Anyone else think the US is about to implode?

[MadisonProgressive]

1 Iraq is a disaster
2 Katrina heading towards NO, and OIL RIGS...
3 Freepers getting violent in Crawford
4 Can't afford to drive to work anymore
5 Bush warning "Our efforts in Iraq and the broader Middle East will require more time, more sacrifice and continued resolve"

6 Do I really have to go on?

[lvx35]

1. Yes, but it would take time.

It could still be reversed. To be honest the things that terrify me most are about the money and the oil. I have this reoccuring nightmare where I am at the store and a loaf of bad bread is $7, and the whole economy is like that.

[Mass]

6. What terrifies me is the environment?

Bush is selling the country to the highest bidder, pollution and climate change are higher and higher, and more and more kids become sick because of that. Nobody cares.

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. No intrinsic reason why it can't.

The French Fourth Republic did not survive the war in Algeria.

And there's nothing magic about this Republic, that makes it immune to civil strife.

[Jamison]

3. Let me fix #5 for you.

5 Bush warning "Our efforts in Iraq and the broader Middle East will require more time, more sacrifice, more wars and continued resolve"

Now it's more accurate.:sarcasm:

[Soup Bean]

4. No. We'll get through this somehow.

People are starting to demand real solutions to problems. People will begin stepping up soon. America is NOT dead.

[rockymountaindem]

7. Thanks for the ray of sunshine.

I needed that. I keep reminding myself that America has been through worse before.

[El Supremo]

5. I've been thinking that for a long time.

You can add: Our jobs outsourced overseas.

[bribri16]

8. "more sacrifice" means our children but not the Bushbots' n/t

[gumby]

9. Your question caused me to think of bodily functions.

Maybe instead of 'imploding,' this country is going to go through a symbolic bout with a bad flu epidemic.

1 Projectile vomiting
2 Massive diarrhea
3 Alternating burning fever and shivering chills
4 Excruciating headaches
5 Bouts of delirium
6 Drug induced pain relief

Maybe, just maybe, this country will recover from this 'epidemic' without 'imploding.' After all, we are seeing many signs of recovering patients.

[Eloriel]

10. I felt very strongly that IF we went to war on Iraq, it would be`

"the beginning of the end" for the U.S. Yes, "the end" would take some time, but that historians would look back and mark that as "the beginning."

I don't know that it's reversible at this point, not with the debt, not with Bush still in office for a few more years, not with the global warming and other environmental changes, and Peak Oil. And so forth!

But if you really stop and think about it: given our current behavior (and our recent past -- since WW2 if not before), won't the end of hegemony be the best thing for the rest of the planet? The planet can't sustain us. Period. And there are a lot of people and things on the other parts of the planet that IMO deserve to live too. :shrug: I'm not rooting for the demise of the U.S., but in the cosmic scheme of things I can see that it may be necessary -- or at least desirable -- for the greater good.

And too funny that we will have done it to ourselves, if it happens. What an incredible cosmic joke that would be!

[lvx35]

12. good post!

Yeah, that's the big thing. The planet cannot sustain the US. There is a test here:
http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp
That tells you how many earth's are needed to sustain you. For me, it was like 3.1 for a guy living in poverty in africa, its like 0.2 take the test and find out where you stand.
According to this site, the fact of the matter is either the US will change radically, or our dependencies will cause us to create genocide. There is no other options. And looking at things, basically the united states isn't willing to change radically without an outside force causing that change.

[Eloriel]

15. Wow, thanks for that link

Not sure I'm up to finding out what my score is tonight, but I'm definitely bookmarking it.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

32. I have honestly wondered this too

Not only the massive environmental destruction caused by so many complacent and ignorant LGFers (and admittedly some Dems too) belching crap out of their SUV's and the blank check given to US corporations to pollute worldwide.

That's bad enough-- but the USA also has thousands of nuclear weapons in "ready-to-launch" positions, combined with sufficient numbers of fanatics in high places who think they could bring about the Rapture by launching them, and a military-industrial complex that benefits from them further.

In almost every other developed country, there's a reverence for the environment and a desire to protect it. In Japan, Germany, France, the Netherlands people are obsessive about minimizing pollution, using renewable fuels, promoting forest protection, supporting girls' education to reduce the birth rate in overpopulated regions-- while in the US, the government at least has an almost anti-ecological stance, even against such sacred landmarks, like the National Parks, that a *Republican*-- Teddy Roosevelt-- was responsible for initiating. Makes me wonder sometimes if a declined, no-longer-superpower US would somehow be safer for the world, by removing our nuclear weapons threat and reducing our impact on the environment.

