Israel's Assassination Policy v. Syria/ Hariri connection

[TexasLawyer]

The U.S. is doing some very serious saber-rattling against Syria because of Syria's possible involvement with the bombing that killed Rafiq Hariri. But Israel assasinates people all the time-- admits it-- and has done so for many years. The U.S. doesn't say "boo." We especially don't threaten a war or demand a regime change in Israel.

Not to be dense, but why the double standard?


Just some of the Israeli assasinations listed on this web-site:

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/146.shtml

Extra-Judicial Execution in Jenin, PCHR (17 October 2005)

More Israeli raids as Palestinians bury dead, PCHR (26 September 2005)

Israel threatens to invade Gaza, assassinates Hamas activist, PCHR (17 July 2005)

Israel launches air strikes in Gaza City, Al Mezan (16 July 2005)

Israel escalates attack on Palestinian towns, PCHR (16 July 2005)

Israel resumes assassination of Palestinians, PCHR (7 June 2005)

The Assassination of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin
HAMAS founder

The Assassination of Abdul 'Aziz al-Rantissi
Israel assassinates Dr. Abdul 'Aziz al-Rantissi, leader of Hamas, PCHR (18 April 2004)

Annan condemns Israel's assassination of Hamas leader Abdelaziz Rantissi, UN News (18 April 2004)


2004

Israeli undercover unit assassinates three Palestinians in Nablus, PCHR (1 November 2004)

Assassination in Khan Yunis, death toll Israeli raid northern Gaza rises to 83, PCHR (9 October 2004)

Israeli forces kill Palestinian and wound eight in another extra-judicial execution, PCHR (20 September 2004)

Al Haq condemns assassinations in Nablus and Jenin, Al Haq (16 September 2004)

Jenin: Israeli forces kill three Palestinians in extra-judicial execution, PCHR (14 September 2004)

Israel kills five Palestinians in attempt to assassinate Hamas leader, PCHR (18 August 2004)

Tulkarem: Israeli forces kill 6 Palestinians in extra-judicial execution, PCHR (26 July 2004)

Six Palestinians Extrajudicially Executed in Nablus, PCHR (27 June 2004)

Israeli forces kill two Palestinians in another extrajudicial execution, PCHR (15 June 2004)

<snip>

[niallmac]

1. The silence is deafening.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Your point?

Although I don't agree with Israel's policy, Rafiq al-Hariri was NOT a terrorist, nor was he tied to a terrorist organization. You are comparing killing the leader of the Klan/New World Order and the governor of Virginia.

[TexasLawyer]

3. Extra-judicial killing may or may not be justified

This is not meant as a criticism of Israel.

I just don't want to expand the Iraq war into Syria, and especially don't want to attack Syria on grounds of a mere possibility that someone in the Syrian government may have masterminded the Hariri assasination

[Behind the Aegis]

5. That makes it a little clearer.

It is ok to criticize Israel, I did, because I think it better to capture them, but I also don't live in a perpetual war zone.

The same desires you have, I think most of us have. Believe it or not, so does Israel. They do not an unstable Syrian government because it would be ripe for plucking by the Muslim Brotherhood. That scenario is also a fear for Jordan.

I think Syria was very wise to decide quickly to work with the UN and the world community, even if they feel the report is wrong. It may well stave off a possible attack from the loony BuchCo. I feel this is also the reason that Iran is doing the same thing. They all realize what we have known for years...this man is insane, and not in the hyperbole sense of the word!

[Coastie for Truth]

16. Well, Texas Lawyer Jim Baker (of Baker and Botts)

and Texas Lawyer Harriet Miers and Texas Lawyer Alberto Gonzales and Texas lawyer John Cornyn apparently do want to expand the Iraqi War into Syria.

I didn't even want to go into Iraq ab initio- better to switch to Mini-Coopers and Priuses and Insights then to kill innocent people to fuel Hummers and F-150 pick-em-ups.

[Coastie for Truth]

4. What is it with you Texans tonite

Just because Tulsa whipped SMU's butt today.

SMU - where Justice Harriet and Laura and Karen went. ;)

[nerine]

6. Regarding Syria...

I've seen you post over and over, many times in CAPITAL LETTERS, that OIL is the only reason why the US cares about the Middle East. Yet Syria has no oil. On the other hand, it's an Arab state that represents some small impediment to Israeli freedom of action.

Can you expand your theory to explain why the US all of a sudden has a burning interest in Syria's behavior ? Nothing to do with its neighbor, of course...

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Pipelines

It is prime real estate for pipelines and getting oil to the coast. Coastie will explain it better.

