The Che Guevarra Wear

[erpowers]

I have seen many kids/young people with the shirts and now pants that have the picture of Che Guevarra on them. Has anyone from DU asked any of these people if the actually know who is on their shirts and pants and what he stood for. Today I saw a young person with one of the shirts and I just thought is he making a statement in support of Che Guevarra or is he wearing the shirt because everyone else is wearing it. I am seriously considering asking people who I see with the shirt if they know who the guy on their shirt is and if they know what he stood for. I am not trying to be mean to people for not knowing or supporting Guevarra; I just want to know if they are informed as to who is on their shirt and/or pants.

[Bridget Burke]

1. Please, ask them.

And offer to illuminate them with your knowledge of Ernesto Guevara De La Serna. Also known as Che.

What do you believe he stood for?

[erpowers]

4. What I read

From what I read he was a Marxist revolunitary who fought on the side of Castro and was shot by the CIA or FBI in about the late 60's.

[NoPasaran]

2. Okay, I finally get to tell this story...

My brother's girlfriend was a school teacher. One day she asked a student who had come to class wearing a Che Guevara tshirt if he knew whose picture that was. He asnswered, "Oh, yes ma'am! He was old school! He played bass with Santana!"

[mattclearing]

36. LOL...classic. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

3. You wear clothing made in Asia

Do you ask yourself about the exploited workers that manufacture our clothing, or the ones that pick our produce?

As to Che... I'll take a thousand Ches over one Bush!

Viva la Revolucion! Patria o Muerte, Venceremos!

[erpowers]

10. I Do

I do not buy and do not even look at Nike shoes in shoe magazines. I am considering buying Reebok in that on their website they claim to be pro human rights and say that they try to make sure their workers are treated properly. I like Ralph Lauren, but everytime I think about buying his clothing I think about how his clothes are made in china. I may buy some Lauren clothes when I get the money, but I will always think about how his clothes are made in China. At this point I am tring to figure out what a person like me can do in that some many of these companies have their product made in China. People cannot walk around naked. In addition, the main reason I choose Netzero as a internet provider over AOL and Yahoo is that I was trying to find a provider that did not outsource its work to a foreign country. I later found out that Netzero and other companies do send their work oversees. Finally, I choose to drink Gatorade over Powerade in that Powerade is owned by Coca Cola which is said to conduct human rights violations. Only recently, did I drink a Powerade after months of chosing to pay more for Gatorade because Powerade is produced by Coca Cola. I do plan to continue to drink Gatorade over Powerade even if I have to pay a few cents more. Many of my purchases are made based on whether a company supports human rights and allows unions.

[Ferret Annica]

61. Clothes made in the USA...

...often aren't made in the USA. There are many factories on Saipan that employ foreign nationals at exploitation wages and are just as bad as a Nike factory - in say Indonesia - but get the "Made in USA label because the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands - of which Saipan is part - is part of the U.S. South Pacific protectorate.

They do not have to pass customs or get much flack for this obvious deception aimed at hoodwinking folks into thinking they are buying America. ;-)

[1932]

5. Who really cares? So long as it isn't a Nike swoosh.

Actually, I think it'd be more interesting to stop people on the street and ask them what they think the Nike swoosh stands for.

[Bridget Burke]

9. Lalo Alcaraz made a version of the famous Che image....

With a Nike swoosh on his hat. Poor Che looked a bit annoyed.

Lalo also draws the strip "La Cucaracha."

[erpowers]

11. Interesting

I have heard the story that the way Nike got the name swoosh was two high school girls who felt that swoosh was the sound that was made when a basketball went through the net.

Are you aware of how Nike may have gotten its name? I believe Nike is the god of victory. However, another twist could be that the first marathon was run after a battle. A soldier supposedly ran 26 miles to report to the people in Greece that their Army had claimed victory. Upon arriving at Greece the soldier stated Nike and then died. I believe the soldier may have been runing to the city of marathon. However, I know he ran from the place of the battle to Greece.

[1932]

12. By the way, Marcos is the new Che.

[erpowers]

14. Marcos

Who is Marcos?

[1932]

19. Picture:

[Selatius]

73. Subcomandante Marcos, the Zapatista libertarian socialist

He became anti-establishment after the 1968 Tlatelolco massacre. It is basically Mexico's equivalent of China's Tiananmen Square Massacre.

