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Do you ever leave your country...even when it has gone mad?

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:23 AM
Original message
Do you ever leave your country...even when it has gone mad?
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 02:35 AM by Dunvegan
I ask...I don't believe it is time yet...I will probably never believe it is time...but the question is: If your country goes mad, when do you know it IS time to leave?

Here is why I ask...this question has haunted me since I was very, very young.

When I was a child my caretaker was a woman who lived in Berlin before the war and came to the US in the early 1960's. Occassionally she would talk about Nazi Germany, back when very few Germans (even ex-patriots) would mention those days. Of course, she was a German woman who moved to the United States in the '60's and married a Black engineer, so she was extraordinary in many ways politically.

I was also a child that liked indulging in adult converstion. Charlotte always conversed with me is this manner.

She said that the average German was demoralized and the economy was somewhat depressed after WWI.

Upon Hitler's rise to power, at first most people just thought that they needed to recover after their defeat in WWI, re-establish the industrial base and revitalize the economy.

The Nazi Party at first preached a renewed belief in Germany as being able to take it's place as a first-world nation once again. It lifted the spirits of a post-war Germany. It struck a cord. First with the most marginalized of society, but eventually most of the average citizenry came together to implement this renaissance.

I remember she said that slowly many of the common folk in Berlin lost all feeling for what may have been behind Hitler’s cult of personality, and began to cheer on the conquest of one European country after another without any conscience as to the morality of the adventurism, without any feeling that the enemy was human.

That even German Jews and German left-wing party members, and German homosexuals were also considered non-human.

It was then that she made a decision.

She left Berlin and married a sculptor. She moved with him to a remote aerie in the mountains of Austria for the duration of the war.

Charlotte had saved from that bleak time a collection of figures hand-carved by her Austrian husband: an example of the most amazing wood crèche sculptures I have ever seen.

Each Christmas she would decorate her entire living room with the willowy congregation, all of hand-waxed cherry wood.

I still remember them vividly: over thirty extraordinary individual sculptures, each with its own personality. They were El Greco-esque. The wise men were at least a foot and a half tall, but only a few inches wide. So hauntingly thin and poignantly forlorn...eyes looking off in the middle distance for something, perhaps some semblance of sensibility, forever seeking their infant Savior.

After the war, she returned to Berlin. She told me that the suffering of the enemies of the Fatherland that her countrymen were so callous about was the same abject suffering she and other Germans themselves now endured in a decimated capital city...a great First World capital that had set out to, in it's Fuhrer's Reich, rule the entire world for a thousand years.

To create a sort of "New Reichland Century x 10."

She told me this story one morning while making breakfast and coffee and explaining the origin of the word "ersatz"...as in "ersatz coffee."

I was eating my toast and carefully avoiding the slightly burned crust. Charlotte watched for a moment, then sat down next to me with her cup of coffee.

She said to me, "Do you know this German word 'ersatz?'

"After the war in Berlin, we had to beg. All of us. We dug in the ashes...we lived in pieces of houses. My clothing was rags. There was precious nothing to eat. Little water. No doctors. For years.

"If we could get anything, we used every part of it, everything...if we could get a potato, we would save the potato peel. Then we roasted them, and when dry, we crumbled the peels into powder which we mixed with boiled water for something hot to drink in the morning.

"That was what we called 'ersatz' coffee...that was coffee to us after the war was over.

"When the Americans came they were a blessing. Everyone tried to get to the part of Berlin where the Americans and the English were, we were afraid of the Russians because they were cruel and took revenge.

"I always remembered the soldiers of America and how they freed the Jews and left no doubt about the truth of the camps.

"The Americans cared for us, even though we were their enemies. That I why I finally came to America.

"Now, go on...eat your toast, and think…and try not to waste the crust."

Sometimes the "enemy" are just citizens...citizens...just like us.

I'm a fighter, I love my country, I love the Constitution, and have been politically active since I was a teenager, which adds up to 35+ years of activism.

However, in the back of my mind, there is something I cannot shake, and had not thought much about since I was a pre-teen.