Also, I suggest a trip to some Israeli papers, even the right-leaning ones are saying the same thing...war in Syria is a BAD thing for Israel. So, for all those people who bemoan the absolute control that Israel supposedly has over our government, I bet they are hoping that control kicks in, because a destabilized Syria would be disaster for Israel.

[nerine]

8. I'd like to believe this, but is there an Israeli official who says this ?

Perhaps some speech warning the US that pressure applied to Syria will backfire (as you say). What I do find instead is an article in Israel Insider from yesterday titled: Israeli leaders call for regime change in Syria after assassination report.

URL: http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/6879.htm

snip:

Israeli legislator Yuval Steinitz, head of parliament's Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee, called for regime change in Damascus.

Should I be looking at some other newspaper ?

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Yes, I will give you two of the main ones.

There will be a few 'beaters of the war drums' in Israel, as there are here. However, regime change doesn't have to mean thru violence. Recently, the Israeli PM and others have said war with Syria would spill into Israel and was at cross purpose with the peace process.

The two main papers (at least that have English versions...there are a few others) are The Jerusalem Post and Ha'aretz. JPost is more right-leaning, but you can search its site, including past articles. Ha'aretz, which is left-leaning, you can read current articles, but not past ones or use the search function unless you join (I think it is still free). I apologize for not providing links earlier, I thought about it and was going to edit my post to add the links and saw you'd already posted again. Both links I provided are to the English version, but if you can read Hebrew, you can link to the Hebrew version there too.

I will see if I can find the recent ones saying Israel is against military action, but I will be off for an hour or so.

On edit: Ooopps! I forgot...welcome to DU!!!

[nerine]

19. Just spotted your comment about the PM

Can you give me a link (when you get back)...

I would honestly be delighted to agree with Sharon about anything, but especially the folly of dragging Syria into the meatgrinder.

Thank you !

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Here is what I have found...still looking for Sharon's statement.

Israel would also prefer a weakened, isolated Assad to upheavals in Syria.

source

The sources added that senior American officials, in recent conversations with their Israeli counterparts, have expressed interest in Israel's assessments of Assad's possible successors, asking who Israel thought could replace him and still maintain Syria's stability. American officials said that their impression from these conversations was that Israel would prefer to have a weakened Assad, vulnerable to international pressure, remain in power, and is unenthusiastic about the possibility of a regime change in Syria.

(bold and italics are mine)

source

Israel, one way or another, will try to sit quietly by the sidelines and not interfere. At this point, according to common wisdom in Israel, the right thing to do is to simply keep quiet.

source

I am still searching for Sharon's statement. I thought I saved it to my hard drive, but I am not sure (I need to organize..LOL). I'll keep looking.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Your reading is narrow - try haaretz

You asked:

URL: http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/6879.ht...

snip:

Israeli legislator Yuval Steinitz, head of parliament's Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee, called for regime change in Damascus.

Should I be looking at some other newspaper ?

Very narrow slice of opinion to base such a statement on. I would go left and right, haaretz and Jerusalem Post, Israeli and Arab, British and Australian.

Think, analyze, compare, contrast, question.

Only neocons, Pnacers, freepers, and rapturists base an opinion on one source. That's why they're usually wrong. :)

[nerine]

18. OK - here's something from Ha'Aretz

snip:

The United States has asked Israel to keep out of efforts to bring pressure to bear on Syria, and to leave things to Washington's devices.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/634568.html

So the US must publicly ask Israel not to interfere in the delicate process of ... what ? Building a consensus for regime change, I suppose.

In any case, when the head of the Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee calls for regime change, this sounds more authoritative than, for instance, some (unnamed) Australian source (?).

If Aegis is correct, and the government of Israel really does oppose de-stabilization, it should be possible to cite some public statement, rather than suggesting I just look in all directions.

Is it completely impossible that some very highly-placed Israelis would in fact be delighted to see the US take the lead in destroying the Syrian regime ? I believe that the two countries are actually still at war, so it wouldn't surprise me.

[tahoedenver]

13. be careful nerine

I don't want you to fall in the "anti-Semite" bait trap. I'm not saying anybody will accuse you of it but you never know. Often times criticism of Israel is taken improperly as anti-Semitism or as a believe that Israel should not exist. This is factually incorrect.

You also have to distinguish between types of Jewish people. You have "Labor Jews and Israelis" as I call them who want peace and stability in the region and want to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors and who for the most part have all the beans in their jar. And then you have the crazy wacked-out Likudniks who want to redraw the Middle East into an Israeli super-state surrounded by "democratically-elected" puppet governments.(like the neocons are trying to do with Iraq now, but are obviously failing miserably)

Everybody knows that the Syrian government is **probably** behind Hariri's killing in some way. Bush and Co. are just sabre-rattling trying to scare the Syrians into playing our game.