I wish we could have the best of both worlds, i.e. the technological drive and entrepreneurial spirit of the US, w/o all the crap-- the evangelical religious fanaticism, the warmongering, the laissez-faire and often deliberately hostile attitudes to the environment. That would be a major advance.

[wli]

37. they've already caused the US to create genocide n/t

[gumby]

21. "The beginning of the end"

has been a long standing prediction. I'm not saying that you are incorrect. The current situation does indeed seem grim. However, I remember my Mother telling me she had much the same feelings when the atomic bombs went off on Japan.

I remember my parents explaining to me, at a very young age, why they were not building a Bomb Shelter. Things looked determinedly destructive then too.

Throughout history, Renaissances have occurred. We just might be lucky enough to see the blooming of the next one. The 'energy crisis' might be the spark.

[lvx35]

24. Thomas Jefferson and Philip K. Dick.

There are two quotes I remember when I feel sad about all this:

"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government;... whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price, 1789. ME 7:253

And when I think of the media keeping the above process from happening, I remember this:

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." ~Philip K. Dick

[Eloriel]

30. Oh, hell, I lived thru the Bomb Shelter era -- this is worse by an

order of magnitude. This is way worse.

BUT, you have a good point re blooming of a new Renaissance. I just don't think the U.S. will be ascendant for it.

[leanin_green]

35. The Decline of Rome: Act II.

Didn't Rome in it's beginning(howbeit a bloody one, we're not much different there), bring to the world a new vision of government and civilization. Much of the known world that Rome conquered took on some of the Roman style for themselves after Rome left their borders, ie., Britain, Gaul, ect. For all its barbarity, Rome did have some appeal. But, as Rome declined morally, economically and militarily, they became the scourge of the known world. Hated, reviled and finally turned against and made to retreat from much of its conquered lands, Rome became a major power no more. Rome became the problem that the rest of the world had to solve.

Flash forward to present day and see if there aren't any similarities. All around the world there are protests and vandalism against the American culture that is exported to other parts of the world(ala McDonalds and other corporate chains that have no redeeming value). The whole uprising and hatred of America from the radical extremists of Islam is centered in what they perceive as the undermining of their cultures by an exported brand of American values that they detest. The rest of the free world is already beginning to band together to deal with American expansionism. Remember what happened to the English Empire after the Boer War one hundred years ago. There are eerily similar reflections from then and our excursion into the "wider Middle East." Soon after the pronouncement of the end to major operations in the Boer War, a bloody two year guerrilla war ensued that cost the English dearly. If it were not for their willingness to act in a calculatedly brutal way, they may well have lost that war and the end of their empire would have followed sooner rather than later in WWII. Yes, we are now in decline and heading there fast. But, I believe, we'll always be around and a major player. Just not THE player. Consider the fact about the just concluded joint military exercises between Russia and China. Routine? I think not. More like preparation and readiness for an unstable American foreign policy.

[calimary]

45. Funny, I can't find a whole lot of anything to disagree about, Eloriel.

I've often wondered that myself, whether it's US and our greed and our hyper-consumerism and our wanton squandering of our precious planet's finite resources and our selfish grab for everybody else's resources and our trashing of nations and other nations' leaders because they don't immediately and humbly hand over all their nations' riches to us - to consume.

What I hate is that my family, my kids, and I, are trying to live into the idea of conservation and wise use of resources and trying to discipline ourselves against wastefulness, and to remain vigilant about our custodianship of the earth, and to help show our friends and extended family members and all their kids - and we'll be dragged down into this, too, despite our best efforts.

Like you, Eloriel, I, too, am NOT rooting for the end of the U.S. It's MY country, too. But one does have to stop and wonder, and take stock, about the cavalier behavior we're showing, versus the rest of the world. It seems to me as though we're the spoiled brat-child or unruly "I know more than you" teenager spitting in the face of the family elders who've known poverty and sacrifice and the hardest of hard work, and who paid in blood, sweat, and tears, for everything they've earned, and we're just taking it all for granted and squandering it. But when you compare most of the other nations in the world - that are centuries, if not millenia, older than we are - we're the pipsqueak of the planetary family with our measly 230-some-odd years of existence. We're spoiled, coddled, and completely in the dark. The wisdom of age and experience is NOT ours.

