dean claimed his brother was in the armed service?...cspan

[bearfartinthewoods]

i didn't catch the name of the paper but the article was about the outrage surrounding dean's claim that his brother was a POW/MIA in response to a question "who is the closest member of your family to serve in the armed forces.

details, anyone?

[ibegurpard]

1. What's wrong with YOUR fingers?

Edited to provide link:

www.google.com

[bitchkitty]

48. C'mon, be fair -

why waste the chance to start another anti-Dean thread?

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. oh yes...i should just google the story and hush up about it eh?

mustn't talk about dean unless you only offer praise.

[ibegurpard]

66. Of course not

You would disappoint us otherwise

[dsc]

72. No you should google the story and post it here

instead of asking others to do your homework.

[bearfartinthewoods]

103. self edited

..........

[bitchkitty]

166. Not what I said, and you know it.

The purpose was not to get this information before people. If it were you would have used Google. Instead you had an opportunity to post yet another Dean-bashing thread, and you took that opportunity.

[IndianaGreen]

173. Dean's brother was never in the military, and Dean never claimed that

There has been some talk about Dean's brother having gone to Laos in part to gather information for CIA. This doesn't mean that he was on the CIA payroll. Many Americans from elite Eastern schools were used by CIA to collect information about parts of the world they were traveling to. A friend of mine that served in the Peace Corps was asked his impressions about what was going on in India.

[arewethereyet]

176. so why did he answer with this obvious un-truth ?

I mean I can't understand it, its useless and foolish. But then again Dr Dean has been doing stuff like this a lot.

[windansea]

149. links to quad cities article

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022060&t=Opinion&c=22,1022060

and NY Times article
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/politics/campaigns/23DEAN.html?ex=1072846800&en=069b2492c69761ac&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[OrAnarch]

2. It is likely from what I have read...

Not a whole lot of a reason to otherwise be classified as MIA and be returned via the military in the manner he was. Ive read Dean assumed he could of been involved in intelligence, but was not positive about that. I have never seen him mention such as a fact, so a quote would probably do to work on such a premise you made.

[Raya]

131. Dean has said that brother was a civilian tourist. Admit a Mistake, Please

[sandnsea]

3. Here's a link

"Asked by The Quad-City Times, which is based in Davenport, Iowa, to complete the sentence "My closest living relative in the armed services is," Dr. Dean wrote in August, "My brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead."

"Mark Ridolfi, editor of the paper's editorial page, noted that the question had specifically asked about the armed services and said of Dr. Dean's reply, "It certainly is not an accurate response."

"Knowing that story tells us something about the candidate," it continued. "So does inaccurately implying a direct family connection to the armed services for the 72,000 Quad Citians who received Sunday's newspaper."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/politics/campaigns/23DEAN.html

[stickdog]

4. His brother dying in Laos is obviously not good enough.

How dare Dean think of his slain brother!

[sandnsea]

5. Hey, I didn't write it

I just linked it.

But Howard shouldn't have implied his brother served in the military when he didn't. My cousin was an Air Force POW in Hanoi. I'm sorry for Howard's brother and his family. But he didn't serve in the military. He just didn't.

[Warren Stuart]

16. No he just gave his life for his country

How dare he. <sarcasm>

[bearfartinthewoods]

21. how in the hell to you spin a tourist who wandered into a war zone

as giving his life for his country??????

[mouse7]

25. Read this.

News-Info-Alerts

Re: Laotian Grave Reveals 29-Year Mystery

From: POW-MIA InterNetwork

Date: November 19, 2003

"Laotian grave reveals an answer to a 29-year mystery

By Marian Wilkinson United States Correspondent
Washington

Presidential candidate Howard Dean reacted sombrely to the news that the remains of his brother Charlie and his companion, the Australian journalist Neil Sharman, may have been recovered - 29 years after they were murdered by guerillas in Laos.

"This has been a long and emotional journey", said Dr Dean. "We greet this news with mixed emotions, but are gratified that we may now be approaching closure to this painful episode in our lives."

The Pentagon yesterday confirmed that the remains believed to be those of Charlie Dean and Neil Sharman were excavated from a Laotian rice field on November 8 and will be sent to a military laboratory in Hawaii for identification at the end of this month.

Dr Dean said he was confident the remains were those of his brother, but a spokesman for the Pentagon's office handling Missing in Action searches said they could not yet confirm the identity of the remains.

"We found a number of remains and fragments, but the number of individuals represented here cannot be confirmed until the lab finishes its work," said Larry Greer, of the Pentagon.

The three-decade search for the two men, who disappeared in Laos in 1974, has been a frustrating quest for both the families and the Pentagon Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command office.

Charlie Dean, a political activist, and Sharman went to communist-controlled Laos apparently investigating the war.

The two were taken prisoner by the Pathet Lao, who believed they were spies. They were killed on the way to the North Vietnamese border in December 1974.

Mr Greer said the Pentagon had conducted seven investigations in Laos, in which many witnesses were interviewed. "They accumulated a lot of evidence, including interviews with villagers and so on, to a likely place to where remains could be discovered, then they schedule the excavation," he said.

His younger brother's disappearance had a huge impact on Howard Dean and focused his early career in medicine. In February last year, Dr Dean went to Laos to join the Pentagon team searching for his brother's remains.

©2003 The Age Company Ltd"

http://www.aiipowmia.com/inter23/in201103grave.html

Are you done now?

[SahaleArm]

32. Says Charlie was a political activist investigating the war...

Can a civilian be considered a POW?

[bearfartinthewoods]

51. yes..a civilian can be captured and be a prisoner but he or she is NOT

Missing in Action.

NOR IS A CIVILIAN IN THE MILITARY as dean said his vrother was and the issue this thread is about.

