilooly's Tonya Harding-requested blow to the kneecaps, the Unites States Economy will be on the floor. clutching its knee, tears streaming down its face, howling "WHY? WHY? WHY?"

If you are a working American, George W. Bush wants to sodomize you in order to line the pockets of his fucking "base"...so the time has come for you to BEND OVER AND ACCEPT IT or FUCKING FIGHT BACK.

September 30th: Bush's "Tax Advisory Panel" turns in their "recommendations."

A CONSUMPTION TAX WILL be on the list.

THAT is all you need to know about the "National Sales Tax" / "Fair Tax"...

and John Linder is a FUCKING COWARD for changing its name. He only did that because "National Sales Tax" came under scrutiny and received bad press. He's a COWARD, he's a WHORE, and he need s to be made aware of that:

http://linder.house.gov/
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. more fraud and chicanery and corporate welfare n/t
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Tax on "retail purchases" And... on any and ALL labor also...
Sounds like a little tidbit that Boortz seems to never mention. That could be anything from having your house painted,new tile carpet etc...

Don't think that wouldn't add up? Right now in most States sales tax is only charged on goods,not on the labor to "install" those goods. That would add up to thousands per year extra that you don't pay now.

End cheating?? Is Boortz SO naive to think that all labor with 35-40% "Fair tax" added on will be sent to the Federal Government?? Make me laugh Boortz. It'll unleash a whole new way to cheat....
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Tax on RENT and MEDICAL VISITS...
All goods AND serviced would be taxed.

Americans who are MASTURBATING over the "death of the IRS" need to realize that the government needs to make the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY...if not MORE...than the IRS is pulling in right now.

Nancy Pelosi's take on this:

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. How about a very small tax on money, everytime it leaves an account?
I heard a proposal for this once. Everybody pays it. No exceptions. The tax for most individuals is very low because corporations end up having to pay their fair share. They obviously have to move massive amounts of money.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Here it is. The Electronic Funds Transfer Tax.
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