I think personal attacks against Bush is unproductive

[ProudToBeLiberal]

I see many people here calling him, Dumb, Idiot, Moron, Bastard, Ass, and etc. I thought name calling was left behind in the 4th grade? "Hey 4 eyes," "Hey Fattie," "Hey small eyes." Uh huh I bet you remember.

I think instead of attacking him personally we should attack his policies. I don't know Bush personally, but I do know how his policies are affecting people and being detrimental to society.

I don't think we should stoop down to the level of Republicans. They call us "cowards," "loonies," and etc, but we know better than to play with them in the mud stoops.

Now I'm all for mudslinging, if it's against their policies.

[Wetzelbill]

1. they can be fun though

:)

Juvenile. I know.

They have policies? Damn, maybe I should pay attention. :)

[Cha]

9. That's just it..they don't have

"policies"..so we're left with calling out the idiots who try and smear our truth calling politicos.

[autorank]

2. Is calling him a "Schmidt" Head OK?

:shrug:

[ProudToBeLiberal]

3. lol nt

[autorank]

174. "Proud" I'll take that "lol" as a yes;) n/t

In general, I agree with you actually. Just having some fun. I must have "Lounge fever."

But derisive but humorous is OK. Phew!

[Wetzelbill]

15. scared Schmidtless

:)

[autorank]

175. OMG, the author of this "PUN" ditry is striking a match in a no Schmidting

area.

:scared:

[Wetzelbill]

192. it just might be my greatest legacy

:)

[snowbear]

4. I think it's INCREDIBLY PRODUCTIVE...

..Because it's a release.

For God's sakes, look at the man we're talking about.

A release -- that's all it is.

And he deserves it.

[IndianaGreen]

5. The fundies see Bush as a god, the new vicar of Christ on Earth

All false idols must be destroyed, and that includes Bush.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

6. why can't you release against his policies?

For example if you're against the Iraq War, like most of us here you could go to protest rallies for RELEASE. There you're protesting his policies.

[snowbear]

13. His policies..

... 2,094 troops as of today.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

I do protest his policies PTBL.. And I hate the LYING DIRTBAG.

[WinkyDink]

86. Because his POLICIES reflect directly his PERSONAL VALUES!

HIS GREED IS PERSONAL.
HIS SICK QUEST FOR POWER IS PERSONAL.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

96. Oh were his aid or something?

You should write a book about your experience in working for Bush. Was it during his tenure as governor or Presidency?

[WinkyDink]

100. WTH??

Is there something about being RICH you think ISN'T personal??

Oh, I forgot; Bush is well-known for tax breaks for the wealthiest so that they can all donate $$ to the Food Stamp Program that was just cut by 700 million.

And wasn't your not-so-clever riposte PERSONAL?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

102. This is what you said

"HIS GREED IS PERSONAL.
HIS SICK QUEST FOR POWER IS PERSONAL"

I was asking if you were his aide or something, because it seems you know him personally.

[1620rock]

49. Right, we are VENTING!

:mad:

[NYC Liberal]

7. I think attacking attacking Bush, responsible for the deaths of thousands,

maiming of even more thousands, and the plight of millions, is a wee bit more justified than picking on the kid with glasses in grammar school.

Bush IS an asshole, and a moron, and countless other things as well, so I won't stop saying it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. I see

Please don't complain in the future if some freeper calls a Democrat a coward and etc. Because you just have lost the high ground

[NYC Liberal]

14. I won't complain, I'll disprove them.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

17. silently of course?

I mean if republicans call Michael moore a fattie like here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1515332/posts you won't complain right? Because that would make you a hypocrite because you just said that it was ok to call bush names.

[NYC Liberal]

21. Disproving an argument is not "complaining."

When I see wingnuts doing it, I'll just laugh at them. As they do at us. No complaining or whining about it involved.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

26. OHHHHH if it's true it's ok then?

Remember when republicans made fun of kerry because of that orange tan he had or when he was in that nasa suit. This is true because they had pictures, documentations, and etc. So it's ok to make fun of his appearance just because it's true? Excuse me, we don't call someone four eyes because he has glasses.

[NYC Liberal]

30. And how many wars has John Kerry started? How many people's lives is

he responsible for taking?

I feel no empathy for Bush whatsoever, and I will call him whatever I damn well please. I really do not give two shits about what Freeptards think or say about Kerry, or any other Dem.

I guess we should be nice and polite when talking about Hitler as well because, well, we should just "criticize his policy." Guess I can't call HIM an asshole or evil, right?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

36. Ahhh the Nazi card

How did I know you would bring this up? I won't answer that because you're trying to do what Tim Russert does, "those gotcha moments."

Wait so you don't care about negative ads? Remember when people used willie horton to assisinate max cleland's character. You don't care what people think after those ads right? I see. That is all I needed to know.

[NYC Liberal]

45. Did I compare Bush to Hitler? Um, no.

But you actually proved my point.

WHY can we call Hitler an asshole, but not Bush? Because he's killed more? Well then I can call Bush an asshole because he's killed more than Kerry.

Wait so you don't care about negative ads?

Funny, I don't recall saying that.

Remember when people used willie horton to assisinate max cleland's character. You don't care what people think after those ads right? I see. That is all I needed to know.

Since when did I advocate calling Bush a moron and asshole in campaign ads? In fact, if you'll recall, I said this below: I will call Bush what I want on this board and when I'm talking with friends. When I want to really convince someone of my position, I will use reasoned debate, facts, statistics, whatnot.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

48. Well we have to agree that we disagree

I follow Howard Dean, you can follow Rush Limbaugh.

[NYC Liberal]

52. Yes, if I'm not saying, "Yes, I think the honorable President Bush might

be a wee bit wrong about his Iraq policy and would it be OK if I made a few slight complaints?" then I'm "following Rush Limbaugh."

And "you're with us or you're with the terrorists"......right?

Clearly you don't understand the difference in speaking used while chatting on a message board, and while out campaigning. Do you think politicians talk the same at home and while making a speech?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

55. I diagree with what Bush said

about "you're with us or you're with the terrorists." He made it sound like this was only a black and white issue. It's bad policy because it alienates people. What he did was outrageous and wrong.

