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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:04 PM
Original message
Don't call me a racist (I'm not/you're going to)
but could we run to the right on immegration in 08? A lot of people I'm talking to on the web are saying they have no problems with legal immegrants of any color but they want serious measures taken on illegals. They're saying they'd jump GOP ship for this issue. We know the GOP stance is wishy-washy because cheap labor helps the corporations. We could make it "their" abortion problem, their gay rights wedge issue. Again, I'm not saying to nuke Mexico or do anything to legal immegrants. I also understand the farm labor situation and frankly have no idea how that would be solved. I just see an openning for us on this issue.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Run on punishing those who HIRE ILLEGALS...NOT
on punishing the immigrant/alien.

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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Agree complete. Something like a $10k fine per illegal hired...
and we'd be a long way toward solving the problem.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Right
something like this is fine.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. I agree but what is $10K to Walmart?
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. 10k per illegal...
If Wal-Mart hires 10,000 illegal aliens, that comes to $100 million. Even for Wal-Mart, that's a pretty big chunk of change.

Like anyother company, they'd doo a cost-benefit analysis, realize it's cheaper to just pay legal workers the prevailing wage, and go from there.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. Don't forget to tack on hard prison time for the bosses
who hire illegal immigrants. Fines alone won't keep them from trying.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Repubs are losing control of their "minutemen"
Border Activists Draw Line in Suburbs
The Minuteman Project extends its reach to a Virginia town to fight illegal immigration.


By Nicole Gaouette, Times Staff Writer

http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-na-daylabor28nov28,1,2490676.story?coll=la-headlines-business-careers

HERNDON, Va. — The cluster of middle-aged men and women dressed in jeans and sweat shirts, with cameras and video recorders at the ready, peered across the street. Tourists are common in the Washington area, but these people weren't looking for monuments.

The group, a newly formed chapter of the Minuteman Project, had its cameras trained on about 100 men gathered at an informal day-labor site in this northern Virginia town. When a truck or car pulled up, they snapped shots in earnest. The activists were there to photograph prospective employers, note license plate numbers and business names, and report them to the authorities, though it was unclear whether any official action would follow.

The Minuteman Project, controversial for its border patrols, is trying something new: looking to fight illegal immigration in the nation's interior by targeting employers. The group is organizing in communities including Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Indianapolis and Charlotte, N.C., monitoring and reporting businesses that hire suspected undocumented workers.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's In The Frame/Spin
something along the lines of enforcing US immigration policy & the guest worker program being too much like slavery
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. What's an "immegrant"? For that matter, what's an "openning"?
By "run to the right" do you mean enforce existing laws instead of ignoring them, or do you mean enact laws allowing vigilante racists like the Minutemen to patrol our borders?

As to corporations, they get most of their cheap labor by exporting the work to other countries.

Sorry, but the whole "a lot of people say" argument is a bit wishy-washy.

Notice that I didn't call you a racist.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. What's a "pedant"? n/t
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. When you attempt to convey a point and that point is diluted by blatant
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 12:31 PM by ET Awful
errors which detract from the message, you have failed in your attempt.

This is true especially when you have tools at your disposal to eliminate the issue.

See, I won't say a word if a simply typo occurs. I won't say anything about a simple grammatical error. But when a person repeats the same error over and over and makes no attempt whatsoever to use the tools at their disposal to fix the error, then their message is diluted entirely.

It never ceases to amaze me how lazy people have become and how accommodating others have become of laziness.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I didn't know about the spell check for quite a while
but then I just started using DU and made all sorts of mistakes at first too. People were nice to me and eventually I learned. Public embarrassment might work though. Now I need to spell check this. ooo, 3 words wrong. Oh well. I try to look at the message, rather than bashing the messenger.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. You don't need spell check. Just overindulge in anal-compulsive
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 01:18 PM by calimary
behavior like I do! :D :P :headbang:

Seriously though, this is one problem I don't have any good ideas about - yet, or who knows - maybe ever.

Living here in Southern California, I'm steeped in it. EVERYWHERE I see people who've come up from south of the border by whatever means, legal or otherwise, to work. They staff every construction project around here. They run the lawnmowers and leaf blowers in everybody's front/back yards. They're out there wheeling strollers with everybody's kids in them. They're out there walking and otherwise attending some elderly person who can barely get around. At night, in any 7/11 or Jack-in-the-Box or Taco Bell drive through, or allnight Savon Drug store or WHEREVER - there they are. They work in all the restaurants and hotels as servers, valets, busboys, box boys, dish washers, housekeepers, and more. They're all over the place. Anyone we encounter (when my husband and I are out grocery shopping or visiting one of those drive-throughs) is invariably friendly, polite, and quite talkative once they get an earful of my husband's gorgeously fluent Spanish - and his impeccable accent.