When I was a child I wondered, even obsessed, about two things:

1. If I were in the situation the non-Nazi Germans and the German Jews were in, prior to Kristallnacht, or beyond...would I know to leave...like Charlotte?

2. Or, like many, many others in Berlin, would I stay and say, “It cannot be that bad. How far would they REALLY go? We are not savages...we are a great country, with a great heritage. This will pass before it becomes madness.”

Would I say, "I'm a citizen, I was born here, just like anyone else...what would they possibly do to me? I can speak out, this is foolish. They are made up of the bullies and cultist worshipers of the government, the fringes of society. How far could they possibly go?

"We can make them stop...at some point, surely at some point...they have to listen to reason!"

...and stay too long?

Edited for syntax.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. By the time it gets bad enough here for people to think they ought
to leave...they won't be able to leave.

I haven't thought about it my whole life, however in the last year I have thought about it...and in the last 3 months I have thought about it alot.

I don't know if I could ever abandon America though - that's something I cannot reconcile so far.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. And BTW America has gone mad, this country has lost its ever-
lovin' mind...as of late, it seems to be snapping out of it, slowly.
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spancks Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. When it becomes clear that America is no longer America....
...then it is time to go. This latest b.s. with the repugs' stripping the Gitmo prisoners of their rights is starting to make me think seriously about what happened in Germany.

I'm just happy I live close to Canada. I can walk there if I have to, but I will stay and fight (non-violently) until they force me out.

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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Complicating matters...
...my husband was born in Canada, and holds dual-citizenship.

Sometimes I look over at him and ask, "What is this like for you? Is it like leaving Switzerland and moving to 1941 Germany?"

But I'm a fighter, and see participating in non-violent civil disobediance until the bitter end.

The only thing that haunts me is that a first-world nation about 50 years ago went so mad, that by the time millions of it's citizens were already consigned to death, it was too late to leave.

They had homes, families, the language...they were citizens. And they stayed.

Because they just couldn't believe it could ever, ever become so insane.

I've always wondered, if I were in Germany in 1941...would I know to walk away from everything (as a very few did.)

I don't think we're anywhere near there...but, I've always wondered.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. I was in Berlin last year
and there is a private museum/exhibition called the "Story of Berlin". Among the things that has haunted me from the trip, is a quote that went something like "by the time we knew things had gone terribly wrong, it was too late" -- this was placed in the context of talking about how the media was controlled within Germany.

One of the things I love about going to Canada is escaping from American media. I don't watch Fox News, Limbaugh, etc. but it is very difficult to have a conversation about politics in this country without someone quoting the propaganda. Many of my left-of-center friends and family are obsessed with the media here. They keep watching cable news and asking 'when will the media do it's job?' But when you leave the country, you can see just what job the MSM of the USA is doing. It is a kind of mass hypnosis -- as if the entire country is being kept in a state of mass "Stockholm Syndrome".

Short of moving to Canada, I would be much happier here if I could just get my news from the CBC.

Story of Berlin website (cube rats: there is sound on this website):
http://www.story-of-berlin.de/flash.html
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. I would leave if I could afford it
Canada, Finland, Australia, the list of places that seem to have their heads on straight--straighter than ours at the moment, anyway--is growing longer and more compelling by the day.
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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Before everything, I am a human being born on this planet.
When things come down to it, I don't give a damn about these imaginery borders and such we've created. They only continue to strengthen our division anyhow. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the people don't want to look at it this way, so we're stuck trying to find the place we can enjoy living most. The thing that comes to mind the most though is: if only it were as easy as just getting up and going.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'm encouraged right now. American seems to be coming to her senses.
:popcorn:
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. It would be best for those closest to source of the problem
to stay and fight.

think about how much better it would have been if those closest to the problem in Germany had managed to stop it there.

but be watchful. Sometimes it's worth dying in a good cause, when you have no more productive option; but sometimes it's better to live to fight from another place or time.

when you get to the point where you feel your ability to survive may be in jeopardy, go.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. The land of the free doesn't allow you to be a dual citizen
I was shocked to learn that. What are we afraid of? We allow the exploitation and illegal immigration of cheap laborers for businesses into the country, afterall.
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arachide Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. sure it does....
a lot of people with grandparents born in Ireland are holders of both Irish and US passports. Of course, if you move to Ireland (or any place else) you still have to file US tax returns....
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Well,what's this?
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by
marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen
may not lose the citizenship of the country of
birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or
require a person to choose one citizenship or another.
Also, a person who is automatically granted another
citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.