[sandnsea]

40. Dean doesn't believe it

"There was speculation that Charlie was in Laos because he was working for the CIA, and I think my parents believed that to be the case," Dean wrote in his book. "Personally, I don't think he was employed by the U.S. government in any capacity, but we'll probably never know the answer to that question."

I'm sure he'll "evolve", but he hadn't previously believed Charlie was CIA or anything else of the sort.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16636-2003Nov26?language=printer

[bearfartinthewoods]

134. no, but you are..

done or at least i hope so if you are now relying on Laotian suspicions to justify dean's lie that his brother was military.

[Warren Stuart]

35. Because tourists who disappear in foreign countries

Don't get classified as POW's.

[bitchkitty]

44. Stop referring to him as a tourist -

it's idiotic. He was a political activist. Laos was a war zone. What, he was working on his tan? You guys crack me up.

[sandnsea]

23. What???

Where in the world do you come up with that? Nobody knows what he was doing there. For all I know he was helping the Laotians.

Irregardless, it isn't about Charlie Dean. It's about Howard lying again.

[Warren Stuart]

45. Howard lying again?

Please enumerate all of Howards lies, then compare them to the lies of GWB, and then try to tell me that Dr. Dean is a liar.

I don't buy your analysis, I'm sorry if your preferred candidate is not doing well (I'm for Edwards myself) but this dosn't justify character assassination.

[sandnsea]

53. The one Edwards made him retract

How about we start with that one? The one that gave him his big anti-war candidate boost after Trippi arrived on the scene and turned Howard into the outsider anti-war maverick?

"What I want to know is why our Democratic candidates are supporting Bush's unilateral war." February, DNC meeting.

The lie that had Edwards speaking to Kerry on the floor of the Senate in such a manner that he was overheard and obviously angry.

The lie that Dean had to retract, but is still very much in people's minds whenever Dean says he's anti-war.

How about that one, for starters?

[mouse7]

19. yeah... you're completely innocent

not.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. innocent of what?

failure to OFFER ONLY PRAISE?

[ibegurpard]

27. Did you happen to catch the last post in this thread?

If that's true and I were saying what you are saying I would be mighty ashamed of myself. That's just me, however.

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. apparently dean doesn't believe the CIA crap either

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/22/a_meteoric_rise_in_vermont_politics/

A short time later, Charlie embarked on his trip to Southeast Asia. It's not clear why he went. His father knew a man in USAID in Laos. Big Howard himself had traveled unenlisted to Africa and Asia during World War II seeking to be a part of the action. Later, some close to the Dean family speculated that Charlie could have been a spy because the Army listed him as POW/MIA, .a theory Howard Dean rejects.
.
And from ABC News:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/DailyNews/fielddean-5.html

There are still unanswered questions. Why did the U.S. government classify Charlie as an POW/MIA, when Charlie had never been in the military? Dean acknowledged that some members of his family thought Charlie was in the CIA, but he said he didn't believe that. He didn't know why the government had done that, he said, and no one from his family had ever asked. He would, as president, get to the bottom of that mystery, he said.


my bold ...

[frustrated_lefty]

156. When was the CIA our only overseas agency?

Was he in the NSA? The NSC? And, realistically, when have you ever vacationed in Laos?

[sandnsea]

24. We can't post links anymore???

Things are getting pretty sad around here.

[oasis]

133. In light of recent events here, I am inclined to agree. Two months ago

I was convinced that only Bushbots thought in terms of "black and white". I thought the Bushistas were the only ones so obsessed with protecting their guy that the truth became their enemy.

[bearfartinthewoods]

146. the similarities are amazing aren't they?

i'm starting to be as concerned about howard's re-education camps as i am about bush's.

[Toucano]

67. Or did he....

I think that's the interesting thing. Maybe his brother was.

Dean supporters:

Please realize every discussion isn't an ATTACK!

[TLM]

104. THere is question as to Dean's brother being CIA...

Since it isn't as if Laos was a big tourist spot in the middle of the vietnam war.



And when was that question asked... since Dean said his brother IS a POW but it almost certianly dead.

THat must have been made many many years ago... since Dean knows now for sure that his brother was murdered and they've recovered his remains.

[bearfartinthewoods]

163. of course dean's statements that he doesn't believe it do nothiing

to discourage the contining CIA rumor.

it is so weird to watch dean supporters dismiss their own candidate words in order to try and justify his lie.

[bearfartinthewoods]

6. how dare he?

puleaze....either he has severe comprehension problems and doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground or he was trying to exploit the POW?MIA issue.

jeeeesus..this has got to be the lowest piece of crap i have ever seen a politician try and pull.

how dare he think of his slain brother as a political assest to be exploited is more to the point.

[stickdog]

10. If his brother died in Laos while he was on a mission for the US govt,

what exactly is your beef?

Wouldn't this naturally come to mind considering that Dean wears his brother's belt buckle to this day?

[Democrats unite]

14. If is a very big word my friend...

eom.

[TLM]

107. Well Dean bashers see no problem exploiting Dean's brother

as a means to attack Dean.

Face facts... if his brother was CIA, it isn;t like they're going to say that Yes for sure he was CIA. Intel ops down work like that.

Although don't let that get in the way of craping all over Dean's brother in order to attack Dean.

If your brother was a POW in Laos, either as a reporter gathering information or a CIA agent/asset doing the same, and was murdered for it... then you were asked about the closest military connection in your family, you wouldn't mention it?

Dean's brother was a POW in Laos...that's true. I know some folks here hate that fact because it makes it harder to attack Dean, but get over it.

[bearfartinthewoods]

128. have you read the quotes posted in this thread where dean say he

doesn't believe the CIA stuff? but of course now the spin is that he was a reporter.......

and to answer your question, no...when asked the question that dean was asked, i would not refer to my civilian brother as an attempt to create a personal connection to the military.

