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BushCo has been stealing so much $$$, they must have some plan for the $$$

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FormerRepublican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:03 PM
Original message
BushCo has been stealing so much $$$, they must have some plan for the $$$
We're talking billions upon billions of money that fell into a dark hole in Iraq. Chalabi is in charge of the oil ministry in Iraq (and you know he can't resist skimming the cash). Reports have said that Rumsfeld's defense has misplaced trillions in $$$.

There's got to be a plan behind all this disappearing cash. The last time a Bush was looting, he was funding Iran/Contra. But I'm at a loss as to what subversive war (Iraq, though reprehensible, is not subversive since our participation is public) is BushCo planning to fund?

Where are BushCos greedy little eyes focusing and what makes them salivate like Pavlov's dogs?

People have said Iran, but I suspect that will be another public war. Where are Bush and Cheney planning to strike covertly?
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Our Pocket books
Where else!!
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Going Down The Line Here,,,, Welcome To Your Addiction!
Glad to have you here, we are a feisty but mostly friendly lot!


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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. TY
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. My guesses wd be Iran & Venezuela, & probably elsewhere--
not excluding the U.S.
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democrat_patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hiring mercenaries to fight in Iran
and Venezuela. Who's going to protest mercenaries getting killed?

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FormerRepublican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Could they be planning a coup in the US in 2008?
I wouldn't think they'd need to squirrel the money away for that, since they'd just steal it from the treasury. But if they need to hire mercenaries because they think our military wouldn't support their coup (lord, I hope not), then they might need some cold, hard $$$.

What steps would you need to take if you were planning a coup in the US?
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. I can't answer your question, but were you really once a Republican?
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 01:05 AM by iconoclastic cat
Because you sound like...well, a DUer.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I used to be a Republican as well.
I have to say I'm now much more a concerned American than either a Republican or a Democrat. That seems quite irrelevant to me these days. We are in four alarm mode of all Americans coming together now.

I am not as concerned with parties these days or even labels, as I am with being concerned with Americans deserving and moreover, being responsible for fully acknowledging the truth.

Our future now depends on Americans being willing to face the truth of both our history and our present situation.

The reality is there are those in both this Administration and our own government who are striving for Americans' complicity, our resignation, our enslavement and ultimately it looks like our own destruction.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Well, I agree with and applaud you both.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. South America is gradually slipping...
... away from US influence, and that's a possibility (although there has been some visible military activity there, particularly in Paraguay).

But, what I think will be an ongoing effort on the Bushies' part is protracted covert action across the continent of Africa. Oil, strategic minerals, making inroads for corporate agriculture, etc.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. How interesting you bring up Paraguay. Rumsfeld was just there
on a 'secret' visit which apparently was tipped off.

Why was he in Paraguay?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Probably helping reinforce...
... Paraguay's resolve about arbitrarily allowing US troops to build a base there, and reviewing our troops there....
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Then why aren't we building our military instead of outsourcing and
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 01:03 AM by shance
privatizing it?

Why is the Carlyle now investing in China and other countries?

I think those are the more important questions Americans must ask.

If individuals like Rumsfeld were interested in building our army with Americans, they would be creating incentives for Americans to join the military. They would also have instituted a draft. They aren't doing that.

Why? Is it because they know they cannot fully dominate our military?

They are funneling money outside the US, and I believe the more vital question is why?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'm not sure I understand the direction of all...
... your questions. In general, draft or no draft, to my mind, a larger military--especially with a significant amount of it stationed overseas--invites mischief on the part of people like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

The services don't want a draft. They've said so, repeatedly. As for not being able to fully dominate the military, any bunch in the White House can do that. The military goes along grudgingly or enthusiastically, depending on their top structure and who's in the White House--that's the nature of civilian control of the military. Rumsfeld has gotten his way--Schoomaker is Rumsfeld's kiss-ass, so he's now the Army Chief of Staff.

In the Kennedy administration, for example, the dynamic was different, but Kennedy still managed to exert control--the top brass then was not just hawkish, they were downright reactionary and some, including Gen. Edwin Walker, were advocating those in their command to do everything possible to resist civilian control of the military. The situation was bad enough that Kennedy had to enlist the help of Eisenhower to warn the top brass to come to heel. Walker had to be stripped of his command and the Joint Chief, Lyman Lemnitzer, was pulled out of his job in the Pentagon and sent to NATO.

