So you want to make nice with the DLC?

[bee]

Bullshit.

All too often I find myself suffering through a post where a potentially knowledgeable DU’er is driveling some pro-DLC garbage… “we should embrace the DLC”, “but look, they say bad things about bush”, “hey.. theyre not that bad”…. And while I historically bite my tongue in the interest of peace within the party… I just cant take it anymore! Frankly, as a liberal democrat, the thought of allowing such a vile, despicable, neo-conservative, demon spawn organization to affiliate with MY democratic party makes my skin CRAWL. I find it absolutely sickening that any real democrat would spend one iota of time trying to convince anyone else in the party that the DLC will do anything other than feed our party to the political shredder and jam the scraps down our throats.

Lets face facts. The sole purpose of the DLC is to completely disempower progressives and liberals. Follow me? They are funded by Fortune 500 companies, corporate oil giants, military contractors, war profiteers, right-wing foundations, etc. and if unless your last name is “Inc.” or “Co.” you’d be sorely mistaken to think they give a damn about whats in YOUR best interest. This right-wing, neo-con, war-mongering, PNAC affiliated organization is nothing but a Trojan horse. And If they are allowed to continue to contaminate our party, they will systemically destroy it from the inside out. Period. DLC are NOT democrats. They are CORPORATISTS. They are CORPORATIVE. They literally defy / contradict the word “democratic” by definition. And the fact that they have the balls to call themselves “democrats” while pursuing an overtly right-wing neo-con agenda makes them the absolute WORST kind of politician. Straight from the bottom of the barrel. And just as Bush USES the Christian right to further his evil-hearted quest for perpetual war, so does the DLC USE democrats further the SAME goal. We need to wake up. The DLC is hanging us with our own rope! And any left thinking person who subscribes to their bullshit rhetoric will undoubtedly soon find themselves swinging from the political rafters.

You want to silence MY liberal voice? You want to align with the PNAC? You want to advocate a corporate controlled government? You want perpetual war? You want to desecrate / defile the very definition of democracy? You want to denounce MY progressive ideals? You want to follow a “Third Way”?… then by all means… GO! Go create your own damn party. Go on with your corporatist neo-con self. But dammit, STOP trying to drag me and the rest of the democrats down into to the DLC’s political pit of Democratic hell with you!!! Because I, for one, have NO desire to be in any way affiliated with any such twisted, manipulative, ill-intended organization. And if YOU do, then I sincerely hope that you plan to embrace a pathetic political faction of ineffective hypocrites, because after you “New Democrats” are finished alienating the majority of the Democratic Party, that‘s exactly what youre going to be left with. Despite what the DLC wants you to believe the FACT of the matter is that the LEFT has the power. We PROVED that will Paul Hackett. And we DO NOT have to take this shit! Without us, the Democratic party will implode. And if the DLC infested “Democratic” party no longer respects our ideals, then maybe we should take our power elsewhere. More thoughts on this shortly…

But for now, flame on DLC fans.

[ihaveaquestion]

1. My thoughts exactly! Thank You!

The DLC is all about preventing liberals from rocking the boat - the corporate profits boat! They've been trying to oust progressives from the Dem party for years, but they're the ones that need to be dumped!

Kick em out, kick em out, way out! :kick:

[bee]

2. Im glad someone agrees!

In the interest of self-preservation... we must get rid of them ASAP!

[me b zola]

22. I agree with you, too!

It is sinister, indeed. We are the most informed and politically active faction of the Democratic Party. Yet they (dlc) engage in using the same disparaging rhetoric against us as the neo-cons use to diminish us.

I find it all vile, but when they come here and specifically direct that vile at us, I find that even more troubling. I believe that they want us to leave the party; a coup d'etat that will leave them with the good name of the Democratic Party and the millions of voters who are fairly easily manipulated. Name recognition in politics is a big piece of the pie, and many voters would continue to vote D because of historical Democratic values, unaware of the coup.

I say they cannot have our party, nor the name of the Democratic Party. They must go.

[Dr Fate]

3. Paul Hackett is in line with the DLC on some issues.

Are we going to purge people who agree with the DLC on some issues-like Hackett, Clark, Gore, Kerry & Dean or just people who are known to be card-carrying members?