[NYC Liberal]

58. "He made it sound like this was only a black and white issue."

And yet....

I follow Howard Dean, you can follow Rush Limbaugh.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

61. oops

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2265799&mesg_id=2265948

[ProudToBeLiberal]

59. ...?

I'm just saying I follow civility. You even admitted that you don't care what freepers think. Rush Limbaugh doesn't care what democrats think and etc. Just noting the comparisons.

[NYC Liberal]

70. I care what reasonable conservative Republicans think.

The so-called "old-school" conservatives to whom Bush does not play. Freepers will not be convinced, and it is a waste of time to try to do so. In fact, planning your strategy around what ultra-wingnuts on FR think is what's REALLY unproductive here. You have to pick your battles; changing their minds is one you will lose, while you could be actually "converting" more reasonable Republicans.

Do you think calling Bush an asshole is "unproductive" (in that it inhibits Democratic candidates from working effectively) HERE, on DU...or on the campaign trail?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

73. I could say the same for independents

Do you think you can convince independents by saying, Bush is stupid! God Bush is fucking moron! or Bush is an Idiot!

I think a more of a civil dalogue will convice independents to be on our side. For example I disagree with Bush's policy when it comes to NCLB act because first of all it's an unfunded mandate. Second and etc,.

[NYC Liberal]

81. See this is the distinction I have been TRYING to make.

I specifically have said (several times) that when trying to convince others of our position, those arguments should NOT be used. Making remarks about how Bush is an asshole on a thread at DU is not counterproductive at all. This is a place to vent, blow off steam.

Say, for instance, you wanted to convince your boss of something. You wouldn't say he's an "idiot" when making your point to him; but you might when you get home say something like, "Sheesh, that guy's such a moron!" and that wouldn't be counterproductive at all.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

87. I have specifically said

that it's naive to think that nobody knows about this board. I bet many independents visit this board. I bet even journalist visit this board also. I think there were many instances where journalist quoted a message that someone wrote.

[NYC Liberal]

107. While I have seen a few instances of DU being quoted

(mostly by people like Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh), I hardly think it's a huge issue. Certainly not big enough of one to refrain entirely from calling Bush an asshole. I don't recall seeing DU being quoted on CNN, MSNBC, or the network news - that is where most people will get their news.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

112. How about on the situation room?

remember where they have the blog segment. If I recall they did show DU and talk about it. And the Situation room is on CNN. So your point is moot.

[NYC Liberal]

118. And has quoting FreeRepublic hurt Republicans?

I don't think so, so your point about the media quoting DU is the moot point here. The fact is, the problems with Democrats do not lie in people on DU calling Bush an asshole. The fact is, us doing so has not been the reason why Democrats have lost in the past 3 elections, and it has not been a major factor. Or even a small factor. In fact, people still do so now, and yet approval of Bush and the Republican party gets lower every day.

Democrats in Congress don't do it - they are civil and polite, but they are still accused of "playing politics" and "attacking without any solutions."

So your argument is wrong.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

120. from your mouth

"I don't recall seeing DU being quoted on CNN, MSNBC, or the network news - that is where most people will get their news."

So you are wrong

[NYC Liberal]

123. I notice you didn't respond at all to anything in my post.

Do you have any more arguments, or have you given up?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

124. I answered by showing your hypocrisy.

...

[NYC Liberal]

132. No hypocrisy in my post.

I responded to your post by stating that although there were instances in which DU was quoted, it has not had any effect on the Dems' standings. Care to respond, or do you acknowledge that your arguments do not hold up?

[snowbear]

60. NYC Liberal..

You don't remember saying it...

...Because you never did say it. (( :hug: ))

Sheesh "ProudtobeLiberal"..

[mitchum]

56. Willie Horton to attack Max Cleland???!!!

I think that you may be mixing up your decades (or centuries)
Apparently, I AM more coherent when I call bush a "drunken, murderous, piece of shit moron" Because he is.

[Al-CIAda]

129. Yes, this person knows not of what they write. -eom

[WinkyDink]

95. Yeah, Kerry DID look funny! What's wrong with humor?

It was a temporary condition, so what's the problem?

Gore looked mighty goofy, too, last time with his clown make-up!

[karynnj]

144. But he NEVER had the orange tan

there were photos from that day on the Kerry blog - and he looked liked always. A few days later there was the first debate - only one of the candidates looked weird to me then. And it wasn't Kerry.

[snowbear]

23. I wouldn't complain.. because I could care less what FREEPERS say!!

...or what they think.. or what they do.

This isn't Free Republic. I don't go there, and it's too bad some of the fuckwads imbed themselves here.

Sorry,.. but I will NOT click on the freeper link you provided.

:mad: Mr.Bush.DESERVES.IT!!! :mad:

[WinkyDink]

90. Apples and oranges, as they say.

"Fatty" is a pejorative having ZERO relationship to Moore's political values.

Calling Bush a MORON is BECAUSE of his political values.

Well, plus he's a pinch-nosed, beady-eyed, splotchy-faced little bastard.

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. His actions beg for descriptions like that. He's a natural for ridicule.

It's a gift he was born with.

[populistdriven]

10. Liar

[leftstreet]

11. Bush is a dumb loony idiot moran schmidtfaced momma's boy loser!

:hide:

[Warren Stupidity]

16. "we know better than to play with them in the mud stoops"

Yes indeed 'staying above all that' has worked so well for us as a strategy.
:sarcasm:

I'm sorry, I understand where you are coming from, but it is wrong. If putting the meme out there that Bush is a drunken idiot helps bring down The Cabal, I'm all for it. If questioning his intelligence spreads doubt and uncertainty across the land about his ability to lead: good.

Also - you have presented a false dichotomy. We do not have to make a choice between attacking him personally and attacking his policies. We can attack all of that and more.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

22. oh?

So when the Republicans call Murtha a coward, you won't complain right?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. what?

How do you get that from what I said? Getting down in the gutter does not mean that when some idiot on the right says something vile and stupid we should not say 'what a vile and stupid thing to say'.