[OrAnarch]

7. well...

if true I think this is a technically erroneous response. Well, actually not erroneous as he didn't state his brother was a member of the armed forces, but rather dodged the question entirely. But if viewed as him saying "my brother was in the armed foreces", intelligence and the armed forces are not considered one in the same, so that would of been an incorrect statement. Maybe he knows something we do not? Most definately though, his brother could of been involved in a combat mission for all we know, and in such case, the disctinction is small at best.

[bearfartinthewoods]

12. technically erroneous??WTF?

there has to be something in the water!!!!!

from the article:
"Asked by The Quad-City Times, which is based in Davenport, Iowa, to complete the sentence "My closest living relative in the armed services is,"

and dean's response?
"My brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead."

and latter ATTEMPT to justify it:
"The way I read the question was that they wanted to know if I knew anything about the armed services from a personal level,"

like i said the most charitable explanation is that he is stupid.

EVERY FUCKING TIME I COME TO SOME SORT OF PEACE WITH THIS MAN BEING OUR NOMINEE, HE DOES SOMETHING TO MAKE ME WANT TO BARF AT THE IDEA.

[stickdog]

15. It's like someone asking you who is your closest dead family member,

and you answering that your best friend died in a tragic accident.

Inaccurate, but understandable and related.

[artr2]

69. So, after Dean wins the nomination

How soon do you start working for Rove? You people blow up the smallest little thing and make it the end of the freeking world. Too bad you candidate isn't doing well. You know what they say, the cream rises to the top. You figure out the rest.

[retyred]

129. Your wasting your time

The man is a liar, as long as his defenders make excuses for him he will continue to lie, your attempt to expose this lie leads me to believe that you might think that his defenders don't know he's lying, but that's not true. They know, They just don't care.

We've seen this for three years. bush gets away with his lies not because most don't know he's lying, bush gets away with his lies because most don't care, bush's following is of the mind set that while he may lie, he's their guy so it's OK, as long as their guy wins, the end justifies the means.

What we have here is SSDD.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[DemBones DemBones]

26. If you're asked about family members serving

in the military and your reply is to mention your brother being MIA/POW, without specifying that he was a civilian tourist when captured (and probably killed), any reasonable person would think your brother was in the military.
The response did not answer the question honestly but did imply he had a brother who died serving his country.

His response to complaints about his statement is the same sort of response Bush gave to Diane Sawyer: "What's the difference?" Bush doesn't understand that he said he was invading Iraq to destroy Saddam's WMD but now that no WMD have been found, he says "What's the difference?"

Dean is essentially saying "What's the difference? My brother died in Laos, near VietNam, so I should be able to act as if he was a soldier killed in combat."

Yes, his brother was killed and that's a great loss for his family. But the brother did not die in the service of his country and to imply that he did dishonors all those who did serve in Viet Nam.

The Dean family has certainly benefited from the military's willingness to search for a young man who was not a soldier and from the military returning what are believed to be his remains -- which they are now testing. There are families of MIA soldiers who resent the way the Dean case received high priority this year.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

70. Exactly my problem with it. Great post

What's really galling is Dean's *apparently* trying to *glorify* his brother's death as a military sacrifice. The honest thought process behind the thinking appears to be: "Well, nobody in my family served but my brother died in a war zone so I can relate." If that was Dean's war fogged thought process then he should have stated something similar. Instead he let the implication of actual service hang out there. And now he bitches about foul play? For a written answer?

[TLM]

108. Ask yourself again and again until you're willing to answer...

"The Dean family has certainly benefited from the military's willingness to search for a young man who was not a soldier and from the military returning what are believed to be his remains -- which they are now testing. There are families of MIA soldiers who resent the way the Dean case received high priority this year."

Why would the military clasify a civilian as POW? WHy would they put resources into recovering this civilian?

Dean's bother was rumored to be CIA, although Dean said he did nto think that was the case, I get the impression that the CIA does not exactly encoruage the family memebers of their assets to tell everybody about it.

[SahaleArm]

140. DOD classified civilians missing in the war zone.

Any non-enlisted U.S. citizen thought to be missing during the time of war was added to the list of civilians, regardless of whether they worked for the government. The work is done in concert with the State Department.

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/

[DemDogs]

130. Charlie Dean was a huge anti-war activist

No one knows why he was in Laos, but the idea that he was CIA seems unbelievable. There were Americans who went to the war zone to support the opposition; Jane Fonda is the most famous, but it is more likely that Charlie Dean fell in that category than he switched from a McGovern organizer and anti-war activist to CIA under Nixon.
Should Howard Dean be able to grieve? Yes. Should he say he was a combatant? No. Should the US treat all missing US citizens in a war zone as MIA? I don't know, but I hope that they do, whether they are soldiers, or reporters, or anti-war activists. But Charlie Dean is not the issue. RIP.

The problem for Howard Dean is that, as usual, he wants it both ways. And he talks about everything in a way that they audience in front of him wants to hear. His brother was an acti-war activist; his brother died in the service of his country at war. He never said we would be better off without Saddam; he said we would be better off without Saddam. He doesn't open his records because he doesn't think he should reveal personal medical histories of citizens who wrote him; his opened records contain just such letters exposing the medical conditions of citizens. He is the least disciplined major candidate we have had in years. And that is bad, bad news for us if he gets the nomination.

[maddezmom]

8. His brother did not serve in the military

maybe he was in the CIA.

The rest of the article is worth reading, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Also in the article is a NEW faux pas

from Dr. Dean:

"At a town hall meeting in Exeter, N.H., on Monday afternoon, Dr. Dean referred to the centrist Democratic Leadership Council as "the Republican part of the Democratic Party" even while talking about the need to bring unity among Democrats."