I don't know who is illegal and who isn't. The rare times when I get out to the lapidary supply to look at rocks and findings and a few beads and things, I see crowds of them on the corner, looking for day jobs. They're out on every freeway offramp and larger street corner selling produce or flowers. They're all working like gangbusters. I keep thinking of that Donna Summer song "She Works Hard for the Money." They're all doing a decent day's work - many times MUCH longer than the standard 8-hours/1-hour lunch routine.

These people keep our economy here alive. Legal or illegal. They do a LOT of jobs that "conventional" Americans don't or won't do, or maybe can't afford to do because these jobs pay so poorly and invariably don't include benefits, health insurance, or any of those perks that some stupid liberals won for all of us with their damned horrible icky commie Saddam/Osama-loving unionizing.

I know other people, conversely, who are part of two-paycheck households, in which both mom and dad have to work to keep the bills paid and the mortgage covered and the car payments and car insurance current. Their second paycheck usually covers what daycare or nanny services they can afford, and the shit pay they can get away with giving a nanny from El Salvador or Nicaragua means they have reliable child care they otherwise could not afford. Some of these parents do drive fancy cars and have nice lifestyles, and could well afford to pay more - but others DO NOT, and this is the only way they can make ends meet. Not everybody who takes advantage of this system is doing so - just so they can relax in that second home at the beach or in the mountains, or so they can get a new Mercedes when the Jag has to be turned in. I know people who own restaurants - and it's a family business, that usually involves both parents side-by-side with the people they've hired, maybe legal, maybe illegal. Mom's in the front being hostess while Dad's in back running the kitchen (or, more frequently in my experience, Dad's in the front being maitre d' and Mom's in the kitchen as lead chef - and usually runs a little at-home catering business on the side). Quite a few families at my kid's school earn their living that way. We eat well at all the Mother's Club meetings because so many of the mothers are caterers or co-own a family restaurant. These aren't big chains and big corporations, either. And I don't know that they could afford to run their businesses otherwise.

I do NOT know what to do about this. Those who brave the fears, the increasingly angry vigilantes, the rough terrain and harsh circumstances, and the ramshackle places they wind up renting if they're lucky enough to sneak all the way up here - need and deserve help and compassion. Who can find fault with the urge to build a better life for yourself and your family? I can't. And that means I have trouble condemning those here who hire those people because they, too, want to make a better life for their own families.

Of course, I must note here that none of the "employer-side" people I know run big sweat shops or are big corporate overlords, or are slumlords profiting off other people's misery. The people I know who do hire undocumented workers (or suspected undocumented workers) treat their people very well, pay them as generously as they can, help them out when they have a sick kid, load them down with outgrown kids clothes and shoes - often stuff that's hardly worn because the kids it all was purchased for grew too fast, pack them off home every day with extra groceries, and show them respect and courtesy at all times.

I do NOT know what the solution is here. Ordinarily I am quite the know-it-all blowhard around here. But this one stumps me. I'm uneasy about the vigilante business because it's born of anger and hostility and racism and violence, and it's very easy when you've got all that emotion bottled up - to let it flash out every so often. I abhor the sweatshops and the big businesses that cut corners and exploit undocumented workers. And because they - AND ALSO the mom-and-pop operations all over everywhere - offer employment (however crappy and poorly-paying it might be), there will ALWAYS be people trying to break the law and sneak up here. Perhaps the bigger enterprises that rake in huge amounts of money and think more of their stockholders and boards of directors than the small-business people who care more about month-to-month survival - and could well afford to do better by their employees - should feel more of the pain and shoulder more of the burden. But the bigshots aren't the only offenders here. And it's not fair to those who waited in line to immigrate legally and followed the rules.

I do NOT know what to do. I haven't seen a proposed solution yet that seems to work well enough for everyone, to the least detriment of everyone. Damned if I know what to do. I do know, however, that this is one of those issues I'm glad I don't have the responsibility to solve on a large scale. Because I wouldn't know where to begin.

on edit -

AW SHIT - ran on at the mouth again, and probably didn't add squat to the debate, much less offer any usable solutions... sorry. Perhaps that's one of the biggest reasons I love DU - people here actually tolerate this crap from me...
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. You do indeed know how to run off at the fingers, LOL!!
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 11:46 PM by 0007
I love it!

On a another thread I was told to use the spell checker cuz their were freepers lurking. No shit, I kid you not.

Here it is, I just found it. The word I misspelled was "thief"

Click here to read a real policeman
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. I turned on TV as bush was saying
under the guest worker program they could do the jobs that "Americans don't want to do."

I got so irritated I turned it off. As you noted we don't rush to these jobs "because these jobs pay so poorly and invariably don't include benefits, health insurance, or any of those perks"

So...that really is the issue. Hard work at rotten pay without perks or protection. There are many Americans who will and do work that hard even without great money, they need work.

