Chime in here regarding the creeping theocracy in America

[Stinky The Clown]

We all know its out there, creeping along to take over all of America.

Theocracy.

We have ways to stop incidents that cross the line. The prayer groups on public time can be stopped with help from the law and the ACLU. Dover just threw out their Intelligent Design school board. Lots of incidents.

But the theocrats just keep on keepin' on.

They will settle for nothing less than what the Taliban had in Afghantistan.

And they're patient.

And they're determined.

And they're single minded.

We can vote in people who would stop them ... for now.

But how do we change the underlying fanatacism?

These people are truly dangerous to democracy, dangerous to our country, dangerous to our way of life.

Do we vilify them? Do we argue with them? Do we reason with them? Do we arrest and detain them?

The problem is .... the hearts and minds.

How can they be truly stopped? Not slowed down.

Stopped.

Chime in with any ideas you have.

[serryjw]

1. I think Dover is a perfect example

75% of American DO NOT want a Christian Theocracy, even if they are religious. We have the majority, it will never be 100%

[Nitrogenica]

2. Point out the flaws with this..

http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5720160.html

"David Barton of the Texas-based group Wallbuilders said the Bible condemns not only homosexuality but also capital-gains taxes, progressive income taxes, estate taxes and minimum-wage laws."

Does the bible really say that? Is the bible really anti-gay or has it just been interpreted that way?

How important is gay marriage in comparison to the original intent of the bible?

[DIKB]

4. Remember

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's . . ."

Sounds to me like Christ said to PAY taxes.

Also
"From those to whom much has been given, much will be asked. . ."

So much for tax cuts for the rich, that's anti-christian, lol.

[LaurenG]

3. They are stopping themselves

Somehow they have realized how unreasonable it is to try and force a single dogma down the throats of the entire population. "One size fits all" religion and beliefs don't work. The culture of corruption has realized they live in glass houses and it won't work anymore.

[NorCalDem]

5. I think the creep is subsiding

look no further than Dover, PA, the election of Democratic Party gubernatorial candidates, etc.

I think people are gradually coming to their senses. It may all end up being too little to late, but I think the tide has really turned. We certainly haven't fixed the damage from the storm (both literally and figuratively) we're starting to make some headway. Just look at Bush's approval ratings.

Unfortunately, most people still haven't realized the really serious problems facing our economy (i.e. greedy corporations, globalization, unemployment, seperation of wealth, out-sourcing, I could go on forever). They're waking up to Bush's fake-Christian-ness (for lack of a better term) and his sheer incompetence, but they're haven't figured out that his team of corpocrats are the real threat, and by this point they've bought and/or sold off almost everything of value in this country. I fear it will truly be, to little to late. :(

[Quakerfriend]

8. It's never to late!

The Christian Right will eat itself alive.

There are many among them who are TRUE Christians. We must get them focused on the WRONGS done to all Americans by, as you say, this "team of corpocrats"!!

[Stinky The Clown]

20. In my view, bush isn't even a factor in the equation

He coopted them and they used him. It was a symbiotic walk to hell. But with or without bush, the theocratists still want what they want and, so far, seem willing to stop at nothing to get it.

[Webster Green]

6. Historically, lions work pretty well...

A little messy, but still....

[MuseRider]

19. I hate that I

am laughing at that but I am. :spray:

[MuseRider]

7. I have no idea,

no fucking clue but I will watch this thread because I could certainly use some good ideas.

Kansas, we now have to change our science standards because of them. Will they get voted out next year? It happened before but that was then, they are much stronger now. We need ideas.

Kansas, we have passed the No Gays Marry amendment. We have the Talibornagins trying to stop gays from adoption. We have them trying to fight our Supreme Court to make one penalty for gays and one for heteros, guess which one has a longer sentence?

You can't talk to them, they hide any brain they might have in bible verse and will not discuss but only preach. Where are their hearts? You guess is as good as mine.

We are working hard on it but you can only get so far. We have to get that far before they manage to sway more people away from their critical thinking skills and their humanity.

