Dean volunteered for OCS active duty, volunteer physical failed

[mouse7]

Dean tried to volunteer for active duty and Officers Candidate School. It was at that time that Dean failed his physical.

Dean never "dodged" a draft or even faced a draft. Dean still had more than a year of his student deferment remaining when when he attempted to volunteer for Officers Candidate School.

This was when Dean failed his military physical. Dean flunked the volunteer entrance physical.

Here's a link to all the real story that was actually present in the now-famous New York Times story... buried at the bottom.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=20702

http://college3.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2003/11/22/1126070.xml

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Trust this story not to be

raelly covered... trust the media to accuse Dean of
shirking his duty, and AWOL BUSH to be presented
as the great Warrior

[TexasSissy]

2. Please. Give it up. The country knows he sought deferment.

Take your knocks and move on. Do you know how costly & difficult it is to get actual copies of x-rays? A guy doesn't go to that trouble and walk into a physical for enlistment, hoping to get an enlistment. It's obvious he was seeking deferment. AND HE HAS ADMITTED IT. Move on. It's not the end of the world. Clinton didn't serve, either. It was Vietnam.

[mouse7]

3. Didn't happen and the proof was in the NY Times.

Dean SOUGHT to volunteer for active duty and Officers Candidate School. Read the article. It's all there. Dean failed the physical when he attepted to sign up for active duty as an officer.

Everything else is neo-con spin.

[SahaleArm]

4. Dean on Hardball: Were you hoping to be deferred? Yes

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3607157/

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-let me ask you about your own almost experience with the military back in 1970. Describe, if you can, just lay it out, what it was like-how you got your deferment and how it worked. Tell me what happened that day.

DEAN: I was a-I think I was a junior when the lottery came out.

My number was 143, which was a pretty low number. I figured I was going to get drafted. I knew I had a back problem. I had it for four years because I had back pain during my track career in high school. So I went down to have a draft physical in 1970. I think it was February. I went through the draft physical, which is like a scene from Alice’s Restaurant, and-for those of you who haven’t seen Alice’s Restaurant, and the-the army-they basically said we will not take you except in times of national emergency. So I failed my draft physical.

MATTHEWS: You make it sound rather passive.

Now, you have read “The New York Times.” You know how they described it-quote-”In the winter of 1970, a 21-year-old student from Yale walked into his armed services physical in New York carrying X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist, eager to know whether a back condition might keep him out of the military draft.”

Is that accurate? Did you carry materials into argue your case against being...

DEAN: Yes. No, I brought my-I didn’t argue any case.

MATTHEWS: Then why did you bring materials to a draft physical?

DEAN: Because I knew I had a back problem and I knew they would want to know about it. And they did know about it. And...

MATTHEWS: Did you do it with the idea this would help you get out of the draft or just, you thought it would be informative?

DEAN: No, I was not...

DEAN: I was not

MATTHEWS: But, seriously, because you’ve been pretty honest about your attitude towards the Vietnam War.

DEAN: Yes. No, I was not looking forward to going to Vietnam.

There’s no question about that.

MATTHEWS: Would an average poor kid growing up in a different part of New York City, say, from Harlem, say, who didn’t have an orthopedist, didn’t have X-rays, didn’t have a letter from his doctor, he would have been drafted, wouldn’t he?

DEAN: Not necessarily.

MATTHEWS: A Howard Dean that didn’t have those materials, walk in, would have been drafted, right?

DEAN: That’s the case that “The New York Times” tried to make. But, unfortunately, it’s not accurate.

If you develop back pain, the Army is going to want to know about it. And they’re going to want to find out why you have back pain. I had a condition that the Army decided did not qualify me for service.

MATTHEWS: How did you know that?

DEAN: Because I had back pain. And I had had it for four years. It prevented me from doing some things. And I went to an orthopedist, who took an X-ray. Now, even a poor kid would have an opportunity to go to a doctor.

MATTHEWS: Beforehand?

DEAN: Beforehand, and say: What’s the matter with my back? I can’t do X-in my case, run track anymore.