[democrank]

11. Things are really in a terrible mess, but

more and more people realize that now and are starting to speak out. Stay strong. We`ll get through this together.

[iconoclastic cat]

13. Sometimes--like, now--I think we are about to bust apart.

I don't see how this can continue.

[MadisonProgressive]

14. I was browsing the LBN before I posted this thread

there is NOTHING but bad news afoot. Worse that I've ever seen it. I hope I'm wrong, but common sense tells me we are treading new ground here.

[Eloriel]

31. "treading new ground" --

we also seem to be treading new metaphors.

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I rarely engage in such, but this one struck me as so cute and amusing I had to say something.

[MadisonProgressive]

40. What? I'm not allowed to invent metaphors?

Are you from Metaphor Enforcement? :spray:

[Eloriel]

49. Oh, please, please, invent away

I gotta have SOME amusement in my dreary life :bounce: :bounce: (and that one was really cute)!

[bemildred]

16. Just warming up.

We're getting close to where things were in the 70s,
but not there yet.

[iconoclastic cat]

17. Please elaborate!

What do you me, "we're getting close to where things were"?

[bemildred]

19. I'm saying the level of civil unrest is still less than it was then.

If you weren't there then it's hard to understand.
There are many factors. People were shot over gasoline.
The government was at war with its citizens, and losing.
We are beginning to see that, but it's not at the level
that was everywhere then. Things are not fucked up enough.
The government is even more incompetent than it was then,
but it takes time for things to fall apart.

[lvx35]

22. There seems to be so many wildcards flying around...

I see your point...But its not so much where we are that frightens me personally, but where we might soon be!

[bemildred]

26. I'm not saying I'm not nervous, but actually, it was a great time to be

alive. It's a very rich country we live in, and there was a
great deal more personal freedom, lack of paranoia, then there
is now. I would pay $5 for gas anytime to have that sense of
personal autonomy again.

[MichiganVote]

28. Yup. Those of us around then sense the track we're on now...

Time and the continued spiraling of events...

[Arkham House]

18. "We Cannot Escape History..."

Yes--I've felt at least as far back as Clinton's "impeachment" that something is fundamentally wrong with our republic...the 2000 election reaffirmed this feeling. We had a coup d'etat, and no one, except perhaps Vincent Bugliosi, really noticed. It's difficult to feel that our Constitutional system has any real vitality anymore, that it survives on inertia and little else. The vote-stealing in 2004 is yet another symptom--God knows, there's nothing unusual about that in our history, but there *is* something new about the coordinated attempt to nationalize election cheating by one party, and directed from the White House...
The Iraq War and oil are bad symptoms, but they're only symptoms of a much deeper malady. The Founding Fathers were pessimists, who were very uncertain about the American Republic's ability to survive. We've had major crises--the Civil War, the Depression, WW II, the Cold War--and we've gotten thru them. We've almost forgotten the warnings of the Founders about the historical instability of republics...but I think the crisis we face, the structural rot, the sheer goonery of the Republican Party and its contempt for democracy--a contempt you can hear on any talk radio show...all of this makes me fear for the republic, as I never did, even during the nuclear balance-of-terror. I'm not that old--51--but I fear I might live to see the American Republic's last days and the de facto establishment of an authoritarian, Caesaristic "empire" braced by religious fundamentalism... There is always hope, but the forces destroying the republic seem stronger to me than the forces that want to maintain it.

[gumby]

25. Well said.

I've posted several times that the the US, like the USSR might just choose Vodka (and 'Survivor' et al). We shall see, won't we? Amazing Times, eh?

[Kurovski]

27. Welcome to DU, Arkham House!

There is hope, the forces that wish to maintain the Republic are growing. The media--it seems to me--have helped to suppress that growth, so the process has been stymied.

It's far from too late to reverse things in this nation.

[Arkham House]

33. Thanks--and I Hope You're Right...

This place, itself, gives me some of the main hope I have...it's saved my sanity more than once...:-)...but one party in this country is still playing by democratic rules, and another is essentially totalitarian in its mentality...and the "media"--not the vermin at Fox, but the MSM--doesn't seem to care... Oh well. "Interesting times", anyone?