[donco6]

12. I'm hoping things are turning around a bit here in CO.

With the passing of initiative C in support of the state govt and crushing the antitax whackos, I'm hoping this is a signal that people are getting sick of all the RW types - Christian or otherwise.

[MuseRider]

15. I forgot about that

thankfully you will be done with it, it is starting here. TABOR has been making the rounds and roundly lying in every paper to sell itself to the populace here who would sell their own children if it meant not paying more taxes.

[rzemanfl]

9. Wait them out. In this country the children of religious fanatics

seldom (not never, but seldom) become religious fanatics themselves- unless they are on the money end of the deal like the Grahams. These people are selling snake oil. No one has ever come back from Christian heaven, or any religion's for that matter, with a road map, weather report or glossy brochure. Relgion is the only business in the World that has been around for centuries without every producing a tangible result of what it sells (salvation) or even a testimonial from a satified customer. The rapture people will die out like the raptors did.

On edit (I mean the dinosaur raptors, not the birds).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. Don't panic

In my opinion (and I live in the lower Bible belt) the worst is over. This latest Pat Robertson thing is making a lot of people think twice about just where their allegience lies. I know a lot of fundies through work and none of them want a Taliban-like existence. They believe in freedom of religion and our Bill of Rights.

Very very few Christians, even fundamentalists, buy the God of Terror and Retribution meme anymore.

Now, how do we change them? We can't change the extremists. And definitely not arguing or arresting (unless they break the law)or vilifying them. In my opinion we stop them by winning over their moderate brethren. We stop them by behaving in a sensible, compassionate manner and teaching through our example. We stop them by respecting them. We don't make fun of them when we protest. Our protests should be aimed at policies and not at them. And we stop them by talking with them and asking questions and listening to their answers. People want to be listened to, to be heard. That comes first. Listen first.

[rzemanfl]

13. Nice sentiments, but I cannot listen to people who think Adam

and Eve rode dinosaurs to Church.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. LOL

but my point is that while those cretins exist, there aren't all that many of them!

[democrank]

11. I really don`t get it....

all this chatter about religion. Turn on any cable station and wait a few minutes. You`ll probably hear someone talking about how much they love God and why we must allow torture. Or...how they excel in the morals department and why we should be able to execute juveniles.
Or...how they follow Jesus` teachings but feel the unemployed guy next door with the four kids and the wife with cancer ought to get off his butt and get three jobs instead of two.

We`d all be better off if religious beliefs were a personal and private thing. I believe no concrete conclusions can be drawn because a person attends church or doesn`t attend.

[rzemanfl]

14. I'll give you one concrete conclusion, you can conclude that I

never have plans for Sunday morning that aren't flexible.

[The2ndWheel]

16. And very well funded

Don't forget very well funded.

But you don't stop them. Power never stops. Be it religious, economic, or political power; it never stops. Sure, we have a piece of paper that talks about rights, and this and that, but corporations are consider human beings, are they not? That ruling came down a century after that document was written.

You don't stop them. It will never stop. The movement may die down a bit, or it may not. But it will always be there. Like you pointed out, it's under the surface at all times.

If human history tells us anything, it's that the same fights come up again and again. The same problems are always with us. Yeah, we "fix" a problem every now and then, but it never goes away.

Why do they say that democracy requires eternal vigilance? The people who wrote that document weren't supermen. They were normal people who simply understood power. Hell, they participated in the power game(both corporate and state). The theocratic element of society was there in 1776, it's here today, and it will be there 200 years from now.

[Ilsa]

17. My neighbors are deeply spiritual people.

They attend church regularly, usually a megachurch. Their kids go to public schools and they DO NOT want religion mixed with school. They realize that an academic class on the bible will turn into someone's idea of a devotional class, and they refuse to abdicate their responsibility to the school district.

I've heard others express similar sentiments. Maybe some people realize that white male christians aren't the only ones in charge any more, and they recognize that a theocracy could end up being determined by whomever is in certain public jobs.

Even Cokie and George and George and Sam were "thumbsdown" on the ID subject this week.

[punpirate]

18. Any suggestion that they be legally repressed...

... sort of flies in the face of Constitutional freedom of religion. That's the sort of trade-off one has with the First Amendment.