Of course some radical Israeli Likud papers are going to call for regime change in Syria but don't believe everything you hear and/or read and automatically assume that it will become action.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. You are forgetting one group

The "Israel is always wrong - the Palestinians are always right" crowd, tutored in "The Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and adhering to Alison Weir and Paul Findley, and backing draconian divestment and boycott schemes, who have the psychological effect of forcing the "Peace and Labor" crowd into a defensive stance.

Were it not for that "Israel is always wrong - the Palestinians are always right" crowd I would post much further left, and probably participate in "ANSWER" rallies.

[tahoedenver]

34. RE:

Greetings Coastie :)

<["You are forgetting one group:"[br />The "Israel is always wrong - the Palestinians are always right" crowd, tutored in "The Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and adhering to Alison Weir and Paul Findley, and backing draconian divestment and boycott schemes, who have the psychological effect of forcing the "Peace and Labor" crowd into a defensive stance.]]

I am unfamiliar with these people. Please tell me more about them.(Weir and Findley) How have they forced the peace crowd into a defensive stance? The Palestinians are not always right. It's not a conflict, it's a tragedy. Both sides need to get their shit straight and cut the fighting now before more blood is spilled.

<[Were it not for that "Israel is always wrong - the Palestinians are always right" crowd I would post much further left, and probably participate in "ANSWER" rallies.>]

Are they a right wing group? Why are they inhibiting you?

Nothing inhibits my opinion on the topic. I do it as a form of personal penance. I am neither Jewish nor Arab but my people have a part in why the Jews are in the region in the 1st place and I feel a duty to support them and their continued existence and well-being.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. Re; Regarding Syria

1. Welcome to DU.

2. I base my opinion on 30 plus years in various professional capacities in various phases of the alternative, renewable, and green energy industry.

3. I also base my opinion on a complete read of all of the boring documents on the PNAC web site , and on a career in various positions in the alternative, renewable, and green energy industry.

I have also based my opinion on an understanding of petroleum geology and petroleum economics and petro-politics and "Peak Oil"

(With respect to peak oil, here I would refer you to Ken Deffeyes two books, "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" and "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage", David Goodstein's book, "Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil", and Matthew Simmons book "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy". If you really want a scare, try Kunstler's "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century")

(With respect to the politics of petroleum, I would refer you to Engdahl's "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order")

I have also been through Warren McCabe and Julian Smith ("Unit Operations of Chemical Engineering") and R. Byron Bird, Warren E. Stewart, and Edwin N. Lightfoot ("Transport Phenomena") as well as Olaf Hougen's books (and many other books in that genre).

I have also been a US Government petroleum transportation safety regulator.

So I think I know a little bit about the industry.

4. Turning to your question, "Yet Syria has no oil. On the other hand, it's an Arab state that represents some small impediment to Israeli freedom of action. ... ... Can you expand your theory to explain why the US all of a sudden has a burning interest in Syria's behavior ? Nothing to do with its neighbor, of course..."

It's all about hegemony and control - in a very Metternich and Kissinger sense of "hegemony and control."

You argue Syria is a "threat" to Israel. Maybe you are right.

I respond that Syria is a challenge to the PNAC grand plan for Iraq.

To really understand the thinking of these PNAC Neocons, one should understand the thinking of 19th Century military theoreticians who consolidated the German states into the German Nation. One should also read the classic "Machiavelli's The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli, edited by William J. Connell.

It is not good for a Progressive to ignore these writings, especially if you don't want to be blindsided by the PNAC neocons.

Using capitals is the only way to get the attention of the self nominated "Progressives" who think "The Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion" explain everything --- including PNAC.

[nerine]

17. I never said Syria was a threat to Israel !

But I think you're right about the "hegemony" issue.

I would not agree that PNAC's "grand plan" has only to do with Iraq. No less a figure than Ms. C. Rice recently stated that Bush has always wanted to remake the entire Middle East (with a certain small exception, which you know very well). The PNAC "philosophy" was never to be satisfied with Iraq alone. Syria (and Iran, and Saudi Arabia, and perhaps Jordan) will all require aggressive remodeling to suit the US taste. But why ? Japan, for instance, is completely dependent on foreign oil, yet it has no apparent need to overthrow oil-producing regimes.

Perhaps you can tell me why the PNAC folks have such a hard-on for Arabs. Has your reading disclosed this ?