Bush is clearly in over his head. He is the archetypal bosses son, the little rich boy pushed into job after job that he is unqualified for. Worse, he is an arrogant snotty frat boy, an immature and vicious person who, while wrapping himself in false piety condones political assassination of his opponents and has run the dirtiest campaigns in my memory. We should not help people to understand who this president is, who this self proclaimed 'War President' really is?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

31. Oh you went to yale for undergrand with him?

You seem to know him personally. I don't know him personally, but I do know what his policies are and what the consequences. are. So I really can't call him an arrogant snotty frat because I wasn't there to witness it.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. There are numerous accounts of his frat boy behavior.

No I do not know him personally. But again, you seem to be falling for Democratic Disease, this mysterious affliction that convinces our party that political campaigns should be lofty and stress Great Ideas and be a contest of Competing Great Ideas and that since we actually have Great Ideas and they just have lies idiocy and distortions, we will triumph in the free market of ideas.

Only it doesn't work that way. Campaigns turn on stupid things like Mike Dukakis's big head sticking out of a tank, like the 24/7 DeanScream tapeloop, like Kerry windsurfing while being tarred as a liar regarding his war record. But we should stay out of the personal attack mud because it us unseemly because we have Democratic Disease.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

40. woah woah woah

I said I was for MUDSLINGING if it was against their policies. I'm all for the South Korean Parliament ways, if it's attacking their policies.

[Tomee450]

133. I just don't understand

why you are so outraged. I don't care for name calling either, but today I just can't get excited about it. I have vivid recollection of the eight years of name calling by the Republicans during the Clinton administration. Perhaps you may have forgotten but Dan Burton called Clinton a scumbag. Clinton, his wife and daughter were also called other vile names. Even today, the name calling by the Republicans continues. And ordinary democrats are not spared as we are called traitors, communists, and worse. The name calling is worse,imo on the other side. I don't usually engage in name calling but can see why some people might do so out of sheer anger and frustration.

[AuntPatsy]

207. Of course I would for it's a lie, calling this pres what is the truth

is not lying, do you see the difference?

[tx_dem41]

24. The people I know that are "independent thinkers", roll their eyes..

at people who name call and cast unbased accusations. They then immediately shut that person out, like that person is a 4th grader as the OP alludes to.

What they do listen to are substantiated facts about the effects of bad, incompetent policy. So, in my observations, your strategy only galvanizes the Cabal.

[NYC Liberal]

27. So it's EITHER call Bush an asshole and moron, OR criticize his policy?

Bullshit. We can do both. I will call Bush what I want on this board and when I'm talking with friends. When I want to really convince someone of my position, I will use reasoned debate, facts, statistics, whatnot.

This isn't that hard.

[tx_dem41]

35. You can do whatever you want to. I was relating my personal

experiences and opinion (hence, the "IMO").

I'm just telling you what has been successful for me in the past, and what I have witnessed as being unsuccessful. You are perfectly free to ignore and discount my experiences.

[NYC Liberal]

62. I don't think we should call Bush asshole and moron when

trying to convince people of why the Democratic Party is the better party - whether that be friends or in campaigns.

When talking amongst ourselves here at DU, I don't see how it's counterproductive.

[tx_dem41]

67. I respect the distinction you are drawing.

One response is that we spend countless energy and time writing out such posts, where we could be talking winning strategy, organizing local and national activist campaigns, etc.

For example, why has the DU Activist Corps pretty much withered on the vine, yet the epithet-laden posts never wane?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

69. good point

more eloquent then I could have put it.

[NYC Liberal]

74. I agree that, yes, some do spend ALL their time writing long diatribes

simply about hating Bush. I'm not talking about that, though. I am talking mostly about calling Bush things like asshole, moron, etc. in most of the posts here. Obviously, for most, posting at DU doesn't affect their ability to effectively spread the "message"...it is that they CHOOSE to simply not do anything effective.

[tx_dem41]

77. We agree wholeheartedly on your last point n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

32. And yet the personal attacks on Kerry most certainly

derailed his campaign. How do you explain that?

The personal attacks on McCain damaged his campaign. Coincidence? Only works when they do it?

The personal attacks on Gore damaged him at the polls, why?

The infamous personal attacks on Dukakis, which he regally stayed above, destroyed his campaign.

How come it works so well for them but it doesn't for us?

[tx_dem41]

37. Its quite simple. There accusations are amplified by talk radio.

Which is childish as well.

Wallow in the mud for all I care. Just don't be surprised that all you accomplish is getting yourself messy.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. It is messy its politics it aint a debating society

And there is a lot at stake here. And we have been losing election after election by staying above all that while they launch attack after attack.

Gee, perhaps when you are constantly being kicked in the balls, perhaps you ought to consider that the rules are not being enforced and you should consider: a) defending against the groin shot; and b) breaking the other guy's leg.

[tx_dem41]

54. I don't get kicked in the balls.

I handle myself quite well in a debate. Even win over many people, or at least make them think.

How do you do with the "asshole/moron" strategy?

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Good question.

As I said elsewhere, it is not an either/or choice. Some situations call for noting what an asshole our Great Leader is, some call for lofty discussion about current events.

When gas was over $3 I found that public observations about the assholery of Dear Leader at the gas pump to perfect strangers had quite a charming effect.

What I am not going to do is refrain from observations of idiocy because I am above such nonsense, or because I am under some delusion that such attacks do not work.

[tx_dem41]

72. And, I am under no delusion about what works.

No one has "ordered" you to stop making epithet-laden attacks. People have just offered opinions as to their efficacy. That's what messageboards are about, no?

[Warren Stupidity]

76. The original assertion was

"personal attacks against Bush are unproductive".

I don't think anybody is ordering me to stop making such attacks. Instead the OP, despite all the evidence to the contrary, is of the opinion that they don't work. I find find that position delusional, contrary to reality, and I am attacking that position here. That is what message boards are for, yes.

[tx_dem41]

82. And I have stated that it is not contrary to my reality,...

which is not delusional, although you implied such an assertion.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. One last time.

Please consider the presidential campaigns going back to Dukakis. The Republican smear machine has gone after their opponents with personal attacks in every campaing since 88 and have done so effectively in at least three of them. Personal attacks work. You can provide anecdotal evidence that they don't work for you in your personal experience - fine don't use them, but the OP made a blanket assertion that they don't work, that they are in fact counter productive, and that flies in the face of reality and is thus delusional.