And so-now, what I’m not doing, Chris, is making the case that the draft was fair. It was not.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

DEAN: And it did discriminate against kids who did not have the means...

MATTHEWS: Did you feel good about having this advantage? You had more information about your health situation. You obviously had enough basic money to pay for health costs-I mean information that you got to take in with you. Did you feel anything about the tens of thousands of people getting killed every year who didn’t have those advantages?

DEAN: I thought the war was wrong.

MATTHEWS: What about the people who went to war to fight instead of you?

DEAN: I thought it was really important not to disrespect them. I think one of the things we have learned about the Iraq war is, support our troops, even though we may disagree with the fact that they’re over there.

MATTHEWS: But did it bother you that some kid from the wrong part of town was taking your place? Because it bothered me.

DEAN: I never felt that way about it. I felt that, if they took me, they took me, and, if they didn’t, they didn’t. I never felt like somebody else was going to take my place.

MATTHEWS: You never felt, there, but for fortune, go you or me?

DEAN: No, because they wouldn’t take me. It wasn’t like I was trying to dodge the draft. All I did was say, hey, look, here is my information. Do with me what you will. And they did.

MATTHEWS: Do you think, if you hadn’t brought that information in with you, they would have grabbed you and nailed you?

DEAN: You know, that’s really interesting. That’s what “The New York Times” asked me. And-but they didn’t put it in the article.

MATTHEWS: Let me you it as a question. Do you think they would have drafted if you hadn’t brought that material with you?

DEAN: If I had concealed my condition and lied to them about my back pain?

MATTHEWS: Just didn’t bring it in.

DEAN: No, I think they would have asked me, do you have any problems with your back or anything else? And I would have said, yes, I got a problem with my back.

MATTHEWS: When you went in to the draft board that day, were you hoping to get deferred?

DEAN: I was not looking forward to going to Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: Were you hoping to be deferred?

DEAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much.

[incapsulated]

5. Like pulling teeth

Not pleasant.

For the record, I couldn't care less. I don't know about Joe and Jane American voter, though.

[SahaleArm]

7. Not too many people wanted to go to Vietnam...

Dean got a 1-Y deferment, end of story.

[mouse7]

11. Dean was rated 1-Y after the fact.

Read the article. The 1-Y rating happened weeks after Dean failed the physical for volunteering for active duty.

[SahaleArm]

13. He went from a 2-S before the physical and 1-Y after n/t

[mouse7]

16. 2-S is the student deferment - 1-Y is the change in status weeks later

The NYT article clearly says he recieved a letter weeks later that told him his about 1-Y. That's because it was done by clerks in another bureaucracy after they recieved the result of dean failing the physical at the entrance station. That's confirmed with this quote...

"The back condition that apparently led to Dr. Dean's deferment had been discovered years before his armed services physical."

Dean took an "armed services physical"

Dean never deal with any draft board/selective servive physicians.

[SahaleArm]

17. Is there any difference? Either way he got a new draft classification...

If you read my post below you'll understand the timeline. He definitely was in the selective service system, as is everyone who signs up; it's required by law.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=21024#21074

[mouse7]

20. Dean very well could have been off tob active duty training

First paragraph...

"...walked into his armed services physical in New York carrying X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist, eager to know whether a back condition might keep him out of the military...."

Dean did not know whether he would pass or fail his physical. So Dean would have headed off right then to training if he had passed. Dean volunteered. There is no forknowledge on Dean's part that he will be getting flunked on his physical. The article shows later Dean choose Officers Candidate School. The only way you can choose an officers candidate school program is if you would be headed off to active duty by volunteering.

Therefore, Dean is not seeking to get out of military service. Dean had to volunteer for active duty to get a choice of Officers Candidate School. They don't make those offer to draftees. Dean wasn't dodging military service. He was seeking it. He may not have beeen terribly happy about the whole idea, but the decision had to have been made by Dean to move ahead with volunteering for active duty in order to ahve the choice of OCS.

[SahaleArm]

23. No - He still had one year of student deferment left (2-S).

That would not have changed regardless of the outcome of the physical. Dean would not want to enlist one year early, as he stated on Hardball he wanted to get deferred. Dean's draft timeline is like Pulp-Fiction.