[stickdog]

13. Faux pas or truth? (nt)

[OrAnarch]

11. "My closest living relative in the armed services is,"

OFF TOPIC: WTF was this question even on the questionaire? Should family military history even be a political litmus test? Is this a political issue? Seems rather odd in itself...and pisses me off I live in a country where military experience of family (and candidates) is even an issue.


But despite such, Dean probably made a mistake confusing military with intelligence in his answer. Not something I believe is a mortal sin. Looks like such a question is posed to determine how patriotic someone is based on their family service, and perhaps Dean was only trying to show that his brother did serve the government in such a way (although it was not in the military branch).


Again, disgusts me that such a question would exist.

[bearfartinthewoods]

17. well it seems seven other candidates were not confused.....

gee..i wonder how they all managed to cut throught the confusion and correctly answer the question without trying to exploit anyone?

"Seven other candidates responded to question about the armed services. Mr. Kerry said, "They're all retired now," while Senator Bob Graham of Florida, who has since dropped out, cited his brother, Bill, who was in the Air Force in World War II. Senator John Edwards of North Carolina mentioned his father-in-law, a retired Navy pilot, and Senator Joseph I. Lieberman named his nephew, Adam Miller.

Former Senator Carol Moseley Braun of Illinois wrote, "I come from a small family and I do not currently have a relative in the armed forces."

Representative Dennis J. Kucinich of Ohio listed his brothers Frank (Vietnam) and Gary (Japan) as well as his sister Beth, who "served stateside." Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri noted that he himself had been in the Air National Guard, "but currently I don't have any relatives in the service."

such an outrage that mean old newspapers ask such tough questions isn't it? </sarcasm>

[OrAnarch]

20. I never said he was confused...

I said he confused the answer, which could have most definately been done intentionally. I attempted to use such as an alternative verb...sorry for the confusion. :)


My take is this: this question establishes if a person is raised in patriotic family (because someone "served" their country). Dean wanted to answer what this question was implying, rather than what this question was asking.


IMO, its a bullshit question in the first place.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. what part of this story do you dispute

if it's a true story and people are discussing it, you have a problem with that?

discussing the truth about howard brush dean the third is now an attack?

[CWebster]

62. BINGO!

This mindset has infiltrated everything and it is a disgrace.

[ModerateMiddle]

76. Apparently the question was asked

so that readers could get an idea of what kind of connection/understanding each candidate has about the military.

It seems reasonable to me.

[Raya]

86. Dean Brother was as TOURIST not a "spy". Doesn't honesty matter anymore?

[mouse7]

18. DEAN'S BROTHER WAS CIA IN LAOS

The Pentagon officially listed Dean's brother as an MIA. the Pentagon paid for the recovery operation to recover the body.

He was in Laos illegally.

Now enough of you dancing on Dean's brother's grave less than a month after the man's was buried.

You guys have no shame.

[sandnsea]

28. Dean used his brother politically

He's the one with no shame.

[mouse7]

31. Yep... that one got bought you an alert click.

That's about as insulting of a candidate as one can get. Candidate insults ARE against the rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

36. show me the rule...

Candidate insults ARE against the rules.

show me the rule.

truth means nothing in the dean campaign

[mouse7]

39. Nicknames for Democratic candidates, supporters, and opponents are not per

Nicknames for Democratic candiates, their supporters, or their opponents are no longer permitted anywhere on Democratic Underground.

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[mitchum]

47. YOU are the one who needs to familiarise himself w/ the rules

You were wrong about cursing in reply posts and you are wrong about this

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

29. show me proof...other than the possibility that dean used his influence to

get the pentagon involved?

[DemBones DemBones]

30. No, it's Dean who has no shame. He USES his dead brother.

There is no proof of Dean's brother being CIA . Or perhaps you have a link to proof?

[stickdog]

33. Not unless Rove outs him to Nofacts. (nt)

[OrAnarch]

34. Whats the difference...

To prove one comes from a patriotic family, whats the difference of using a dead brother who served intelligence rather than a dead father or grandfather who served in the army. Lets get to the root of the question in the first place and figure out what its really ask: are you from a patriotic family (have family members served).


We should really rather be asking, why would this question be asked in the first place.

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. oh yeah...we should be asking anything!

ask why the question was put to him.
ask why the sky is blue.
but for dean's sake, don't ask what the fuck is wrong with this man that he would try to exploit his dead brother for political purpose.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

56. Mommmeeeeeeee! Make him stop!

[ibegurpard]

58. And here you are defending using someone's dead brother

as a campaign wedge issue. Sad.

[QC]

68. Actually, no, but thanks for playing!

We have a lifetime supply of Turtle Wax and Rice-A-Roni waiting for you backstage!

[bicentennial_baby]

64. What are you alerting on?

Where are rules being broken so much that you feel the need to alert?

[OrAnarch]

42. Any answer is exploitation short of none!

Thats what you do not get. This quesiton is begging candidates to exploit their dead relatives who served to prove they are patriotic. I think it was a mistake Dean dodged the question, but he answered the implicit statement exploiting his family member, just as the others answered exploiting their releatives who served. Its a bullshit question in the first place. Thats what I am fired up about. It pisses me off we should find such a question in a political climate. This country is fucked up.

[stickdog]

43. Exactly! And how dare Wellstone use his own memorial for political

purposes!

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

46. people should stop bugging the mods about bogus alerts

to infractions of non-existing rules and try following the real rules themselves.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

125. do you dispute any part of the news article?

if not, then it is the truth and we are discussing it.

but, of course, discussion of the truth about Howard Brush Dean The Third is an attack.

[Jerseycoa]

109. Lose-Lose

If he were a political activist on the one hand and CIA on the other, it makes him an infiltraitor of the peace movement, which constitutes a serious betrayal of the left. For any supporter of a so-called anti-war candidate, who may end up being our nominee, this is really a very bad line to take.