[snowbear]

38. Whooo Warren, you're on a roll !!!

((( )))

[ProudToBeLiberal]

41. two wrongs don't make a right-anonymous

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Fine

I give up. You are correct. We can be morally superior as they turn the nation into a theocracy and continue to murder foreigners by the thousands.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

50. You're ignoring the separation of church and state clause.

We can't endorse a religion or deprive someone from practicing a religion.

What we can do is be more productive and attach policies and not persons.

[Warren Stupidity]

71. "We can't endorse a religion or deprive someone from practicing a religion

I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that, but quite frankly it escapes me.

"What we can do is be more productive and attach policies and not persons."

And why can't we do both? And why shouldn't we do both?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

79. oh let me enlighten you

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

If you were wondering it's from the constitution.

You know how the official language of the U.S. is English right? The U.S. can't say that Buddhism is the official religion of the U.S. BUT the U.S can't say you cannot wear a cross to school.

[Warren Stupidity]

83. Is this in reference to anything?

Was it my remark that they are marching us towards theocracy? You think that is not their intention?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

88. you said

"I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that, but quite frankly it escapes me."

I explained what the separation of church and state clause was.

[Warren Stupidity]

97. What on earth does this have to do with this topic?

Why did you bring it up? I know what the separation clause is. Out of the blue you popped it into a posting of yours and it appeared to have no relevance to anything, other than my mentioning that the Republican Pary would like to turn this republic into a theocracy.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

101. you advocated that they can turn us into a theocracy

you said, "We can be morally superior as they turn the nation into a theocracy"

[Warren Stupidity]

103. That is the intention of the Dominionist wing of the their party.

Just how naive are you? Personal attacks don't work in your universe and it seems that the Republican Party does not have a major faction that is hell bent on theocracy. OK. I guess we live in alternate universes with an odd junction point here on DU.

Cheers!

:toast:

[ProudToBeLiberal]

106. I'm saying legally they can't.

It seems what you're saying is that "yes right now legally they can turn the U.S. into a theocracy." I would have to disagree. There is no chance that they would pass an amendment to get rid of the 1st amendment.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. I might seem to be saying that

or you might be putting words in my mouth. Of course they are not going to directly abolish the 1st. (Or rather what is left of the 1st as quite a bit is already gone.) No instead they are ignoring the 1st and at the same time trying to pack the courts with their cronies so that lawsuits against what they are doing will fail. Then in that likely near future your argument that you made for me that "right now they can turn the US into a theocracy" will be correct. They are currently one or two supreme court justices away from just that, and that is their intention.

So as I said, we can be quite the morally superior opposition party and stay above the fray and miss opportunities to destroy their candidates with personal attacks, while they continue to win elections by destroying our candidates. And we can slap ourselves on the backs for having fought the good fight while our own homegrown ayatollahs take over and while the overseas killing goes on and on and on.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

119. oh I see

let's say SUPPOSEDLY repubs practice election fraud, should dems do it to?

[Warren Stupidity]

121. that depends.

What would you suggest if the fraud continues and all attempts to put an end to it through legal measures are futile?

I'd suggest we start engaging in fraud.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

126. ...

Warren Stupidity (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-20-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. that depends.
What would you suggest if the fraud continues and all attempts to put an end to it through legal measures are futile?

I'd suggest we start engaging in fraud.


Warren Stupidity -- Karl Rove: traitor

[tx_dem41]

18. Amen. n/t

[Benhurst]

19. No, I think it's productive and necessary because of all the bullshit

which has grown up around the office of the president, serving to protect even a cretinous degenerate moron like Bush, who stole his way into the White House.

Obviously after his performance in China, he needs someone to show him the door out.

:popcorn:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. I guess we would have to identify

what our purpose is here in order to decide that.

Personally, I think of DU as rather "Democratic Playground" because so many of the posts are rather juvenile in that manner, which removes them from the ranks of serious political discussion and keeps DU in a whole category of its own in the online world. But there are other sites for the thoughtful approach.

Maybe not the most mature approach and we won't change the world, but it serves a purpose.

[Skittles]

25. I have had to put up with that piece of SHIT for over TEN YEARS

I WILL TRASH HIM ALL I F***ING PLEASE

[ProudToBeLiberal]

28. an eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind-gandhi

[NYC Liberal]

33. And how many soldiers have been blinded because Bush decided

to "shock and awe" Iraq?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

44. Don't know

But what I do know is that his Iraqi War policy is being detrimental to our troops. Like no armour, resources, and medical supplies.

[NYC Liberal]

46. Exactly. And his policy SHOWS that he is an a moron, asshole, and

a million other things.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

53. I disagree

That's like saying FDR 4 terms show him to be a wanna-be dictator or that his policies of Interning Japanese show him to be a fascist. I would hope that you would disagree with these sentiments of calling FDR names.

What we can do is say is FDR was wrong with the internment camps and it was bad policy that was hurtful to many people and etc.

[NYC Liberal]

57. There's a difference between chatting and venting on DU,

and what we should say in ads and speeches.

Clearly nobody (including myself) thinks Dems should get up to the podium and call Bush asshole and moron. When we're just chatting here, it's not "unproductive" because we're not campaigning for office on DU.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

63. It's naive to think

that reporters and other people don't come and browse this board. I'm pretty sure Michelle Malkin or some other conservative pundit has come here to browse what we're saying.

Most of all I'm pretty sure that there is journalist browsing through DU. This is one of the reasons why Skinner banned linking to conspiracy theory sites because it was unproductive and making DU look likes crazies.

[mitchum]

84. But Michelle Malkin IS a $5 right wing comfort girl...

just in case that loony bitch is browsing this thread

[ProudToBeLiberal]

93. I see, again personal insult

What she advocates is over the top. But insulting her? Come on...