[Coastie for Truth]

20. Did you see the TV Series "Dallas"

or the TV series "The Lone Ranger" - MACHO and some deep seated problems of Bush (Justin Frank, "Bush on the Couch")

[nerine]

21. I also have suspected psychological problems at the heart of our

national policy. But why use the Arab world and the Middle East more broadly as an outlet for our internal demons ? Our own hemisphere used to be sufficient for such compensatory behavior. Something gave us license to de-humanize the inhabitants of the ME. Whatever it was, we're definitely going to regret it !

Good night...

[bemildred]

32. I think the desire to successfully bully someone, anyone, is adequate.

Not that other issues may not be relevant too, but if
you pay attention to the Bushites, they spend all of their
time making threats and ordering people around. Every
once in a while you have to make an example of someone
or the Rubes stop paying attention; and Iran, Venezuela,
N. Korea, and others have been talking back a good deal
and refusing to obey, and the situation in Iraq is the very
opposite of the right thing, so there is a strong desire
to beat someone up just to show that we still can. And
I think that has as much to do with the noise level about
Syria as anything.

[sandrakae]

10. Why is it any of our fucking business?

[Coastie for Truth]

14. Cause our fat butt soccer moms and our beer belly 2nd Amendment

patriots demand the right to drive Hummers (i.e., waste gasoline) down to the 7/11 store.

You know - our 2nd Amendment has been re-amended to protect the right to drive gas guzzlers.

I'm doing my bit for the fat butt soccer moms in gas guzzling Hummers and the beer belly 2nd amendment patriots in gas guzzling red pick up trucks - I've down sized to a Prius that they can easily force off of the road.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

15. Call me skeptical

but the UN investigator basically used reams of hearsay to implicate the Syrian government. I suspect that there probably are some dirty hands in there, I just seriously doubt that the Syrian leaders themselves would do something so stupid as deliberately assassinating the Lebanese President. It all stinks of a set-up to me.

It just seems too convenient that now Condoleezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld are screaming that regime change is a'coming in Syria. We're already managed to get 2,000 US troops killed in Iraq-- how many more are we going to get butchered uselessly on the way to Damascus?

[texpatriot2004]

24. Exactly. I agree with you here. The report is not credible and the

timing is all too convenient.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Let me guess...

If this report had said Israel was responsible, it would have been correct, according to you?

So who is responsible for misleading the UN? Why is this report not credible to you? What proof do you need? Pictures? Drawings of the bomb found in a desk drawer? A phone call to you and a confession from the guilty party with people taking pictures of the confession and having it notarized? What would make this report credible? Would the only thing making it credible be if they found who you suspected was involved?

[texpatriot2004]

28. Re: your Israel comment...NO! That's not what I am saying. The

rest of your rant will have to wait.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

29. No it wouldn't

And your lame desperate little ad hominems do little to support your case either.

I don't have anything in particular against Syria or Israel or any other Middle Eastern country offhand-- no white hats or black hats there. But you apparently have not actually read much into Mehlis's report. Even he does not finger the Assad regime outright, though he does (and I think legitimately so) attach some suspicion to the Syrian regime.

Still, his report relies an awful lot on "this was apparently said" and "this was overheard" types of arguments which would not be admissible in a court of US law. That's why I keep saying-- let the UN Court in the Hague take this on. And FYI, if such a report were directed against Israel, yes I would be reacting the same way, with skepticism. Maybe you might want to try assessing what people actually believe rather than ascribing your own prejudices to them at the outset. For my part, I'd just prefer that Israel be able to live in peace with its neighbors-- I don't think that anybody should be undertaking invasions for land or natural resource grabs in that part of the world (least of all us).

[Behind the Aegis]

30. And you will notice that I was not replying to YOU

I have read the report and it does point to Syria, but it is still implications only. Thus, there are are many things that still need to be sorted out and that is for the World Court to decide.

So, maybe you should check to see who I was actually addressing before launching your own attack. You'll notice, I did post a reply to you asking about Lebanon and didn't mention Israel. Had I intended to ask those questions to you, I would have included you name in the post, but more than likely, posted directly to you.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. What about Lebanon?

They seem to be satisfied with the report.

[TexasLawyer]

33. I have two teenaged kids

so I have a personal stake in all of this.

If Bushco decides to take over the entire Middle East there is sure to be a draft.

[texpatriot2004]

25. Thanks for this list re assassinations in Israel. I think you're right

this is suspicious.

[texpatriot2004]

31. "Mission Accomplicated" ...remember that? I guess so huh. nm