[pattim]

16. It was Philippides running to Athens.

He first ran from Athens to Sparta (both Greek city-states) to ask the Spartans for aid against the invading Persian army. He then ran from Sparta to Marathon to tell the Greeks camped out there that no aid was coming. The Athenian army surprisingly routed the Persians at Marathon, even without Spartan support. Philippides then ran back to Athens, ran into the city marketplace, then shouted Nike!, or Victory! then collapsed and soon died.

Nike, of course, is Greek for Victory (minor gods and goddesses were often just named after what they were: Thanatos, Gk. for Death, was god of death, Echo, Gk. for echo, was the nymph for created echoes, etc., etc.)

[MojoXN]

22. Nike is the Greek GODDESS of victory.

The soldier ran from the battle at the plains of Marathon to Athens, to tell the Athenians that they had won, and then he died.

MojoXN

[Dhalgren]

56. He ran from Marathon, where the battle took place, to Athens...

[baron j]

69. Not to be pedantic but,

Nike was a Goddess. ;-)

[Captain Hilts]

6. VERY good question.

There was a group of Hispanics carrying a huge banner with his image at the anti-war march. I wanted to ask them, "what's this got to do with the war?" And, "if you think so much of this guy, why don't you move to Cuba or Bolivia?"

[Bridget Burke]

7. Why move to Cuba or Bolivia...

When there's work to be done here? Think globally, act locally.

[1932]

8. Che was anti-imperialist and is symbol of anti-neoliberalism.

[GarySeven]

13. Che was a murderer and a thug

who, along with Dr. Castro, led the Cuban people into thinking they were reformers, but, as soon as they took power, forced more than 2,500 of their once-comrades "to the wall" to be shot.

Why you or anyone on this board who professes a desire for progressivism and freedom would honor him is a total mystery - and a confounded obstacle in the cause of liberty.

[1932]

15. They had a revolutionary war.

You think people didn't get shot dead in the US Revolutionary War? Or how about the Civil War?

Both sides believed in what they were fighting for. I think the good side won all those wars.

Furthermore, if summary execution is your sin qua non for legitimacy, what do you have to say about Batista and all the other dictators who killed in defense of wealth for centuries before Castro and Che came along?

[pattim]

17. George Washington did not execute anyone who had fought

loyally for the colonies, I believe.

[1932]

18. the dark side of the revolution:

first thing I found googling. Didn't read it all the way through, and it could be bullshit, but we can read it together:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/8757/okelley.html

[GarySeven]

21. Atrocities during a war are so common they are irrelevant

This line of argument is specious and false reasoning.

The conduct of soldiers in wartime is not as important as the conduct of political leaders once the war is done.

[Capn Sunshine]

29. How do you figure they are separate entities?

One follows out of the experience of the other.

BTW What's specious is you quoting the Govvie line about Guevara robotically.

I suppose Chavez is a scoundrel as well, eh, rubio?

[GarySeven]

32. My grandfather was murdered by Che

So I think I am entitled to my opinion.

And if you don't know the difference between war (the actions of soldiers) and peace (the conduct of politicians), then you have much more to learn at community college.

[High Plains]

58. It's a drag to be on the wrong side of a revolution...

How many people were murdered by Batista?

[GarySeven]

66. Several thousand. What's your point?

If thousands were murdered by Batista and thousands murdered in revenge by Castro, just what exactly is "revolutionary" about the revolution?

[IndianaGreen]

63. You keep repeating that shit without providing details

If your grandfather was executed, it was after a trial, a summary trial if it happened on or abouts the time of CIA aggression that led to the Bay of Pigs and its aftermath.

You also did not say whether you were a Pedro Pan or a balsero exile, or whether you are a first generation Cuban-American nurtured in the exile community.

[GarySeven]

65. You, like Che and Dr. Castro, require "proof", but ...

you define what "proof" is. So, to you, my grandfather's murder is "shit." How nice - but please excuse me if I don't share your assessment. Perhaps all I need to do is to mention the phrase "Partido Ortodoxo." But never mind. I offer no defense to whatever accusation you care to make and you may believe whatever you like about me; I reject your authority to put me on trial, which is, BTW, essentially what my Grandfather did.