[Mairead]

4. All of them. What earthly good are corporatists to working people?

[Dr Fate]

6. How about Max Cleland?

???

[Mairead]

13. What about him? The fact that he lost 3 limbs was a tragedy for him

but it doesn't sanctify him, for pete's sake!

[Dr Fate]

16. What burns like witches? MORE WITCHES!!!

!!!!!


Who needs dead weight, pro-defense peeps like Cleland, on TV talking about Bush's tactical military blunders- he has zero credibility!! ;)

[Mairead]

20. How is that relevant? Are you saying he can't talk unless paid

by us?

[Dr Fate]

21. yeah- I'm saying Max & all of the "DLCers" are "on the take."

WE ARE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, PEOPLE!

He was "paid" to "fake his injuries" too- its all a slow, silent trap. There is nothing these DLCers wont do to undermine Democratic Underground.

Yup- he wont criticse Bush unless he is paid by us- You nailed it-that's what I said- and I aint taking it back!!! ;)

[Mairead]

23. Do you feel better now?

If so, and you can bear to answer my question, exactly what are you trying to imply with your question about Cleland speaking out against Bush? If you come right out and tell us, then I can avoid trying to read your mind and triggering another such fit. :)

[Dr Fate]

27. I'm implying that this "purge the DLC card-holders" idea sucks.

I dont have to agree with centrist, "DLC" democrats on everything,- but damn if I want to kick out everyone who is DLC, or conversely, everyone who saw a Mike Moore movie-Especially if they serve a useful function...


I guess you thought "on TV" meant getting paid- that is not what I meant- I menat he has credibility & media access.

[Mairead]

30. What's the useful function? And why is that enough? (nt)

[Dr Fate]

33. So now you want specifics? Great- that is my whole point.

Lets get specific and take this candidate by candidate, issue by issue- rather than "All anti-war lefties are destroying the party" or "its that DLC again!!!"

Specificaly, Max is respected by Liberals, moderates & swing-voters. He has credibility on defense issues- he has been very critical & vocal about how Bush has executed this war- he does well against the righties on those TV shows.

That's one centrist who I would not want to "kick out" of the party- in fact, I'd like him to run again, or be a cabinet member in '08.

[Mairead]

38. That's his unique added value--lip service?

It's not good enough. There are plenty people who can be 'very critical and vocal' without selling us down the river at the same time.

Face it: no matter what he said, he didn't do squat for us while in office. You cannot balance up his record and have it come out in our favor.

Chuck him overboard. Let him do his talk-show lip service as a pundit, not as our employee.

[Dr Fate]

40. And that "Elite Liberal" Micheal Moore needs to take a hike too.

Cuz he is all talk too, right?

MORE WITCHES!!! I NEED MORE WITCHES!!!

[Mairead]

46. Why?

And no, MM's not all talk--he's a pro-working-people filmmaker. I think he's also sickeningly self-promotional, but he's never gone against us on important issues.

[Dr Fate]

52. Except when he attacked Al Gore in 2000. See where this is going?

So Moore did go against us on important issues.- mainly the 2000 election. But I still like him anyway- people make mistakes.

You dont have a problem with Moore talking in front of cameras because you you claim to agree with everything he says- but since you only agree with some of what of what Max says, you suggest he is useless to the party.

I'm saying we need them BOTH- both types appeal to different voters.

I like Moore- a lot- but if Max Cleland is "all talk" for going on TV and taking on Bush, then we must characterize Moore the same way.

We are failing to look at this issue by by issue & individual by individual.

[bee]

35. So you suggest we embrace "democrats" with

a right-wing corporatist agenda? :banghead:
If thats the case, then why even HAVE a democratic party. Hell, we might as well all just become Rebulicans and get it over with. Personally, Id like my party to be war-monger FREE thank you and whether you see it or not, the DLC is going to reduce the DEM party in one way or another no matter what. Liberals and war-mongers in the same party is WRONG. And personally, I dont want to belong to a party that is willing to trade its leftists for corporatist war-mongers whos goal is to silence my voice. The need to segregate from the DLC is real for MANY of us dems... and if youre willing to watch your partys numbers dwindle due to the presence of corrupt political opportunists then so be it. But I, for one, am not.


note* SHOULD be reply to #27

[Dr Fate]

39. No, I did not say that. All my posts are still here, are they not?

In which post did I suggest supporting a right-wing corporatist agenda?