But the employers might prefer illegal immagrants...because they can't complain about breaking employment laws for fear of being deported. They can screw them over, don't deal with workman's comp or overtime. Good deal for employers.

I don't know what protections the guest worker program would have, but if they made employers pay fair wages and offer all the same protections...then the argument that Americans wouldn't want the jobs is lost.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. This is actually funny.
Looks like you've had to go back to edit every message you posted on this thread.

Here's another correction for you:
"See, I won't say a word if a simply typo occurs."

'simply' is an adverb, and you wanted an adjective: simple.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.
:toast:
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Most edits I make are to add information. A single typo in a sentence
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 01:46 PM by ET Awful
is not the same as repeatedly mistyping the same word. Also, as I mentioned above, spell check does not catch grammatical errors. You did know that right?

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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Goddamn you're full of yourself.
I can sense your smugness from here.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. At least my response to criticism is a slight level above muttered
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 02:35 PM by ET Awful
obscenities. . . unlike some folks I could mention.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. haven't reports come out that ''illegal'' immigrants
don't have the effect on wages that were previously thought?

i'm not very excited about the issue of folks coming from mexico to here -- for whatever reason i just say welcome.

if they aren't law abiding -- they go to jail.

the culture between mexico and america is very close and blood and history make us even closer.

this is going to be a hispanic/latin dominated culture sooner than we all think -- and i think it's more productive to get on with coping with that reality.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I haven't seen those reports, although it wouldn't surprise me.
Of course, part of that lack of impact may arise from an overall decrease in income across the board (if you exclude CEO's and the like).
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Your comment on culture is apt.
the culture between mexico and america is very close and blood and history make us even closer.

Not to mention the fact that large swaths of the US were once Mexico. And not even that long ago.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Reports don't help the construction workers
I know that have to compete with the low wage / no bennie crowd.

I don't blame the immigrants. The employers, however, should be strung up and beaten with a bullwhip.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. i am absolutely one hundred per cent pro union.
and i believe that spreading the union word and working hard to increase the union roles is the very best way to combat this problem.

i have no issue with punishing wrong doing of employers.

but i am pointing out that this is going to be a majority hispanic/latino country very soon.

hand wringing and misspent anger at ''illegals'' is a waste -- and the cutlure between america and mexico melding is making -- depending on your view point -- this conversation a moot point.

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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I think we agree... I simply
hate the fact that the almighty 'report' doesn't seem to be dealing with the reality of life in this country.

What needs to happen is global unionism, much like the IWW has preached all along.

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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. So is it polite to nitpick spelling errors?
Now, they drive me nuts too, but since spelling isn't being taught in school anymore I don't point it out.

I also wonder how worthwhile it is to derail discussion and offend people with my nitpicking.

:shrug:
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Spelling isn't being taught in schools anymore?
That would certainly explain the problem. :)

As to derailing the discussion, anyone who read my initial post would realize that I actually addressed the topic at hand, after which I was told to "fuck off".
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. Immigration is the latest RNC "Divide and Conquer" Issue.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. You've got that right....
and a distraction from Bush's awful policies thus far....

However, it appears that it ain't helping.

Now.....back to the war!
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Price tag to deport (est $40 billion annually) can help nip in the bud
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 12:51 PM by pat_k
Earlier http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5469646&mesg_id=5469793>:

I'd only add that the price tag of actually "sending them all back" would be $40 Billion annually.... enough money to finance universal healthcare. Implementing Universal Health Care would probably help generate far more jobs than the 10 million estimated to be filled by undocumented workers.

Making it easier to achieve legal status looks better and better when compared to cost of deporting.

From Myths and Facts about Universal Healthcare:

"...The cost of serving the newly insured would be about $18 billion. The cost of providing additional services to the currently insured-due to elimination of co-pays and deductibles-would be about $46 billion."

BTW. Most people don't know that about 40% of undocumented workers entered legally. Their visa have expired, but many of these are in process of extending. They are in a sort of limbo state. The image of all our undocumented workers coming in illegally, over the borders, is wrong.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. That would be nice, but we're not going to
To solve the illegal immigrant problem, we have to go after corporate America. And neither major party is going to do that, after all it is corporate money that is the mother's milk of politics. Thus we witness another instance of the two party/same corporate master system of government in action.

This is just one more reason we need to fight like hell for publicly financed election campaigns. If we take corporate money out of politics, then we take corporate America out of government, and thus would be able to solve problems like illegal immigration. But until that happens illegal immigration will be the recipient of polite mouthings but no real solution.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
26. Frightening.....
there is NO such thing as an Illegal Human Being. I am frankly amazed to hear democrats even consider adopting a stance that means banning "certain" people. People come here out of desperation...let's remember that.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. I don't understand the farm labor situation. If they
payed the workers a decent wage wouldn't Americans do the jobs?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
35. "..."their" abortion problem..."?
:puke:

You might help democrats more if you were informed and strong on "our" issues.
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