[mouse7]

24. Wrong. Covered. That letter...

"A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y. Under that classification, he was qualified for military service only in case of extreme national emergency, meaning that he effectively moved to the very back of the line."

The student deferment status was CHANGED to 1 - Y status after dean attempted to volunteer and failed the entrance exam.

This further prove that I'm right.

The article says that dean got the physical when he syill had 1 year left on his student deferment. This shows that Dean had decided to enter the service. If he was trying to get out of military duty, it makes no sense to take the physical early.

Dean took the physical early because he had resigned himself to volunteering for active duty and Officers Candidate School to be the best option to choose. He doesn't have to be happy about the choice to decide that doing it is the wisest thing to do.

Did you take any mathmatics during college? Did you want to?

[SahaleArm]

25. If you don't believe your own candidate - I can't help you...

This is you trying to create something out of nothing, editorializing to suit a theory you seem to be stuck on:

The student deferment status was CHANGED to 1 - Y status after dean attempted to volunteer and failed the entrance exam.

From the Article:

In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done. He said he had never considered the National Guard.

So, he came to his physical armed with X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist.

...

The future governor followed everyone through the various stages of the physical, eventually handing his packet to a military orthopedist.

A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y. Under that classification, he was qualified for military service only in case of extreme national emergency, meaning that he effectively moved to the very back of the line.

Where does it explicitly state Dean volunteered for the military or that he enlisted?

[TLM]

35. Where does it explicitly state Dean volunteered for the military ...

Don't you have to do that before getting the induction physical?

[SahaleArm]

40. Where did it say he was inducted?

Clarification does not require induction. Dean did not volunteer for anything - he still had a year of student deferment left. This was his chance to get the h*ll out of the draft a year early.

[mouse7]

60. Dean was volunteering for Officers Candidate School

It says specifically that Dean was choosing to go into Officers Candidate School. Going into Officers Candidate School is done on active duty and has several years service requirement attached to participation.

[SahaleArm]

61. No he didn't - No matter how many times you stomp your feet n/t

[mouse7]

64. Hey... I respond with evidence and quotes, you respond with that

I'm sorry you don't personally like or believe what the evidence proves really happened. Your religious beliefs aren't my concern.

[dsc]

50. My dad enlisted one year early (actually it was two I think)

and he did so for several reasons. One, he would have been drafted anyway. Two, by enlisting early he would have his service over before getting married or going to school. Three, by enlisting early he got his choice of both the service he want into and the postion with in that service. Four, he could serve one less year by enlisting. Even though my dad was in the Korean era and not the VietNam one most of that applied to Dean. Only the timing one didn't as Dean had started school. It appears that Dean felt one and three were compelling for him.

[SahaleArm]

52. No - Option three only if he couldn't get a medical deferment...

Option three was Officer Candidate School which is far different than normal enlistment; and he surely didn't want that. Of course once the 1-Y came through that whole avenue of thinking was irrelevent. Either way it was only a thought and he did not volunteer for military service, which makes the premise of this thread dishonest.

[dsc]

53. That would be the whole point

of trying to volunteer. To get a different assignment from that which he would have gotten had he been drafted. To what extent he figured he would get the deferment would be hard to determine. He wasn't a doctor then, he hadn't even taken any pre med courses then. His parents weren't doctors and from the accounts of the era that I have read medical deferemnts were crap shoots. I won't say he didn't want a deferment but I will say he surely hadn't been guarenteed one either.

[SahaleArm]

55. I don't blame Dean for deferment - just the dishonesty of the thread n/t

[mouse7]

62. Nothing but facts in this thread...you just don't like the facts.

Dean did not know he was going to flunk the physical when he decided to volunteer for Officers Candidate School rather than wait for the crap shoot of the draft lottery. Dean was more comfortable with volunteering and entering OCS than waiting and getting assigned whatever the military assigned him to do if he was drafted.

Dean entered his physical knowing that active duty and OCS was very possible aas an end result of the process, and he went ahead with the process rather than wait to see what happened in the draft.