[Kurovski]

34. You're a thoughtful writer. I hope to read more in the future.

The times are much too interesting for my tastes. I'm somewhat more phlegmatic by nature.

But, what'cha gonna do?

[MadisonProgressive]

41. As a nation, maybe

but the world is falling apart environmentally, and we live in that world too. We have consumed the resources and polluted everything else. There are dire predictions about the results of global warming and resource depletion which seem to be beyond our ability to meaningfully influence for the better - a point of no return. That seems to trump all other ills that in the past we've been able to recover from.

[Kurovski]

44. Six years ago I use to say " It's already too late"

in regard to the environment.

I don't believe that anymore. Many will pay with their health and lives, some already have. (Asthma, Cancer, etc.) But we can do enough to give it all a chance to repair itself.

I believe it's most likely that life will be very changed indeed.

We need nations to work with each other (just like on terrorism) We need America to be as strong as it is on paper.

The Bush administration's foreign policy is as much a threat to our health and survival by way of the environment as it is by its "bringing on" of the terrorists.

Bush never, not ever addresses the actual issues regarding either terrorism or the environment.

Their motives on both are to profit financially while appearing not to have profit as their main priority. For a secretive administration, they are very transparent.

[leanin_green]

47. I agree wholeheartedly, however. . .

I would add that what we are witnessing around your statement, "There is always hope, but the forces destroying the republic seem stronger to me than the forces that want to maintain it," is the fact that those who want to maintain the republic are still in a state of denial and disbelief that this is really happening. The evidence is all around us, even here at DU. Many of us can't shake the habit of trying to rally the party for the next election cycle. This, to me, is an effort in futility. It goes back to your statement, ". . .but there is something new about the coordinated attempt to nationalize election cheating by one party, and directed from the White House. . ." I suggest that the attempt is also a proven reality of our times. They've attempted it, accomplished it and, so far, have gotten away with it.

I'm often taken by the fact that most Americans consider the vision of the framers of the Constitution has been accomplished by the sheer fact that the United States exists. However, a deeper look is necessary. The vision of the Founding Fathers was the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution was the attempt of those who existed in that time to compromise with that vision by applying it within the context of their peculiar reality. The Declaration is a noble vision. Something to be striven for. It was a seed moment in the collective body of humanity at a time of rampant abuses of power by royal entities that claimed the absolute power over its subjects. A rebellion born of the suppression of individual ability by the dictates of social class. The oppression of human dignity by the whims of the ruling class. The Constitution has been worked and reworked in order to make it relevant in whatever time it has found itself within. Certain precepts are born of the original vision of the Declaration in an effort to support and nurture core principles contained within it and are therefore unassailable. And now, we have a group that has usurped power over the rest of us and would seek to force or use political 'slight of hand' to create its twisted vision of empire and absolutism upon a nation asleep at the wheel. A nation in shock and disbelief at what is transpiring before their eyes. Shake the cobwebs out of your sleepy heads, my people, and wipe the sleep from your eyes and greet the new day. There are challenges ahead.

[enigma000]

20. I can't see it

I just took a road trip from Chicago to St. Pete's, Florida (and back again) to states and cities I've never visited before: Cincinnati, Atlanta, Knoxville, Detroit. From what I can see the spirit of the American people is strong. Everywhere there were flags on buildings and private homes, friendly staff at shopping malls, courteous passer-bys who helped directionally challenged tourists. And lots of painted ribbons on cars & trucks.

Now granted I was on the Interstate much of the time but I never got the impression that an implosion was coming. I just can't envision Atlanta and Florida national guards clashing over the Florida panhandle. Or much support for Tennessee mountain men of the Appellation Mountains doing a first strike on Kentucky.

Just saying

[MadisonProgressive]

42. Keep thinking those good thoughts!

I think you're in for a very rude awakening.

[Lecky]

23. Nope...

Things have been getting mighty tense lately, but I am confident that our country will get through this mess...I still have much hope. I'm more worried about the mess we have made in Iraq and the people suffering over there.

Another thing I worry about and it only seems to be getting worse is that I think our country is getting more and more polarized...and I don't like it, nothing good will come out of that.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

29. Housing bubble about to collapse, US $ down the tubes

The only two aspects propping up the US GDP these days are consumer spending and house building, and *both* of these are based on credit generously lent from Chinese bankers. In other words, US growth is a mirage; as we outsource away all our high-tech jobs and gut our knowledge economy, we block our capacity to produce anything marketable.