However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship
by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order
to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the
person must apply for the foreign citizenship
voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to
give up U.S. citizenship.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. They changed that law years ago. I have dual citizenship myself --
US and Canada.
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holboz Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Dual citizens expected to travel to/from US on US passports
My husband is British and we planned to get a US and a British passport for our daughter. We thought it would be easier for travelling to/from the UK. But apparently if she travels between the 2 countries on a British passport it might prompt the US government to question her US citizenship status. This was the info we received from the British consulate regarding dual citizenship:

The US authorities expect dual citizens to travel out of and into United States territory only on US passports. British citizens who are also US citizens are therefore advised to consult the US State Department (or if overseas a US Consul) before taking any action which might be regarded as inconsistent with their status as US citizens.
<snip>
It is considered advisable for parents not to take any steps which may be regarded under U.S. legislation, to be an act conducive to loss of U.S. citizenship. Therefore, it is recommended that parents of British children born in the United States obtain U.S. passports for their children. This will avoid raising doubts about their status as U.S. citizens, and at the same time, after visits abroad, ensure returnability to the United States. For further information contact the U.S. State Department


http://www.britainusa.com/sections/articles_show_nt1.asp?d=1&i=41001&L1=10080&L2=41001&a=25317

But my husband and I are going to get a British passport for her anyway, just for the peace of mind. If things get uglier over here then I expect my husband to take her someplace safer, whether it's the UK or somewhere in the EU.
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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. For US citizens acquiring UK citizenship by birth...
... a birth certificate is all that is necessary. A consular birth certificate is the paper trail that will lead the claim to British citizenship.

This means for my wife (American), me (British & US Perm Res), and my son (American and British) that we travel as Americans - fortunately the airports treat me as American citizens when coming in (I just have an extra card to show in addition to my passport). However on one occasion we were in a long line at Gatwick Airport, and the person managing the rear of the queue ushered us through the blue lane - we were treated as Brits for once :)

If the worst was to come, we would go to the UK and sort it out with the Immigration and Nationality Directorate once we were there for my wife - and apply for a passport for my son. However, I think the worst will be over in the next 2-3 years and we'll have our New Labour moment here, when Democrats will have a stonking big mandate that it wouldn't matter how many Republicans fillibustered, the Democratic majority would be huge. People will see the Republicans for being as corrupt as they are and full of scandal, sleaze and lies.

Mark.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. But I looked this up just months ago
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by
marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen
may not lose the citizenship of the country of
birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or
require a person to choose one citizenship or another.
Also, a person who is automatically granted another
citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.

However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship
by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order
to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the
person must apply for the foreign citizenship
voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to
give up U.S. citizenship.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'm not sure...
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 03:41 AM by Mr_Jefferson_24
...how to know when it's time to leave, but I do firmly believe that things will get worse before they get better, and I also think they can turn very bad very fast. One more 9/11, an outbreak of avian flu, a few more hurricanes---we're vulnerable and BushCo knows it. They're looking for a pretext to invoke martial law. I suspect we will reach a point where a citizen may be permitted to leave but not to take anything more than the shirt on his/her back.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Poignant and thoughtful memoir, that...
I grew up with very similar thoughts, thanks to what I read as a child and thanks to my mother's belief that those who forget or don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Many things were an occasion for her to talk about the lessons of WW II, most especially the bigotry and persecution part. Just a few:
• Our Austrian neighbor in So Cal, who spent her teen years in a French concentration camp, because by the time her family got to France after fleeing Vienna, they were considered enemy aliens. They were Lutheran; I think their grandma was Jewish, and that put their lives in peril from the Nazis. Our neighbor and her family didn't know if her father was dead or alive until they met him on the boat to the US after the war.
• My Irish-American parents' own post-war experience as young marrieds living in a trailer-park with many Japanese-Americans just starting out after their own internment by the US government. (Supposedly I was conceived in that trailer;-))
• The friend of a neighbor of ours in Hawaii who had been imprisoned by the Japanese in the Philippines; she had kept a diary of sorts on scraps of paper like the labels off tin cans. I think our neighbor lady was transcribing all of this for her because she couldn't bear to do it herself.
• Mom told me about a boy in her high school in Colorado, a Jewish refugee who wept when he described mass book-burnings ordered by the Nazis and enthusiastically carried out by ordinary people. In our own family, the very idea of burning books seemed utterly depraved.