I said I would prefer to take this issue by issue, candidate by candidate.

I would not want to purge dudes like Cleland, Hackett, Dean, Clark or Kerry just becuase they are centrists or even agree with conservatives on some issues.

How does this elimation of centrist DEMs work? Are we talking all of congress- or just the presidential candidate? Do we infiltrate Mass. & conivince them to dump Kerry- and then replace him with a more savvy "real" Liberal?

How do we do this in Red States where they have popular DEM centrists-is the purge somthing we are going to get done by '06- or are we shooting for '08?

Should we distance ourselves from Clark & Cleland types and only associate with academia & hollywood stars?

I mean, if we are going to have a purge, lets get REAL specific- I wanna know so that the Dr. Fate's dont wind up getting kicked out too!

[Mairead]

41. "conivince them to dump Kerry"

Funny you should mention that. In point of fact, that's exactly what a lot of folk here in Mass are going to be working on in '08: dumping Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

43. Who is his replacement?

?

[Mairead]

47. We'll see. So far, my vote is for Dr Randy Forsberg

[emulatorloo]

51. good - cut off your head to spite your face

Maybe you;ll get super lucky and get Corsi.

http://www.adaction.org/lifetimesenmassachusetts.html

Kerry lifetime ADA average rating 92

[bee]

42. no... I feel like youre missing my point

I am in no way saying that "centrist" dems should be ejected from the party. This is not about centrist dems at all. All Im saying is that because the DLC is funded nearly 100% by right-wing neo-con corporations, that they, by nature, will work towards goals that benefit their supporters. How can an organization with a PNAC aligned agenda be allowed to affiliate with the dem party? Its contradictory!

[Dr Fate]

44. Are we doing this by '06 or are we shooting for '08?

And can we get some names here- which Democrats are we "targeting" for ejectment from the party?

Name their potential "Real DEM" replacements too, if you dont mind- if we are going to do this, lets get specific and have some plans.

[bee]

55. sigh~

As I said, ALL card carrying DLC "democrat" should be ejected. You want names? Look at their roster. They are corporate controlled neo-cons in dem disguise and thats that!
Im at a loss as to how else to put this to you.

And since you seem to think that the DLC will somehow serve your goals... PLEASE tell me when it was that GE's or Raytheons interests ever lined up with your own...

[LittleClarkie]

53. I've never understood how a democratic organization

is supposed to "purge" people.

Gads, surely there is another word we could use that doesn't have that Stalineque connotation.

I thank you, good Doctor, for your non-kneejerk point of view. I appreciate a person who hasn't drawn conclusions so carved in stone that new facts can't get in. I appreciate seeing people who still have their brains engaged and recognize that we live in a world that is shades of gray, not black and white.

I may work for someone in the primaries who is not DLC or has no connection to them, but dang, what do you do if a DLC type is the only person running in a district that often doesn't even field a Dem candidate.

(I live in freeperville. I see lots of uncontested races. Which, as my local party has pointed out, sucks because it means the Repubs don't have to spend money in your district. Even without a chance of winning, it's worth it to make the GOP spend money sometimes, you know? But I digress.)

What do you do then? Aren't there shades of DLC affiliation? Why are some candidates allowed to be more DLCish if they also have an attitude we like, like Hackett.

It's all mighty subjective from where I sit.

[bee]

15. exactly the point.

They do NOT fit with our party

Democratic; adj. Of or for the people in general
Corporative; adj. Of, relating to, or associated with a corporation

Take a look at what drives the DLC and tell me they care about "us".
They do NOT. Theyre trying to take our party away from us and re-define it to suit their own coporate agenda. That is NOT OK!

*edited for typo

[Mairead]

49. Bees will defend their hive against wasps. But if a wasp gets in

the bees give up defending, even though the wasp is wreaking havoc in the hive.

Somehow, there seems to be a parallel there.

[JAbuchan08]

5. It's not the issue positions which are the problem (for the most part)

it's the strategy of trying to RULE the Democratic party. They don't dialogue they dictate.