Dean was clearly less concerned with avoiding the military than he was not getting to have some choice over what he did in the military. He wasn't thrilled about entering, but he was willing to enter if he had some ability to control what he was going to do in the military when he entered.

[TexasSissy]

29. As Dean stated, .....

"MATTHEWS: When you went in to the draft board that day, were you hoping to get deferred?

DEAN: I was not looking forward to going to Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: Were you hoping to be deferred?

DEAN: Yes. "

I'm sure his doctor who gave him the x-rays and records (I'm gonna guess there was also a written doctor's report in them there records) told him he had a good chance of being kept out of the military. That, plus Dean's statements that he let them know the activities, such as track, he could no longer participate in. Dean's number was low, as he stated; he knew he would be drafted soon, if he didn't head on down there with his records.

The "other" story won't fool veterans and the relatives of those who didn't get out of the military during Vietnam. But if Dean wins the nomination, it shouldn't cost him against AWOL Bush.

Look, I remember Vietnam and knew guys who were drafted. It was common for the guys to want to get out of the draft. It was a very unpopular war. We all would have known what it meant for a guy to go down for the physical with medical records & x-rays under his arm. And we wouldn't have thought twice about it, under the circumstances. Although we would have admired someone who hadn't done that, we wouldn't have blamed anyone who had done that.

[SahaleArm]

54. *deleted*

[retyred]

36. So was he lying when he "said" he was seeking a deferment?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[mouse7]

8. Doesn't matter. Your whole post moot now.

Dean VOLUNTEERED for military service. Active duty, Officers Candidate School.

The draft discussion is moot. Dean was never eligible for the draft while he was in college. Student deferment. Dean volunteed for active duty military service. Dean signed the papers, was ready to go to training, and the military refused his entry into the service. He flunked the physical.

From the moment the military doctor signed the paperwork was exempt from military service. Couldn't be drafted.

Howard Dean was NEVER IN THE SELECTIVE SERVICE SYSTEM. Never. you don't volunteer for military with selective service. Recruiters bring you straight to the entrance station for you exam. You never see Selective Service draft board doctors.

[SahaleArm]

10. Now you're disagreeing with what Dean said? n/t

[mouse7]

14. Nope, just disagreeing with NY Times layout of story

The New York Times cut and pasted the story around so that is was hard to determine the actual order events happened in. You have to read it a couple of time before you realize that the only way it happened was by Dean volunteering to go active duty OCS.

For example, stickn into the morass at the bottom is Dean saying, "If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done. He said he had never considered the National Guard.

Becaue of this statement... none of this could possibly relate to anything in selective service. NOBODY getting drafted EVER got the option of considering the National Guard. Nobody getting drafted got to "try" dirt. draftees don't even select what branch of service.

[SahaleArm]

15. Here's my best guess...

In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

He did this a year before his student deferment expired. If he didn't get a 1-Y he had a year before the draft and probably the option of trying for Officer Candidate School. The 1-Y made this all moot.

[TexasSissy]

30. Silly Wabbit...student deferments were eventually dropped for Vietnam.

Dean said it himself in the interview. He got his selective service number. The number was low, meaning that he would probably be drafted. Are you saying that Dean was lying in the interview? Do tell! Does he do that often?

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. now that is just not fair at all

you can't go around posting dean's actual words to refute the dean supporters spin!!!

[SahaleArm]

6. Dean thought about Officer Candidate School if he did not get deferred...

From the NYTimes Article:

In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done. He said he had never considered the National Guard.

So, he came to his physical armed with X-rays and a letter from his orthopedist.

[mouse7]

9. That's when he volunteered

That quote has noting to do with deferments. If you get drafted, you don't get to pick crap. They pick for you.

The only way you get to make any choices is if you...volunteer for active duty.

Game. Set. match.

[SahaleArm]

12. He did not volunteer - He did not have to upon receiving a medical...

deferment (1-Y).

[mouse7]

18. The change in selective service status came afterward.

"A few weeks later, a letter arrived informing him that his draft classification had been changed from 2-S, the student deferment, to 1-Y."