[mitchum]

99. Only because punching her in the face would have serious legal...

consequences
It would be sexist if I said "backhanding her"

[ProudToBeLiberal]

105. I just hope you aint my daddy

I mean if your son was a conservative, would you punch him in the face OR insult him? OF COURSE NOT. You would say "son this is why I disagree with you and etc"

[mitchum]

109. A fact for which both of us are grateful

Look, we are just not going to agree on this point.
peace,
mitchum

[ProudToBeLiberal]

110. OMG CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IS WRONG

holy shit. Did I just interpret what you just said correctly? Would you beat your child with a belt? WTF. WOW!!!

[mitchum]

114. That reading comprehension section was rough going, wasn't it?

No, that is not what I meant at all. And I'm rather astounded you interpreted it that way.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

116. actually I did pretty well on my verbal section of the SATs

btw I thought you were leaving :P

[AuntPatsy]

202. Do you honestly believe such is possible with the majority of these

folks, I am sorry to say I have had my own personal run ins, I am guite timid as have many said time after time, these people literaly went balistic on me and my views..

Sorry, for the majority of them, common courtesty does not apply, I wish it did, I honestly do...

[NYC Liberal]

94. Michelle Malkin and the other right-wing loons (oooh! name-calling!)

will portray us as crazy and "extreme" no matter what they find here. They twist, distort, take things out of context, and plain lie until they make us out to be what they want us to be. Not calling Bush an asshole will help nothing. In fact, if Skinner banned such "name-calling," they would claim a "victory" and spread the word that "Even DU doesn't think Bush is so bad!"

[guidod]

135. TAKE A PILL ProudToBeLiberal!!!

Quit trying to make the river flow in the opposite direction. People are just venting because they don't have a voice. Go see a shrink. I'm sorry, is shrink to harsh a word for y ou?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

136. were you the one that called me fattie in 4th grade? nt

[guidod]

139. Probably! I'll tell you what you can do...

Go to the link that I put on here and read some of what they say. I went there yesterday and got a password just so I could say some nice things about Rep. Murpha. They were beating him up. They are the most vial bastards that I've ever listened to. After I finished posting some nice words they revoked my blogging privilages. My comment was on their blog for 15 minutes and then it was yanked. After you read some of their blogs yu'll see how pleasant Dems really are. All I did is talk about Mr. Murphas service record, not one swear word was used.

Welcome to the real world.


http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/login

[ProudToBeLiberal]

140. no thanks

It's people like you who supress fat people. Thanks a lot.

[guidod]

148. You're welcome. Just

do yourself a favor and go to the site and just read for 5 minutes. You sound like an intelligent nice person, you just have to get over yourself and let the wind blow you where it may.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

151. like I said I don't talk to bullies

Thanks for calling me a fattie when I was in 4th grade

[guidod]

162. Once again...

You're welcome. Are you a republican too, you love to stir the pot. Maybe you should smoke some for a change.

[tx_dem41]

172. I doubt PTBL is a Republican...(goes w/o saying)...

but I'm thinking someone is.

Hmmmmmm......check out my post #166.

One of the clumsier attempts.

I give it a D-.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

173. Yo

look at my profile. I'm college student, that would give you a hint on the mary janes hmmm?

Did it make you feel powerfull calling me a fattie in the 4th grade?

[tx_dem41]

166. "How pleasant Dems really are" !?!

Ummmm...don't you mean "Republicans"? Or is it just reflex to dump on Dems.

Be more careful next time when exploring. Slip of the lip (or fingers in this case) will definitely sink a trawling ship.

:rofl:

[guidod]

184. Okay...

I hope you're not trying to hang the "R" word on me. That would be the furthest thing from the truth. Unfortunately I'm new at blogging and one thing that I'm finding out is that it's difficult in telling when somebody is joking and laughing or when they're serious. I've been laughing through this entire thing all afternoon. If I come accross in any other way I apologize to you all.

[tx_dem41]

187. You made a very odd mistake in your phraseology.

I'm just trying to figure out if it was a mistake.

[guidod]

188. My one mistake would be..

what?

[tx_dem41]

190. I addressed it in post #166.

Care to respond?

[guidod]

195. I've read #166

several times and I'm still at a loss.

[NYC Liberal]

147. There's a difference between a 4th grader

and the president of the United States, and you know it. So your "argument" does not work.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

153. another antic from 4th grade-talk to the hand nt

[NYC Liberal]

157. Of course you wouldn't want to listen to anyone

who would disprove your "argument."

[capaylib]

168. I'll admit, I'd like to see that and I don't think I would care who

suggested it. Opponents of this administration get thrown under the bus all the time, at the very least I would like to see some go down swinging and cursing.

[mitchum]

64. But Gandhi also said that one must adjust one's resistance to...

the brutality used by one's oppressor. He said that what worked with the British would not have worked the Nazis. This is a sentiment which is always forgotten by those who reflexively invoke Ghandi as a rationale for "civility" Or maybe they/you are just ignorant of this?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

68. how does that relate to calling bush names? nt

[mitchum]

75. YOU are the one who said that we should not do what the republicans...

and their shills do. If they engage in vicious name calling and personal attacks, we shouldn't? You can scroll back up this thread if you have already forgotten the number of times you have scolded people for doing so.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

85. but

my post about the ghandi quote was adressing a person specific post. So how does your emplanation about Ghandi and the Nazi have to do with the discussion at hand?

[mitchum]

89. YOU are the one who reflexively invoked Gandhi to "prove" your point

all I did was offer up another point of view from him.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

98. but that quote fitted with what he said

for example let's saying two people are working together on a project and you pique "two heads are better than one."

[mitchum]

104. No, that quote was a "pithy" retort (which wasn't very pithy at all)

Surely, you didn't really expect to make an assertion on a message board and expect complete agreement? That would be naive. But then again...

[ProudToBeLiberal]

108. but yu made the claim

about Ghandi and the Nazi... not me. want me to link it for you?

[mitchum]

111. I will let the chronology of this thread comprise my reply

peace,
mitchum

[jobycom]

34. Well, when he gets some policies, we'll attack them. Besides, stupid isn't

an insult in his case. It's just description. Dumb, moron, idiot, lush, coke-head, etc... I won't call him a "bastard"-- he looks just like his dad.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. Good one.

:rofl:

[Cha]

125. I've never called bush

a bastard, either..he definetly from that tribe.