The other thing working in the Republicans' favor is that the lack of the draft has changed the mix of the military. The NY Times had an article this weekend on how the lack of the draft has changed the composition of the military. Where, in the old days, the composition was very nearly 50 Democrat/50 Republican, it's now roughly 8 Republican/1 Democrat.

They aren't really outsourcing the military--at least in the sense that all the jobs are going to other countries--but the privatization of the military has been Cheney's plan all along, since he was Sec. of Defense during the elder Bush's administration. It's just another way to transfer tax monies to US defense corporations. It was purported to be done as a means of propping up an all-volunteer military and as a cost-saving measure, but the latter has definitely turned out not to be true. It's just a way of pumping more money into the coffers of defense corporations.

I'm not sure what you mean by funneling money outside the US--might help if you offered examples of what you mean. If you're saying that we're putting lots of bases and troops overseas, that's very true, and the intent is purely neo-imperial--it has nothing to do with defense of our own territories. Rather, it has everything to do with controlling natural and labor resources around the world on behalf of American business. The US has been doing that ever since Commodore Perry's trips to Japan in the 1850s.

As for how all this relates to Paraguay, I'm not sure--we're not outsourcing the military there. We're building ourselves a new base about 200km from the Bolivian border, staffed by US troops. Bolivia is one of those places that the government may soon change hands to those who are openly antagonistic toward the US, and the reasonable supposition is that US troops may be there to encourage the right-wing elements in the Bolivian army and give them behind-the-scenes support if there's a military coup--or we may be secretly training Bolivian troops for that very purpose.

Cheers.


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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Money being "funneled" as in where's it going?
What are the trillions being used for that have mysteriously vanished from the DOD books?

Who obtained this money and what is it now being used for? Is it perhaps and to ask logically being used to create other armies, etc? Trillions is a lot of equity that is now apparently missing.

It's really rather elementary as in, where's the money going, what is it being used for and who has the power to use it?

And of course, the ever popular question of cui bono?

As far as Paraguay and other countries in South and Central America, we can look back to Smedley Butler and other military officials who have been willing to tell the truth about our involvement there.

Historically the countries have been exploited and used by those with larger business that humanitarian interests, to say the least.

The question is how and why exactly are they being used today?

Are they being used to create other militias as in Iran/Contra, and who are they specifically being used for and/or against?

My concern is that if our own Administration continues to weaken every aspect of our economy and our military (you can review the number of military officers who have been fired and/or demoted)who have been removed from their duties, Americans have certainly the right to both wonder and actively investigate what is occuring right now?



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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Okay, that explains a bit of it...
... and I have to say that the money isn't "missing," as much as it can't be accounted for in the Pentagon's accounting system. Even if it were missing, there's no evidence that it is being funneled overseas, nor for nefarious purposes (at least not the bulk of the couple of trillion in question).

Let me offer these two things as examples of what I think is going on. First, in the early `80s, the Reagan administration was desperate to help out its California friends--that's why Northrop and Rockwell got the B-2 and B-1 contracts, respectively. In the case of Northrop, there was incredible waste in the R&D part of that contract, which ultimately was added to the unit cost of the B-2. By the late `80s, Air Force auditors went to Northrop and found, for example, that the government was being billed for supercomputer time to design the B-2 when the time, in fact, was being used by some designers to design houses they were building for themselves. The Northrop books were in such a mess that the Air Force auditors, just to keep the project going, told Northrop to wipe the books clean and start over. And that, in 1989, was the third time that they let Northrop start the books over.

Now, here's another part of what accounts for the accounting mess. When Caspar Weinberger got his tit in a wringer over lying about Iran-Contra, Frank Celluci took over. In his fourteen months or so as Secretary of Defense, he took it upon himself to completely revamp the purchasing system of the DoD. Supposedly, he was streamlining it. In fact, he was making it harder to determine where in the government the DoD was spending money. Some contracting was done directly by the Pentagon, some classes of contracts were to be administered by the GSA. Some spending was even squirreled away in the Department of Agriculture.

What Celluci was doing was creating hiding places for defense spending. When one looks at the discretionary budget, everyone says, "oh, defense is 18-19% of the budget." Nope. It didn't get much press, but there's a little-known agency called the Bureau of Economic Analysis. They recently issued a report based on a line item-by-line item examination of the entire budget, not just the DoD's portion. They found that actual military budgeting (not counting the defense share of debt interest paid each year) was actually 56% of the total budget.

