A question on the economy: ?

[kentuck]

With all the great numbers about economic growth, do they include the humongous profits of the oil companies and their stockholders? Cannot the economy grow at the very top and the numbers reflect an overall growth rate, no matter if those at the bottom are getting screwed?

[orwell]

1. Be Careful...

...the economic numbers are "massaged" for a variety of reasons. It is unclear what the economic situation is in the US.

That being said, concentrations of wealth and power are never good in the long run.

[napi21]

2. They never give enough information to really judge what's happening.

Adding jobs doesn't mean anything unless you know what kind of jobs were added. My guess is that a lot of the jobs were retail, added for the holiday shopping season. GDP can still grow, even when all the jobs have been sent to India.

Something is very wrong when the overall numbers look good, but most people believe the economy is bad!

I might also add, wait till next year! GM & Ford both downsizing, Wachovia bank outsourcing lots of jobs....

Maybe that's why Shrub rushed out to brag about his great economy today...he's scared he won't have another chance for a very long time!

[readmylips]

3. Folks, Economy means the Rich doing better....

Poor people are putting their last dime in the pockets of the rich. This country has gotten pretty disgusting.

[depakid]

4. Even if you take the recent numbers at face value

Which I don't, btw- you can rarely if ever get an accurate look at a dynamic system like the macroeconomy by one set of figures.

In the longer term view, there's a reason why the the NY Times reported that the Bush administration can't find any respected economists who will work for them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/27/college/coll27view.html?pagewanted=print

[Neil Lisst]

5. How can the stock market be UP?

To the original poster:

First, your instincts are good. Behind the smoke and mirrors, the US economy is very tepid. The business markets are so thoroughly international and so thoroughly hedged that they can be showing improvement while a majority of Americans are not feeling it. That's the problem.

Second, the important factors are standard of living and disposable incomes. Since Bush came into office, the gulf between those that have much and those that have little has widened and continues to do so. If there are 100 wage earners in a town, and one gets an increase of $1,000,000 in one year, and the other 99 take a $10,000 annual hit in salary, the AVERAGE wage earner slightly improved in that year. So much for averages.

Third, the advance of interests rates and the negative creep inflation creates in the minimum wage are backdoor taxes on the working poor and the middle class.

In some rural parts of the country, one can hear the saying "them that have, gets." It's appropriate, it's populist, and it says it all here. The current administration is great for CAPITALISTS - those who literally have and control capital in large sums. It's a terrible administration for everyone in the bottom 2/3 of the economy.

[kentuck]

6. Those with the money have to put it somewhere...

...and I doubt it is the lower working classes investing their tax breaks in the market. The market is not an accurate barometer of main street.

[Caesarmajestic]

7. Biggest trend in economies.

Listen - trickle down economics is a sign of a dying economy. Please allow me to explain how our wealthiest are cutting their very own legs out from beneath themselves with conservative thought.

An economy is like a pyramid - if it has a sound base of poor people who are fairly prosperous, happy and well-fed, then it is good.

They will spend their excess, and this will be gathered up by people who wish to work harder and become even more wealthy. This is good. (Let he who is willing to work harder reap the benefits of what they sow.)

You do not need rich people to start an economy from scratch. You need poor people who maybe aren't so poor, because somehow they can turn out a little more from the Earth than they need. They will trade this excess for the excesses made by other poor people - and on every one of these deals, someone will benefit a little more than the other. This is not good or bad - it is a natural and logical mathematical statement.

As the person who benefits a little more becomes even stronger (in other words, as this effect plays out over time), they become . . . wealthy. They are able, in effect, to move from being part of the base to being a little higher up in the pyramid. This is . . . GOOD!!!

All, and I do mean all, great things come of this - the Great Wall, your favorite football stadium, the science of chemistry, physics etc, the arts, your education - these are all the result of prosperity. In other words, not everyone has to spend 100% of their time gathering food, making clothing and making shelter.

So as this pyramid is built up, great things for all are possible. But it collapses if it is not held up properly from the base.

Now, no one really wants to be at the base. When I was younger, government employees wore K-Mart white shirts with bad ties. Now they all look like Calvin Klein. They were at the base, slightly above the line that started the middle class. Same as teachers, police men, firemen, etc.

There are too many of them to go at the top of the pyramid. But no one wants to be at the base. But if too many move up, there is no base, or rather the base is redefined. 'Cost of living' raises simply raise this bar, each year. Does your job have these annually so you can keep up?
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Anyway, all this discussion is like looking at it from below. Now let's look at it from above. To do that, I say that you need to evaluate one simple thing if you are a wealthy person. You have to know if your policies are making the following statement more and more true OR less and less true:

Every year, poor people are less and less able to afford the goods and services provided by companies owned by the rich.
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If the statement becomes more and more true every year, then your policies are trickle down economics - you are presiding over a dying economy, you are cutting your legs out from under you. If you are wealthy and you allow the base of your economy to erode, then when they fall, you can bet your ascot that your ass is right behind.

If the statement is becoming less and less true, then the wealthy of society are quite simply put, going to be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. It will be easy for them to pick the apples off of this very robust tree. It will be a pyramid with a sound, solid base.
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We have been running in trickle-down-economics mode since you met Ronald Reagan (at least). Now, the base has been eroding for many years. Without your help, soon comes the fall.

Remember, if you want a robust economy, make the following statement true:

Every year, the poorest among us are more and more able to afford the goods and services provided by companies owned by the rich.
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One side note - whether or not you beleive in secret societies, you must at least see the logic in saying that the wealthy generally do not hang out with McDonald's fry cooks.

Since it is more likely that they hang out with each other, one must conclude that they make plans with each other.

So what is it that they would say when the look at certain trends like an always increasing population coupled with a flat-lining availability of natural resources?

If you are poor, but would like to give your children a gift of prosperity, try only having one baby to give your stuff to when you and your spouse die. The opposite is that maybe you have 13 babies to divide the same stuff up among.

So I beleive the rich secretly collude to start wars, famines, plagues and death for the poor whenever population vs. resources problems come up.

It is unfortunate, when it would be so easy to sell prosperity as I have said above.

Happy thinking . . .

[TexasLawyer]

8. Borrowed money

The numbers don't reflect the fact that huge amounts of federal money (e.g. from FEMA) is flowing into the economy. Essentially, all this money is "borrowed" through the sale of treasuries and the bill is tacked onto the US national debt.

Anyone can look good with borrowed money. But that way of life can't be sustained over the long term.