[mitchum]

42. Well, they're not as productive as physical attacks, but those...

are against the law.

[DELUSIONAL]

51. he is a nose picking creep -- and what he is doing is PERSONAL

[Cerridwen]

78. The "rushification" of political discourse

The name-calling from their side has effectively energized their base which appears to be largely comprised of "black/white," non-critical, and juvenile thinkers.

What has worked effectively for them is approx. 40 years of organizing their base through stealth campaigns which have put their non-critical, bot-like followers into judgeships, on school boards, and Secretaries of State to name just a few places where they've been able to influence important policies and elections. The "rushification" of discourse gets them to the polls and running scared to save ... something they're afraid of losing.

It appears that name-calling doesn't energize our base as we have a large contingency of critical thinkers who don't care to resort to the tactics of a playground bully and will refuse to play along when one of ours resorts to such.

Yours is a nice thought, though.






:hi:

[WinkyDink]

80. That's the beauty of free speech!

I'll call Hitler names, too!

[Paladin]

92. We Liberals Have A Right To Be Angry......

....and to express that anger in a pointed fashion.

The right wing fully expects us to wuss out and fall back on a bunch of Gandhi quotes, the whole "let's not sink to their level" thing. I call bullshit on that passive approach. We didn't get anywhere by politely disagreeing with Bush's policies, or acting like Ann Coulter's columns didn't matter, or laughing at Rush Limbaugh; things started turning our way when we began to accuse Bush of impeachable offenses, and when we started to refer to Ann Coulter as a man, and when we started hammering on the fact that Limbaugh is a scofflaw pill junkie.

If this fight is getting a little too rough for your delicate sensibilities, stand aside and let the rest of us take care of things. It's not going to get any nicer for the foreseeable future....

[WinkyDink]

113. Your argument is specious. But then, I'm looking up from the low road.

People ARE judged by their actions.
And if their ACTIONS are EVIL, GROTESQUE, MORONIC, DESTRUCTIVE, and HIDEOUS, then THEY get called the noun versions.

I'm sick of the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" New Age blather, as if somehow the "sin" was committed by a hologram version of the real person. UNLESS the sinner asks for forgiveness and is willing to perform acts of contrition. I don't recall Bush making such gestures.

Are you consistent? Do you forego calling anyone a POSITIVE name---say, "genius", "beauty", "Good Samaritan"---because those are LABELS and not actions?

[Arkana]

117. I'll do both, thank you very much.

George is a moron and a murderer.

[Warren Stupidity]

122. And his policies are moronic corrupt and murderous.

Coincidence?

[win_in_06]

127. Leno pointed out the other night

that does not say much about yourself to claim you've been duped (WMD,etc) by a guy you constantly say is an idiot.

[Al-CIAda]

128. I think this thread is 'unproductive'. I strongly advise

the OP to put me on 'ignore' so that he/she is not ofended at my bush bashing.

[name not needed]

130. Well, he IS a dumb idiot moron bastard ass.

:shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

131. What's wrong with a little bump and grind?

Every conversation in life cannot and should not be of substance. Making fun of president "is our children learning?" is part of our lives.

I find suggestions like the one in the original post wearisome. Do we really need to abandon name calling of Bush? Why?

And what is this nonsense that name calling is just for the 4th grade? I hope whoever wrote that gets cooties.

Making fun of Bush is hard. It's hard work. See ...

[skipos]

134. I agree. Name calling turned a few of my friends off when I

tried to get them to come to DU.

[Awsi Dooger]

158. Same here

Well, not a few friends just one. But she is very well educated and reasoned and could have made a contribution here. She gives speeches on civil rights as part of her job. But when she saw references like repuke in headlines she decided not to join no matter how much I tried to persuade her.

I write Bush or Republican or GOP, maybe freeper once in a while but that's just a shortened version of their website. The name calling doesn't bother me but I have no idea what it accomplishes. When I saw nicknames for Bush as a thread in the new research forum I thought that was low class.

[leesa]

137. The high road has been highly unproductive.

These are criminals and thugs we are fighting. We need to be street fighters.

[AnAmericanXX]

138. Im new to the site and have spent the last few days reading

many of the posts but i have to agree. GW is not a good president but if we spend all of our time blasting him and being full of hate and vitriole, what does that accomplish?
In the last two elections that we lost, I repeatedly heard people talkign about how the left had no real positions.
Shouldn't we be discussing more positions and actions on some of the important matters, rather than attacking the right?
We all agree that we don't want to be in Iraq, and sending our boys to fight in someplace we are hated. But what is the solution?
If we pull out of Iraq there will be genocide on a grand scale, and the US, irrespective of party, will be blaimed for it.
And what about terrorism? Personally I am in a quandry as to how we will aggressively fight terrorism. 9-11 was the most horrible thing I have ever seen in this country during my lifetime, and fear that it can happen again.

[snowbear]

141. Welcome AnAmericanXX... but....

AHHHHHhhhhhhHhhhhhhh... Another person trying to link Iraq to 911!! :wtf: :argh: :hurts:

[AnAmericanXX]

145. Im not linking the iraq invasion with terrorism...

but now that we are over there, and stirred up that hornets nest, there are alot more radicals wanting to shed American blood. Yes the war has spawned even more terrorists than ever.
I fear with our borders so wide open, how do we keep them from coming over here?

[guidod]

152. Don't let the Republican

fear machine scare you. 95% of the terrorists in Iraq are Iraqi's. Wouldn't you fight back if someone invaded our Country?

[AnAmericanXX]

156. Dam right I would...

but there are still alot of wacko radicals out in the world. It has nothing to do with the right wing propoganda, it has to do with other acts of terrorism around the world.
The 9-11 terrorists invaded our country and i didnt get the chance to fight back. They arent coming across our borders openly to fight, they are being sneaky and covert. I live near several military bases that would be excellent targets for some type of dirty bomb. That is what i fear, and want to know how our party will ensure that doesn't happen in our country.
Iraq is more of a civil war in my opinion, that has been continuing for centuries between Shia and Sunni.