There were books written for kids about brave children in occupied European countries, and how they helped their parents resist the Nazi occupiers. I found and read a number of these in my elementary school library, and they always made me imagine I could be resourceful and brave too.

••• When I asked my mother if she thought our country could ever be taken over by a totalitarian regime like the USSR or the Nazis, she said a very curious thing: The US would not be conquered, but under the right circumstances would VOTE such a regime in. •••

I never really thought it would happen here, as the US is so vast and stable, and our history has been one of many mistakes made but also many injustices rectified. However, when Patriot Act 2 was exposed on Bill Moyers' program NOW, I got a cold feeling in the pit of my stomach that just won't totally go away. It was the first time in my entire life I ever imagined I might need a back door out of my own country -- and I don't know if an exit will exist, either.

Everything I know is here and my roots go very deep, but since that dark night, I've fluctuated as so many other DUers have done. In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq I kept encountering elderly Europeans, including my mother-in-law, who were getting very bad flashbacks indeed due to the drumbeat of propaganda.

••• But there is one thing that is very clear to me: The United States is in deep trouble, and it's a stinking mess. Who do we imagine will clean up this mess if not ourselves? •••

We love our country for what it always stood for and for its potential for greatness still. We are not alone, either. Not everyone is as emotional about the situation as DUers are, but at least half the country voted against Bush, both times. It is a stinking, perilous mess, but it looks as though large numbers of our fellow citizens are finally waking up.

We have a *load of work to do, and we must be as resourceful and brave as we imagined we could be when we were young kids. On good days, and even on mediocre days, I think we can pull it off. Because if we don't, who will?

Hekate
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'd be too scared to actually go
but this last year I have entertained the fantasy. I think about Holland or Belize. I've never been abroad. I don't think i could just move without going over to look first. I don't think i would want to actually give up my citizenship. I have always loved my country. I have always been proud that we have that higher standard of Justice for all, being considered innocent until proven guilty, having a constitution that provided inalienable rights, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I was glad that our government had safeguards to keep it from being used as a tool against the individual rather than an instrument of the people. I am more afraid of what our executive branch, legislative body, and supreme court have turned into, than moving to Europe. All the things i loved have been corrupted and damaged. And the ickiest thing about it is most people don't want to know, they don't care if torture goes on as long as they believe it makes them safer. They don't care if we melted Faluja with white phosphorus and napalm as long as it's godless terrorists they are melting. It's ugly.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. Charlotte sounds like an interesting and smart person
I have thought/am thinking about leaving. I'm always surprised when in this nation of mostly immigrants, people are flamed for considering the option of leaving this country.

I am afraid of the dominionist theocrats-- but I don't think they are really in charge yet.





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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Quite true, sad_one...Charlotte was something else...
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 12:20 PM by Dunvegan
...or as she liked to be addressed informally, Lotte. She truly was an extraordinary person.

When young she was the top girl on the human pyramid in the Zirkus Busch...until a fall injured her back badly.

After that, Lotte learned dressmaking in Paris...She learned her English when on tour and when she spent time in London on her own.

Post-circus, her first marriage was to a beergarden owner in Berlin.

She overheard a lot of truly disturbing stuff mingling with the patrons in a Berlin beergarden on their run-up to war.