There is no evidence Dean's brother was in the CIA. Please stop saying it.

This is from the VFW website and explains how it works when POW/MIA civilian remains are returned - they are treated as military:

VFW, Dec. 9, 2003

The VFW and JPAC officials discussed the recent successful recovery in Laos of remains believed to be those of two civilians, American Charles Dean, brother of presidential candidate Howard Dean, and Australian Neil Sharman. Both were last seen in 1974.

"All remains recovered are treated as military personnel until the JPAC team identifies the remains," said Banas. "I know that some of our VFW members expressed concern about seeing coverage of a flag-draped coffin, but that has always been JPAC's policy as a sign of respect.

"Our country has a long-standing policy of returning all American, including civilian, remains uncovered in Southeast Asia. Of the 1,875 Americans still missing and unaccounted for from the Vietnam War, more than 30 are civilians. If the remains are identified as those of Charles Dean there would be closure for the Dean family, but no military honors would be rendered," Banas said.

Final identification of remains could take anywhere from one month to years. Identification is based on evidence and remains recovered in consultation with family members. Banas has been assured that no preferential treatment will be given to the Dean remains or any other remains recovered.

[bearfartinthewoods]

126. yes, they are treated like military because until the remains

are officially IDed, they may actually be military personel and entitled to the honored treatment given to those who served.

[bearfartinthewoods]

132. you keep saying this and i'm just gonna have to keep correcting you

dean's brother is listed MM wich is the designator for civilian.

dean doesn't believe the CIA crap (quick check your email for todays memo).

the body was return by the pentagon at their expense and with honors because until it has been positively IDed, there is a chance that it may be the body of a military person and entitled to the attention of the pentagon instead of a tourist, or an illegal alien.

[SahaleArm]

49. Officially Classified Civilian: Status MM - Missing in Action

Official Record: http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/pmsea_info_d609.htm

DEAN, CHARLES
SERVICE: US CIVILIAN ( Complete Service Report )
STATUS: MM - MISSING IN ACTION
(PRESUMPTIVE FINDING OF DEATH NOT RECORDED FOR CIVILIANS)
DATE OF INCIDENT: 1974/09/10
HOME OF RECORD: NY ( Complete State Report )
COUNTRY OF LOSS: LAOS
VEHICLE TYPE: GROUND

Status Codes:

Individuals Accounted For:
AR - AWOL/Deserter/Collaborator Returnee
BR - Body Recovered
EE - Escapee (Not on State Reports)
KR - Died in Captivity, Remains Returned
NR - Remains Returned/Remains Recovered
RR - Returnee (Not on all State Reports)

Individuals Unaccounted For:
BB - Killed in Action, Body not Recovered
KK - Died in Captivity, Remains Not Returned
MM - Missing (Civilians only)
PP - Prisoner (Civilians only)
XX - Presumptive Finding of Death

[sandnsea]

55. The question is military connection

Howard answered a question about his closest living relative in the service with Charlie Dean as a POW/MIA, presumed dead. The implication was that his brother died serving in the Vietnam War. That's the way Howard chose to make the connection when he knew there was no connection between military service and his brother's death.

[SahaleArm]

57. Status MM is for missing civilians n/t

[sandnsea]

59. So he wasn't in the military

That's the whole issue in question. Are we in agreement there?

[SahaleArm]

61. Yes officially he was a civilian.

Military personnel are given different status codes.

[dsc]

73. If he was a CIA agent

wouldn't that be serving in the VietNam War?

[SahaleArm]

139. Charlie was strongly anti-Vietnam...

This has been confirmed by Mrs. Edwards. Was he a double-agent for the CIA? So far that is only speculation. He's classified as a civilian, which means he was not in the armed forces. I have no idea how ex-CIA would be classified but there is little evidence pointing to any CIA association.

[dsc]

151. Wouldn't being anti VietNam War be a good cover?

I would think so. And he would be classified as a civilian since the CIA doesn't confirm or deny agents.

[AngryAmish]

52. In the hope of shedding more light than heat

Is there any way for Dr. Dean to know if his brother was CIA? I would assume there would be an extensive training program. Or maybe not. That is why I am asking if anyone else knows more than I.

[LuminousX]

60. At the bottom of the barrel already?

[ibegurpard]

63. Hard to imagine that it could be scraped much lower

but then I've learned never to be surprised by anything.

[bearfartinthewoods]

141. that is a terrible thing to say about howard brush dean the third

bottom of the barrel..what a thing to say!

well...maybe he is. i remember a DUer give, as her reason for supporting dean: "We were screaming, begging for someone to speak out"

well we all know that beggars can't be choosers so i guess the bottom of the barrel was the best to hope for.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. I take this position

I don't even need to read the news reports or posts on this thread to know that this is a vile and meaningless issue for anyone to bring up now "against Dean" in any way whatsoever. There are important things to talk about, we are chosing a President. Look somewhere else for real issues to raise if you think questions should be asked about one or any of our candidates.

[windansea]

71. It's obvious that the editor of the paper

and his readers (who vote) think Dean's answer to the question was duplicitous...hardly a meaningless issue.

Also Dean's obvious slam about the 'republican wing" is in direct contradiction to his plea to stop attacks on his candidacy.

CREDIBILITY is THE ISSUE...Dean just lost some more

[no name no slogan]

78. If we're whining about how bad it is now....

just wait until the RoveCo shitstorm starts after the nomination is finalized. This latest "incident" will seem like a picnic in the park compared to what the Rethugs and their mighty Wurlitzer will unleash on our nominee.

If the man can't stand up to scrutiny now, it's best to discover that BEFORE he gets the nomination-- NOT AFTER. If he's waffling around, looking for the most palatable answer to the question, the media jackals and right-wing brownshirts will tear him apart.

