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YES EXTRADITE THE PRICK pat robertson Take him now

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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:02 PM
Original message
YES EXTRADITE THE PRICK pat robertson Take him now
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 06:04 PM by greenbriar
CBS/AP) President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that his government may ask the United States to extradite U.S. religious broadcaster Pat Robertson to Venezuela for suggesting American agents should kill him.

Earlier Sunday, Rev. Jesse Jackson offered support for Chavez, saying the televangelist's call for the Venezuelan leader's assassination was a criminal act

Calling for the assassination of a head of state is a terrorist act," said Chavez, an outspoken critic of President Bush who has forged strong relations with communist-led Cuba.

"We could even request his extradition," he added.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/28/world/main798...
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like a bad precedent.
What if someone in the US merely criticizes the Chinese Govt., and the Chinese govt. wants him extradited.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. bla
someone doesnt' dominate the airways

he did

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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. He didn't criticize--he called for an assassination.
There's a huge difference. He's also someone with a lot of followers who take his words quite seriously.

It was quite iffy under our laws, and if it's against theirs, we shouldn't fight his extradition. Our nation has a horrible history in that area, and we need to clean it up.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I know that. My point is that other countries have different
free speech laws than the US, and we shouldn't drop to that level via extradition.

To prove I'm not sympathetic to Pat Robertson, check this out:

http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_essay_2005_08_26_pat_robertson_david_brock_jon_stewart_and_more.asp
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. OK then, we'll just extradite this one time......
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 06:24 PM by hwmnbn
and we promise never to do it again!!!

edit for clarity
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. lol
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Chimpy kidnaps people from all over the world
so what is the difference?
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm all for it. n/t
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Me, too! They can have the creep!
Peace.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sorry, but this is silly
Americans have the right to advocate whatever crazy ideas they want. He didn't say "I am going to kill the President" or even "I want to kill the President". Pat Robertson is an evil man and an idiot, but he's got every right to make an ass of himself as often as he likes. Often when I see George Bush speak in public I say "I wish someone would punch him in the face", and I will continue to say it, hopefully without threat of prosecution.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. exactly right
The willingness of some DUers to treat the FIrst Amendment with the same lack of respect that is shown it by freepers is rather dismaying. Robertson's an amoral jackass. But there is no basis for charging him with a violation of US law and it would be a terrible idea to let a foreign country charge him with a speech-related offense. Show me that he hired an assassin and paid him money to "take out" Chavez and I'll change my tune. But if all we're talking about is the twisted opinions of a lunatic old man, then the best recourse is to pressure the stations and sponsors that support him to give him the boot.

onenote
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Actually...
It could be argued that since he is an influential person who has a following, and said what he said on TV that he was inciting his followers to assassinate him. He was certainly giving the okay to do so, the green light if you will, and I am sure a good lawyer could easily paint a picture that makes Robertson guilty.

What's that old analogy? Just because you have freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to run into a crowded theater and shout "fire?" Well, there are obvious limits to freedom of speech. There are some things you shouldn't say and trying to insight violence would be one of those things, I would think.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I realize we all find Robertson abhorrent
but he wasn't calling on his followers to kill Chavez, he was stating his whacked opinion that the United States government should assassinate him rather than "starting a war". No reasonable person would conclude that he wasn't a fool, but no reasonable person could include that he was "inciting a riot". People have the right to say stupid things in this country. Sorry.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. But the irony is, according to the Patriot Act, he did commit a crime....
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 07:52 PM by mikelewis
A crime of terrorism is clearly defined in the Patriot act.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RS21441.pdf
-snip-
...in order to conduct an investigation to protect against international terrorism, i.e.:
dangerous or violent crimes apparently intended to coerce a civilian population; influence government policy by coercion; or affect government conduct by kidnapping or assassination; and that are committed overseas or are international in nature or effect;...