Dean failed a physical and then weeks later got a letter connunicating his selective service status. The only way that could happen is if Dean volunteered, took his entry physical, failed it, and then his selective service status was changed long after the fact when the files from the physical got sent afterwards to selective service.

[SahaleArm]

19. No read the timeline post above...

In early 1970, more than a year before Dr. Dean's student deferment was due to lapse, he decided to see where he stood.

He did not have to sign-up for anything to get a physical for draft status clarification.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=21024#21074

[chimpymustgo]

33. Dean SOUGHT to volunteer? Did he volunteer or not?

Whaa??

[trogdor]

21. Dude, if you fail to disclose potential problems...

...you are guilty of fraud. I used to work at an Army reception station, and we'd have these cases all the time where people would try to conceal all kinds of shit, from flat feet to epilepsy (no shit). They all get sent home, and there's a reason code that gets put in your records.

[mouse7]

22. The UCMJ is strict about lying about entrance information

The combination of being in the military and and lying in the entrance process is not too cool. Lots money outta your pay for quite a while at the very least.

[MercutioATC]

27. "costly and difficult to get actual copies of x-rays"??? I have MRI shots

of my knee and upper G.I. x-ray shots of my...well...upper G.I. tract. Cost to me? Zero. I just asked the hospital for my x-ray file.

[TexasSissy]

32. Someone paid for them, and they aren't cheap.

I got copies of a packet of X-rays once years ago. Cost - about $1,000. I got fewer and smaller copies years later - cost was several hundred dollars.

In neither instance would they mail them. Pickup required.

That's a lot of trouble and cost for a student, as Dean was. Oh, I forgot. He was rich. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) I guess I should've said....that's a lot of trouble and cost for the average student who is working and going to school.

[MercutioATC]

57. Actually, my insurance (which I'd assume Dean had, too) paid for it...

...the first time. When I needed the films to take to a specialist, I just asked for them. They were pretty adamant about wanting them back, but my specialist still has them.

My point is that SOME facilities may try to clip you for the films but after the initial cost of making them, there's no reason there'd be any additional costs. They don't make "copies", they give you the originals that have already been paid for (at least in my case).

[bitchkitty]

26. Ah, thanks for starting this thread.

I love it when someone brings this up, because I get to point out two things:

1. Bush went AWOL (and lied about it afterward)
2. Dean got a legal deferrment for a legitimate condition and told the truth about it.

I'm on 56K and that link is sloooooooooow!

[MercutioATC]

28. The bottom line: Dean told the truth and was deferred.

Could he have been drafted had he lied? Probably. The fact is that he told the truth and was deferred. What is the issue here? Medical deferrments exist for a reason. If Dean had lied and had problems in Vietnam, resulting in the deaths of other soldiers, would THAT have been better? The military determines what conditions would place other soldiers in danger and grants deferrments based on that (and for other reasons). Dean was honest about his back condition. There's really nothing more to this.

[slinkerwink]

31. and it's stupid to say Dean should've lied so he could've gone to vietnam

[Scott Lee]

37. But a really humorous length his opponents will go to, you have to admit!

I must say this represents a new low in the "he's a draft dodger" fairy tale argument.

Swear to the Gods, this gets funnier by the day.

[SahaleArm]

41. Or the humorous lengths Dean supporters will go to convince...

everyone he volunteered for the US military. What do you think this pointless thread was about? Talk about having an unhealthy imagination...

[MercutioATC]

58. Nobody said he "volunteered". Hell, he was at a draft physical...

...as far as I know, they don't draft people who volunteer. He said that he would have gone if he was drafted. That's a lot different than volunteering.

[SahaleArm]

59. You should complain to the person who started this thread

Not me - Just read through the post and reponse above.

[MercutioATC]

63. I HAVE read the posts. It's not reasonable, however, to group all

Dean supporters into the same group. The original poster was wrong...no doubt about it. To extend that, however into a statement that "Dean supporters" go to humerous lengths to defend him is insulting. SOME Dean supporters very well may, but anybody who's been on this board longer that a week knows that most of us are very well-versed on this issue. To suggest otherwise is just as much "spin" as the original post.