Why can't he just tell the truth? Is that so difficult. Why not simply say, "No, I don't have anybody close to me who is currently in the military. However, I have reason to suspect that my brother may have been working for the CIA when he disappeared in Laos in 1974."

How hard could that be?

:eyes:

[bearfartinthewoods]

143. evidently, too hard for howard.

....

[Tom Rinaldo]

79. I honestly feel

It is better to stay far away from an emotionally charged topic like Dean's lost brother. I don't care who raises it, I wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. "Slams about the Republican wing" of the Democratic Party if and when they are made are a fair matter of debate or concern. There are plenty of issues of greater concern and higher relevency to the American public in general, or to Democrats specifically, that anything having to do with Dean's brother. Even IF you believe Dean made a duplicitous comment in regards to his brother, if that were the only duplicitous comment he ever made, none of us would care. We would only care if it is part of a pattern. And IF it is part of a pattern, then that means there must be other examples that can be looked at and debated. Fine, let those be the ones debated, not this. No one comes out looking good here.

[TLM]

116. Defending the DLC....

From being called the republican part of the democratic party...


Sorry but this is the same group which stated that liberal activists are not real democrats.

[WonderGrunion]

160. The problem with that argument is...

The only people saying that Dean has lost credibility with them on this issue appear to already believe that Dean has no credibility whatsoever. Unless there is a way to gauge negative credibility... the point is moot.

For us Dean supporters, we find this to be a non-issue.

Charlie Dean has no more relevance to this election than Billy Carter or Roger Clinton had on their brother's successful candidacies.

[windansea]

161. au contraire

This isn't about Charlie (RIP) It's about Dean's growing credibility problems...

obviously the Dean supporters posting on this thread have no problem with Dean's duplicitousness...don't see it.....or choose to follow Dean's example of playing word games with the truth.

There are a lot of people in DU who are undecided or just lurk and don't post much, and millions of undecided voters out in the primary states...they are reading and learning.

[WonderGrunion]

168. And yet...

I still don't buy that argument.

The reason people go to a political website this far before any actual primaries is because they are political activists. I think you are vastly overestimating the number of undecideds on this board. Those who aren't activists aren't going to look to DU as a source of candidate research. They'll go to CNN, CBS, ABC, (MS)NBC, or even (Blecch) Faux. They don't care what any of us think about Dean or anyone else.

Furthermore, I still stand by the contention that the only people who are expressing a credibility problem with Dean are the same people that have many other problems with Dean. At over 160 posts and growing, I've yet to see one person come to an epiphany that Dean is a liar because someone here says so. They either already felt that way, or will never feel that way.

BTW, I categorize this as equally important as Clinton's sex lie. (That is... not at all). If Dean will cause the blood pressure of Rethugs to overload because he frames the debate on what "is" is, that's all the more reason to vote for him IMHO.:evilgrin:

[windansea]

171. this poll in DU indicates many people do change

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=18010

[WonderGrunion]

169. Dupe, sorry

N/M

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. It's pretty common belief that his brother was CIA

Although it's not known for sure. His brother was not in the armed forces, but he WAS classified as a POW by the US government.

[ModerateMiddle]

77. According to the official record

which was posted up thread, he was NOT classified as MIA/POW. He was classified as MM - used for civilians.

The CIA connection is about as much of a "common belief" as the "fact" that the Saudis warned Bush about 9/11.

[dsc]

90. actually CIA agents would be classified the same way

as the CIA stands for Civilian Intelligence Agency. Further, the government will neither confirm nor deny the existence of nor the names of CIA agents. So we honestly have no clue if he was or he wasn't. But not many tourists went to Laos back then so he almost certainly was up to something.

[tjdee]

99. Uh CIA stands for CENTRAL Intelligence Agency.

[dsc]

101. sorry you are right

I was about to edit but you beat me back. Brain fart but it still is a civilian intellegence agency and its employees are civilians (unless their cover is military).

[windansea]

84. pretty common belief????

Dean himself doesn't believe his brother was CIA

and he was classified as a "civilian" pow...and Dean knew this

We can play with words all day here...bottom line is he lost some more credibility here...

[dsc]

106. While Dean has said he doesn't believe that his bro was CIA

to be clear a CIA agent would be a civilian unless his or her cover were a military position. Thus a civilian POW may well be a CIA agent.

[Armstead]

75. It was an honest statement

If Dean didn;t serve, his father didn;t serve or anyone else in his immediate family didn't serve, and his brother was a POW (which he was regardless of his status) then it is a totally acurate answer.

And the issue is whether Dean served. He obviously didn't.

Duh.

[Mairead]

81. "his brother was a POW (which he was regardless of his status)"

I think you need to check your definition. 'Prisoner of war' has a well-defined meaning.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

82. Even though it was in response to a question

specifically asking about relatives in the ARMED SERVICES.

Dean's statement alone was honest, but irrelevent in the context of the question he was responding to. It implied that his brother served in the armed forces, which is not true.

[maddezmom]

85. specifically, closet living relative

"My closest living relative in the armed services is," Dr. Dean wrote in August, "My brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead."

[windansea]

92. thank you Jesus!

fibs are fibs and trix are for kids

[MIMStigator]

80. This is Dean's worst blunder so far

this one has legs

[RetroLounge]

100. Yeah, whatever. Worst Blunder by far?

Bwahahahahahahahahahah...

Sad, so sad, pathetic, and not unexpected...

[bearfartinthewoods]

105. the dean campaign needs to issue new snappy comebacks

the unscripted ones are a little thin.

[ibegurpard]

115. I doubt they anticipated anyone would sink as abysmally low

in the Democratic Primary as to make an issue out of the military status of his dead brother. But thanks for bringing it up now. We'll definitely be prepared next time.