Combine that, the LOGCAP no-bid system created by Cheney in 1991-2, and the waste, and you can probably account for most of that couple of trillion dollars that's unaccountable over the last decade. I don't think that money is funding huge private armies overseas (that sort of thing isn't invisible), but it has, rather, been funneled into the pockets of defense contractors of a growing number of types. One of those types is so-called private security contractors (mercenaries) of which we've seen a great explosion, in Iraq, for example.

The interesting thing about those covert operations you suggest all this money is being spent upon is that one couldn't hide spending $2 trillion in that way. It would literally turn economies upside-down in a great many places. These shadowy affairs are actually pretty cheap to run. Consider this. A significant portion of the Soviet Army was in Afghanistan from 1980-1989. One would think it would take a tremendous amount of money to drive them out. The US spent about $3 billion over ten years and the Saudis contributed roughly an equal amount (much of which wasn't spent on the insurgency effort--the Saudi money was being handled by Pakistani intelligence, ISI, and they squirreled away a considerable portion of that with the intention of using the money to support the Taliban when the war with the Soviets was over). Funding that conflict for ten years cost less than $5 billion. Iran-Contra was even cheaper. That whole operation, involving almost 30,000 fighters for several years was financed on the overcharges from a few arms sales to Iran. The cocaine money involved wasn't really being used to fund the contras to any great extent as much as it was going into people's pockets.

As a further example, let's look at Paraguay. Let's say the US's intentions are to create a military coup in Bolivia. The Bolivian Army has about 25,000 soldiers. Say, the US needs ten percent of those to initiate the coup and, say, 10,000 indigenous Paraguayans to help out. Pay them $100/mo for six months of training and they think they're making a fortune. The US taxpayer is paying for the base to do the training and you need a surreptitious source for the incidentals. You can feed, clothe, equip and train 12,500 indigenous fighters for six months on about $25 million.

Now, as for the taxpayers having the right to know how the money's spent. Yup, they do. But, if Congress doesn't demand that accounting, doesn't cut off the Pentagon until they comply, it won't happen. The Congress has given up a tremendous amount of oversight responsibility in the past few decades, and they deserve considerable opprobrium for that. But, as a nation, we keep on electing the people who are beholden to the corporations making all that money off of taxpayer dollars. Until we throw out those bastards, we won't get that accounting and that oversight.

Cheers.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Pun pirate, if anyone should be aware, it's you.
Edited on Sat Aug-27-05 04:32 AM by shance
You've been following the election fraud for some time now, and yet now you appear to assume we are now having fair elections??

Have I missed a Punpirate chapter?

I have to add in addition it seems you are now supporting that our government now engages in 'fair accounting'.

It would certainly take more that Bolivia to take over a country like the US. However trillions of dollars are missing. You havent answered the question perhaps you like myself cannot answer it. Where did the trillions of dollars skatter off to?

IF we don't have an ethical accounting system of checks and balances how in the world can you state that they can't "hide" such money in this or that way. They can do anything they damned well please with a compliant, disregarding, distracting media in which they own, along with other business institutions that could clean up that money.

In addition, one could legitimately pose the question, who says they are even trying to hide the theft these days?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Umm, let's back up a moment...
... I didn't mention elections at all--except to say the nation continues to elect the very people who will not bring the DoD to account. You assume incorrectly. If you believe that recent election fraud is somehow directly responsible for this $2 trillion DoD accounting error, then you haven't been reading up on your post-WWII defense spending history--something I have been trying to do for some time.

I didn't say anything about "fair accounting." I said the DoD's accounting was a mess--and I provided examples of that. That doesn't mean the money left the country, and, in fact, I suggest that the money went into the pockets of defense contractors for the enrichment of those firms and their stockholders--that's much more plausible than the scenario you're vaguely suggesting.

I wasn't talking about Bolivia taking over the US. I was talking about how cheap it would be for the US to aid a military coup to take over the government of Bolivia, for the benefit of US firms. Please read what I actually write.