[mouse7]

66. Actually, you didn't read the article.

The reporters from the NY Times were clear that Dean had more than a year before his student deferment expired. Dean never faced the national draft lottery. He volunteered more than a year before his student deferment expired.

It was not a draft board physical. It was a military entrance physical. The medical draft deferment was mailed to Dean weeks after Dean took the military entrance physical to volunteer for OCS that he ended up failing.

[mouse7]

65. No, he wasn't at a draft physical. Read the article.

He still had more than a year remaining before his student deferment expired and could have faced the possibility of a draft when he volunteered for OCS. He was more comfortable volunteering for OCS than waiting for the crapshoot of the draft lottery, evidentally.

[DancingBear]

34. mouse7 - were you of draft age in Vietnam?

I was. Ask anyone of that era and they will tell you without reservation why Dean carried x-rays into the physical - he didn't want to go. Period. What - did you think he was so proud of his lumbar vertebrae that he wanted to bring pictures and show off? :)

Nothing wrong with not wanting to go - hell, I didn't want to go, either. But don't try to paint a different picture.

Also, he'll be painted as a draft dodger with relative ease by * - cue the skiiing trip commercial, on one...

It'll work, too. Especially when they tie it into his lack of foreign policy experience.

That'll work, too.

Just trying to get you prepared for what's coming, should he be the nominee.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

39. I've alerted the mods

What an absolutely horrible thing to say. You should be utterly
ashamed of yourself.

[neverforget]

43. This whole thread is flame bait.....

[RetroLounge]

46. Truth hurts...

eom

[SahaleArm]

47. Unless it's phony like Dean volunteering for the miltary n/t

[SahaleArm]

42. Or some Dean supporters are willing to come up with any...

excuse to claim Dean tryed to serve. He didn't want to serve, received a medical deferment, and admitted as much on Hardball. End of story.

[chimpymustgo]

44. This thread should be locked because the subect line is not true.

Dean didn't volunteer for jack.

[mouse7]

67. The NY Times article says different.

n/t.

[NashVegas]

45. 10:1 This Thread is Gonna Be Locked Anyway

Just like your previous one, Mouse.

"Thought about OCS" is not the same thing as "volunteered."

Capiche?

Stop it.

Dean was rejected due to back problems. There's no need to go making up shit.

[fob]

51. Semantics can save the thread

I read every post and if mouse7 simply changed "volunteered" to "vountarily" he/she wins.

I don't know the precise order of when someone is deemed to have "volunteered" but it seems to me that you don't have to be on a bus to fort sills oklahoma to be considered a volunteer. Dean was labled 2-S and VOLUNTARILY went down to get his physical to see if he qualified, he did NOT wait to be DRAFTED. It seems clear that had he passed his physical, he would have chosen OCS and at aome point been on his way to training, the actual status of his signature on any documents at the time of the physical NOTWITHSTANDING. At the very least he demonstrated at least 5 levels of patriotism beyond AWOL* himself and 8-10 levels beyond many of the current chickenhawks-in-disgrace that send our fellow citizens off to die.

fob

[mouse7]

68. Thanks :) I'll accept that criticism.

I actually was playing around with the words trying to get them right before I typed all that in.

I'll switch and use "voluntarily" from now on.

[mouse7]

69. It is when one follows up thought with action

Dean thought about going into OCS, and followed up that though with the action of going to an entrance station to take the qualifying physical.

That means that the military was processing Dean into the military. The military doesn't give physicals to people who are just checking into their options. There are only two ways that one gets the military entrance physical. The facts that Dean had over a year left on his student deferment and that Dean was choosing OCS mean that Dean voluntarily went down to take his entrance physical. That means Dean was not avoiding military service.

[mot78]

49. Can someone save this?

We'll need this as ammo against the Repugs.

[chimpymustgo]

56. Best to use it now. Let's nominate the best person, okay?

Someone that doesn't require the spinning and tortured reasoning to "plug the holes".