How like your little heroes you are, with your earnest desire to recreate their "purge trials" here on this board. Has it occurred to others, I wonder, that fervent adherents to doxology such as you are as much a threat to the progressive movement as are the Christian evangelicals a threat to the Republican Pary.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Ahhh, Partido Ortodoxo, the party of Fidel and Eddie Chivas

who unfortunately shot himself in a stunt gone awry during his radio show.

I preferred the old Partido Socialista Popular.

[GarySeven]

20. By definition a "revolution" is a change ...

and by using murder, even war, to achieve victory is no "change" - it's merely a continuation of the status quo. Certainly revolution by violence is necessary; it certainly was in Batista's removal. But I don't see how you can call it a "revolution" when Che and Castro merely replaced Batista and used the tactics he had used and they had supposedly rebelled against. A dictatorship with interchangeable heads is still a dictatorship. If you are going to use violence to overthrow corruption, then it is a moral duty thereafter to make future violent revolution unthinkable. You use your victory to so effect change in the political culture that incipient political movements can evolve and direct national policy without the leaders of those movements having to resort to old tactics. Dr. Castro didn't do that very well, did he?

[Captain Hilts]

24. Batista was a thug too. I'm glad he's not on t-shirts.

Batista being bad doesn't make Che good.

[erpowers]

55. Do You Mean?

When you say that Che was a murder and a thug are you refering to the fact that he, according to wikipedia, excuted informer, deserters, insubordinates, and spies or is there more that you know? I realize that the article on wikipedia.org could be a little misleading in that someone who is pro Guevara may have written it and chosen to use mild language. Some wikipedia article come with disclaimer that tell that the information in the article is disputed. This article did not have that, but that does not mean the person who wrote it did not use biased language. So are you talking about people (the 2,500) who could be call traitors or just people who at some point may have disagreed with Castro on how to move the country forward to a more democratic country?

[Captain Hilts]

23. So's Lenin.

If these folks carrying the Che banner hate the US, then why are they here?

Do they have Che days in Cuba and Bolivia?

[welshTerrier2]

25. Oh yeah? oh yeah?

then why did the Mets name a stadium after him ...

and you call yourself Mookie Wilson ....

[Captain Hilts]

28. They don't call it 'Lenin' Stadium any more...

I lived in that 'hood in Moscow!

[Bucky]

37. Silly. You take the linen to the cleaner's, not the stadium.

[Captain Hilts]

39. I got to linger in the mausoleum. His ears have really shrunk. nt

[blm]

30. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........

.

[Captain Hilts]

34. I'd rather wear a t-shirt with Ghandi's image on it...

or Franklin Roosevelt, or Thurghood Marshall, or Eleanor Roosevelt, or Robert Clemente, or Sojournor Truth, or...

but not Che.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

35. Yeah, but if you do that. Then you'd have to get out of here and move

to India or something. According to your own rules.

PS It's Roberto Clemente

[Captain Hilts]

38. Given the choice of Che or Ghandi, I'd choose Ghandi.

If it's about anti-imperialism. But I do wear an FDR t-shirt. And I'd wear that one before a Ghandi shirt.

I'm not going to let George Bush spoil my love of my country.

I question people that come here, yet don't seem to like our country or government. I don't get that.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. That's beautiful and all.

But if somebody told you to move here or there because of what you choose to say or wear it would still be fucking stupid. I'm yet to find anybody living "here" that doesn't like the country. I do find a shit load of people who do not like the government. Especially when it comes to an unelected illegitimate one. I honestly don't give a shit if people want to wear shirts with Santa Claus in them (maybe they should move to the North Pole).

[Captain Hilts]

42. I wouldn't move to a country then engage in protests against its govt.

Just as I object to the US govt. trying to make other countries like the US.

If the message is anti-imperialism. Ghandi's a better choice than Che. He doesn't have the baggage Che has and isn't a divisive figure as Che was and is.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

43. Good for you.

This just gets better and better. First how do you know these people (whom you're referring to) moved here from somewhere else? Second like I said. I truly don't give a shit whose face on a t-shirt is better. It's meaningless to me. I was pointing to the idiocy of telling someone to get the fuck out because the say this or wear that. Let me try again. Is or is not fucking idiotic for somebody to tell you to move because of what you choose to wear or print or whatever?