[Dr Fate]

12. I agree- our strategy in the past 3 elections was poor...

...its not whether we are "to the right" or "not left enough"- its about not being afraid to fight & take on the Repubs.

[JAbuchan08]

17. I think a lot of the Democratic grass-roots are "moderate"

the DLC doesn't smear the grassroots because they are leftist, they smear them because they are the grassroots and they threaten the kingmaking abilities of the DLC.

[Q]

7. This is the second time I've seen you call Gore a DLCer...

...and by now you certainly should know that's not true. Gore told the DLC to go to hell in 2000 and ran a POPULIST campaign (against the DLC's advice) that won him the election. To this day...the DLC insists that Gore 'lost'...not because of election fraud or illegal supreme Court decisions...but because he ignored their advice.

I disagree with the thread author on one point. The DLC isn't an official part of the Democratic party and thus can't simply be thrown. They are an independent 'think tank' that uses Democratic politicians like the Clinton's and Kerry to advance their own corporate, pro-war agenda.

The ONLY way we can remove their influence from our party is to pledge not to vote for ANY politician sponsored by them.

[Dr Fate]

9. Show me where I called ANYONE a "DLCer"

I said he agrees with them on some issues- just like Dean, Clark, Hackett, Kerry & Dr Fate do.

I'm not the one running around DU attaching labels to DEMs- I'm taking this issue by issue, candidate by candidate.

[Q]

14. That they may 'agree' with them on some issues doesn't make them...

...a DLCer. But you keep including Gore in your list of those who may be 'in line' with the DLC. While Kerry IS a DLCer...Gore is most certainly not. You know what you were implying...

Not to speak for the thread author...but it seems clear that he's at least in part talking about DLCers who are official members or candidates sponsored by them. Kerry was the last DLCer to run for president.

[Dr Fate]

18. Yes- I know what I was implying.

It was not supposed to be a secret or nuanced.

That really narrows it down then- only people who are specific, card carrying- DLC members are to be purged. Got it.

[flpoljunkie]

24. Kerry did not join DLC until 2000; they would disagree with his liberal

voting record on many issues--i.e., the egregious bankruptcy bill.

[LittleClarkie]

50. I wonder if he joined them so that he could use them

Would he have been thinking about 2004 at that point? Or was he trying to lign himself up with Gore for VP purposes, since Gore was much more DLC at that point near as I can tell.

He might have thought that their organization would help him in 2004, but like Gore, he seems to have thrown them off. Neither one strikes me as being terribly DLC anymore. Oh, I suppose from the fiscal responsibility aspect. And Kerry is probably closer to the DLC in his hawkishness, though he don't outright support Bush in the war. He appears to be more like Clark in that regard, as in wanting Bush to get it right before it's too late, before it really does turn into a quagmire (I don't think we're there either yet, but the q word is certainly in our headlights.

The fact that he joined in 2000 might explain why he was saddled with some DLC advisers. Could they have been working against him because they're more focused on getting Hillary in office, not him? Could they have set him up?

Don't mind me. I'm just one big question mark at this point.

Anybody gots some answers?

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. Gore & Dean knew better and got out.

If Kerry doesn't know better, after the way they first handed him a nomination, then destroyed his campaign, then he's a damned fool. I haven't heard anything that links Hackett with the DLC, and Clark's association would appear to be indirectly through the Clintons.

So if you're going to say someone's "in line with some issues" with the DLC, how about some examples?

You could say I'm "in line with some issues" with Pat Buchanan,(opposition to PNAC being one) but it doesn't mean I would belong in his political party.

[Dr Fate]

11. Dean's gun record and they are pro- middle class tax cuts, for starters.

I'm saying lets look at this candidate by candidate, issue by issue.

I dont agree with every "DLCer" and I dont agree with every "Micheal Moore peacenik" or whatever- does that mean I get to stay in this party or what?

[AntiCoup2K4]

54. Dean's gun record was more a common sense position for a rural governor...

...than it was anything to do with a DLC platform. There are a lot of differences between rural Vermont and downtown Manhattan. One gun policy doesn't neccessarily apply to both. I'm in favor of that one being left up to the states myself, and as everyone at DU knows, I ain't no DLC'er!

