Didn't Ford pardon Nixon before he was convicted?

[still_one]

why couldn't bush pardon libby if that is the case?

[CanOfWhoopAss]

1. He will on the eve of his term's end.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5216306&mesg_id=5216306

[still_one]

4. I think that is probable

a lot of people on DU are saying that no one can be pardoned unless they are convicted, but that was NOT the case with Nixon:

On 9/8/1974 Ford pardoned Nixon of any wrongdoings in the Watergate scandal. The pardon came out less than a month after Nixon resigned.

Here is the official quote:



"It is believed that a trial of Richard Nixon, if it became necessary, could not fairly begin until a year or more has elapsed. In the meantime, the tranquility to which this nation has been restored by the events of recent weeks could be irreparably lost by the prospects of bringing to trial a former President of the United States."

[Solly Mack]

2. Nixon was never convicted of anything

and he was never impeached either....which is why Ford could pardon him. Can't pardon an impeachment - during or after the process...but the articles MUST be in play. So you can be pardoned before impeachment ever begins.

Libby can be pardoned at any time...even after conviction. Libby resigned, he can't be impeached - even if his position could be impeached, that is. There's some debate about that...cabinet level status verses actual cabinet status

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Nixon wasn't even charged, was he?

Didn't Ford pardon him before he was charged?

[Solly Mack]

8. Correct

after Nixon resigned a motion of impeachment was voted on by the House-but only as a symbolic gesture. Tip O'Neil introduced it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Bob Schieffer in his autobiography

credits Ford with doing the right thing when he pardoned Nixon. He says the country needed to heal, to move on. And he says that watching the Clinton impeachment convinced him Ford had done the right thing.

It's really a great book. I would recommend it. This part about Nixon's pardon is the only part of the book that bothered me. But I have to admit, he makes a strong case for Ford doing the right thing.

[Solly Mack]

12. I think Ford did the wrong thing

Lee Hamilton made the same argument about Iran- Contra (with the wholehearted support of Cheney)...that too amp it up to include prosecution (impeachment) of Reagan and Poppy would be bad for the country. I think they should have both been impeached.

I think it would have been good for the country to impeach Nixon and fully expose how corrupt his administration was..


Clinton's impeachment was so bad for the country not because Clinton was impeached, per se...but because of the constant attacks on the executive office and being impeached in such a trumped up manner.

Those going after Clinton caused the harm - not the blow job. The relentless attacks harmed the country. The abuse of power by those in Congress to get Clinton at any cost harmed the country.


Maybe, just maybe, we would not be in this position now if Nixon, Reagan and Poppy had been impeached for their actual crimes.

Just maybe

But that's just my opinion.

[still_one]

15. I am quite undecided on this

you mention nixon, reagean and bush I

what about Johnson? He lied and got us into Viet Nam?

[Solly Mack]

18. And he should have answered for that lie (Tonkin Gulf)

Just as FDR should have answered for "detention camps" of American citizens.

Call me odd...but if it's wrong ,it's wrong regardless of who is in the Whitehouse.


But we were in Vietnam prior to Johnson being President. (with Green Beret "advisors")

Look up the Domino Theory and John Foster Dulles

America's "wars" tend to have interesting beginnings.

[still_one]

21. I don't call you odd I call you consistent, and that is what is missing

today with politicians, knowing the difference between what is right and wrong

As far as Johnson NOT starting the involvement with Viet Nam, that is NOT quite correct.

Yes, Kennedy sent advisors in, but had no intention to expand our involvement. Johnson created the Gulf of Tolken lie which is responsible for 60000 plus dead Americans, plus who knows how many civillians or wounded soldiers

McNamara emphasised this point in the Fog Of War

In fact, they played tapes which emphasised it

Johnson should have been impeached for expanding that conflict based on LIES, same as BUSH

[Solly Mack]

24. I'm not saying Johnson didn't escalate and basically launch the war

with the Tonkin lie...

I'm saying the "politics" of it all goes back before him.

It's those "beginnings" that often direct what happens later(setting the course,so to speak)....by creating an echo chamber and causing a certain way of thinking to be set in stone. It's hard to extract from a bad situation once you've convinced the people it's the "right thing"...and it's hard to stop the echo chamber because it takes on a life of it's own.