Now let's say the afore mentioned offenders are citizens of this country but were born elsewhere. When does that whole 1st amendment thing kick in for them? You know before the patriotic police gets on their ass.

If you don't like people expressing themselves. And feel so obligated to question their loyalty at the slightest hint of dissent. May suggest North Korea for you. You don't have to put up with these ungrateful types over there.

[Captain Hilts]

44. The presence of Che banners at liberal rallies feeds into

the opinion that liberals aren't patriotic. It looks bad.

I'm sorry you don't get that.

And, considering the wave of Hispanic immigration, I'm willing to bet that few of them were born here. I'm just playing the odds.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

45. Shhhhhhh, not so loud. We don't want to wake up the right wingers.

Now that is truly sorry. So this whole thing about being a great country, because WE CAN criticize the corrupt government is just something we say for shits and giggles? Damn, who knew?

Now to clarify again people who were born here should exercise their rights but up to a certain point. All you other losers who weren't born here but feel that this government doesn't represent your adopted country shut the fuck up. Got it.

My advice is next time you witness such insolence confront the bastards. I would also suggest that you brush up on your martial arts and boxing. Some of these people might take that as an insult.

[erpowers]

50. Liberals

Liberals need to open their mouths and tell people they are patriotic. The liberals must not allow republicans to define patriotism. If anyone were to question my support of the troops I would say I support the troops that is why I want them to get body armor and better pay. Then I would ask them Why do you support a president that has not done either. Liberals must begin to stand up and fight and push back against the idea that because they hold a Che banner they are not patriotic. Liberals must put forward their own definition of patriotism.

[Bridget Burke]

59. Non-Hispanics also wave Che banners....

And he is a hero of the Chicano rights movement. Chicanos are, by definition, born in the USA. I doubt most recent immigrants have time to attend rallies.

The "wave" of Hispanic immigration began before your people arrived on the Mayflower. I know for sure that many of them were on this side of the River before my people left Ireland.

I care for my country but don't care for "Patriotism." I've got the flag at home that covered my father's casket. Shall I prove I'm an American by wearing a Made In China Red White & Blue T-shirt?

[erpowers]

72. Patriotism

Patriotism is a good thing. Patriotism does not mean not liking people from other countries. Patriotism in my opinion is caring about your country and caring about the welfare of the men and women who risk their lives to protect the country. This definition does not include or promote the idea of supporting a president who starts wars for the wrong reason. I support the troops without supporting the president. You may be wondering why I seemed to go off subject talking about patriotism. I just wanted to give my definition of patriotism and in doing so needed to explain a few things.

[Bridget Burke]

76. Quite a few relatives of mine risked their lives for the country.

My father lost his.

I care about my country, but "This Land is Your Land" is my favorite patriotic song.

[erpowers]

77. Patriotism II

I respect the loses and risks of your family. I was not trying to insult them. You said you do not care for patriotism. I was pointing out that I believe patriotism is a good thing. I think liberals have to put forth a different definitation of patriotism than republicans. For me patriotism is not just following the president and doing what he said and then saying you support the troops. In my opinion that is not patriotism and is not a good thing. However, I think caring about one's country and the military personnel of the country is real patriotism and a good thing. Mainly, I was saying that you do not have to dislike real patriotism. I think what you do not care for is not real patriotism.

[Bridget Burke]

78. This is the sort of "Pariotism" that hacks me off...

[Ferret Annica]

68. I'd wear a Ward Churchill shirt...

... before I'd wear FDR's picture. After all he lat the party hacks talk him out of William Orville Douglas as a VPOTUS and stuck us with that idiot Truman.

[Selatius]

71. Henry Wallace would have been FAR better than Truman, imho

I mean, just look at his incredible record. He was so far ahead of his time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace

[Ferret Annica]

75. I agree

I find it hard to forgive FDR for giving us Truman when there were visionaries with the stature of Henry A. Wallace around. And as I said earlier, I would have preferred FDR's first choice, William O. Douglas to Truman any day of the week.

This part of the lack of vision and cowardliness of the small and shallow men who denied us of Henry Wallace's potential as a great president is a small component of the decision making process that has moved me from the Democratic Party to the Pacific Green Party.

I despair of ever seeing a great president in office though, and I love this country, but fear it's government more and more as fascism under Bush takes hold like cancer spreading in a human body.