[guidod]

160. Join the Marines...

When you join tell them you want to go to Afghanistan and fight Bin Laden. There's always been a bunch of wackos out there. The Bush Administration is the biggest terrorist of them all. All they want is Oil and Money. It sounds like you're a conservative starting to lean to the left. Welcome

[AnAmericanXX]

163. Unbelievable...

First off I am not a conservative starting to lien to the left. But im not blind to what is happening. I study religion extensively, Christianity, Catholism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. Try reading what the Islamic imams preach to the people.
As for joining the marines, 1)I broke my back when i was young and would be unable to do so, 2)I do not agree with the war in Iraq.
Just because im liberal doesn't mean i blaim all of the problems of the world on the right, that would be stupid.

[guidod]

164. You've posted 6 comments

and you're screaming already. Relax, relax, relax. Nobody is coming through the window to get you. You've smmoked to much pot.

[AnAmericanXX]

167. more insults?

I dont drink or do drugs thank you. And im not screaming, but dont go and accuse me of being something I am not( That is twice now, a druggy and a conservative). The problem i see with people on this site is that its a big blame thing and want to insult people. Its no wonder we lose elections. Issues people, we need to discuss the issues in a POSITIVE PROACTIVE MANNER. We will never get anything to go our way if we don't see this.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnAmericanXX]

171. So because this is important to me?

I cant possibly be a democrat? lets see, I support nationalised heathcare,gay marriage, abortion, affirmative action, minimum wage increases, unionized labor, and i am a "bushie"? Just because I am concerned about the future of our country, and see our biggest threat as Islamic Fundamentalism, that doesn't mean I am not a solid Democrat.
Frankly im disgusted with both parties in our country and think that they both fill us full of crap so they can be elected and don't really care what we need as citizens. I have the right to ask my party, and fellow democrats what we stand for.\

And reading back a few posts in this thread, some people state how the name calling and hatred turns some of their friends off from this site. I can see why. I am trying to contribute and find solutions to real problems, and basically im being slandered.

Reading the rules of this site, it specifically says do not slander or insult anyone, and here in my first day, i am being slandered by several people already. Unreal.

[tx_dem41]

178. Pssst...Neil...

widen your target a bit. Two birds with one stone. ;)

[guidod]

179. If I insulted you

I'm sorry. I'm only trying to get you to relax

[tx_dem41]

180. So you relax people by insulting them?

Interesting.

Very.

[tx_dem41]

181. Mr. Guidod...while you're here. Please respond to my post #166.

Very interesting phraseology that you used in your post #139.

Quite interesting.

[AnAmericanXX]

182. well i am passionate about our country

and the direction it is going. We have many problems to deal with that get pushed to the side, so people can point fingers and say look at the big Moron in the White House. Hes there. It sucks. Get over it. Maybe the reason we lost last time, even though we everyone knew he wasn't a good President, is we didn't spend our time on the issues. I watched all of the information being put out before election time, and listened to our candidates, and what i heard was how bad GWB is. Well maybe that isn't a good plan to continue. The American people want leadership and someone to point a direction for our country.
While I could never vote for Hillary, please note her derision of the President has diminished over the last year or so. She is not stupid, nor are her advisors. The American people are going to elect someone who seems to be closer to the middle.
The left needs to get this concept and create plans and strategies for the next election.
Each election our representatives publish a book stating their plan for America. How often do you hear about that plan in the media? Almost never. Even if you get the chance to see the candidate come to your town and speak in public, you are lucky if they talk about their issues rather than bashing the existing administration. This goes for both parties.
We lost last time because the right made Kerry out to be a flip flopper, and attacked his Vietnam record. So what did Kerry do? he defended himself and attacked back against Bush and his guard days.
That didn't work too well.
I want our party to get with the program and change the status quo with how they approach the elections. We want to be called progressives then be progressive, leave the old strategies behind.
If American's were polled to see what they thought of politicians, the majority would find them unfavorable, regardless of party. It would be nice if our party would take the higher ground on this, and remind our country that they are working for us.

[guidod]

191. Well said...

Bush reeled Kerry in like a fish. If it was an election between McCain and Hillary who would you vote for?

[AnAmericanXX]

193. In that case i would have to write in a candidate

I dont believe a word Hillary says. She is in politics for herself and herself alone. McCain is pretty close to center but still he is a right winger, and wouldn't get my vote. I would have to listen to the candidates to say who i would vote for.

[guidod]

197. Most politicians..

are in politics just for themselves. It's a world of BIG egos and large pockets. I don't think that I could ever vote for someone on the right.

[AuntPatsy]

200. Sorry, its not the reason we lost elections....diebold ring a bell?

[tx_dem41]

201. He/she cited the EXACT reason why we continue to lose elections.

I have a question, if you believe in the Diebold theory, why do you vote? Do you vote?

[AuntPatsy]

204. Yes I do vote and Yes I do believe in the Diebold theory.

And why I vote is because it is a right that many fought for me to have even if it does not count..I will not give up that right...

And your point?

[tx_dem41]

205. I wonder why you participate in a process that you believe is

fixed. Seems futile to me if you believe that.

[AuntPatsy]

206. Why is that so hard to believe? It is a right that that I enjoy,

believing it to be futile is a slap in the face for all those women who spent time in jail, were ridiculed, beaten and thought to be less than viable in their opinions..

There is a new fight now, one that needs to be fought which is of course ensuring my vote which I will not give up is counted...

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

[tx_dem41]

208. I understand quite well.

Ensuring your vote is counted and believing we lose because of Diebold are mutually exclusive things.

[Neil Lisst]

155. How do we keep them from coming over here?

If you're concerned about the "terrorists" in Iraq coming to the US, where are you getting your information, Sean Hannity?!

The "terrorists" in Iraq are primarily Iraqis, and they're not terrorists, they're people who live there opposing an invading army. As for those who are foreign fighters, they are thousands of miles from the US.

If you're worried about the border, then that's a separate issue, and a valid one. Bush is in charge of the borders, and his contributors like having a quarter of a million illegals a month come across the borders to take American jobs as cooks, janitors, construction workers, factory workers, and Walmart executives.