But, the one word that doesn't sit well with the average American is "cult." It brings up some rather perverse visions for most people. For that reason, I think it's worth describing them accurately--as cultists.

The other thing that has always worked to minimize the self-importance of cult figures is ridicule, especially that which originates in exposure. Keeping them in the public eye, negatively, is necessary, as is exposing their various frauds. In that vein, I think the Abramoff scandal is going to turn a few heads, now that Ralph Reed is involved. As time goes by, a lot of those very, very Xtian people will eventually see the degree of cynical corruption in the people they've most admired.

There's always the chance that such people will turn to another charismatic figure, but, because they have invested themselves so deeply in their leaders, when the leaders are exposed, the paucity of their own character is also exposed.

I don't think the country will ever be completely rid of them--precisely because of that Constitutionally-mandated freedom of religion--but, there are ways to get them to crawl back into the woodwork. One of those is exposing their leaders.

[Raffi Ella]

21. One thing I don't get is

Why the media merge religion and politics.Separation of church and state is fundamental in America.Yet the media have us so desensitized to hearing preachers and the like talk about God and religion regarding politics that we too have become apathetic to it.

We hear it but we aren't outraged.We should be outraged!Separation of church and state is one of our great freedoms.We are slowly losing it and even though we are now beginning to see the tide of extremists/evangelicals go off the deep end and do themselves in WE as a Democratic nation need to be outraged when we see separation of church and state being violated!

Call your local news media sources.Email the MSM and tell them NO MORE merging politics and religion!!This is America for Christs sake!A Democracy!NOT a theocracy!Quit desecrating our constitution by blurring the line of separation and church and state!!

If the media gives them a platform in regards to politics then the Media is WRONG.Tell them so!

[Stinky The Clown]

23. "We hear it but we aren't outraged."

Actually, many of us **are** outraged.

The media is the root of many of our problems in the America (and the world, for that matter) today.

The media serves to give voice to those who would have us dead or exiled.

Media change is truly job number one. There is no job more in need of doing than breaking up the corporate media and making it once again honest, fair and truly independent.

[frogmarch]

22. Well, something needs to be done

that's for sure. Let's try to reason with them.

:D Well, what do you know, here's a fundy now:

Praise the Lord God Almighty HOLY HOLY HOLY is the LORD!!!! PURE!!!! GOD IS PURE!!!! ABSOLUTELY PURE!!!!!!!!! HE WILL BLOW YOU MIND IF YOU LET HIM !!!!!! IT IS BETTER THAN ANY DRUG OR SEX THIS WORLD OFFERS. AND I'M NOT SPEAKING FROM LACK OF EXPERIENCE EITHER. I'm now SELIBATE THOUGH
TALK ABOUT POWER PURE RAW POWER TERRORIZING POWER

and another:

i have concrete proof of God and his son Jesus i swear this is no joke i have shown all sorts of people from doctors-lawers-judges and average people on the street.the responses i get are fear,excitement,shock,joy and amazement. but never denial.

Um, never mind. Forget trying to reason with them. Did someone say something about lions?

The fundy quotes and others can be found at
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/cre_is_not_the_alt_to_evo.htm

[geckosfeet]

24. There will always be extremists. But - the separation between

church and state must be enforced equally for those speaking for issues of the day as those speaking against issues of the day.

Politicians who make religious comments during public speeches should be punished or reprimanded. There should be some legislation that limits their use of religious speech. If they are in a church, Ok. If they are making a national appeal for war, NO! Or if they are campaigning trying to drum up votes - NO! It's disgusting pandering.

Legislation to prevent religion in political speech.

Legislation to protect the rights of non-religious and atheist peoples as well as people of other religious persuasions. Allowing the Xian right to impose their religious views and philosophies across the country is wrong and should be illegal.

* and his bastard government have pandered to these people for votes - in return he has propped up extremist judges and politicians. This should be considered a lobbying effort and should be illegal.

Not all lobbyists are asking for or handing out cash. Power brokering for votes is lobbying and should be illegal.