[windansea]

124. sorry but Dean made it an issue

when he answered a simple question in an obviously dishonest manner

Dean's reputation for double-speak and lack of credibility are growing every day as evidenced by articles like these.

The next debate is going to be very interesting!

[maddezmom]

162. the question was about living relative, not a relative

<<<"My closest living relative in the armed services is," Dr. Dean wrote in August, "My brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead.">>>

Don't know if Charlie was in the CIA or not, but that was not the question. My problem is Dean did not answer the question. He could have said - none. And then added that his brother was MIA/POW and thought he was probably no longer alive.

[TLM]

117. Yeah so does a house fly...

and just like the dean bahsers... both are full of fetid shit.

But by all means... contiue to piss on Dean's bother's grave in order to take desperate shots at Dean. It will only serve to make his critics look that more desperate and disgusting.

[bearfartinthewoods]

153. definition of a basher,,someone who wants to discuss the truth of dean.

[adadem]

177. Amen

Here, there and everywhere.

[MIMStigator]

83. Dean was asked about ARMED FORCES and named his brother as POW. Dishonest

worse than dishonest, creepy

[batman]

87. Bullshit being a POW/MIA does not mean your a soldier, but it is a related

issue which is why Dean noted it. What's creepy is this shit thread.

[ibegurpard]

88. It's not just creepy, it's ghoulish.

And it makes me sick to my stomach.

[Tom Rinaldo]

95. Yup. n/t

[MIMStigator]

89. The QUESTION asked about ARMED SERVICES, didn't say anything about POW/MIA

Dean is the one who named his brother MIA in an ANSWER about a question about ARMED SERVICES. He was trying to imply his brother was in military

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MIMStigator]

93. "My closest living relative in ARMED SERVICES is.......

his brother wasn't a related fact or missing in action.

[batman]

96. A: Well my brother was a MIA/POW so I can "relate" to those in the armed

services.

[RetroLounge]

102. Poop

eom

[dsc]

114. by that standard

most of them answered incorrectly. Unless Graham's brother and Kucinich's family are still in the service they didn't answer the question either.

[Scott Lee]

147. Full article, please.

I can see I have to detoxify another attack on Dean by putting it back into context.

[windansea]

148. link to full quad cities article

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022060&t=Opinion&c=22,1022060

[bigtree]

98. truth

[TLM]

120. They didn't ask if he had family in the armed forces....

they asked him what was the closest living relative in the armed forces... dean gave them the closest answer which was his brother who was neither living nor in the armed forces, but did die in laos and was a POW that the pentagon clasified as MM. He may have been CIA, but we do not know if he was or not.

Though even if he was I suspect you Dean haters would be screaming that he wasn't armed.

[TLM]

118. Dean was asked about his closest living relative in the armed forces...

His brother is the closest thing he has to a living relative in the armed forces, and that's a dead realitive in laos who very well could have been murdered while gathering information for the CIA.

But we all know there is no answer Dean could have given that you would not have attacked.

[windansea]

136. the closet thing....

to the truth is the truth

love how your replies evolve!!

[Scott Lee]

145. Do you think that only military personel can be prisoners during wartime?

I guess you haven't been following the Gitmo rave lately?

[MIMStigator]

94. 2 false hoods. Dean brother not in armed services and not MIA

It's like when Dean tried to say AIDS patients were the reason he hides his records. This one will have legs.

[batman]

97. This one WILL have legs, all the way to the polls

"this one" is something out of nothing again. MIA/POW are often used in concert.

[killbotfactory]

119. After reading this thread, I think I need a shower...

Jesus fucking christ, I'm amazed at how low some people will go.

[Scott Lee]

121. Much a doo doo about nothing

Dean put it best in an MSNBC interview posted today (12/23/03)

"I think a lot of journalism is gotcha — can you find something that I said in 1985 that contradicts a position now. A lot of it is Senator So-and-So said something about Senator So-and-So and there is a lot of back and forth. You know that doesn’t really contribute much to the debate. It is entertaining, but it’s not very serious. The things that I would like write about if I were a reporter is policy differences. Go into the policy. First of all, ask the tough questions about policy."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3130149/


Thank you, Howard, for once again correctly identifying the failing strategy of those who focus on minutae rather than the important things, out of pure personal spite.

[ibegurpard]

123. Here's what he had to say specifically about THIS fetid smear

In response to the editorial--

"Dr. Dean called the editorial, which referred to his brother as a "renegade," "one of the greatest cheap shots I've ever seen in journalism."

"It's offensive and insensitive not to understand what the impact of this is," he said, "writing about this in such a tawdry way."

Dr. Dean also wrote a letter to the paper, saying he was "deeply offended" by the editorial."

From the same NYT article above.

[windansea]

138. good

that will draw more attention to the story!

[Scott Lee]

142. that story will draw nothing but flies

for....the obvious reason.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

122. I don't know why a written answer could not have clarified things

It's not like Dean responded verbally and misspoke. He had time to think about what the implications were, and it certainly looks like he was trying to imply his brother was in the service.

[batman]

127. clear as mudd

Asked by The Quad-City Times, which is based in Davenport, Iowa, to complete the sentence "My closest living relative in the armed services is," Dr. Dean wrote in August, "My brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead."

The brother, 23-year-old Charles Dean, whose apparent remains were recovered by a military search team last month in Laos, was classified as missing in action, along with other civilians captured or killed in the area during the Vietnam War.

"The way I read the question was that they wanted to know if I knew anything about the armed services from a personal level," he said. "I don't think it was inaccurate or misleading if anybody knew what the history was, and I assumed that most people knew what the history was. Anybody who wanted to write about this could have looked through the 23-year history to see that I've always acknowledged my brother's a civilian, was a civilian."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/politics/campaigns/23DEAN.html?pagewanted=print&position=

now get on with your lives - im getting on with mine

[Scott Lee]

144. We aren't always going to have the best pens in the world.

Sad, but true.