And Eisenhower suggested to Kennedy that "we" might need to send in troops - so the "politics" of it all goes back before Kennedy as well.

Fog of War was worth watching...but I have no use for McNamara.

Edit to add:

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me odd. I know my views are not popular (wrong being wrong regardless of who is in office)

I appreciate that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I tend to disagree with Schieffer on this point as well

Clinton's impeachment was a circus and it was centered on his sex life. How many millions of dollars was spent to find out the dirty details of his extra marital affairs?

I think NIxon's misdeeds were much worse and far more worthy of impeachment and criminal charges. I also think if he had been charged, it could very well have been the end of the Republican party as we knew it at that time. They could still be reeling from the effects of the charges against the president. We very well may not be dealing with an idiotic Republican in the WH today. So yes, I think Nixon should have been impeached. :)

[Solly Mack]

26. We could have saved a lot of grief had Nixon been impeached

Maybe...

We'll never know now but I can't help but think some things would have been different for the better.

[Yupster]

29. Hell, Clinton pardoned Mark Rich

while he was still on the run, so a president can pardon anyone, anytime, before he's beeen convicted, before he's ben caught by the police, before he's been even charged.

It's an absolute Constitutional power which in my opinion is too broad.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. There are so many different sides to that Mark Rich story

I don't know what to think of that pardon.

[still_one]

7. thanks,thats what I was trying to say

and you articulated much better than I ever could

A lot of DUers are implying libby can't be pardoned until he is convicted, and that is not true

[Solly Mack]

10. You're welcome.

Well, they're wrong. :)

"... the Framers concluded that pre-conviction pardons might be useful to further national interests "

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons1.htm

and a simple Google on Presidential Pardons will confirm that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Nixon never even went to trial

Ford pardoned him almost immediately after he became president. As I remember, it was one of the first things Ford did once he took office.

[bowens43]

5. NIxon was not even indicted for anything.

[rhett o rick]

9. I like your quote. nt

[OldLeftieLawyer]

13. Nixon was unindicted, which was part of the deal

of his resignation. Ford pardoned him about six weeks after taking office.

"Unindicted co-conspirator," a term that left all us law students running for our criminal law professors, since we'd never heard the term before. Or since.

I never bought that line about pardoning Nixon in order to let the nation "heal." The nation was doing just fine, having hammered Nixon and his thugs, and I still believe that putting a former (and disgraced) President of the United States on trial would have put a picture to the theory that no one in America is above the law. As Bobby Dylan wrote, "Even the President of the United States must stand naked ..... "

That said, let us not forget that Fuckface's father, President Poppy Fuckface, didn't even wait for trial to pardon Cap Weinberger and his buddy thugs in the Iran-Contra matter, Christmas Eve, 1992, after he'd lost to Clinton, but before he left office.

A pardon can come at any time, and if you think Fuckface wouldn't do what Dickless Cheney tells him to do - "It's national security, you asshole, so pardon Scooter RIGHT NOW!" - you're more trusting than I am.

My personal horror right now is that Fuckface pardons Libby, and that effectively hamstrings Fitzgerald from going anywhere else with his investigation.

On the other hand, that might be a really fun show to watch, if Congress took the proper umbrage at such a ham-handed move by Fuckface, and rose up as one united and righteous body.

Yeah. Sure.

[still_one]

16. on your point

"...if congress took the proper umbrage at such a ham-handed move..."

did you take drugs in the 60's?

just kidding

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. Oh, yeah

How do you think I've survived this long? A sane, rational, unsedated LeftieLawyer would have been found dancing naked on top of the Empire State Building ........

Wait.

Never mind.

[still_one]

22. My seniments were definitely with you during that time

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Technically, he probably could but..

what on earth would be accomplished by that? It would be a very risky move.

Even those sorry bastards know that a preemptory pardon of Libby would cause an uproar from all sides that would likely bring them down.

[still_one]

17. you do it before you leave office, under the table

the odds are good that the media will be covering some missing white girl so their attention will be elsewhere

[FloridaPat]

23. I thought Ford did the right thing. The country would have spent years

going through the impeachment and or trials. It would have sucked every particle of energy out of the federal government. At the time I felt he had concern for the country to go forward and not beat a dead horse.