[AnAmericanXX]

161. Again I am not saying Iraqis have anything to do with

terrorism. And no i dont watch that quack Hannity. Arab terrorists from Saudi, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Pakistan organized in groups like Al-Qaeda, Islami Jeremiah, Hamas, Abu-Nidal, Hezbollah. They all hate us. They dont hate George Bush or the right wingers, they hate all non radical muslims and believe it is their mission to wage jihad against the infidels.

Frankly it pisses me off that many people of our party want to associate the fight against terrorism, with the war in Iraq. Personally I think it was the worst thing in the world to invade Iraq. Not simply because it was unneccesary loss of life for our troops, but because now the fight against the real threat, experienced on 9-11, and at other times, such as the African Embassy Bombings, or the USS Cole, is being associated with this action.

We have a problem with radical Islam on this planet whether we are in Iraq or not, and we need to do something about it. Please remember all of the dead people in New York.

[Neil Lisst]

165. Stop acting like you're the only person who cares about ...

... the dead in New York. How arrogant and annoying of you!

We're talking about foreign policy, not your need to show you bleed more for the dead than everyone else.

We're having a discussion, so please stop trying to claim some imaginary moral high ground. Your position is not made greater by mentioning the dead in New York, it's made cheaper. You're doing what Bush loves to do, which is use the specter of 9/11 to support your position.

The Iraq invasion (it's not really a war) was stupid. We have to get out. If you're concerned about all those real terrorists, as I am, then you must know that getting out of Iraq is the first step towards reducing the number of new terrorists.

[AnAmericanXX]

170. Well since I cant start a thread

I was trying to bring up the topic in this thread.
Yes we need to get out of Iraq. And then the elections come. What is the DNC position on handling the threat of terror? and the reason i bring up 9-11 is that people seem to think that once we leave Iraq, everything will be totally peaceful and happy again and nothing will happen to us.

So I ask you, once we get out of Iraq, what is our next step to fight terrorism?

[guidod]

142. A good day to be liberal...

Welcome to DU. They welcomed me yesterday.

[snowbear]

143. Hey guidod...

I welcome anyone who loves hockey! :hug:

[guidod]

150. Amen..

Go KINGS! O.K. I'll admit it, rooting for the Kings is as exciting as watching CSPAN. But they're both pretty interesting this year.

[Hypatia82]

146. It's perfectly acceptable...

so long as the one doing it is willing to get it in return plus 50 percent. And take it without complaint or cry of it being unjust. If you can stomach that, one can go for it. But you won't be making any friends or influencing people. Personally I think it's childish and stupid. Worse it's uselessly divisisve. There is no them, only us.

[Greyhound]

149. I make personal attacks because they are simply the truth.

As a human being he strives to mediocrity. He is not exceptional in any way. At the level he plays at, he is invariably the dumbest person in the room, least sophisticated, and usually the worst speaker. His person begs to be attacked!
Sadly, I believe these are the very reason so many voted for him.
:shrug:

[ailsagirl]

154. self-delete

[sendero]

159. You forgot my favorite..

.. "DictatorTot".

The fact that a moronic, self-centered, ne'er do well loser like George Bush could EVER be elevated to the office of the presidency of the US says something about America, and it isn't good.

As for not "descending to their level", well, that is why we have no power - you cannot fight them up there.

[LWolf]

176. What an embarrassing thread.

171 posts defending the right of one side to use the same juvenile bully tactics as the other. One side is "right" and is only telling the truth; the other side is "wrong" and is bullying.

So much for "being the change you want to see." Full speed ahead with "become your enemy in order to win."

[AnAmericanXX]

177. Couldnt agree more.

Lets use our intellect and our mastery of the english language to defeat our opponents. 10 years old kids sling slurs at their enemies because they have nothing better to say.

[0007]

183. Your so esoteric in an insipid way, I wanna puke!

In fact I think I will.
:puke:


[tx_dem41]

185. Cleanup on aisle 3!

:)

[0007]

186. Congraulations. Your the first to make my ignore list after

quite a few years here. I think you need to pay more attention to school, 'eh kid?

[bklyncowgirl]

189. But it is just so much fun--why deprive us.

You know what, ridicule can bring a leader down more quickly than long drawn out articles about policy differences.

Think Nixon and "I am not a crook" Ford's clumsiness, Carter and the killer rabbit, Bush senior barfing on the Japanese Prime Minister. These ridiculous personal traits inspired.

I'd love to defeat him on policy but ridicule works too.

[Hyernel]

194. I say: "ALL IN" on all attacks until they're all gone.

C'mon people. Karl Rove is just waiting for us to "play fair." It's how we lose.

Fuck that. Scorched earth until those neocon fucknozzles are sitting in prison.

WWtFFD?

/What Would the Founding Father's Do?

[tx_dem41]

203. "How we lose" is by ranting and raving and reacting to what the..

Republicans do...and offering no alternative solutions.

Why do you want to be passively reactive to what the Republicans do, instead of doing the really hard stuff and devising solutions to problems people are concerned about?

Nevermind...I know...its easier to say "fucknozzles". In fact, its practically mindless.

[No Exit]

196. Sorry, my friend, but NO MORE F**KING HIGH ROAD!

The high road has gotten us NOWHERE against these sleazy criminals. I want us to give it everything we've got. No holds barred. Whatever it takes. Bush must be stopped. The sooner the better.

[CatWoman]

198. I think preachy threads are unproductive.

[Neil Lisst]

199. Thank you. Here's what I like to say to such detractors ...

"Take it back to Montessori School, Teach, I don't like to use my INSIDE VOICE!"

The best way to get a rebuke from me is to wag your finger in disdain my direction.

[savemefromdumbya]

209. You're no fun!

policies? (wait, has he got any?)

[tirechewer]

210. Why Limit Yourself?

Why limit yourself to one or the other when it's so much more relieving to do both? It feels so good, like having a big purge after you've been holding contents under pressure, if you know what I mean.

It's not like attacking an innocent either. He puts himself out for it every time he opens his mouth. He has been a blight on America since he was first elected and it's not so bad to blight him right back.:nopity:

[pilgrimm]

211. I think it's appropriate considering his policies reflect his personality.

[The Magistrate]

212. Locking

Flame-bait, followed by a flame war.