You consistently describe the $2 trillion or so as "missing." Do you have any training in accounting? Do you get it that it's very possible that the money may have been spent according to the budget for legitimately let contracts, but that the paperwork, rather than the money, is missing? I gave you a couple of very specific examples of how that happened and why.

I'm simply not buying into a tinfoil argument that this $2 trillion has been diverted to support secret wars around the world--first and foremost because it can be done a lot more cheaply than that. Moreover, we have plenty of authorized spending for that sort of thing (even if its black status is not known to a high percentage of Congress critters because of laws that Congress has itself passed), and the reasons I suggest for this inability to account are just as valid a presumption for this accounting error as any--and a lot more likely.

Now, for your last point. If you pump enough dollars into a small, developing country, you overheat its economy and inflation skyrockets. The amount of money you're talking about (from news reports, about $2 trillion over ten years), distributed in places of interest to the US--say, Nigeria, Ecuador, Bolivia, places which have struggling economies and small GDPs and oil interests--would create enormous inflation in those countries separate and apart from any stupidity created by their own governments. That level of inflation isn't apparent. That was one of the unrecognized lessons of Vietnam--we overheated that economy very badly, by war spending, and to an incredible degree--which further eroded public trust in the S. Vietnamese government--and the money spent locally in Vietnam was a fairly small amount of total war spending.

Were we actually spending the sort of money you suggest in those out-of-the-way places in the world that have enough value to US corporations to destabilize their governments, they would have completely collapsed long ago. In fact, those countries are struggling because we're taking real wealth out of them, rather than putting huge amounts of fiat currency into them in the financing of wars.

Always remember Occam's Razor--the simplest explanation is almost always the correct one.

Cheers.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. As always, you have great points*
I stand corrected on any presumptuous assertions I made.

I think it's difficult to know what to think these days when we are left to speculate and hypothesize on so many of the actions being taken by this Administration and many within our government.

One thing is certain in all this ambiguity: is whether it be our elections or defense spending, we need transparency in both the 'counting' of our votes and accounting of our tax dollars.

:)
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. WELCOME TO D.U.!
Great to have you here. Do YOU know something WE don't know???

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FormerRepublican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thanks. I don't have any secret info.
I only know that what I DO see has me :scared:.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ice Cold Fear....
Been saying it for a long long time now! I'm a Boomer and was around when we Protested Viet Nam!

Ready to go to D.C. on September 24th and can't wait!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. I believe they are destroying the military now so they can PRIVATIZE it.
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 09:42 PM by blm
Meaning only the corporations and a handful of individuals could AFFORD it, and the average citizen will have to buy security just like they do home security from companies like ADT.

They'll still take our tax dollars while the military will be loyal only to their immediate employers.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Well, one might say privatize, another might say to make it vulnerable.
to other outsourced armies?

Are they making our own military vulnerable so it will be much easier to take it over?

This would be akin to their every action to weaken and outsource our businesses and already corporatized economy.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't forget the trillions they stole from the DOD before 9-11.
They "lost" it.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. setting up a BCCI-like front and going stateless
They're planning to strike the US by enslaving it to the IMF and/or World Bank and marching in with mercenaries if/when the government tries to escape from the trap. Their domestic policies are effectively IMF austerity measures as it stands.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. They kept a lot of it for themselves.
They've secretly bought absolutely STUNNING villas in Madagascar outside Africa. These are stately homes. They're going to live pretty close to each other, so they can visit each other, and laugh about the "Good Old Days" in Washington, when they scammed the U.S. treasury and got away with it.

Yes, RumsFailed will be sitting in Cheney's Living room, having a Double Martini on the Rocks. He'll be sucking out the little red thing out of the green olive, as they reminisce about the Wild Times.

They'll share a laugh or two. Those two always were close, like Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.

Little do they realize, in about 6 months their homes will be gone from the rising water level from Global Warming.

"Make sure your homeowner's Insurance is paid up, Don"
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-05 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
24. Oh, I think if they do Iran, it will start covertly. See this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2037110
Thread title: All the pieces are on the board, folks....time to get worried

and don't miss reply #42, which adds the factor of the hawk faction of the Likud, which REALLY wants "regime change" in Iran and has been taking steps that look like they may start the attack with secret Bush support.

And remember those 500 bunker-busting bombs the US sold to Israel after the 2004 elections? That's in Reply #42 too - they're almost certainly intended for the underground nuclear facilities in Iran.
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