[TrueAmerican]

135. How come moveon.org can run Bush Misleader ads

And we might have MisLeader Dean as the nominee. Talk about a bomb exploding in your face.

[oasis]

137. Maybe Rove/Russert etc. will be nice enough not to bring up this issue.

[bearfartinthewoods]

154. yeah...right. we are soooooo screwed.

[windansea]

150. links to quad cities article & NY Times article

read them!

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022060&t=Opinion&c=22,1022060

and NY Times article
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/politics/campaigns/23DEAN.html?ex=1072846800&en=069b2492c69761ac&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[Jerseycoa]

152. Whoa

Last Sunday, Howard Dean offered an unusually revealing answer.

The candidates were asked to complete this sentence: My closest living relative in the armed services is...?

Dean's reply: "...my brother is a POW/MIA in Laos, but is almost certainly dead."

I don't know how I missed the timing. I thought we were talking about sometime in the past. He answered that way last Sunday?

On edit: Confusing, the Times story says he answered the question in August.

[incapsulated]

155. For christ sake what part of the question DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND??

"The candidates were asked to complete this sentence: My closest living relative in the armed services is...?"

"The candidates were asked to complete this sentence: My closest living relative in the armed services is...?"

"The candidates were asked to complete this sentence: My closest living relative in the ARMED SERVICES is...?"

Repeated for those who are pretending to have some sort of reading comphrension problem.

Now, we are being called scum because we are bringing up Deans dead brother. It was Dean that brought up his dead brother, not us, not the articles.

If you are going to give misleading statements about your dead brother, statements that imply that he was a memeber of the military when you know damn well that he was not, in answer to a questions specifically about family in the miliatary, you have no one to blame but yourself.

As for being "offended", those that have lost family who were serving in Vietnam have more reason to be offended by this than anyone attempting to spin this for their candidate.


"The U.S. Department of Defense classified Charlie Dean as Missing in Action, meaning that he was among those officially sought by our government. He wasn't the only civilian with such a classification.

But he was a civilian, not a member of the armed services."

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022060&t=Opinion&c=22,1022060

[frustrated_lefty]

157. Ok, for christ's sake...

you have a brother in the spooks. He may be CIA, he may be NSA, he may be NSC. You don't know. Somebody says to you, we have your brother's body. What words of wisdom do you have to answer, when you first learn your brother is confirmed to be dead and you don't know the details of what he did in his life?

[windansea]

158. "He crossed the Pacific by freighter."

"He worked on an Australian ranch."

yep...sounds like Cia to me...

Dean himself doesn't think his brother is a spook!

next??

[incapsulated]

159. He said it didn't believe that story

And if he did, why didn't he say so, instead of saying his brother died "in the armed services", as a "POW/MIA"?

He didn't just learn his brother had died, he assumed he was dead, he said so himself. Please don't make this out to be the anguished cry of a distraught brother who has just learned his brother has died. He has been missing for decades and his family had obviously assumed he was dead for quite a while.

And I don't think confusing your civilian brother with members of the "armed services" is a little "detail" you just forget. I know who died in my family and what they did for a living and whether they were serving in the military when they died, don't you?

[windansea]

164. kick n/t

[dsc]

165. hold on there

He didn't say his brother was in the armed forces he said he was missing.

[frustrated_lefty]

167. I know who died in my family

In the CIA, NSC, NSA, no, you don't necessarily know. How many people do you know who went backpacking in Laos in the early 70s?

Dean's brother was either an absolute idiot or he was a government operative of some kind. I don't think he was an idiot. Perhaps you have evidence that he was?

[Jackhammer Jesus]

170. Perhaps you have evidence that he was a government operative?

Because as far as I know, it's just a rumor. One that Dean himself doesn't believe.

I think you're missing the point anyway. Dean was asked about relatives in the ARMED SERVICE. His brother was irrelevent because he wasn't in the armed forces. That's the issue. He was asked a very simple question about family members in the armed forces, and responded with the name of a family member who was NOT in the armed service - and responded in a way that suggested he WAS.

Isn't that clear enough?

Added note: I don't think this thread deserves as much attention as it got. I don't think it's as big an issue as some others do. I'm just compelled to respond because there are quite a few people here who are oblivious to the mistake that was made, and are even going to the extent of trying to justify it.

[arewethereyet]

172. this was a terrible idea on his part

such a mis-truth will likely not sit well with Iowans. God knows how the Right can play with it as well.

[IndianaGreen]

174. The author of the thread did not provide any proof to his baseless charges

simply because this is nothing but a smear.

Amazing that an unsubstantiated story being peddled by rightwing radio and internet sites finds a willing audience in a liberal website.

On edit:

Read what a Kerry supporter wrote in Truthout about the smear about Dean's brother:

But the ad in Iowa, the nonsense about Hussein’s capture, and these most recent smears about Dean’s brother, are a cancer. It smacks of bitterness, of candidates who thought it was their turn and now feel thwarted by this doctor who came out of nowhere. It smells like brimstone, because if it continues, it will return to haunt us in the general election, the “Dean can’t win” claims will become a self-fulfilling prophesy, Bush will secure victory in 2004, and we will reap the whirlwind. If the Democratic party eats itself over the nomination of Howard Dean, it will cease to exist as a viable force in America, and deservedly so. Memo to the DLC and DNC: You have been warned.

http://truthout.org/docs_03/122403A.shtml

[arewethereyet]

175. here's a NYT link

of course its the NYT and you KNOW what a bunch of liars they are...


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/23/politics/campaigns/23DEAN.html