Now, our Freedom of Speech should protect him but the Patriot Act defines him as a terrorist. So, not only has he broken Venezuelan Law, he's broken our law as well. I say we prosecute him right here. So isn't it ironic that the very law he loves, condemns him. Sort of beautiful, isn't it?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Pat Robertson didn't engage in assasination. He said the US govt should.
nt
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Not exactly
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 08:13 PM by DefenseLawyer
The Patriot Act wouldn't make what he said a crime, but it might make what he said grounds for an intelligence investigation of him. But having such a stupid opinion is still not a crime. If you read the language in your own link it goes on to says:
"in order to conduct an investigation to protect against clandestine intelligence activities;
- as long as any investigation of an American is not based solely on the American's exercise of his or her 1st Amendment rights"
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
24.  BRANDENBURG v. OHIO does not apply in this case
In the 1969 case, BRANDENBURG v. OHIO, the KKK leaders convictions were overturned because "Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." This may have applied before 9/11 but according to the new definitions, it does not. The new definition of an act of terrorism is:
Title 6 : Section 101 as:
"(15) The term ''terrorism'' means any activity that -
(A) involves an act that -
(i) is dangerous to human life or potentially destructive
of critical infrastructure or key resources; and
(ii) is a violation of the criminal laws of the United
States or of any State or other subdivision of the United
States; and
(B) appears to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/6/chapters/1/sections/section%5F101.html

There is no distinction in this definition on what First Amendment protections violators enjoy. Does the BRANDENBURG v. OHIO ruling protect Robertson? Or should we be looking to the Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire ruling where it states:
"Allowing the broadest scope to the language and purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, it is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. 2 There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention <315 U.S. 568, 572> and punishment of which has never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. 3 These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or 'fighting' words-those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. 4 It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality. 5 'Resort to epithets or personal abuse is not in any proper sense communication of information or opinion safeguarded by the Constitution, and its punishment as a criminal act would raise no question under that instrument.' Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 309 , 310 S., 60 S.Ct. 900, 906, 128 A.L.R. 1352."

But both of these cases are irrelevant in regards to Roberts call for Assassination of Chavez as he has clearly broken the law:
Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 875(c)
"Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=875

Not only does the Patriot Act define him as a terrrorist, U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 2331 has no such provision for the first amendment. In fact it is clearly defined in several different places and offers no definition of First Amendment protection.
"(1) the term ''international terrorism'' means activities that
-
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of
the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;


Pat Robertson should be charged with violating Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 875(c). I think bringing him up on terrorism charges may be a bit harsh but well within the legal framework and so far to my knowledge, there are no cases which define those protections offered by the First and Fourteenth Amendments.
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Uhhh,yeah but if you or me would have spouted the same about Chimp...
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 07:20 PM by OneTwentyoNine
Your ass or my ass would still be setting in a jail cell.

Hell if I was Chavez I wouldn't waste my time with that crap,I'd merely cut off the US from ALL Oil exports from his country.

Lets see,thats slightly less per month that what we get from SA and comes to about 39 MILLION barrels per month. When gas shoots up to $6.00 per gallon then see how much Murikans embrace Robertson or Bush for that matter since their pees in pod.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No we wouldn't
It is a crime to threaten the President. It may be a crime to say "I am going try to kill the president", but it is not a crime to say "I think somebody should kill the president", or even "I think the country would be better off if there was a coup and the Army killed george Bush" That is an extreme, and most would say foolhardy opinion, but it's an opinion, not a threat, and not a crime.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. There is no difference under the Patriot act, it's terrorism by thier...
own definition.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. You are confusing probable cause
to investigate, obtain search warrants, subpoena records, etc., with indicting and convicting for a crime.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. Magically delicious!
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let's trade him Robertson and that Cuban terrorist for Oil! n/t
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. okay
by me


they can have bushy too
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
25. As of a Friend of Der Fuhrer would EVER face justice!
Ask Rush Limbaugh: being a Friend of Der Fihrer means you can get away with any felony your little heart desires.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
26. The whole story is hilarious!
quote from Chavez - "We could offer him free psychiatric treatment ... but he could be a lost case" Chavez said sarcastically of Robertson and controversial statements the conservative commentator has made in the past.
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