As for Bush1's pardons, I felt the were political and self-serving so that he and Reagan could stay out of jail. I thought they represented a cancer in the government, which has been proven out with the current administration, which is a repeat of the 80's group

[loyalsister]

32. Important differences

"Ford had concern for the country to go forward and not beat a dead horse.

As for Bush1's pardons, I felt the were political and self-serving."

I was not politically aware at the time of either one, but my history lessons have given me the impression that Ford was actually a pretty decent guy who genuinly wanted to do a good job.

On the other hand Bush I was just a little less bad than his son. And, of course no stranger to hanging out with the criminals who could have testified against him.

[jobycom]

25. Bush Daddy pardoned Iran/Contra figures without any indictments

much less convictions. It didn't cause a massive outrage, nor did it substantially harm the Republican Party. It didn't even harm Bush or the people he pardoned.

And these were people who were expected to testify against Reagan and Bush on possible treason charges.

So he can pardon Libby, Rove, Hadley, Cheney, and maybe even himself right now if he wants, and it would likely hamstring any further investigation.

It's possible to still bring charges and indictments against someone who has been pardoned. It would be up to the presiding judge to determine at the trial whether the pardon was valid, and of course that decision could be appealed. But it's unlikely a judge would challenge a pardon, since the Constitution doesn't put any limits on pardons.

Just my observations and research. I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard all of that from lawyers, so take with a grain of salt.

[trof]

27. The text of the Nixon pardon.

I was 33 when this happened. I had avidly watched the Watergate Senate hearings and I was appalled at what the repugs had done. Nixon resigned about 2 jumps ahead of the impeachment proceedings. I still think he got off too lightly. In my opinion, if he had been tried and convicted, it would have been merely the orderly course of the law and no "constitutional crisis".

Also notice Ford's "blanket" pardon for anything Nixon had done or might have done. A gold plated get-out-of-jail-free card.

Ford's statement:

"My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I, as President, have the constitutional power to firmly shut and seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my duty, not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility but to use every means that I have to insure it. I do believe that the buck stops here, that I cannot rely upon public opinion polls to tell me what is right. I do believe that right makes might and that if I am wrong, 10 angels swearing I was right would make no difference. I do believe, with all my heart and mind and spirit, that I, not as President but as a humble servant of God, will receive justice without mercy if I fail to show mercy.

Finally, I feel that Richard Nixon and his loved ones have suffered enough and will continue to suffer, no matter what I do, no matter what we, as a great and good nation, can do together to make his goal of peace come true.

Now, therefore, I, Gerald R. Ford, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from July (January) 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this eighth day of September, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and seventy-four, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and ninety-ninth."
http://www.watergate.info/ford/pardon.shtml

[Jose Diablo]

33. That Ford, he was something

Here was a guy from the most conservative part of Michigan, western, Amway country. He was hip deep in the JFK assassination investigation (which didn't find diddly squat), then he steps into the presidents job (unelected) what was it, 6-7 years later and the first thing he does right out of the gate with Nixon, Ford gives Nixon a pardon.

Ford was the fixer-upper for those crooks. Something was rotten with that deal.

Edit: Only in America.

[madokie]

28. At the point that it will be in * favor he will.

I'm sure they have a plan and at this point they think they will all go down together. You know, hang tight. The problem here is the prosecutor won't roll over for them. They're mistake is they thought he would.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

31. Some oral history

Selections cover Mr. Becker's work as a legal counsel to President Gerald Ford from the Vice Presidential confirmation hearing to the 1976 election, including the Nixon pardon negotiations. Concludes with Mr. Becker's role as Defense Counsel in Dean v. St. Martin's.

http://www.nixonera.com/library/becker.asp

Lecture delivered at the University of South Florida, Mr. Becker speaks on his role in both negotiating the pardon of President Richard Nixon and retaining government ownership of the Nixon presidential papers and tapes.

http://www.nixonera.com/library/pardon.asp

(note - this is from the website of the authors of "Silent Coup", whom I disagree with in many respects)