Her advice to me, for when I grow up and need to host a cocktail party was this:

"Butter. I used to have this in the apartments above the beergarden before going down to drink with the customers, as was custom. A quarter stick on a thick piece of bread and some discreet sipping, and you'll stay sober all night."

She was an independent thinker. An amazing person, indeed.

A little about the Zirkus Busch:

"Zirkus Busch, Monbijouplatz


http://bdaugherty.tripod.com/berlin/placespast.html

Paul Busch opened his circus in 1895 in the Bahnhof Börse in Berlin. The First World War produced a severe setback, with animals being confiscated and the poor economic conditions prevailing.

In November 1918, the Zirkus was the meeting place for an assembly of delegates of the new Räter (Soviets).

In the twenties had competition from the new cinemas, varieties and cabarets. Paula Busch, Paul's daughter attempted to keep the circus going. In 1937, the building itself become victim to Speer's plans for Berlin and was demolished. The circus itself kept going by taking over the Jewish-run Zirkus Straßburger, and traveling thru Deutschland. At the end of the war, they returned to Berlin and in 1946 performed in the open air in the Zoologischen Garten"

Edited because I'm a self-policing spelling hall monitor.
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DarleenMB Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. I've thought about it a lot
over the last 25 years. It started with Reagan. We live in Wyoming and I said then (as I do now) I'm glad we're close enough to Canada if we have to make a run for it.

However, in the last couple of weeks I have begun to feel we've begun to see a turnaround of sorts. The dropping polls, the trugh coming out about the WH connection to the outing of Plame, the media appearing to wake up and do its job ... maybe I'm dreaming. I don't know. But I feel a sort of hope beginning to stir. Hope our country is finally rousing itself to take back control from these idiot criminals.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Hi DarleenMB!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. I left my country
South Africa - to come here. It was the hardest thing I ever did, and now I wonder if I should have gone elsewhere.
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
17. for me, it's when I feel I'm really, seriously, not safe
It's getting that way...and if the Dems don't make significant gains in '06, regardless of the reason...I'll be looking at leaving.

It will prove to me that the Repubs are going to cling to power, and there's not enough worth staying for...I'll probably look for a job in Canada, primarily, but also other options.

I hope it doesn't come to that.
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
21. The heterosexist theocratic bigotry has me close to leaving.
Before the Nazis started killing people, they passed laws defining them out of society. That is what is going on with all of these "marriage protection" amendments. If by some horrible turn of events, the federal marriage amendment passes and seems headed towards ratification, it will be time for GLBT to flee for our own survival. I probably would have gone already if not for my very old and infirm grandparents. Canada looks better every day.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. You don't leave it, you take it BACK
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. True. I want my country back. nm
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. Everyone, this says you lose US citizenship if you take dual citizenship
{Is this valid? It's about 2 months old}



http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.h...

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by
marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen
may not lose the citizenship of the country of
birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or
require a person to choose one citizenship or another.
Also, a person who is automatically granted another
citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.

However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship
by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order
to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the
person must apply for the foreign citizenship
voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to
give up U.S. citizenship.

NO LIBERAL TV NEWS, NO JUSTICE,NO PE
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Well, regarding "dual-citizenship"...which is a bit of a misnomer...
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 11:22 PM by Dunvegan
What you do is obtain your US citizenship, live, and pay taxes, and travel as a US citizen, but not denounce citizenship in your country of birth.

Not that it is at all fair, but I think that Canadians are given more latitude (entirely unofficially) in this respect.

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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
29. might want to, but too poor
Also, by some definitions, I am already living in a foreign country- California. Hubby is rather unfortunately in dialysis, so running away is not possible for him. My choices would be Germany or Belgium.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Sorry for that,
Have you looked into, say, Thailand? They have great hospitals and medical is cheap even at foreigner prices. Anyway. Guarding his health is prime and I wish you both the best.
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Jamison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
31. I'm too poor too.
Only the very wealthy would ever be able to leave if things got really bad here. It almost seems as if that was part of the PNAC agenda...cause so much poverty so that no one will be able to escape corporate slavery.
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