As far as middle class tax cuts, I'm certainly open to that discussion. Depends on where they come from. My solution would be to close all the loopholes used by the rich. Once they actually start PAYING their damned taxes, it will be that much less a burden on everyone else.

And we both know the DLC corporatists would never go for that ;)

[bee]

10. Being in-line with some of their issues...

Does not make someone a DLC'er. Thats not what Im saying. But just because the DLC drips out some actual "democratic" views that actual democrats are in-line with doesnt make them democrats. They NEED to do this in order to bait us in. The fact remains that this is a corporatist group with heavy right-wing /PNAC ties that needs to be publically exposed for what it is. And anyone who subscribes to the DLC "plan" (not just portions), anyone card-carrying member who is therefore controlled by their war-mongering funders, should be ejected from the Democratic party. Absolutely.

[TMA68]

19. My thoughts as well!

Outstanding post! :applause:

I can only hope that, in the upcoming Congressional primaries, the countless rank-and-file Dems who oppose both the war on Iraq and the virtual war on civil liberties take your words to heart and send the DLC's pro-war, pro-police state candidates back to the Republican Party where they belong!

Todd

[bee]

26. Thanks Todd!!

Let 'em sit around and talk about how "weak" we are while theyre picking themselves up of the political curb. As a party, we need to put our foot down. The DLC is WAY below our standards and does not share our values. And I intend to present Howard Dean with a request to disassociate us from the DLC - for all the reasons I outlined in my post. I hope to have the petition up and running by tomorrow, and I will post the link here on DU for everyone who agrees with me to sign. They are a disgrace to our party... and its time for them to GO!

[Pepperbelly]

25. I am sick to death of both sides flaming ...

Sick to death.

As a Democrat, I am about ready to send the DLC to the gop and the lefties to the Greens. At least both of them would be happy and stop their everliving fucking COMPLAINING about the other.

[bee]

28. This is not flaming...

this is party preservation. Its the DLC who launched an attack on the left and if we're not willing to defend ourselves, then I guess we deserve to have them take it over........
throwing up our hands will get us nowhere.. and thats EXACTLY what they want us to do.

[Pepperbelly]

32. see my post to WesDem. nt

[Pepperbelly]

34. and ...

I have seen so many DLC bashing threads here since I've been here that your statement is laughable. OTOH, I have seen many leftie bashing threads as well.

So since you two cannot get along, you're bickering is going to take the rest of us down with both of you. Well, fine then, it's your prerogative to act however you wish. But a pox of BOTH of your houses.

[Adelante]

29. Hear, hear, PB

A pox on both their houses.

Hey, then WE could own the Democratic Party - you, me and Dr Fate :D

[Pepperbelly]

31. my very point is this ...

what they (DLC & lefties) are doing right now is going to give it to the gops anyway so what the fuck. Night as well run their asses off and lose in peace rather than listening to constant fratricidal bickering.

:shrug:

[Adelante]

36. I'm surely tired of it

from both sides.

[Q]

37. Sure enough...let's blame it on the 'lefties'...

...and who and the hell ARE the lefties anyway? That's right...they're simply average Democrats who don't want their party taken over by corporate interests.

I would BET that there are a lot of Republicans kicking themselves in the ass...wishing they had seen the Neocons coming so they could have done something about it before they took over their party.

Democrats still have a chance to tell the 'NeoDems' that...although they're welcome in the party... they CAN'T HAVE CONTROL OF IT OR SET THE AGENDA.

[Pepperbelly]

45. and the DLCers ...

a pox on both sides. I am just very sick of the bickering. And it's going to drag us down yet gain. And then it will get worse.

Screw both of them. The factionalization is stupid, counterproductive and embarassing.

[AtomicKitten]

48. Bravo

This obsession with the DLC is becoming absurd. And the suggestion of ousting people from the party for their ideology is just plain stupid. I am fully supportive of the big tent theory. If we all thought alike, well, we'd be Republicans. Free your mind and your ass will follow.

[Moderator]

56. Locking

While discussion of the DLC and it's public figures is allowed, attacks on fellow DUers who may not agree with the anti-DLC sentiments are not.

Thank you.