This isn't going to last much longer. Zhao Xiaochuan, China's Alan Greenspan, has already moved the renminbi away from the dollar peg (with China therefore accumulating more euros, won, and yen than dollars). Moreover, Venezuela, Russia, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Iran are already selling some of their oil in Euros, with Iran initiating a Euro-based oil bourse in March 2006. So we basically have a bubble economy in the USA rooted in a currency (the dollar) that's becoming increasingly worthless. Not the best formula.

[geckosfeet]

36. You still have a job to drive to? n/t

[wli]

38. yes, it's about to economically implode

The wars aren't going much of anywhere. There is no domestic manufacturing base to support them.

[gokar]

39. Corporate profits, Treasury tax receipts, Employed persons,

etc are at all time highs. US may implode sometime in future
mainly due to excessive debt load. But the time for that is
not yet here. My guess is sometime in 2007.

[evilqueen]

43. #4 is a big problem

- The schools won't be able to afford bus service.
- Truckers won't be able to afford to keep driving (this impacts pretty much everything, especially the food supply, but also the gas supply).
- Postal Service
- Package Delivery Services
- Fuel Oil for Heat (this winter is projected to be one of the coldest).

Greyhound is closing down stops at around 1000 rural towns this year, too, and Amtrak and other alternatives don't exist in many of these areas.

[rayofreason]

46. Not everyone is pessimistic...

... this article shows

http://www.watchingamerica.com/lefigaro000043.html

The original is not on Le Figaro, except for pay.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/cgi/perm/archives/find?url=http://newportal.cedrom-sni.com/httpref/intro.asp&user=lefigaro&part_ID=lefigaro/

[windbreeze]

48. Has anyone else...

Thought about what's going on in the world, as a circling of the wagons?
Let me explain my thought...
N.Korea in Asia=problem
China relates to N.Korea
Taiwan/Asia=another problem child
China again involved
Venzuela in SA=problem?
China making deals...through Iran..with Venzuela
Russia
China/Russia holding joint military exercises=cooperation
Afghanistan/Iraq in the ME=mess of our making
Iraq/Iran cooperating with each other for defense
China/Russia involved
ME=destabalized because of our actions in Iraq
China/Russia/India cooperating in any way they can with each other...
Israel=problem?
China bought nuclear technology from Israel, after we sold it to them..

Anyone see a common denominator? On just about all continents, all around us, China is the one making inroads in their own best interests...Guam and Hawaii have been overtaken by Chinese and other oriental immigrants...and China has an economic stranglehold on us..we are the ones left holding the bag..economically, environmentally, politically...we have become increasing unpopular on the world stage, we have waged illegal wars, we have told environmentalists to go to hell..who cares, we have outsourced our jobs..what happens when the circle is complete? When there is nowhere left for us to turn? When we find ourselves isolated and cut off? We have allowed foreign interests to buy our farms, our businesses, the land our buildings stand on...Our banking system is owned by foreigners...

Of course there are a lot of problems I didn't list, (and ones I just plain missed)...like Canada/lumber tariffs(and now they've struck oil, that China is interested and has invested in) Mexico and illegal aliens, of all nationalities crossing in the US. Columbia/drug running, Castro/Cuba..just because..Darfur/genocide...Syria/Lebanon/Lybia/Pakistan..Terrorist camps in South America...Haiti/government...South Africa/Aids/Despots...Saudi Arabia where supposedly the "terrorists" came from that struck us on our own soil, yet we did nothing...took NO action, and the Saudi's have removed great amounts of financial support from our system...oh, and let's not forget OIL...or the "terrorists" we have created, who take action against us with every strike they make against any country who helped us, on every continent..and who are creating their own communities in almost every country in the world on the sneak...meanwhile our borders, our seaports, and our nuclear facilities go unprotected...

I'de say IF we're going to survive...we better get busy figuring out how to accomplish it..
windbreeze

[growlypants]

50. the nuking of Iran is next. mark my words

[zann725]

51. Thought it already had?

Sure feels like it. Or at best, a Farce...or a very 'dark' comedy. Both of which are really tough to do well.

[butterfly77]

52. yes I do

you didn't include high unemployment,at least where I live.

[butterfly77]

53. yes I do

you didn't include high unemployment,at least where I live.

[Independent_Liberal]

54. If anything is getting ready to implode...

...I think it's BushCo.

:)