[High Plains]

57. Very dumb question n/t

[Telly Savalas]

26. Some 4 year old at my daughter's pre-school was wearing a Che shirt

I thought it was pretty funny and cute.

Nevertheless, I kind of doubt that most Che apparel is made in unionized North American factories.

From a cultural perspective, branding is still branding even if the brand is the icon of a leftist revolutionary. It's just a means for the branded person to distinguish themselves from the unwashed masses that wear uncool brands like Nike or whatever.

[blm]

27. My daughter wore hers alot. Many times people would ask her who was on her

shirt, and my brilliant 4yo would reply, "It's Che....justice for all."

Eric Burdon saw her in her shirt and added VIVA LA REVOLUTION to it with a marker.

Someday I will post that pic.

[welshTerrier2]

31. that's great BLM ...

i'd love to see that pic ...

[southpaw]

33. I wear my Che shirt frequently

and I have the Che image on the back window of my van... one of those white vinyl decals.

I respect Che, though admittedly he had a dark side.

Here in Alabama, most people who see my shirt or decal have no clue who the person is or what he stood for. Those conservatives that know who he is are angered every time they see his image. That is the primary reason I wear it.

[mattclearing]

41. I dig your avatar.

But I agree with the others that there are much worthier standard bearers to adorn ourselves with.

And hell, if pissing Republicans off is your goal, why not sport Michael Moore?

[southpaw]

49. Moore sure does piss 'em off!

I may have to seek out an F-911 t shirt.

And thanks for the avatar props... the Movie-Marvin is my favorite rendition of the paraniod android.

[rniel]

46. Your post

Made me do a little quick googling cause I really didn't know much about him either except he worked with castro for a while.

Interesting guy. I'll leave it at that.

[wyldwolf]

47. I wouldn't be caught dead in one

... and I, too, would ask any kids wearing them if they knew what/who he was.

I think you know my opinion.

[rolleitreks]

48. Inspiring youth, murderous adult . . .

"You say you want a revolution?
. . .
But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is, 'Brother you'll have to wait.'"

[Bridget Burke]

60. He was a soldier, not a murderer.

Pacifism is more noble, of course.

[Steely_Dan]

51. Yes, I Have

I ran into a 16 year old the other day at LAX. Being the assertive person I am I asked him if he knew who was on his shirt....

To my amazement, he did.

Then I asked him who he was...that is, what did he do.

To my amazement again, he knew.

I thought for sure that he would have been clueless...but never underestimate youth. Some are tuned in more than we think.

-Paige

[Blue_Tires]

52. eh...

some liberal icons come and go as far as style is concerned...back when i was in middle/high school, it was all about the Malcolm X shirts (and precious few knew much about him until the movie came out)

[GayCanuck]

53. Funny you should ask

We had a young Quebecois in our shop in Montreal last week. He was wearing a red Che tee shirt and my partner asked him if he knew anything about Guevarra. He shrugged his shoulders and said "un homme espagnol"; rough translation; "some Spanish dude".....Che shirts are chic because Guevarra was a very handsome and very macho man; the young may have some clue as to what he stood for but I doubt it very seriously if the shirts would ever exist, say if he looked like George Costanza!

[Ferret Annica]

62. This is such a non issue

I mean, does one think a Manson shirt with "Charlie don't surf" on it means someone loves Charlie or supports the full blown pro war attitudes expressed by the character in Apocalypse Now this quot came from?

Sometimes pop culture is just plain superficial, and has no rhyme nor reason to it.

[erpowers]

74. Different Things

I think there is a difference between wearing the picture of a fictional person from a movie to wearing the picture of a real political leader. The real political leader actually said things that can be supported or not supported. Fictional characters are not real therefore what they say is not real and probably not taken seriously. The words and ideas of real political leader can be taken seriously and considered and supported.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

54. you might be seeing some Rage Against the Machine shirts

they were a band and you know how that goes:

[SteppingRazor]

64. What's really ironic is that most of these kids are solidly bourgeosie...

And if Che had his way, he'd put them all up against a wall.

[Selatius]

70. The image of Che has become totally commercialized

The original meaning of Che has been lost. The corporatized, commercialized Che is nothing more than a representation of popular resistance and anti-establishmentarianism. All the bloody history, the things he did or stood for, have been lost.